911 Scholar for 911 Truth shot dead...

[PuraVidaDreamin]

Coincidence?

Zebuhr was shot in the head in the 3100 block of Girard Avenue South around 10 p.m. Saturday.

Police said Zebuhr was walking to a parked car with family members, when robbers approached them and demanded his mother's purse. She gave it to the gunmen without any resistance. One of the men then shot Zebuhr.
http://wcco.com/local/local_story_080101653.html

http://www.st911.org/
PERSPECTIVES
Michael Zebhur Scholor for 9/11 Truth
1981-2006
If you want to help out Michael's family, a fund has been set up to pay for the medical expenses associated with his death: "Donations for the Michael Zebuhr Memorial Fund are being accepted at TCF Bank, 612 Washington Av. SE., or at any TCF Bank branch. Cards and condolences can be sent care of the Zebuhr family to Poling-St. Clair Funeral Home, 95 S. Kanawha St., Buckhannon, WV 26201. In addition, a scholarship fund in his name is being established at Clemson University. Donations can be sent to the Clemson University Foundation in care of Michael Zabuhr, P.O. Box 1889, Clemson, SC 29633.

[texpatriot2004]

1. "Robbers" my ass nm

[TechBear_Seattle]

6. It certainly doesn't sound like a robbery gone bad. n/t

[The Backlash Cometh]

16. Doesn't it remind you of the guy who went on a jog and was beat up,

but the police thought he had a heart attack so the poor guy got poor medical attention and died?

[uncle ray]

28. they thought he was passed out drunk.

[The Backlash Cometh]

84. Oh, God. It's worse than I remembered it.

[0007]

51. Do Robber's shoot their victim after getting what they want?

[file83]

63. Exactly - why would a purse robber want to murder someone? It only

draws more attention to him. This makes ZERO sense.

[Jim Sagle]

160. And maybe that's WHY the cover story is so bogus.

They want us to know.

They want us to know they know we know they're guilty of 911. They want to rub our noses in it.

[file83]

65. Not to mention - would they leave a WITNESS (his mother?) to the murder?

[stickdog]

89. Twice, in the forehead, in a nice, crowded neighborhood???

[goforit]

120. Wasn't Justice Souter attack by robbers?...Follow the finger prints and

you WILL find your murderers.

Notice how Poppy Bush/Chenney have their crimes committed the
same way?

A great detective would set them up and catch them in the act.
If only we had a great detective a next one on the murderer's
list to volunteer for the set up.

Hollywood style.

By the way all DUrs are scholars of 911 mihop!

[havocmom]

2. Is the BFEE Motto: If you can't convince 'em or buy 'em, shoot 'em?

:shrug:

[stop the bleeding]

3. I wonder if the murder(s) will ever be found

so sad

[EFerrari]

13. I wanted to post a joke but can't. This is very sad. n/t

[DemInDistress]

167. 911 humor and very apropos..

The Official 9/11 Truth Joke Book

George Bush returns to Booker Elementary School to talk to the kids to get a little PR. After his talk he offers question time.

One little boy puts up his hand and George asks him his name.

"Stanley," responds the little boy.

"And what is your question, Stanley?"

"I have three questions. First, why are you President when Al Gore and John Kerry got more votes? Second, why did you just keep reading that book about pet goats? And third, why was Cheney there holding your hand and the Commissioners weren’t allowed to take notes?"

Just then, the bell rings for recess. George Bush informs the kiddies that they will continue after recess.

When they resume George says, "OK, where were we? Oh, that's right: Question time. Who has a question?"

Another little boy puts up his hand. George points him out and asks him his name.

"Bobby," he responds.

"And what is your question, Bobby?"

"Actually, I have five questions. Why are you President when Al Gore and John Kerry got more votes? Second, why did you just keep reading that book about pet goats? Third, why was Cheney there holding your
hand and the Commissioners weren’t allowed to take notes? Fourth, why did the recess bell go off twenty minutes early? And fifth, what the hell happened to Stanley?"

[MadMaddie]

4. I am going to put my conspiracy hat on....

The administration is in deep trouble...would they take out persons deemed threatening to to them?...

Yea...I think it is possible!!!:tinfoilhat:

[savemefromdumbya]

9. probably

[Raster]

24. No conspiracy hat necessary. I am sick and tired of people grasping at

coincidence every time there's another incident involving a critic or perceived enemy of bushco*. Wake up and smell the goddamn coffee! These people are evil bastards and will do WHATEVER IT TAKES to reap their obscene profits and keep their criminal asses out of prison. When it comes to the bush* family evil empire, there is no conspiracy theory. More often than not, the theories are founded in fact. Would they kill? Hell yes they would. Again and again and again and again.

[Slit Skirt]

25. would they kill.............?

they already have.

[Grateful for Hope]

100. And they have

again and again and again

[Mnemosyne]

171. Truth! n/t

[shance]

27. There was another person conveniently mugged and killed recently.

Does anyone remember? It wasn't too long ago.

[Tuesday_Morning]

164. A reporter from the NYT

He worked out of DC...don't remember his name.

[tanyev]

5. OK, I got a queasy feeling in my stomach just reading this.

Anyone else?

[helderheid]

10. yes...

:scared:

[file83]

57. I'm feeling it too.....

[savemefromdumbya]

7. That's what happens when

or they try to run you over on the street

[MrPrax]

8. Bit of a stretch,no?

It certainly is tragic and the shooting itself, unusual...but then again so was the recent Seattle shooting...inexplicable.

BUT the law of averages tends to mitigate against a 'conspiracy' at this point...check out the About Us page at the Scholars for 911 truth page...they got 60 or more people listed...and that's just one 911 group!!

Don't slap the tinfoil fedora on just yet... :eyes:

[raccoon]

14. Could be a warning to the others to let sleeping dogs lie. nt

[Dhalgren]

15. You're right, but of the bunch Zebuhr was one of the most vocal

and most active. And remember, a political assassination is not just a murder, it is also a message...

[file83]

67. You're right. He's a leader. He stands out.

He's one of the biggest potential threats in that group. It's military strategy to kill officers if they can. Kill the heads and the body will die. Look at JFK, MLK, Malcom X, RFK...

[stickdog]

90. What are the odds that one of 60 people will be shot in the forehead

twice by a complete stranger with a partner for no apparent reason on a busy city street on the busiest night of the weekend, and both perps will make a clean getaway in a waiting car before any witnesses can even get a good enough look at them to give the police a decent description?

[myrna minx]

148. I need to make a correction.

31st and Girard is adjacent to one of the busiest intersections in the city, but that part of 31st Street is quieter than Lake/Hennepin, which is extremely busy most of the time. 31st and Girard is behind the shopping mall, Calhoun Square, whose main enterence is on Lake and Hennepin. On 31st and Girard, there is an entrance to the parking ramp for Calhoun Square, but other than that it isn't as "busy" as one might think. There is traffic that will turn right onto Hennepin (one short block west of the murder site)from 31st Street but it isn't as well lit/busy and the area suggests. I have friends who live right on that street. We have had countless conversations about the rise in crime in the area and how easy it is to go one block south of Lake street to find quiet, not well lit residential areas prime for people to be mugged on their way home from the Uptown Bar or the Lagoon movie theater. Where he was murdered is the place where people try to find street parking instead of going into the various parking ramps/lots in the area.

I can't tell you how upset the residents of Uptown are about this. Vigils have been held and people have taken up neighborhood watch patrols.

What I find troubling is that no description was given about the perpetrators. My friends and I were menaced by folks in a white car the night before in that same area and around the same time, but without a description, I don;t know if it pertains at all. In addition, the local news reporting about this has all but dried up. This level of violent crime just doesn't happen in Uptown, but the rise of muggings, car theft and burglary has. This is so very troubling. I don;t know if this helps. It is just a perspective of someone who lives here.

[stickdog]

149. It helps a lot. When was the last time any random attacker shot

dead any random victim in this neighborhood?

[myrna minx]

150. Never, to my knowledge and I've lived in Uptown for some 16 years.

Homicides just haven't happened in Uptown. There was a fellow who tried to rob a check cashing place ten blocks north last summer. He was shot and killed by the police which was a very big deal. Oh, believe me there are plenty of homicides in Minneapolis, but just not in Uptown. I recall a man was stabbed due to a bar fight outside of Lyle's Liquor Bar 10 years ago (in Uptown). People still talk about that. I'm torn by all of this. I know crime is on the rise, so it seems possible that a random killing could happen, but this situation just has me confused.

[stickdog]

151. That's what I figured. Thanks.

I don't know what to think, either, but it sure seems very strange.

[dflprincess]

152. The reason Don Shelby gave for no description of the perps

(Note for those not in Minnesota, Don Shelby is an anchor on the local news). Apparently, one report got out in some of the local media that the shooting was done by two Somali males in their late teens to early 20s and that's the only description that was given. According to Shelby, WCCO chose not to repeat the description (and he did this report without repeating it) because it was too vague and there was no reason to make every male who fit what little description was given a potential suspect in the eyes of the public. I find this excuse odd as I know there have been times when only the sex, race and approximate age of a perpetrator has been broadcast.

I imagine the local reporting has dried up because there's nothing new to report and they don't want to scare people away from Uptown. My niece and her friends have had some hassles when they've been in that area recently, her opinion was that it's getting as bad as Block E. It could be that some of the less savory members of our community are just expanding their area of operation. Uptown would certainly provide some promising victims if the crime is robbery. And, while a shooting like this hasn't happened in Uptown before, it has happened other places. Remember a year or so ago there was a woman killed in New York in a similar situation? She and her fiance were out with a couple friends, they were robbed and for whatever reason, she was the only one shot. (I think she was from here originally so the local media made a deal out of it.)

[myrna minx]

153. Thanks dflprincess.

It makes sense that the media wouldn't want to frighten people away from Uptown, especially since the new condo development that is about to take place over Calhoun Square is trying to sell units. I wouldn't say that Uptown is getting as bad as Block E, and I do feel safe here, it's just when there is such a rise in violence in a relatively peaceful place, it makes one more aware of their surroundings. Hell, I was mugged 1/2 a block away from my home back in 2001, so it's not as though Uptown was ever crime free. Even after that mugging, I wasn't fearful of the area, but murder does chill the blood.

[stickdog]

154. Why was he shot in the head twice?

Because I just can't get over that. Why shoot a bystander in the head twice for no reason AFTER you've already successfully stolen what you wanted to while leaving a slew a other witnesses unscathed unless you're a pro?

Here we have:

1) a neighborhood that has NEVER seen a remotely similar crime,
2) a decently large group rather than an individual or pair targeted,
3) an at least reasonably busy street location on a busy weekend night,
4) a murder committed for no discernible reason relating to the supposed robbery,
5) a "double tap" to the head of a single bystander,
6) assailants who commit a single senseless murder for no apparent reason in execution style while ignoring all other witnesses,
7) execution-capable purse snatchers working in pairs with a waiting get-away vehicle,
8) no descriptions or photos of the perps despite a reported slew of nearby security cameras and witnesses, and
9) no reported suspects or leads almost two weeks later.

Did the assailants actually look Somali in any way, shape or form? Were they black or white or something in between? Why don't we even know that much?

[dflprincess]

155. Stickdog, I'm not saying there isn't something fishy here

I was just trying to answer some of Myrna's question with what I'd heard on the local news, I didn't mean to sound like I'd made my mind up. It's not impossible this was random, but it's also not impossible it wasn't. I honestly don't know what to make of this and will keep an open mind. Though, I'll admit, Fetzer's opinion does carry some weight with me. (Please note, I am in the MIHOP camp and I would put nothing past Bushco).

[stickdog]

156. I trust your judgment on this, and I'm keeping an open mind as well.

What's Fetzer's take on this and where did you come across it?

[dflprincess]

157. Fetzer's take is at this thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=125&topic_id=79385

[stickdog]

163. Thanks. (nt)

[myrna minx]

165. Here's an update about the murder...

http://www.kare11.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=122403
Car sought in Uptown murder found burned

An explosion that rocked a Brooklyn Park neighborhood about 10 p.m. Wednesday turned out to be from the getaway car in the Uptown Minneapolis murder. Police says it was apparently purposely set on fire.

One nearby resident, who asked that his name not be used for safety reasons, said, "we heard an explosion, it was enough to shake the house." The resident ran from the house and saw not only the car in flames but, "I saw a black car take off speeding and the neighbor down the street said he saw him shut his lights off and take off."

The description of that vehicle aided police in tracking down that car and arresting the two adults inside, a male and female. "We believe the man is related to one of the suspects who is wanted in connection to Michael Zebuhr's death," said Minneapolis police Lieutenant Lee Edwards.

[myrna minx]

166. Here's another blurb from a few days ago...

http://www.kstp.com/article/stories/S15281.html?cat=1
EXCLUSIVE: Internal police memo details leads in Uptown murder investigation

What's very sad is that another man was shot and killed downtown Minneapolis, too.:cry:

[myrna minx]

168. There were arrests for the murder of Michael...

http://wcco.com/local/local_story_096132342.html

Two Teens Charged In Uptown Murder Case

Snip
Prosecutors alleged that Johnson was the shooter while Jacobs was charged as his companion who drove the car and participated in the robbery.

According to the criminal complaint, Zebuhr's mother, Susanne Strong, told police they were approached by two black males on March 18. Strong said one of the men demanded her purse and took it off her shoulder. She said the other man, who was the taller of the two, then shot her son in the head before fleeing.

One of the items in Strong's purse was a cell phone, which was later located in a garbage bag behind a Columbia Heights, Minn. residence. Police said a fingerprint on that phone matches Jacobs'.
snip

MOre...

[TNOE]

11. Interesting

and very very sad for the family. There are way too many people who are aware of 9/11 now - can't kill them all, although it could be the "warning shot", but too late in the game now for that. With the CNN poll at 83% - they should know the game is almost over.

[grasswire]

12. another for the Bush Body Count (eom)

[mmonk]

17. I'm not wild about security cameras, but I'm glad

they were in the area. It provides a better chance homicide detectives can find the perpetrators.

[Cleita]

23. I used to hate being surveilled. I mean what if you pick your nose

or scratch your ass when you think you are alone in that aisle? It would be embarassing, however, the cameras have worked both ways benefitting law enforcement such as in cases like this. I hope they hide that tape so no one can get hold of it and destroy it.

[stickdog]

91. Why hasn't a security camera picture of the perps been released?

I'll give you three guesses ...

[Katherine Brengle]

18. Stinks to high heaven...

[Cleita]

19. Smells like a hit doesn't it? Why shoot someone who offers

no resistance? And if they were robbers, wouldn't they have asked the men for their wallets?

[RufusEarl]

20. And wouldn't they have shot everyone?

so no one could give a description, just asking!

[file83]

68. Further more, why would a purse robber turned murderer leave a witness?

Leaving a witness (his mother) only makes sense from the stand point of a hit - to let someone live to TELL THE STORY of the purse robbery - that is part of the "cover story".

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

21. Mhmm...

[lostnfound]

22. Yeah, an "aberration"

[rman]

26. crap

[Norquist Nemesis]

29. "this is not the norm for around here."

:tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat:

[file83]

61. Yup. The Police Cheif said, "this crime is an aberration"

So, what kind of purse robber get's what he wants and then executes only 1 person? Why make yourself a murderer and draw more attention to yourself AFTER you already got your "loot"?

This was an assassination straight up.

[Anarcho-Socialist]

30. There's some real flawed logic deployed in responses above

Do left-wing people have some sort of immunity to being killed by street criminals?

The logic deployed by some respondants in this thread would appear to offer that viewpoint.

If someone who dislikes * is killed in a robbery, there just *has* to "Bushco involvement"? That's just dumb.

Think, people.

[newspeak]

34. okay, I'm thinking

of a brave journalist named Daniel Casolero who apparently committed suicide after meeting with an informant. Officials said the wounds to his wrists were so deep, that there were questions to his suicide. So tell me--murder or suicide?

[Anarcho-Socialist]

36. and that is linked to this incident how? n/t

[newspeak]

41. that is linked by way of poppy Bush

in the Octopus (coined by Casolero), the Iran-Contra, BCCI scandal that have deep roots in this administration. Poppy's players are back in the game with this administration-Negroponte, Poindexter and others. I am asking is it random or a hit? We need a little time to see how it fleshes out. Did he put up a struggle during the robbery or was he the only one targeted by the robbers? However, I do not put it pass individuals who have known to murder when they deem necessary. Oh, and how about that driver's license tech who was killed by being run off the road? You remember the one, don't you? The one that allegedly issued the DLs to the 9/11 terrorists? Pretty damned coincidental, isn't it?

[Anarcho-Socialist]

44. Linking this to Iran-Contra et al is frankly bizarre and laughable n/t

[Monkey see Monkey Do]

49. But Cap Weinberger died today - coincidence?

[motocicleta]

52. what are you worried about? That left wingers will be painted as

illogical? Put away your guns: I think they've already accomplished that frame. What damage can this curiousity do?
Why are you so concerned about our reputation?

[Anarcho-Socialist]

77. I'm worried about the (lack of) critical thinking

Critical thinking comes a distant second place behind jumping to far out conclusions. Some on this thread have attributed this tragic death to a "Bushco conspiracy" without a shred of evidence, that is what concerns me. Although if those people wish to chase shadows it is their business, it's just sad that this man's tragedy has been turned into a freakshow for conspiratory conjecture.

[motocicleta]

81. your concerns are duly noted. Thanks for your kind-hearted concern

However, my point is: it is not without evidence. It is without hard evidence, but circumstantial evidence still counts. If you evaluate that circumstantial evidence and find it lacking, that's one thing. If you just dismiss the evidence without proper examination, that's another. You'll have to decide which you are doing, but by coming in here and rudely accusing us of being irrational, you hurt your ability to make your point.

[stickdog]

93. LOL.

Your concern for both our critical thinking reputation and the victim family's anti-conspiracy sensibilities is truly touching. Of course, the victim himself believed that 9/11 was an inside job. What did that show about his critical thinking skills?

[newspeak]

53. I didn't say it had to do with Iran-Contra

I said the same players are still around. I'm saying I don't rule out anything.....get it? It may be a happenstance event-robbery went down and he's a victim. However, I do not rule out a hit. I responded to you because maybe I'm a little tired of the "oh, that's just ridiculous, ya'll are a bunch of conspiracy nuts" people attempting to ridicule others for their questioning. It is all right to question what really happened--there is nothing wrong to surmise what happened. There is nothing wrong to dig up as much information that you can and question the result.

[motocicleta]

58. Bingo. Zebuhr may have been killed during a garden

variety mugging - it happens. If that turns ou to be the case, I won't be surprised. But what's the problem with asking these questions? It is not illogical to assume people who had a hand in 9/11 might wish to silence dissent. Obviously, we don't KNOW that 9/11 was a big plot like 911 Truth suggests, but if they are right? It's not strange to draw the next conclusion.

And I too am tired of the "don't be ridiculous, dear" responses. We've all heard them, ok? You're not introducing anything to the debate. You want to bring something new to the table, fine, but don't come in here on your logical high horse and tell us we're idiots, without providing some flimsy shred of evidence that we're being illogical.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

62. Go get 'em, Newspeak! I know exactly what you're saying....

...it's the same M. O. that's been used by the Far Right for the last several decades to silence people that get too close to the truth. Suspicious deaths that never seem to get solved, or if they do get "solved", some patsy gets killed or sent up the river for life without parole.

IMHO, people who don't understand this are either terribly naive or fools.

This is NOT the "apple pie" America that everyone learns about in elementary school.

[rman]

76. Actually, it's the same network

of corrupt individuals that was involved in Iran-Contra, Bay of Pigs etc.


see

JFK II: The Bush Connection
http://madcowpolitics.com/jfk2bb.wmv



(2nd ad-hominem of yours)

[carlvs]

37. Come on!

If the right could claim that the death of anyone who had some involvement with Clinton during his presidency was because of some sinister conspiracy on his part, why can't the left do the same to one of theirs...:sarcasm:

[stickdog]

94. Exactly! Just look how the right was marginalized for THAT idiocy!

:eyes:

Here's your logic: Because the people the Nazis accused of setting the Reichstag fire might be innocent, so must Hitler?

[motocicleta]

47. why don't you think about this:

if the people who perpetrated 9/11 were in fact who the 911 truth movement thinks, would you change your opinion of a pretty bizarre murder? Or do you just not think it's a bizarre murder? To me, 10 o'clock at night, out with my family, pretty much anywhere in the US, my mom hands over her purse then I get shot in the head, but not the rest of the family? That's strange. Maybe I don't have enough fear walking around at night, but most of the anecdotal violence I know of occurred to single people, usually around bar close time. I don't think I've ever heard of a family being targeted in such a fashion. Certainly not in a probably not too scary area.
So if it is a bizarre murder, don't you immediately consider why that guy might have been targeted?

I'm sorry, but I fail to see your argument for flawed logic. Perhaps you could elaborate more than, some people think leftwing people don't get killed in street violence. That might work a little better than just insulting the posters.

[carlvs]

56. Why should he?

Considering how much crap is thrown in the face of anyone that openly states that he does not agree with the BS that the conspiracy mongers on this site spew out day after day - even if they give rational, scientific explanations as to why they disagree - I think he is being rather kind...

[motocicleta]

59. All I see is crap being thrown in the 'conspiracy mongers' faces.

Perhaps you could elucidate, or leave it to people who care. If you're only goal is to scream, "you're crazy, you're crazy", then yeah, you're gonna get some crap thrown in your face.

[stickdog]

95. Sorry, but that's not an argument; it's a snivel. (nt)

[oasis]

55. It seems the family members with Michael did have "immunity". Or perhaps

maybe the gunman had only one bullet. :eyes:

[stickdog]

96. They shot him twice in the forehead, then immediately jumped

into a waiting car and fled the scene.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

64. We ARE thinking. IMHO, you aren't.

[file83]

71. Not only is he NOT thinking - he's Flamebaiting...ignore that fool.

[motocicleta]

78. whaddaya know

both flamebait and carlvs lit outta here - I guess we're not that fun of a crowd.

[rman]

70. Nice try

But this wasn't just "someone who dislikes W".

This was a 9-11 truth activist - and a scholar at that. Scholars have more credibility than just any random conspiracy theorist.

The killing took place after the robbery. Only one person in that group was robbed and it was not the person that was killed.

All these issues cast doubt on coincidence theory.

It's not evidence, but neither does it make assassination unlikely, contrary to what you imply by saying "that's just dumb" (a feeble ad-hominem if you ask me).

[stickdog]

92. Nothing is flawed about asking questions when something very

strange and very horrible happens.

What are the odds that ANY individual will be shot in the forehead twice by a complete stranger working with a partner for no apparent reason on a busy city street on the busiest night of the weekend in a neighborhood with just a handful of annual homicides of any variety, and both perps will make a clean getaway in a waiting car before any witnesses can even get a good enough look at them to give the police a decent description?

[we can do it]

118. Ok Right - Just Keep Your Head Buried In the Sand

BTW - is that cute little antenna really a snorkel?

[drduffy]

31. ask regarding the probabilities.......

how likely an attack there (h/o similar robberies etc.)
ask if he did anything to promote being shot....
were there anomolies in the attack.....

all these sorts of things must be asked before to accept or dismiss.....

you know.... evidence and stuff....

then you can play the tin foil hat card or some such.....

But personally, I am becoming less and less a believer in 'coincidences'.....

but unless there is a reason he was singled out vs the rest of us in that group.....

[stickdog]

97. OK

how likely an attack there (h/o similar robberies etc.)

probably the only such attack there ever or at least in years

ask if he did anything to promote being shot....

supposedly, his mother gave her purse over and he was just standing there

were there anomolies in the attack.....

he was shot twice in the forehead execution style, then the perps immediately got into a waiting car and fled the scene ... no description has been issued by the police

[snacker]

32. I'v been to this area of Minneapolis (Uptown)

and this was a very unusual occurrence. A friend (who lives in the area) called and told me about the shooting, but I had no idea who it was. 10 at night? In Uptown? Sounds a little fishy to me.

[Joey Liberal]

33. He got wacked by the Bush Cartel n.t

[leveymg]

35. Would someone please post links to Mike's work ?

Thanks in advance.

My heart goes out to his family and friends.

[peacetalksforall]

38. Yes, please - where can we read about what he was doing re 9/11 or

anything else? thanks

[PuraVidaDreamin]

39. this is all I have

http://www.st911.org/

[leveymg]

54. I looked on GOOGLE - just obits and reports of his shooting

Anybody have a link to anything he might have written or reports on work he did before he died?

[myrna minx]

40. Hi folks, I live in the area.

Yes, a shooting in Uptown, especially around Calhoun Square is very unusual but robberies, muggings and car theft in that area is unfortunately on the rise. People in Uptown have been very troubled by the rise in crime since last year. Many, many, many people have been robbed as they leave the Hennepin/Lake area, but it is usually at bar time and no one has been shot.

What I though was strange was that the Police didn't provide a description of the shooters. The only info that was provided was that there was possibility of a white car being involved. I was menaced the night before by people in a white car on Emerson and 31st. I don't know what to think of this. Knowing that crime has risen so much in Uptown has me believing that this was street violence, but I must admit that I'm scratching my head.

[snacker]

42. Thanks for your input.

I don't live in Minneapolis, but the thought of a shooting at 10 on a Saturday night in that area had me wondering too.

[myrna minx]

50. Here are a few more links...

Police release few details about Uptown murder
http://www.kare11.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=121295

The police thought they has captured some suspects, but I haven't heard anything else about it.


Three people being investigated in Uptown murder
http://www.kare11.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=121354

What started out as a traffic stop has mushroomed into much more.
On Tuesday night, police witnessed a car seen running through a south Minneapolis stop light. The driver refused to pull over for police and a slow speed chase ensued. During the chase officers say they saw the occupants of the car throwing items from the windows.

After the car being pursued crashed into another vehicle, police arrested the three occupants. But instead of the petty misdemeanor charge of a traffic offense the troubles are mounting for these three.

Police went back to where the items were tossed from the car windows and found three loaded handguns. And the three they took into custody, two men and a woman, have lengthy criminal records. Now the question is, are they in anyway linked to the murder, in Uptown, of Michael Zebuhr.

[PVK]

104. These guys were apprehended and CLEARED immediately. n/t

[Jara sang]

43. How often do criminals rob a group?

They don't say how many "family members" were there but I assume it's more than three otherwise they would have named them. Criminals don't normally attack groups such as this. It's harder to control. Plus the mother gave the purse to the robber. It goes from armed robbery to murder. Why shoot the guy in the head? A head shot is a very precise shot and screams of execution. Unless the assailants are identified as "drugged out of their gourds" crack fiends, I'm going to assume their was an ulterior motive behind the killing.

[myrna minx]

45. This has been all over our local news.

I believe that it was his monther and his sister.
http://minnesota.publicradio.org/display/web/2006/03/21/crime/

Minneapolis police are asking for the public's help in catching suspects in a fatal shooting that happened this weekend in the Uptown area. Police say Michael Zebuhr, 25, was shot during a robbery on Saturday evening and died Monday night. Robberies in Uptown have been on the rise, as in the rest of the city. But they say homicides there are rare. Some who live in the area say they are shocked and saddened by the shooting, but say they hope it will help bring neighbors closer together.


St. Paul, Minn. — Police say on Saturday night at about 9:45, Michael Zebuhr was walking with his mother and sister down Girard Avenue, just down the street from the Calhoun Square parking ramp. Two men approached and demanded Zebuhr's mother's purse. Police say the woman gave up her purse without resistance. Then they shot her son in the head.

[stickdog]

98. But where's the fucking description of the perps? (nt)

[smirkymonkey]

48. Good point.

Another vote here for "Whacked by the Bush Mob."

[Swamp Rat]

46. Maybe he was executed?

It wouldn't surprise me at all knowing the BFEE.

[BrklynLiberal]

60. No coincidence.

:tinfoilhat:

He was getting too lcose to something.
The BFEE strikes again.

[Demrock6]

66. Also from Minnesota here.

The man was shot in the head and died about 2 days latter. I agree it is strange for the robbers to shoot to kill after the people handed over the money. He was a top notch student, looking forward to working with NASA and other government programs.

Perhaps his high credentials and curiosity got him killed. We all know the government can wiretap and find out where and when he will be in the particular location.

I really do not think Bushco had anything to do with it though.

[motocicleta]

69. I suggest people who think we're all a bunch of conspiracy freaks

look at your post for how to disagree without being offensive. You present your point, and respectfully weigh in that you don't think this is a BFEE hit. Some others might take a lesson from your stance on this. I'm not saying the LIHOP and MIHOP believers don't come on too strong at times, but just because you disagree is no reason to randomly insult fellow DUers. Thanks, Demrock6.

[EVDebs]

72. Similar to the Mary Meyer shooting (JFK's mistress and Cords' ex) nt

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/death12.htm

[file83]

73. Why the HELL was this moved to the 9/11 dungeon? This is a MURDER!!!

Not some conspiracy. This is a REAL MURDER. Bad move moderator. :thumbsdown:

[ClayZ]

75. That was quick... So much for research! K/R

I was just going to say, Robbery my foot! Smells like a hit to me!

[peacetalksforall]

82. What is the 9-11 dungeon? Where am I? Everytime I enter a thread

and write some thoughts, then click - I get a closed thread. This is the first where there was a link. So where am I - what is the dungeon?

[Name removed]

83. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rman]

74. ok we're home

LOL

(just trying to keep a sense of humor)

[file83]

86. We are the dregs of the DU earth, aren't we?

:hi:

[rman]

87. That we are

:hi:

[theobscure]

79. bioengineering student

He also was a student of Judy Wood, a mechanical engineering professor at Clemson. She is also a member of Scholars For 9/11 Truth and has articles posted on their website regarding the possibility of controlled demolition and working to debunk the "pancake theory", the government's latest theory on the collapse of the towers.

To me, honesty would compel anyone to report that it looks very suspicious. There have been quite a handful of suspicious deaths, particularly suicides, especially among independent journalists critical of the Bush administration or the government in general. Hunter Thompson comes to mind.

[peacetalksforall]

80. I found this - hope it's not a dupe? Right wing website in Minneapolis:

There are two references to the shooting on their website. I think it is supposed to be a crime focused right wing website? There are two blog articles about the shooting.

From the first: "Some human-interest news has come to light, which should in no way diminish the impact of the savage killing of Mr. Zebuhr. I bring this to light only to show some interesting background of Mr. Zebuhr, and also what some left-wing conspiracy nutjobs are already saying about this terrible crime.

It seems that Mr. Zebuhr was a member of Scholars for 9/11 Truth, an organization that believes "the World Trade Center was almost certainly brought down by controlled demolitions".

From the second: "For those of you not familiar with the area, Uptown, Minneapolis is ground zero of liberalism. It's significant if you can get the peacenik, liberal, fuzzy-thinking Democrats stirred to action over real crime (as opposed to perceived crime).

Fellow MOB member and self-described converted Republican pinkmonkeybird lives in the Uptown area, and has some observations about the crime scene and an upcoming vigil (tonight!). It's not clear whether the police will provide armament, or if you're expected to bring your own. See JB Doubtless with questions."

Worth reading if this murder interests you.

http://rambix.blogspot.com/

Warning: Michelle M is a link on their site.

[file83]

85. Apparently, that part of town isn't as "crime free" as the Police Chief

lead us to believe. I guess there are all kinds of robberies going on in that part of town, the only new element this time was that one of the victims was shot.

[stickdog]

88. The ONLY new element was that someone was shot????

He was shot twice in the forehead for no reason whatsoever!!!!!

[file83]

119. Where did you hear that? I missed that....please give me a link so

I can read it...thanks! :hi:

[stickdog]

124. Here ya go

http://wcco.com/local/local_story_079230508.html

One gunman shot Zebuhr twice in the head. Police said the shooting appeared to be cold-blooded and unprovoked.

http://wcco.com/crime/local_story_085090130.html

Zebuhr was walking on 31st Street and Girard Avenue South with his mother, sister and a friend on March 19 when he was shot in the head.

[file83]

146. So, it's a "double-tap" to the head? That does sound professional, NOT a

"heat of the moment" kind of thing. It's deliberate execution, not anger. It's calculated - so leaving the other witnesses would function as a "leave other's alive to tell the story of the robbery", me thinks.

I stand corrected, thanks for the info on the 2 shots. I knew he was shot in the head, but I thought he was only shot once. Twice makes a world of difference.

[stickdog]

147. Yes, it does. It's the first thing trained assassins are taught. (nt)

[PVK]

129. They noticed you.

Liberal Conspiracies
I was wondering why Rambix and the Red Star was suddenly getting hits from the Democratic Underground, and with a couple of clicks I had the answer. Our lefty friends have been running with a conspiracy theory, as I originally pointed out in this post, following the murder of Michael Zebuhr in Uptown, Minneapolis.

You can read the thread here.

I like this warning on one of the posts about this site: "Warning: Michelle M is a link on their site." Horrors!
posted by Rambix at 9:52 PM Comment (0) | Trackback (0)


CUTE.

[stickdog]

99. This has 27 greatest votes. Why is not on the greatest page? (nt)

[Desertrose]

101. because....

when you are down in the twilight zone...you don't ever ever make it on the greatest page.

Makes ya go huh, doesn't it?

[theobscure]

102. because.....

Democrats are just as complicit in the cover-up and whitewash of 9/11 as the Republicans. That's not exactly the kind of information you want messing up your chances to take advantage of the current crisis in '06 and '08 elections.

This is why there is zero noise from Democrats regarding post attack issues like the destruction of the ground zero crime scene evidence, the air quality misinformation, the 9/11 Commission Report farce, the fact that no one has been even reprimanded for 9/11, and in fact, many have been promoted. These issues have nothing to do with whether or not you accept the official version of the attack itself. So, why are all Democrats from Al Gore to Howard Dean to Congressional Democrats to Elliot Spitzer ignoring it?

I don't know. Could it be that there would be no reason to cover up the aftermath issues if there was nothing to cover-up regarding the attack itself?

We don't need to wait for the answers to these questions to be answered, if they ever would be, to come to the stark conclusion that we have been betrayed by both parties, equally entrenched and insulated in a duopoly of power. The neo-cons that have taken over the Republican Party may have been the ringleader and orchestrator, but the Democrats have chosen to help carry the bag.

[PVK]

103. More on this at this thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=125&topic_id=78904&mesg_id=78925

[happydreams]

105. 9/11 scholar for truth shot dead!

Havent' had much time to look at this.


Minneapolis Police Chief, William McManus said, "I want to assure everyone that this crime is an aberration, this is not the norm for around here."



Michael Zebuhr was a Scholar for 911 truth. Could his muder be a message to other brave souls who are asking unwelcome questions? Or am I being too paranoid?
http://www.st911.org/

Zebuhr was shot in the head in the 3100 block of Girard Avenue South around 10 p.m. Saturday.
Police said Zebuhr was walking to a parked car with family members, when robbers approached them and demanded his mother's purse. She gave it to the gunmen without any resistance. One of the men then shot Zebuhr.
Lt. Lee Edwards of the Minneapolis Police Department said, "Within a half hour of the incident, we had already had six homicide investigators or six officers with homicide experience already working this thing."
Police tried to reassure the community on Tuesday the crime would not go unpunished.
http://wcco.com/local/local_story_080101653.html

[geomon666]

106. So he was seemingly shot for no reason.

...yeah.

[Judi Lynn]

107. I hope this will only move people to look harder and deeper.

His life should not have been wasted. I believe of course he was deliberately murdered.

What a rotten shame.

[happydreams]

108. I'm armed and mean to stay that way. nt

[SofaKingLiberal]

109. The truth is coming out.

Incidents like this only attract more attention to the 9/11 coverup.

[goforit]

121. I certainly hope Spitzer grabs hold of this case even if he is Gov of NY.

[tom_paine]

110. Sound slike someone was trying hard to make it SEEM like a robbery

Might it have been just that? Maybe.

But in Bush Amerika, the murders of political opponents and truthseekers seems more and more frequent. From Enron's Cliff Baxter's "suicide" (he was thoughtful enough to purchse specialized, ballistically untraceable Glazer Safety Slugs to kill himself with...yeah, right) to Wellstone and everything in between.

Might it have been a simple robbery gone barbaric?

Maybe. But like the Jews in 1933 Germany, we would be fools to ignore what this may portend.

[PVK]

117. If it was a robbery, did they use the credit cards???

That would have happened RIGHT AWAY before the bulletins could go out and the cards could be flagged.

[IndyOp]

111. For a little perspective... He is one of 100+ members.

It could be chance. Suspicion is reasonable. I would not jump to conclusions.

[PVK]

112. If you knew this neighborhood like I do, you wouldn't say that.

This type of thing does NOT happen there.

It is an UPSCALE, gentrified neighborhood near the Lakes in Minneapolis. It is inhabited by wealthy people and 31st and Girard is in a VERY public location.

The community is demanding an investigation.

David Elmore, who lives nearby said, "With this many people around, you have to be pretty brazen to pull something like this."

[stickdog]

125. He was walking with 3 family members in a nice neighborhood

at 10 PM on a busy weekend night. His mother met the robbers' demands by handing over her purse as requested. Then, without any provocation, he was shot twice in the head from point blank range. The gunmen then jumped into a waiting car and disappeared. The police have yet to publicize a description of either assailant.

I'd say suspicion is warranted.

[Up2Late]

113. The way the Bush crime family works, anythings possible.

Usually, I would give a link to the * Body Count website, but since it's down again (not unusual) here's what appears to be a clone site of it (not a mirror, but it looks like a duplicate of the same info): <http://www.zen13351.zen.co.uk/reflect/my%20thoughts/bush%20body%20count.htm>

[PVK]

114. They shot HIM in the head after getting the bag

http://theintermountain.com/news/articles.asp?articleID=2588

If they already had the purse why shoot him and not any of the other 3 in his party of four?

Isn't it especially suspicious that his mother is from Virginia and he was working with the group in Duluth, MN who went to Virginia re: the Moussaouri trial? Don't you think he must have been also visiting Jim Felzer (the head of the 9/11 Scholars for Truth and professor at the University of Minnesota) at the U of M while in Minneapolis as well as his sister (who happens to also be a student there)???

[dailykoff]

122. So this was aimed at Fetzer.

That figures. Fetzer is a former Marine who sees right through these crooks and doesn't mind saying so.

Very, very sad about Mr. Zebuhr.

Thanks for the info!

[lovuian]

115. Just add him to list of people dead during Bush's regime

Wellstone
Cliff Baxter
now him but there are a huge list of names...

Whats amazing that Bush thinks this is going to stop because 9/11 was a massive coverup... they aren't going to be able to keep it covered up for ever...

[PVK]

116. Yes and it's interesting that the head of the 9/11 Scholars for Truth

who is Jim Fetzer, wrote the book on Wellstone's murder (The Strange Death of Paul Wellstone).

He is a professor at the University of Minnesota (and I am proud to be a resident of this state and alumnus of this university).

[peacetalksforall]

123. Fetzer is also an expert on the JFK assassination. n/t

[peacetalksforall]

126. IMO - if 9-11 is ever figured out it is going to be with science.

In spite of the ludicrousness of finding Atta's passport at the foot of the debris of the building, there will always be a lot of people who will believe it because Georgie's people said so. We may never know the story behind the put-options.

We have the greatest chance of proving something through science and science will win over the most people to the probabilities through facts. The science of the collapse, the math of the hole at the Pentagon,remote control capabilities.

Scientists are always in the hot seat with the right wing in many ways, but are sometimes in bed with this regime - the comments of the chief guy at NASA from yesterday - pushing the George team. But, stem cell, warming, safe power inventions, corporate legislation evasion, the deaths of 1 1/2 to 2 dozen bio-chemists will not be recognized by a small per cent of people here. Proof of the fall of skyscrapers might.

(The victim was a bio-engineer getting a doctorate. Not the same as bio-chemist.)

However, we can still take all the conincidences and get excited, but it is way to early to link all this to the murder of this young accomplished student associate of this society, but it's not too early to lock it in to the memory and wait it out. After all, the newspaper accounts say that the area has been plagued with thefts amd some say by two African-Americans. There may not be anything political, at all.

Let me remind you of some other things though.

Minnesota - Wellstone land
His first vote in the Senate was against Iraq War 1.
His last vote in the Senate was against Iraq War 2.
His flight took off from the Twin Cities.
The FBI was supposedly at the scene of the crash within 45 (?) minutes.
The crash scene was several hours from the Twin Cities.

Moussaui tried to learn to fly an airplane in the Twin Cities.
Two FBI agents who tried to get the FBI in Washington to look at Moussaui and who failed to get authorization to seize M's computer were from the Twin Cities (and while we write about this event, Moussaui is back in the news because of his trial).

And now a young scientist studying 9-11 is murdered in the Twin Cities.

Makes you wonder if links like this are being assembled in other cities.

Minnesota - also the home of a vile very small group of right wing activists - powerlineblog.com.

[theobscure]

127. about the science....

I used to be like you and think that science would bring out the truth. However, I'm not so sure anymore. The reality is that a vast majority of Americans, myself included, are seriously lacking in scientific and mathematic comprehension.

I just don't think most Americans are going to sit through a scientific explanation of the issues in question.
Secondly, the government has the evidence. They will always be able to hold that over the heads of anyone bringing forward alternative theories.

Don't get me wrong; I do think it's useful for the scientific inquiry to continue. I just don't think that will be the way to break the truth into the mainstream.

In my opinion, the most compelling case lies in the aftermath issues and the silence surrounding them, including:

the lightning speed of the removal of the ground zero crime scene evidence under machine gun guard and the nearly total destruction of the evidence (only 1/4 to 1/2 of 1 percent of the evidence was retained)

the misinformation about the ground zero air quality

the lack of investigation into the put options

the statements of Silverstein regarding Building 7

the farcical 9/11 Commission Report

the fact that no one has even been reprimanded on any level for 9/11

the fact that so many of the people who would have been in a position to stop 9/11 have instead been promoted

To me, these are issues that any American, even those that believe the government version of 9/11 events, should be outraged about. Exposing these issues in the mainstream would quickly cause an unraveling of the whole affair. The only possible explanation for the universal silence on these aftermath issues is that there is something to cover-up regarding the attacks themselves. At that point, the scientific anomalies, the Pentagon, Pennsylvania, the war games, and all that come into play as icing on the cake.

The admitted difficulty is that these aftermath issues clearly point to a government complicity that goes beyond the Bush administration. People don't know where to turn. What do you do when all the people in power have betrayed you? We need a non-partisan plan of action to take our government and our country back.

[peacetalksforall]

134. Many of the points in your list can be obfuscated by lies and we know

how easy it is for them to lie.

Numbers of length and depth and power don't lie. The science of evidence can be accepted by many people in this country who are the salt and pepper (no exotic stuff) types - just the basic science of it all - they would not pay as much attention to a back and forth offense and defense about put-options as they would to hard data.

The key is to get hard data suppositions into the heads of the public. What is involved here is very simple to explain compared to quantum physics or voices from somewhere or even the probability that the Atta film showing him checking in for the flight might have been fabricated or the fact that other possible evidence has disappeared.

With text, visuals, and examples - the math of destruction is easy, imo, but I'm not a scientist. I know what my capability is to understand something well explained. And I know the measurements of a 757 and which scientists I can trust to tell me about implosions.

[theobscure]

135. bottom line

I see your points; I guess the bottom line is though that this will never see the mainstream light of day until and unless people decide they want to know the truth. And being that the short term consequences of knowing the truth are worse than those of not knowing; I think people will choose to be oblivious or indifferent.

I suppose we should just keep trying by every means at our disposal to crack the veneer so future generations know that at least someone was trying. But the overwhelming likelihood is that the Republicans won't put up much of a fight in '08 so that the whole 9/11 episode can be swept under the rug and they can come back full speed ahead in 2012 with a clean slate.

[peacetalksforall]

137. You may be right - how tragic ifswept under = just like the JFK lie -

except they tried to put their lies in a Commission and publish it so that it ends up being proof of the extent humans can go to to lie.

Yes, people need to want the truth. Someone has to cut through the blind patriotism and insult to America thing. As in 'How does anyone dare bomb us'. What are these people going to do when they more of the truth?

[theobscure]

145. another aftermath issue that I forgot to mention....

The government spent 1/2 the amount investigating 9/11 that it did investigating the Bill Clinton sex scandal. This doesn't, or at least shouldn't, have anything to do with Democrat vs. Republican. It's a matter of consensual oral sex between two adults vs. the mass murder of 3,000 people.

I don't have to be a scientific expert to come to the conclusion that criminally and forensically investigating the 9/11 evidence is going to be a more complicated and expensive endeavor than sorting through the Clinton/Lewinsky affair. I also don't think it's a stretch to say that 9/11 was the more serious crime.

It's just so infuriating about how obvious it is that our government at every level is covering up the truth about what happened on 9/11. Not only does entrenched and insulated power become absolute and corrupt, the people in power become arrogant both about their power and corruptness.

[bobbieinok]

161. the Columbia space shuttle investigation compared to the 911 investigation

--Columbia investigation started immediately; 911 months afterwards

--much more $$ allocated to Colubia investigation

etc

[theobscure]

162. much more money allocated to Clinton investigation

The government investigation of 9/11 has cost 20 million; whereas 40 million was spent investigating Bill Clinton. I tend to believe that the mass murder of 3,000 people is a more serious crime than consensual oral sex between two adults and is also a more complicated crime to investigate.

The whitewash is so brazen. I listened to Dr. Griffin's recent lecture today and he was asked if all of this kept him up at night. He replied that what kept him up nights was the thought that perhaps the government wants us to know they were behind 9/11; and they want us to know, that they know that we know the truth about 9/11. It's a chilling thought to contemplate.

[PVK]

128. Listen. My fiance lived there, my brother did and his brother still does.

This area does not see things like this!!!

This is just totally WEIRD. ALL of it.

[bronco2121]

130. i know what happened...

someone probably got sick of listening to him talk about missiles on 9/11 and decided enough was enough.

b.

[motocicleta]

131. what are you suggesting? eom

[motocicleta]

132. never mind. I looked at your site and see what you're saying

What I don't understand is the logic that people who have other takes on 9/11 are pod people, and that they're hurting the movement. I'd say anyone who thinks this movement is going to result in anything other than failure hasn't been paying attention. The capacity of the American people to comprehend that 9/11 was the result of any conspiracy is nonexistent, or doesn't matter because the powers that be won't give it the potential to be powerful. It is almost impossible to separate the two, but this fucker ain't going anywhere, if history is any guide.

That said, I guess I don't understand the virulence with which both sides see this thing. You and yours are so pissed at others who actually agree with you as to just flat out insult them and their intelligence. On the other side, the "pod people" just tell you to fuck off because they're tired of being insulted. It sucks.

Oh never mind. All on both sides are being virulent, I suppose, because they think something good will come from this. And here I am, totally depressed and nihilistic, shitting on both sides. I'll just shut up.

[bronco2121]

133. it's insidious...

it's insidious... but no one is really angry at anyone.

the problem is in not keeping on message. 'scholars for 9/11 truth' are not keeping on message by promoting every crazy debunked idea about what hit the towers and pentagon. their 'big tent' approach is not a scholarly approach. they ignore the core group of 911 researchers, and thus the consensus message that has been taking shape over the last 4+ years.

the key is to stay on message, because the 'other side' nails us every time when they point out how we're so willing to believe ANYTHING. 'scholars for 911 truth' is hurting the movement because they were derailed from the start and now they limp along and hold the whole movement back.

b.

[theobscure]

136. scholars for truth

I largely agree with your point about scholars for truth. I think they are also too partisan. I'm not sure that it's clear yet that they are "hurting" the movement. I think what's really hurting it is that people just don't want or don't know how to deal with the truth.

[rman]

138. The message should be

to keep hammering on the holes in the OCT,
not to try and prove what did actually happen that day.

We don't have the powers to gather the required evidence to prove anything. But the omissions, the lies and the inconsistencies in the official 9-11 story we can expose.
"We could not have known terrorists would use panes as missiles", Investigations into US-Saudi-terrorism financial connections called off from up high. Sibel Edmonds, Indira Singh and other whistleblowers' stories. That sort of thing.

[theobscure]

140. a point I always make about criminal investigations...

People always want to start with wanting answers about "why our government would do this?" or "how would they have pulled this off?" My answer is always among the lines of:

Since when do you expect to have a motive and all the details of a crime before you even begin the investigation into that crime? If that was the standard for criminal investigation in this country, our prisons would be nearly empty. The motive is often the last thing we know and people are investigated and even convicted of crimes every day without really knowing their motive. There are many elements of a crime that are not uncovered until an investigation is completed or even at trial. Often times, in fact most of the time, it becomes completely unnecessary to uncover every aspect of a crime because sufficient other aspects of the crime have been uncovered in the course of the investigation or revealed in the course of a trial to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that a crime has been committed and by whom.

Nearly everyone would have to agree that this standard for dealing with criminal prosecution has served us well over the course of our nation's history. Why would it not be the sufficient standard in regard to the biggest crime in our nation's history?

[rman]

144. Excellent points

I'll remember those.

[rman]

139. Which site?

there's no link to any site in bronco2121 posts.

Is Scholars for Truth pushing pod, hologram, missile, laser CTs? Where on their site do they do that?

[bronco2121]

141. here...

bronco's site:
www.flight77.info

scholars for 911 truth info
http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/ArticlesMeyer3March2006.html
http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/st911/index.html

The association of the junk science typified by the ScholarsFor911Truth.org's resources page with the competent work of Jones and Griffin featured on the home page functions both to advance the former, and discredit the latter through association. In an essay examining ScholarsFor911Truth.org, Jim Hoffman concludes that the website may sabotage the work of Steven Jones.

[stickdog]

142. I don't think Meyer's observations are crazy at all.

http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/ArticlesMeyer3March2006.html

If a 757 were to strike a reinforced concrete wall, the energy from the speed and weight of the aircraft will be transferred, in part into the wall, and to the structural failure of the aircraft. It is not too far of an analogy as if you had an empty aluminum can, traveling at high speed hitting a reinforced concrete wall. The aluminum can would crumple (the proper engineering term is buckle) and, depending on the structural integrity of the wall, crack, crumble or fail completely. The wall failure would not be a neat little hole, as the energy of the impact would be spread throughout the wall by the reinforcing steel.

This is difficult to model accurately, as any high speed, high energy, impact of a complex structure like an aircraft, into a discontinuous wall with windows etc. is difficult. What is known is that nearly all of the energy from this event would be dissipated in the initial impact, and subsequent buckling of the aircraft.

We are lead to believe that not only did the 757 penetrate the outer wall, but continued on to penetrate separate internal walls totaling 9 feet of reinforced concrete. The final breach of concrete was a nearly perfectly cut circular hole (see below) in a reinforced concrete wall, with no subsequent damage to the rest of the wall. (If we are to believe that somehow this aluminum aircraft did in fact reach this sixth final wall.)

American Airlines Flight 77, a Boeing 757, is alleged to have punched through 6 blast-resistant concrete walls, a total of nine feet of reinforced concrete, before exiting through this hole. It is physically impossible for the wall to have failed in a neat clean cut circle, period. When I first saw this hole, a chill went down my spine because I knew it was not possible to have a reinforced concrete wall fail in this manner. It should have caved in, in some fashion. How do you create a nice clean hole in a reinforced concrete wall? With an explosive shaped charge.

Exactly what strikes you as crazy about this guy's observations? I'm not an expert on Flight 77 (too much bs propaganda and disinfo on BOTH sides for me) so I'm just wondering ...

[mirandapriestly]

159. They make total sense.nt

[rman]

143. Thanks

Looks good.

I think Meyer is pretty close though:

"I can say from my expertise that the damage at the Pentagon was not caused by a Boeing 757."

If i may add a bit to that: "...the damage at the Pentagon was not caused by a Boeing 757 crashing into the building."

Doesn't change much about the meaning, it's just more specific.
Now it reflects both the "no-plane" theory and the "plane-shredded-to-bits-before-impact" theory.

I had never heard of the latter but i think it's rather plausible. Still i wonder if it wasn't a smaller plane then a 767.

[mirandapriestly]

158. never mind...nt

[Pissed Off Cabbie]

169. 9/11 Dungeon

I'm new here. Why are 9/11 complicity threads relegated to a "dungeon"? What seems to be the problem with discussing such a highly relevant topic?

pissedoffcabbie.blogspot.com

[Name removed]

170. Deleted message

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