Flight 93 movie. Is this just more gov't propaganda? Assume the position

[Pryderi]

I was thinking about Robert Wuhl on HBO. He said that history is popular culture and quoted from the movie from "Who Shot Liberty Valance". The quote was; "When legend becomes fact, print the legend"

Did they ever recover wreckage or bodies from flight 93?

[lostexpectation]

1. FFS PAUL GREENGRASS IS A SOCIALIST FROM THE UK ITS NOT JUST PROPAGANDA

he has done many straigthforward but grity films on similar tragedies.

nobody knows what really happened.

Read about him.

[Stinky The Clown]

2. Flight 93, like the WTC and Pentagon, was a true horror .... but .....

we have ..... what? ..... in the way of facts with respect to what happened on 93?

We have the cockpit voice recorder. We have (I think) a few phone call recordings, contemporaneous memories of a few more.

And from that, it is quite possible to glean some facts and base some speculation on those facts.

But a movie purporting to 'tell the story'. Sorry, counseller, but I object. You're asserting facts not in evidence.

[Pryderi]

13. All I've ever seen of the crash site is a scorched piece of earth

One question, “is what happened to the physical wreckage of the plane?”

“There was no plane,” Ernie Stull, mayor of Shanksville, told German television in March 2003:

“My sister and a good friend of mine were the first ones there,” Stull said. “They were standing on a street corner in Shanksville talking. Their car was nearby, so they were the first here—and the fire department came. Everyone was puzzled, because the call had been that a plane had crashed. But there was no plane.”

“They had been sent here because of a crash, but there was no plane?” the reporter asked.

“No. Nothing. Only this hole.”

[stray cat]

14. And the hypothesis is there are no people who died?

All of the grieving families are not really grieving and are faking it all? I suspect it is more likely that Ernie Stull is wrong.

[Andre II]

26. Difference

Questioning if a plane really crashed there doesn't necessarily imply that the passengers are still alive. On the contrary. Assuming 911 was an inside job and no plane crashed in Shanksville basically implies that the passengers yho boarded the plane were killed somewhere else.

[Igel]

18. Brinkema ordered the exhibits from the Moussaoui

(damn the French spelling of a Moroccan Arabic name) trial to be make public. There's a website with all the photos and scans of various documents.

Huge sucker of a site. Anyway, there are additional pictures showing plane bits, or at least what are described as plane bits buried in the images. Some could have been parts of a turbine.

Google it if you're interested.

[bluestateguy]

3. I'm going to watch it

and I'm going to watch Oliver Stone's movie about the rescue of 2 Port Authority workers from Ground Zero. I don't like it when people bash movies before seeing them. That's what conservatives did to F. 9/11.

[Poppyseedman]

4. Ask the family members who buried their dead.

Did they ever recover wreckage or bodies from flight 93?

Melodie Homer marked the first birthday of her daughter, Laurel, last week without her husband, United Flight 93 First Officer LeRoy Homer. Her mother, Ena Thorpe, holding Laurel in the background, came from her home in Canada to stay with her in Marlton, N.J. after her husband died in the Sept. 11 crash. (Lake Fong, Post-Gazette)



LeRoy Homer Jr.
dot.gifFirst Officer, United Airlines, 36, Marlton, N.J. (Family photo atop sympathy card)
Wife, Melodie; daughter, Laurel, 1
He was on duty in his sixth year at United

[Poppyseedman]

5. Do you want me to post all forty pictures?

[Andre II]

27. Again

questioning if a plane really crashed in Shanksville doesn't imply one assumes that the death of the passengers have been faked.
Please tell me:
Did the witnesses on 911 who have been at the crash site have been sure that a plane caused the crater?
What is the biggest piece of debris that was found on 911?
How long did it take the coroner before he saw the first sign of human remains?
What was the biggest piece of human remain found on 911?
What was till today the biggest piece of human remains found at the crash site?
If you do your research I'm sure you'll see that having photos of all dead passengers and crew members does in NO way answer the question if a plane crashed in Shanksville or not.

[longship]

6. Yes, they recovered both.

Take off your tin foil hat. Of course they recovered the wreckage and bodies. They also recovered the black boxes.

I think there's enough info on Flight 93 that we can be pretty darn sure that passenger action had something to do with its crashing. The phone calls to loved ones and Flight Phone operators are close to unimpeachable. People who claim that something else happened likely have an agenda other than finding the truth.

Concerning the movie, Hollywood does not seem to be able to portray known facts without engrandizing them and making up all sorts of extra shit. Even when all the facts are known, Hollywood turns it into an alternative reality, with extraneous love stories, made up characters, and trashy subplots. To portray the events of Flight 93, where nobody knows precisely what happened, as non-fiction would be utter folly. I would hope that the director will make sure that a caveat is prominently displayed at the beginning of the movie stating that the movie is speculative fiction.

On edit: BTW, I will likely see Flight 93.

[Andre II]

28. Sorry

but not only are the phone calls full of contradictions in all basic details, eg number of passengers killed during flight, if there was a hijacker guarding them or not, if he had a bomb or not etc etc.
Last but not least THREE minutes after the passenger attack is supposed to have started the one who mainly organized it, Jeremy Glick, was still at the phone with his wife who told him that the WTC just collapsed....
Also the possibility of having conversations with a cell phone at cruising altitude, eg Tom Burnett's first two calls, are highly questionable.

[stray cat]

7. Terrorism does happen and evil does exist

and people really do die. All the evil in the world is not packaged in the single person of W.

[fortyfeetunder]

8. No, I am weary of all this post-9/11 publicity.

This is the nth time I've seen re-enactments of Flight 93 and all the publicity it foisted on us. IMHO, it is yet another distraction to understanding the reason to why 9/11 really happened.

Four and a half years later we have little to show for the explanation for 9/11, other than the ongoing trial for one of the "surviving hijackers", and a war without meaning.

I am certainly not going to pay for seeing that movie.

[MichiganVote]

9. This is the American Entertainment's idea of ..well..entertainment

Gruesome.

[lostexpectation]

15. Same director did a film about OMAGH BOMB + a racist police investigation

hello any intelligent people out there?

[MichiganVote]

16. I hope like hell it bombs

[Hippo_Tron]

10. When I saw the preview...

I asked my friend if I was going to hell for predicting that it would suck.

[ewagner]

11. I think I understand

why some DUers (and some liberals in general) would have a built-in bias against this movie and others concerning the events of Sept. 11. So much of the emotion of that day and those events has been "branded" by the Bush* Administration and used to justify causes that had nothing to
do with the tragedies of that day, that we are rightly suspicious of any movie about it.

The proper thing to do would be to wait until it has been out for a while and evaluate it objectively...but we've still got the scars from waiting like that before....you know, "once burned, twice shy".

I won't join in the pre-criticism but I won't condemn those who do because I know where you're coming from..

[lostexpectation]

17. Ignoring information heres another fourty DU'ers at it

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=928373&mesg_id=936960

I pointed out the directors bona fide here and another 40 DU'ers ignored well done them!

[melody]

12. I'm very solidly behind a possible MIHOP or LIHOP, BUT...

I also know someone who was in the room when the full cockpit recording was played for the families. It was clear to all those present that events happened as they've been depicted to have happened. A few
people got together and stormed the cockpit. If it had happened in any other country, we wouldn't have
trouble believing it did. These people just happened to have been (primarily) American.

Regardless of how it came about, all the people on board that plane died. For their families' sake, I'd sooner history see them as heroes rather than helpless pawns in Bush's game.

[tn-guy]

19. They acted heroically

The people on that plane well understood what had happened to the other 3 planes. They knew that they were in grave danger and that no matter what they were probably going to die. Nonetheless, a few of them determined that if they couldn't survive, at least they could defeat the hijackers. That is heroic in my book. It doesn't matter if Bush is God's gift to the country or the devil incarnate. I seriously doubt if anyone of those who confronted the hijackers gave a thought about politics.

Those here at DU who want to trivialize the actions of the flight 93 passengers because of political considerations are just sick in my opinion. Some things transcend politics.

[skeeters2525]

20. Heroically or Not

We want the facts. And this whole, we can't offend or bring up the memories has to go Buh Bye. There is plenty wrong with 9/11, maybe not 93, but it is still needs to be seriously looked at. Like Kennedy, the Government and media just wanted to put it away. And Away. And Away. We will never know the truth.

And we are there again. You can't point out troubling issues because it is a tragedy. I believe that is the time to speak up.

And sorry hero's family. But that is the way it will have to be.

The media ignored any questions about 9/11. And always will. Wonder why. Oh that's right, the victims don't want to be reminded.

A film is a film. Nothing more, nothing less. I'm sure Bush will use it somehow to start another war.

Think we will ever learn.

[melody]

22. Why?

Why do we need to know? There are some people who so avowedly hate Americans that no scrap of evidence that this was a heroic
act will be enough for them, any more than Bush's starry-eyed moronic masses will believe anything against him. It doesn't matter how much DC capitalizes on what happened -- the important thing is those people died horribly. They didn't die fictionally, they didn't die on a movie screen. They were flying one moment, knowing they were going to crash into something, knowing they were helpless to stop it
and instead of dying meekly like victims, a group of people DID try to take action. That plane then turned over and went spiraling into the ground at a terrific rate of speed until it crashed. Can you imagine the terror those people went through?

It's hardly surprising or uniquely American - it's what humans would do. It's not terribly difficult to accept in any other situation.
Even so, to hell with the "truth" about "93" -- all we'll get is more distortions of things we can never know. September 11th alone is enough to upend the Bush monsters.

Leave the memory of these people to be what their loved ones must think them to be.

[cboy4]

21. You know what else? The Pacific Ocean is blue because the government

is dumping billions of those blue toilet bowl cleaner tablets to hide pollution caused by companies x,y & z :eyes:

I have a friend who flies a 767 heavy jet for United, and he does not believe there's a cover-up involving UAL93.

Some DU'ers should stop trying to pretend their NTSB investigators, because I'm pretty certain you need just a tad of experience piecing together accidents before you're qualified to question why the plane didn't make a larger crater, etc.

[rman]

23. there are two movies: "Flight 93" and "United 93"

United 93:
http://www.apple.com/trailers/universal/united93/
http://www.flight93.net/

Flight 93:
http://www.aetv.com/flight_93/f93_preview.jsp


Looks like "United 93" goes by the official story, "Flight 93" a little less so.

[SaveElmer]

24. No...but I still think it is too soon

This will bomb...no one wants to relive this so quickly...

[reprehensor]

25. Early indications are...

PROPAGANDA.

http://reprehensor.gnn.tv/blogs/14421/United_93_Fact_Based_Docudrama

United 93, Fact-Based Docudrama.