77's Washington DC flightpath.

[Old and In the Way]

I've been PMing with Make7 and talking about the flightpath of 77 into the Pentagon.

As far as I know, this is the presumed flightpath of 77 over Washington enroute into the Pentagon. I believe it was based on a radar tracking of 77....perhaps from the operator who remarked that it seemed like it was manuvering like a jet fighter?

<>

But if you look at this picture of the Pentagon and it's orientation to Ron Reagan Airport, it is obvious that the map is not correct. The actual flightpath is around 90 degrees off on the bearing. If 77 came into Washington over the White House, the turn would have been a lot tighter, closer to 180 degrees.

<>


Do we really have a definitive map of 77's Washington DC fightpath?

[Make7]

1. The Drawing Board

Regarding that top map, quite some time ago LARED found this webpage that seems to be the person who made that map explaining how he created it.

For the proper orientation of the Pentagon we can use satellite images from Google maps. Start here - you can zoom in/out and move the image by clicking on it and dragging it in any direction. Google seems to be in agreement with the top map as far as the orientation related to North for the overall map is concerned. (NOTE: Just so we're all on the same page - the western most side of the Pentagon shown in the Google satellite photos is the one that was hit.)

However, comparing the the top map of your post to Google's images, it does indeed look like the arrow indicating the flight path is not correct as shown. The final approach is farther North than it seems it should be, and I also thought that the 9/11 Commission indicated the flight path approaching the city should be closer to following the river - not going over DC itself. (I'll have to look that up later to verify if that is true or not.)

Hmmmmm....back to the drawing board.

- Make7

[Old and In the Way]

3. I think it was easier to post this than try to explain on PM.

I assumed from the published maps of 77's return to Washington, that it entered the DC flightspace from a SSW direction. Did 77 actually come in over the WH? If so, that seems to be from the NW. Did 77 fly past DC and turn back?

[Make7]

4. It does appear that an approach from the NW is incorrect.

Searching the 9-11 Commission site gives us a little data (very little) to work with:

At 9:29, the autopilot on American 77 was disengaged; the aircraft was at 7,000 feet and approximately 38 miles west of the Pentagon. At 9:32, controllers at the Dulles Terminal Radar Approach Control "observed a primary radar target tracking eastbound at a high rate of speed." This was later determined to have been Flight 77.

At 9:34, Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport advised the Secret Service of an unknown aircraft heading in the direction of the White House. American 77 was then 5 miles west-southwest of the Pentagon and began a 330-degree turn. At the end of the turn, it was descending through 2,200 feet, pointed toward the Pentagon and downtown Washington. The hijacker pilot then advanced the throttles to maximum power and dove toward the Pentagon.

At 9:37:46, American Airlines Flight 77 crashed into the Pentagon, traveling at approximately 530 miles per hour. All on board, as well as many civilian and military personnel in the building, were killed.

http://www.9-11commission.gov/report/911Report_Ch1.htm

At 9:36, the FAA's Boston Center called NEADS and relayed the discovery about the aircraft closing in on Washington, an aircraft that still had not been linked with the missing American 77. The FAA told NEADS: "Latest report. Aircraft VFR [Visual Flight Rules] six miles southeast of the White House. ... Six, southwest. Six, southwest of the White House, deviating away."

http://www.9-11commission.gov/staff_statements/staff_statement_17.pdf

For that last report related to the White House, it would appear that the person quoted initially misspoke when they said, "six miles southeast" and then corrected themselves by stating "six, southwest" twice.

I didn't use a fine tooth comb while searching for the above results - but there does not really look to be a whole lot of information concerning this on their site. Although - during one of the public hearings I seem to recall there was a video presentation that had some info regarding the flight paths of the aircraft. But if my memory serves me, it didn't have the final approach information for AA77, but I'll try to find it anyway just in case I am mistaken.

- Make7

[Old and In the Way]

5. Interesting...that really seems more the way I understood it

It would seem that the original approach on the map from the OP was not correct.....neither the fly-by of the WH or the final direction of impact. Very strange, though, that we don't have a clear record on the exact flight path....I'd think there'd be all kinds of documentation and part of the 9/11 commission record.

[Yatar]

14. Did you tape the 9-11 Commission hearings from C-Span?

They gave a video presentation that traced (what they claim to be!) the exact flight path through Arlington. The image in post #1 that has been on the web for a long time differs considerably from it. The "official" flight path never has the plane cross the Potomac and has it turn southward in its 180-degree turn well before it reaches the Pentagon. It also goes much further south in its circling and slows down considerably in its turn.

There is also the FAA radar tracking somewhere on the web, I think linked to one of these older DU threads (it was in a PDF released by the FAA that gives the radar tracks for all the flights). It seems to fit pretty well with the 9-11 Commission Report video.

[Make7]

16. No, I did not tape them.

I just have a fuzzy recollection of a video showing the flight paths, although I don't recall the final approach being shown for AA77. I have done a couple of searches on the web for the final approach without turning up anything good. Videos of the public hearings of the 911 Commission are available on their website if I am not mistaken - I plan to look through those when I get a chance. Maybe someone else here at DU can remember where to find that info.

It appears that the consensus is that that first map in the original post is wrong. Now we just need to find the right one, if it does indeed exist in the public domain.

I did a search of the FAA website to see if I could find the final approach radar tracks in question but came up empty handed. Hmmm....

- Make7

[Jazz2006]

2. I recall seeing FAA logs published quite some time ago....

but I do not recall the details or whether the logs included flight 77 ~ I'll have a look for a link when I have more time and will post it if it is of any use to ascertaining the flight path.

[kerry_s]

6. An another interesting photo

"Is it just coincidence that the approach path of what hit the Pentagon is exactly 90 degrees to the angle of Runway 15?"

[Old and In the Way]

7. Why would 90 degrees be important in this theory?

As opposed to, say, 65 degrees? Is the ILS signal masked to anyone using 15 when it is perpindicular?

[bmxeroftruth]

8. hey

i just posted something on flight 77 it should be at the top please everyone go look at it.

thank you

[Old and In the Way]

11. Can you provide a link? nt

[Debunking911]

9. Question...

Why does everyone think the highjackers would stick to the approach flight path once they got close enough to hit the pentagon?

Most pilots use landmarks to tell where they are. Even Airline pilots who use instruments also use landmarks. The towers were an easy landmark but the pentagon wasn't from as many miles away. Pilots use a VOR ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VHF_omnidirectional_range )to get close then use line of sight when they get close if they can. They only rely on instruments if the weather is bad. All they had to do was point to Reagans VOR to get close enough to see the Washington Monument to get close enough to target the pentagon with line of sight.

Like this...



See the washington Monument in the distance?

(High res)

[Old and In the Way]

10. I think Washington DC is relatively easy to navigate with

the landmark references, particularly the Patomoc and Wahshington Monument for line up.

But I'm trying to understand the final flightpath of 77. The map that I reference to is what I believed to be the final approach of 77 into the Pentagon....but the reality is that is was 90 degrees off. That would make the turn even more severe (assuming it did come in on a bearing that took it close to the WH as the map infers). As I note in the OP, I assume this is the tracking path that the radar operators recorded....if so, that nice 270 turn is wrong...it's closer to 180 degrees.

[kerry_s]

12. We know that they were confused

- Where should we go, Hani?

- I dont rememba, let me sink... Allah is the gritiest...

- Where should we go, its 9 o'clock Hani!

- Aaaa, Whashiton, Whashiton!

[MrSammo1]

13. Listen............

http://911verses.com/underground/2006-04-13_Black_Op_Radio_Interviews_Professor_Jim_Fetzer.MP3

[savemefromdumbya]

15. Flight 77 did not exist

[Make7]

17. We now have the official flightpath. Just released:

Source: http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB196/doc02.pdf

It looks like that turn was about 3 miles in diameter.

- Make7

[bushatbooker]

18. Did anybody claim to see it spiral down?

or just on it's final low approach?

[Make7]

19. I don't know. What does killtown's website and/or blog say? ( n/t )

[bushatbooker]

21. I didn't see anybody mention they saw it spiral down

kinda weird a lot of people "saw" a big plane on it's final seconds of hitting, but not minutes of spiralling down.

[Old and In the Way]

22. Thanks for the PM on this, Make7

This is radically different from the original flightpath. I had thought that the map in my OP was based on the ATC description of the approach that the controller had said was manuvering like a fighter.

So I wonder why they made that kind of approach? Bleed speed and altitude? You'd think that they'd be concerned about interception by this time and would have simply dropped the nose directly on the Pentagon. It certainly changes the degree of difficulty in making the final approach.

[Make7]

23. No problem - thought you'd be interested that something was released.

I always thought that this maneuver was intended to reduce altitude so they didn't overshoot the Pentagon.

So why wouldn't they just drop the nose and go straight in?

I imagine there has to be some limit to how fast it is safe to drop altitude in a large plane. (Or even most planes.) If the overall pitch is down far enough, even if you cut the engines completely wouldn't the plane just keep accelerating due to gravity? It could start going so fast that it might possibly cause damage to the aircraft and/or cause a loss of control of the plane. Would whoever was flying the thing know what the limits of the aircraft were?

As far as the difficulty of this turn is concerned, I remember making a calculation based on the incorrect approach path you had in the original post. That turn had a diameter of about 4 miles and I figured that it could be a Standard Rate Turn if the plane was going around 375mph. This newly released info looks like the turn is actually 3 miles in diameter. I'll have to recalculate and compare it to what the speed of the plane was to see how they correlate.

I plan to look into this more when I get a chance, right now I'm just theorizing - the only time I'm ever in a plane is when I'm a passenger...

- Make7

[Generarth]

20. My view is that whatever hit the Pentagon took off from Reagan

I havn't put any meat on this yet, it's just a hunch.

[mirandapriestly]

24. So....

why are these flight plans different? Where did the first one come from?



edited to add: Why would it do a loop like that? wouldn't "someone" or something have plenty of time to notice it circling there considering the country "was "under attack"?