So OBVIOUS they planted Flight 93 debris it's laughable!

[killtown]

Man the 9/11 perps must think we are really stupid. Here are some new photos of "Flight 93 plane debris" that was apparently shown at the Moussaoui trail:



http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/04/12/moussaoui.trial.ap/index.html (Scroll down to: "Gallery: Crash site of Flight 93")

:rofl:


Ok, when you've stopped laughing, let's remember what we were told about the Shanksville crash scene. We were told the 155ft long plane buried itself 20ft underneath the crater (including the tail section apparently) because the ground was spongy from being refilled with dirt back in '96...



The 115 ton Boeing crashed so hard at a nearly a 90-degree angle traveling 580 mph that the plane disintegrated. So much so that the coroner couldn't find a single drop of blood around the crash scene.

But some how small scraps of debris no bigger than a notebook were found scattered in the woods perpendicular to the angle of the crash.

NOW, we have these TWO BIG fuselage pieces "found" off in the woods that somehow escaped being buried in the crater and escaped being burned by jet fuel!

Of course, what did happened to all the thousands of gallons of jet fuel that should have still been in Flight 93 when it crashed???


(Pic on left is from Flight 93 crash scene. Pic on right is a crash of a small leer jet.)


Does anybody still think that a Boeing 757 crashed in Shanksville???


Let's review what Operation Northwoods said:

THE JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF

13 March 1962

JUSTIFICATION FOR US MILITARY INTERVENTION IN CUBA

7. Hijacking attempts against civil air and surface craft should appear to continue as harassing measures condoned by the government of Cuba.

c. At precisely the same time that the aircraft was presumably shot down a submarine or small surface craft would disburse F-101 parts, parachute, etc.

http://killtown.blogspot.com/2006/04/operation-northwoods.html

[Chomp]

1. "Laughable"?

Yeah, great timing dude.

Ugh.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

2. But what happened to the real 757 that really is missing?

[helderheid]

5. I want to know that too. Too many unanswered questions

[Beaverhausen]

6. I want to know that too.

Why won't some people believe this plane crashed where they say it did?

[killtown]

12. Physics?

Physics proves it didn't???

[helderheid]

3. K and RRRRRRR

[Guaranteed]

4. Alright, so where did it crash, then?

Or, alternatively, where are all the people that were on the plane?

And what, exactly, did the witnesses in Shanksville see?

Further, what the hell are you getting at? What is the POINT of this?

[killtown]

9. If Flight 93 didn't crash where we were told...

everything else is a moot question.

[seriousstan]

13. No it is not moot. Where are the planes and people?

[killtown]

16. It doesn't really matter. The conspiracy is already proven.

Everything else is a moot point.

[seriousstan]

19. Calling it moot doesn't answer the question it merely proves you have

no answers.

[killtown]

23. If the conpiracy is proven, all other questions are moot.

It really doesn't matter where the plane really went.

[Guaranteed]

20. Oh, it's been proven. Why didn't you just say so?

Err...Well, I guess you just did.

[the other one]

27. Why is that important in order to know that they didn't crash in PA nt

[Guaranteed]

14. Why wouldn't it have?

Do you think the passengers were abducted? Did our government conduct secret medical experiments on them or something?

How does this all tie in to the planes that hit the WTC and the Pentagon?

Were all the phone calls home staged?

What DID happen in Shanksville?

[seriousstan]

26. C'mon, it moot. Didn't you know that?

[killtown]

28. That's all of secondary importance.

It does not deter the fact that a 757 didn't crash at Shanksville.

[Guaranteed]

31. You haven't offered anything convincing to even show THAT, at all.

Inconsistent reports of debris- POSSIBLY? So what?

A damned plane crashed into the ground at FULL SPEED.

[killtown]

33. Keep pretending the "big bad Arabs" did it

if it makes you sleep better!

:patriot:

[Guaranteed]

36. Osama bin Laden did it. He's admitted to it.

On tape.

He freaking did it.

The extent of his relationship with ChimpCo, I don't know. But he's the one that organized this thing, and everyone with an ounce of sense in their head knows it.

[philb]

81. What I heard him say on tape was he didn't do it. Which OSama

was the one you are saying admitted to doing it?
Do you have a URL?

[seriousstan]

11. Funny how the tinfoilers never answer those questions.

I guess they can only connect the imaginary dots in their heads.

[the other one]

24. Point missed. You don't get it.

How can you make that statement?

Okay, researchers have found discrepancies between what we observe and what the official story is. WHY should they know the REAL story just because they can spot the fake one. I would love to know what happened to the real plane, at this point there is no way to know. You can believe the official story, but answer me: do you have evidence for your belief, or do you just have faith in it?

[Guaranteed]

29. Scientifically- i.e., if we put together the best explanation of what

happened from the evidence- the proper conclusion is that Flight 93 crashed in Shanksville. It was tracked to that area of Pennsylvania. There are witnesses, and a rather large crater in the ground. The plane and the people are gone.

Attempting to use physics to predict what would happen to a plane that size hitting the ground at full speed is probably not going to get anyone anywhere. It's all speculative. And the theory offered by the OP falls FAR short of being convincing.

That's not to say that the plane wasn't shot down. That really SHOULD be looked into. But the damned plane crashed in Shanksville.

Why WOULDN'T it have? Is there some alternative explanation that we're all missing here? Even a MOTIVE, on ChimpCo's part, for it not to have crashed in Shanksville?

What the HELL are these people trying to do?

[killtown]

30. " "Why WOULDN'T it have?" - LoL!!!

You are obvious blind to the truth, so I'm not even going to waste any more time with you.

[Guaranteed]

34. What is your alternative explanation?

Let me put it another way:

WHY would there be an extremely elaborate conspiracy to show a plane that crashed, that apparently either did not crash or crashed somewhere else?

You're saying there was a conspiracy- and you HAVE said that. WHY?

WHY would they deliberately fake a plane crash?

[killtown]

35. *sigh* Go read the original post. It explains that at the bottom

[Guaranteed]

37. That's no kind of motive or explanation for faking a plane crash.

Why not just make it crash?

Especially when the plane and the passengers have disappeared. Your theory makes zero sense.

[zulchzulu]

49. Ever heard of Project For a New American Century? (PNAC)

"the process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event -- like a new Pearl Harbor."

PNAC's "Rebuilding America's Defenses: Strategy, Forces and Resources for the New Century"
http://www.newamericancentury.org/RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf

It's pretty easy to connect the dots...

[Guaranteed]

54. Yes, years ago. Before the war.

I was one of those that pushed PNAC as the conspiracy to dominate the world that it is here at DU. My family and friends have all been informed.

Again, what's the point of faking a plane crash? Why not just make it crash?

If it wasn't made to crash at all, then where are the people and the plane?

You act as if I'm some kind of newbie, here.

I'm on DeanU, for fuck's sake. I know you, Zulch.

[zulchzulu]

65. The plane could have been vaporized over the Altantic for all we know

It is very apparent that the crash site in PA raises more questions than answers in terms of missing wreckage, bodies, luggage, etc. Another odd thing also is the fact that cell phone calls being made at 30,000 feet were somehow achieving long and miraculous connections.

Something smells with not only the plane crash in PA but also the plane crash in DC. Both have very dubious explanations. I could go on with all the reasons for this, but frankly I'm not interested in it at the moment.

I'm pretty convinced that whatever crashed in PA was not a 757. What gets in the minds of the PNAC crowd to want to have a Pearl Harbor-type event to happen to achieve their means towards attacking Iraq is beyond my scope...it's madness.

They were following a script...the PA crash played America's heartstrings with the "Let's Roll" cell phone call...even Neil Young was duped.

Besides all this, thanks for being on DeanU.

[Guaranteed]

66. Use your reason. Why would they do that?

Why would they fake a plane crash site- in an amazingly realistic way, complete with witnesses- just to blow the thing up or whatever....over the Atlantic Ocean?

It wasn't even going in that direction, to begin with. It wasn't TRACKED to there.

Zulch, you don't have to hang onto this garbage to get at some kind of LIHOP or even MIHOP.

We have to look at the RELATIONSHIPS.

[zulchzulu]

73. The F-16 circling Fliight 77 and white mystery plane...

...seen by dozens of witnesses...the fact that bodies and other evidence found miles from the site....again, more questions than answers...

Read this:
http://www.flight93crash.com/second-plane-at-flight93-crash-site.htm

[Guaranteed]

77. I'm totally open to them having shot it down.

I've already made that clear.

However, I see no reason that this wasn't the crash site. A conspiracy to fake a crash site doesn't make sense. That's what I'm saying.

[dailykoff]

78. If they blew it to smithereens, it wouldn't have crashed

and if it didn't crash, there wasn't any "let's roll."

My guess is they loaded it full of patsies from the various flights who thought they were playing a wargame and then got rid of them.

[smitty]

7. Yawn.

[marmar]

8. Yes, there's something real faux...

about that "crash" and the Pentagon "crash." I'm surprised more experts on aviation disasters haven't spoken up. Or maybe they have and just been completely ignored.

[hack89]

32. Or perhaps they see nothing wrong? nt

[killtown]

40. What, are they blind or something?

or just intimidated and/or paid off?

[hack89]

43. Or, unlike you, they are experts in the field of crash investigations?

But then that is too simple, isn't it?

[killtown]

48. Where's the thousands of gallons of fuel Hack?

Ya know, the kind that should have burned the grass around the crater's rim?

[hack89]

50. I don't know - let me find a real expert to explain it to me. nt

[killtown]

51. Come on Hack, it's not rocket science.

Flight 93 crash site...




A REAL plane crash site...

[hack89]

53. Unlike you, I know my limitations

I have never seen a real crash site and I have no idea what it would look like - just like you.

[Guaranteed]

58. To think that even experts can make accurate predictions about what

would happen at a speed like that is pretty naive.

And, it is entirely possible that pieces of the plane fell off before impact.

[killtown]

60. How did they manage to fall off before impact?

(this ought to be good.)

[Guaranteed]

62. A bomb? A missile from one of our jet fighters? nt

[killtown]

63. Oh, so the gov't wouldn' commit a conspiracy in faking the crash

but they would be shooting it down and covering it up. Gotcha ya!

[Guaranteed]

64. Well- that would actually make sense, wouldn't it?

I mean, since you've shown no motive whatsoever to fake a plane crash.

The motive for shooting down a plane and not admitting it is pretty clear, though. That I know that, alone, should tell you something about how "out there" you're getting with your theory.

[killtown]

67. here, read this entire document

you might learn something...

http://killtown.blogspot.com/2006/04/operation-northwoods.html

[Guaranteed]

68. I already read your OP. Once again, that shows no motive for FAKING

a plane crash.

Why not make it an ACTUAL crash- like the one that HAPPENED IN SHANKSVILLE? EXACTLY THE WAY IT HAPPENED?

***
*Conspiracy-wise, what was wrong with EXACTLY the way it happened?*
***

If no one was killed- and why on Earth would someone executing such a conspiracy give TWO SHITS about saving lives- WHERE are the people? And the plane?!?

What about the witnesses? The air traffic controllers? The wreckage that WAS found? What DID happen there?

[killtown]

70. Why don't you ask the perps what their motives were

I'm not a mind reader.

[Guaranteed]

72. The perps are all dead. nt

[killtown]

59. Just go look at all previous crashes

and learn how the Flight 93 one was different than all pre and post-9/11 crashes!

[hack89]

76. The experts don't seem to have a problem with it...

and you are not an expert. Why do you seem to have such a problem with that?

[SmokingJacket]

10. I believe it was shot down.

Exploded in midair; debris fell many miles away, which wouldn't happen if it just crashed.

[Guaranteed]

15. THAT I would most definitely believe.

With all the time that had passed at that point, they SHOULD have shot it down by then, if not earlier.

[killtown]

18. If it was shot down, it was NOT shot down over Shanksville

No 757 crashed there.

[seriousstan]

22. NOW I KNOW WHY WE HAVE A 9/11 DUNGEON FULL OF FOOLS.

Any question of reason is MOOT. lol

[petgoat]

75. I disagree. The timing was very strange. According to the

9CR, Cheney did not issue the shootdown order until 10:10 to 10:15, and they're not sure when he
got authorization to do so.

If the plane was headed for DC, it would have been over Blair Witch territory for another
ten minutes. The passengers were preparing to storm the cockpit, and the FBI was in touch
with the phone call recipients and so should have known this. The cockpit tape can even be
interpreted as showing that the passengers had taken control.

There was at least one pilot among the passengers of the plane.

[Javaman]

17. Given everything thing that has happened since 9/11, do you

really believe him* when he says that 911 was an act of terrorism????

he lies about everything why should he tell the truth about 911???

It's all bullshit. MIHOP.

[Debunking911]

21. Selective photos.....

What those photos don't show you is the big hole in the trees to the left...

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Debunking911]

39. Insults in the place of evidence...

In other words I'm right and Killtown has nothing but personal attacks to fall back on... Typical...

[killtown]

38. Hey Debunking911, where did all the jet fuel go???

There must of been 5-6,000 gallons of fuel still on board. Where did it all go? Why didn't it cause a fire like that small leer jet crash? Why didn't it burn the hemlock around the crater and between the crash and the woods that look burnt?

[Debunking911]

42. Did you not see the photo I posted? The trees are GONE...;

from FIRE! See the black trees? What do you think made the fire?



Why don't the conspiracy theorist post ALL the photos and let the people make up their own mind. Why the insults and half truths?

[killtown]

46. Yet the hemlock grass right up to the crater's edge is NOT

Hmmmm.




Where's the crater in the woods again? I just see results of a fire bomb being launched in the woods by the military.

[libertypirate]

79. Believe me you can't see it but they said it was there on TV..

Too bad you could have real evidence I would really like to see that...

[DemoTex]

41. It crashed. Get over it.

Friends of mine (ALPA accident investigators, like me) worked the investigation. It was a hit-and-stick (as opposed to a hit-and-slide), so it probably went in vertical. It may have been shot down, but so what? The only problem with that is the secrecy. We all wish that they had shot down the NYC twin towers aircraft. We criticize them for not intercepting those two airliners. Then again, it may have come apart in the air due to extreme speed (way in excess of Mmo) in a dive.

I worked US Air 427 (as an ALPA accident investigator) in September 1994 at Aliquippa, Pennsylvania (near KPIT) which went in vertically from only 6000 feet. All 152 aboard were killed (again, including friends) with very little human remains at the crash site. There was a lot of tinfoil surrounding that crash, too (figuratively). But a good friend of mine, with whom I now work in his international airline safety company, put his nose to the grindstone and solved that mystery. He took on Boeing, Parker-Hannifin, the NTSB, the FAA, and a host of others to prove that it was not pilot error.

We are used to uphill battles. But the disingenuous innuendo on the web, with respect to the 9/11 crashes and others, is hard to counter.

[killtown]

44. Plane "buries" itself in the ground, yet 2 fuselage pieces

escape and land in the woods (where planted them would have been the easiest to do)???


Riiiiiiiiight.


Plus, where's the fuel?

[Debunking911]

45. Logical fallacy # 27

The majority went into the woods. If you would bother to LOOK you would see that.

And the logical fallacy your making is seeing two photos POINTED TO THE GROUND and concluding those were the only pieces of debris.

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Debunking911]

55. Pathetic...

You're about as threatening as a two year old with a rattle.

Is that going to be the extent of your debating skills? Childish threats and synatically challenged gibberish? PLEASE... Keep drinking Rev. Jones's koolaid...:crazy:

[killtown]

56. Still waiting to here why the grass around the crater

was not scorched by whatever burned the small area of trees with NO CRATER of there.


And how did those 2 big fuselage pieces escape being buried in the crater with the rest of the plane???

[DemoTex]

52. I will not criticize your opinion .. you may be right.

However, I think I covered that with the discussion of an inflight break-up due to either high Mach or a shoot-down. Either an inflight break-up or a shoot-down would/could explain any accountability for loss of FOB (fuel on board).

FOB is a very subtle area in accident investigation, and a good point by you. There was a Delta Boeing 727-200 accident at DFW a decade or so ago, where the aircraft was dispatched with one wing fuel gage on MEL (minimum equip. list). That is legal with a whole lot of backup checks including "dripping" the tank, crosschecks with fuel slips on fuel loaded, etc.. Guess what? The B-727 rolled over right after lift-off. The wing tank on MEL was empty.

Mac

[killtown]

57. If the plane was shoot down, then it SURELY didn't bury

itself 20ft underground!!!

it would have slowed and plenty of large parts would be on the ground; in and around the crater (not just tucked back in the woods where no one can see them!).

[Guaranteed]

61. It would have slowed? Why?

Remember gravity?

You're talking physics here, right?

7 miles is a long way to pick up speed at 32 ft/sec^2.

[DemoTex]

69. Gravity augmented by two powerful jets.

Nose-down, balls-to-the-wall would get you Mach 1+ in a Boeing 757. Eh?

[Guaranteed]

71. I'm saying a nose-dive like that could be damned fast.

At least the plane's maximum speed- right?

Are you saying it wouldn't be?

[DemoTex]

74. No, I am saying that it would far exceed the Mmo of the 757.

I am saying that in a power-on nose-dive, a Boeing 757 could far exceed the speed of sound AND the structural limitations of the airframe design.

Mac

[killtown]

80. Great pic showing 757 in Shanksville crater!

I think the 757 scale is a little too big, but it gives you the sense of the absurdity that a 757 crashed there!

[Lithos]

82. Locking

Thread has gotten too personal and too confrontational.

Lithos
9/11 Moderator