George W. Bush

[Chomp]

Do you believe that GWB is a (co-)author/fellow traveller of MIHOP? Is he capable of such a thing?

I think the answer is a very clear and very emphatic no. I believe it to be completely, totally implausible that GWB was involved. Even if 9/11 was MIHOP (and I don't bleieve it was), then GWB was not involved.

There are many reasons why I believe this to be so. Here are a few.



1. 8 Months
Is that long enough for Junior to cook up the plot? Long enough to plan it? To get every detail in place? Patsy recruitment, demo squad planning, missile(s) procurement, NORAD squaring, secret service(s) secondment etc. etc. How do you pull the logistics of all that together in just 8 months?

Indeed, one of the contentions of most MIHOP advocates is that the 9/11 plot was cooking for a very long time (many years) before it was served. How does one square that circle? How could the plot have been bubbling along for years, and still have * as a co-conspirator? Was he in on it BEFORE he was POTUS? It defies logic.

Maybe * was only "let in on the plan" after he took office? Is that plausible? "Oh, by the way George, we're planning on killing thousands of Americans in a few months - you ok with that?". Inconceiveable.



2. Incompetance
Bush is so utterly incompetant that it defies belief he was involved in something that was executed so "perfectly" and covered-up so skillfully. How could the man at the helm of an administration that has failed to chalk up any significant achievements possibly pull off such an incredible feat?

My contention: if any of these fucking idiots (Junior included) were involved, they'd be in the Hague right now trying to explain away the mountain of evidence they'd clumsily left behind them.



3. He thinks he is a Patriot
Of course, he is not, he is a traitor to his country and to the US constitution. But that's not what he thinks.

Bush's form of warped patriotism would be utterly at odds with any plot to mass murder Americans. Sure, he thinks nothing of killing brown people in a faraway country, but that's simply the corollary of the self-same warped partriotism: he believes that PNAC-style American foreign policy is so inherently good and benign and blessed and righteous, that even the deaths of thousands of Iraqis is a price worth paying. Burn the village to save them. It is the patriotism of a charlatan and sociopath.

But are we to believe that this warped patriotism could ever allow for 9/11? In terms of Bush's worldview and psychology, it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.



4. Faith and death
Bush can find theological justification for selective murder. We all know how much he loves culling the unclean, the unbelieving and the "other". He uses execution and war as weapons in the fulfillment of theological prophecy. It's fucking disgusting and I despise him for it.

But is it not abundantly clear by now that Bush's bible allows for just this kind of "righteous" muder? Eye for an eye clearly allows for execution. And no doubt he could (literally) cite scripture and verse on righteous wars, especially if they have a religious element.

Add to this the fact that * has a personal and unmediated relationship with (as Hitchens puts it) "the alleged Jesus of Nazareth", and you have all you need to understand Bush's perverse love of righteous murder.

Of course, good liberals see not only the immorality but also the counter-productiveness of these approaches to problem-solving. We recognise that Bush's selective murder is nothing more than a moral safety-valve that allows him to satisfy his Evangelical need to spill blood. His God is a scary and vengeful monster. War and execution are simply forms of divine retribution.

But I can see nothing in Bush's bible that could justify (on his terms) MIHOP. Do you?




So, what do you think? Have I read *'s faith wrong? Is his lust for power and oil such that all of the above is rendered garbage? Is 8 months plenty of time? Does * think killing poor brown Muslims is the same as killing rich Americans?

Finally, remember the Andy Card moment on the morning of 9/11? Bush's face...was that a face that said "Oh, the plan is working"? No. It was a face that said: "Oh fuck. What's going on? What do I do? Who am I? What did that PDB say again? Where's Karl? Where's daddy? Oh Jesus".

[pauldp]

1. You are making one big fat assumption -

that Bush actually believes the Evangelical rhetoric. The whole Christian thing for shrub is politically calculated.
If he didn't have the 30 percent whack job fundies he would have no support at all.
This is a guy who belongs to a secret society whose members lie naked in coffins and jerk off in front of Geronimo's skull.
Come on, do you really think he is a Jesus freak?

He may not have planned it but he sure as hell knew it was coming.

[mirandapriestly]

3. I remember reading that he got his evangelical "training"

from some really "posessed" holy roller with the common touch in Texas; kind of a nutty guy. He sought this guy out. I remember thinking that he did this so that he would appeal "genuine" to the real evangelicals. He also claimed to have been converted or indoctrinated by Billy Graham who denied it.

[leftofthedial]

2. "Is that long enough for Junior to cook up the plot?"

nobody said king george was the boss.

there is no reason they would have waited until January of 2001 to start planning, so the whole "8 months" thing is a red herring.

As for "incompetence," king george is incompetent at governance. He and his gang are quite accomplished multigenerational thieves, liars and conmen. 9-11 was a con, not government. So "the whole "incompetence" section is another red herring.

"patriotism is the last refuge of scoundrels." his definition of "patriotism" allows things like grandaddy helping the Nazis, poppy executing and pardoning Iran Contra traitors and him allowing his PNAC buddies to kill a couple thousand new yorkers. the "patriotism" section is an assertion, not an argument.

history proves that the bible justifies pretty much anything someone in power wants it to justify, including many things far worse than 9-11.

[Rich Hunt]

21. As far as I can tell...

....the dust that was kicked up traces back to 1999 or so. I think that's when the "planners" became serious about it. So you have to look at what happened in that year that might make them think about it.

[rman]

4. I don't think anyone is making an argument that W was involved

in the planning and/or execution of the plans. He's just a front-man; a puppet, knowingly and willingly.

[mirandapriestly]

7. Yeah, kind of like the one who "signed off" on it.

IOW, JFK refused to give the OK to the Northwoods plan, which effectively ended it. Junior said yeah sure go ahead!

[Avalux]

5. Bush is faithless, godless.

I have absolutely no reason to think his public religious image is real; it was developed for the benifit of the fundies in the Republican party. Bush is a gambler, an addict; and you can be sure he'd bet the farm to benefit his own dark ego. He doesn't give a damn about this country or any of the people who live in it.

The Bush family and those in their circle (quite a few from the Nixon administration) have been trying to figure out a way to gain complete and total power for a number of years. Karl Rove has publicly stated his one goal in life is to change the course of American history and insure the country is ruled by one party indefinitely - Republicans.

If it was MIHOP, Bush was not the mastermind, but a willing accomplice. He is incredibly self-centered and would do anything to insure his place in history as a great President.

Since the beginning of mankind, horrible atrocities have been committed by human beings against other human beings in the name of power and control. Nothing has changed.

[Grateful for Hope]

15. I agree

and, the lone philosophy class I took as an under-grad left me with one "truth" -- all people who seek power (as in elected office) are suspect. Bush is a very extreme example of this.

[Chomp]

6. I still don't understand

Here are 4 quotes from above posts

"He may not have planned it but he sure as hell knew it was coming".

"nobody said king george was the boss".

"He's just a front-man; a puppet, knowingly and willingly".

"If it was MIHOP, Bush was not the mastermind, but a willing accomplice."



I don't quite understand what these mean.

How specifically would you characterise Bush's involvement? When did he know about the plot? Was he really willing to merely be the puppet whilst all this went on around him?

I still don't have a clear idea what involvement people think he had, nor a reasonble time-frame to go along with it.

Basically, the oldest question in political hackery: What did he know and when did he know it?

[mirandapriestly]

8. The Northwoods Plan was stopped at JFK's desk

He could have Ok'ed it and history would be different, but he said no and fired the guy responsible. The Neocons have been trying to gain control for years. GWB has given them their opportunity.
"A new Pearl Harbor" was planned by PNAC years ago. Cheney, Wolfowitz, even Jeb Bush sat in on the meeting, but not GW.

People think this administration is "incompetent" but they are assuming that Bush & Co actually wanted to "win" and get out of Iraq. There is also the opinion that they want total instability in the Middle East and to this end they are successful. Also they may want to bankrupt the government so as to dis empower it and people's dependence on it. Same with Katrina, they want people to get the idea that government is not going to help them in the future. I even heard some gov't shill on NPR (which is slowly becoming more conservative) say that people have to get the idea that the government is not going to help them when the bird flu hits, it was really weird. To the Bush administration none of this is failure.

[Chomp]

9. Hi Miranda

Bush "signed off" on it?

When?

[mirandapriestly]

12. I don't think anyone

brought a piece of paper to his desk and surrounded by smiling senators looking over his shoulder he signed it. I think it was probably decided in a similar way that it was decided to release the name of Valerie Plame. Look how long it took for Patrick Fitzgerald to find out about Bush's giving Libby the go ahead to talk about Plame, do you think he started his investigation knowing "when" it was decided? The first thing he found out was the perjury, and that leads to everything else. All we can do is look at what HAS happened to fill in the blanks about what might have happened. What difference does it make WHEN exactly? Most of us draw conclusions from anomalies such as the cover up surrounding 911 and historic precedents such as the Northwood plan,PNAC. We aren't coming out of nowhere. Due to the fact that this is the most secretive administration most of us have ever seen, it's not likely that we are going to have an exact date.

[rman]

10. Also JFK could not have withdrawn military support for the Bay of Pigs,

at the last moment, so that it would not have been the fiasco that it was. Then to history would have been different.

It's often difficult to figure out just how much control a president has over his own government. It depends on his agenda, his support network, his political cleverness. It's a whole lot easier if he has the same or a similar agenda as the crooks in the agencies who run the show. So much for W's "hard work". Formally the president is responsible for everything the government does, in practice he doesn't hold all the cards to make things happen or to prevent things from happening.
Usually it is only in hindsight that we can have some hope of getting anywhere near to revealing how the balance of power in the presidency actually was.
The case of JFK shows what happens when the president goes to far. In all likelihood Kennedy underestimated the amount of power that "they" have.

[mirandapriestly]

18. Yeah, it isn't until this current "administration"

that I realized that there was a "group" of people who held power that we don't even know much about. They seem to have really been able to gain control with junior. I do think that W has some final say as came out in the Fitzgerald investigation.

A lot of people think Cheney "did" 911 while GWB sort of floated aimlessly that day. I do think the (so called) President was "in the loop".

[rman]

11. I think W didn't know very much, and not very soon

But he understood the gist of it, and he went along.

If justice would be done then W would go behind bars along with the rest of them, but as an accomplice before the fact, not as one of the brains or chiefs.

I really don't think Bush is very bright. Someone has to be the front man, it is probably worth his while and i gather it may be considered something of an honour. Not to many crooks get to be president of the US during times such as we are experiencing now. These times, the events, are unprecedented in their own right.

[Chomp]

13. Again

though rman - and at the risk of being boringly repetitive - I don't undestand how your description of events would play out in the real world.

You say: "But he understood the gist of it, and he went along".

But how and when was he aware of the "gist" of it? Was the plot in the planning for years and W only let in on it late in the day? Or was he given a few broad brush strokes but no detail upon becoming POTUS?

Are you saying it was somthing like Cheney saying to him: "There is going to be a major event that will greatly help us to move forward our agenda. It's all set - ok?".

This is an honest question: is that the kind of scenario you are putting forward?

....

LeftofDial - thanks for your response. You said:

"there is no reason they would have waited until January of 2001 to start planning, so the whole "8 months" thing is a red herring."

I don't think it's a red herring at all, as it is central to the key 9/11 question: Who knew what and when? I think this is absolutely central.

Your response implies you think the plot was being hatched before Jan '01. And my question is: was * ivolved in that planning?

Because one of the following 4 things MUST be the true:

1. Bush knew nothing all along
2. Bush co-authored the plot AFTER becoming POTUS
3. Bush co-authored the plot BEFORE becoming POTUS
4. He only learned about an existing plot once he became POTUS and tacitly went along

Which one is it? None make sense to me. You seem to be implying either 3 or 4. Is that right?

[dailykoff]

14. Yes, it was planned for years, and yes, Junior knew

about it. Brother Marvin was directly connected to the WTC, Cheney and many others were connected via massive asbestos liabilities, PNAC needed a showstopper, and the intel guys (the other family business) had been whacking at it since '93.

[rman]

19. Something like that (Cheney saying..)

Though it wasn't necessarily Cheney who told him, and not necessarily at that late a date. Jeb Bush is/was with PNAC when the neocons were putting forth the foreign policy they are now putting to practice. Possibly they hadn't yet planned to execute or facilitate their "new Pearl Harbor" at that early a stage.
I think W knew before he became president. I don't think VP Cheney taking the rest neocon gang on board (appointing them as secretaries) was much of a surprise to W.

[Grateful for Hope]

17. You HAVE to be British (or Canadian).

Your "humour" gives you away...LOL!

I agree with everything you are saying. I think Bush knew but really didn't "know". IMHO, he is merely a pawn.

[Grateful for Hope]

16. I think Bush is a pawn n/t

[Rich Hunt]

20. If he was involved, then how?

I mean, the President has a ridiculously busy schedule, he's never alone...

I would just like someone to explain how that sort of communication might have gone down.

[johnnie]

22. I don't think he had a choice in the matter

The world is bigger than some pipsqueak moron. George isn't bright enough to put two words together let alone pull off something like that. If this was MIHOP or LIHOP, bush had little to do with it and nothing to say about it in my opinion.

[dailykoff]

23. He had all the power in the world,

literally, and he used it to commit a horrific atrocity.

Mental midget he may be but when he took the oath of office, he took control of the official levers of power, and apparently even those weren't enough.

[CJCRANE]

31. Exactly.

Karl Rove isn't called "Bush's Brain" for nothing.

[Chomp]

24. I find

it incredible that some people think that this little man has the fortitude, intelligence and cunning to be involved in 9/11 and its subsequent cover-up.

He is a WEAK man. How can some of you credit him with the guts and guille to go through with it? Where did this little failure of a man get the balls big enough to do it?

9/11 and cover-up needed brains, organisation, discipline and cunning. Not exactly George's strong suits.

Iraq? Differnt thing altogether. Iraq required ZERO balls. All it required was stupidity, ignornace, hubris and duplicity. Well, * has plenty of those things, and thus the Iraq fiasco is easily explicable. A totally different kettle of fish to 9/11. Any suggestion that George would look upon the 2 as the same is, I think, very naive.

And how has * gone 5 years without letting even the slightest clue slip that he was involved? He is a fuccking moron there is no way he would have the smarts to keep the whole thing so hush-hush. Utterly impossible for that gimp.

(Now, someone might mention the "seeing the first planbe hit on TV" remarks. But IMO these remarks are simply part of his effort to cover-up one of the REAL scandals surrounding 9/11: what was George doing that day? THAT is a question that needs answering. But the remarks are not evidence of him leting slip MIHOP)

...

Also, I'm still very confused by the myriad potential timelines people are positing.

I find it next to impossible to believe that Good Ole George was aware of this plot while he was still in Texas. Is anyone thinking he was? I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth, but some posts above certainly imply this. Does that stack up with what we know of idiot boy back then? No way. That was NOT a man involved in plot to mass murder. No way.

So, the other possibility - that he becasme aware of it and sort of just went along, Chimping away in public and being a good boy for his masters in private. All I can say about this view is that IMO it totally defies every bit of logic about politics that I have ever learned. On so many levels it doesn't stack up.

What if Geroge didn't go along and blew the whistle? What if he lost the election? What if the plot was uncovered? What if idiot boy cracked under the pressure and blurted it out to a hack? What if Monkeyboy demanded that he command operations on the day?

I'm sorry, but with respect I cannot get my head around any of it.

[dailykoff]

25. All he needed was a black heart

and an evil mind. His "staff" brought him the idea and handled all the details.

He's the decider, remember?

[Chomp]

26. Thanks for that

extraordinarily patronising reply. Appreciated.


Peace.

[rman]

29. patronising? how's that?

[CJCRANE]

28. He flew back to Washington

in the middle of the night to sign the Schiavo bill.

On edit: He sat listening to children read a story about goats as the two tallest buildings in America were burning to the ground with 50,000 people inside.

He ignored the Katrina hurricane and turned up four days late.

Nothing he does makes sense to a normal human being.

[mirandapriestly]

33. Well, HE didn't do any of it.

Just like he isn't over dying in Iraq and he got out of Vietnem. He just benefits from it.

[Sinti]

27. Don't just others by what you might or might not do yourself.

An honest woman thinks nothing of leaving their purse on the chair next to them, where a thief could easily access her wallet. A liar will expect you're lying, a thief will expect you to steal also.

1. 8 Months - If this was a false flag operation, it took much longer than 8 months to conceive, plan, and make operational, no question.

"Oh, by the way George, we're planning on killing thousands of Americans in a few months - you ok with that?". Inconceiveable

What on earth makes you think George gives a rat's a$$ about the average American? He has done absolutely nothing to give me such confidence, and that's only in his public actions. What he might agree to behind closed doors is something I don't care to contemplate.

2. Incompetance - I'll not delve into *'s intelligence or lack thereof, but I promise you he has some of the keenest, most devious minds in our country working for him at present. Some have been there since the Nixon administration, through Reagan/Bush, and now with junior.

They may have failed to chalk up any significant achievements in your mind, but ask the stockholders and top management at Halliburton (and their subsidiaries), all of our oil companies, Carlyle, and every other defense contractor out there. They have achieved much more than we could have imagined before he entered that office.

Saying they don't have the intelligence to do such a thing is just silly. Of course they could.

3. He thinks he is a Patriot - I don't presume to know what * thinks, and neither should you BTW, but patriotism is merely a tool that folks like this use to get young men and women to fight and die for their blood money. I have never seen any proof otherwise. He's selling us up the river as we speak.

4. Faith and death - All Neocons are pro-religion. That doesn't mean they're men of faith. Religion is an opiate for the masses, it keeps them quiet. Men don't demand earthly justice when they believe they will receive their just rewards in heaven. Additionally, it's very hard to argue with a man based on his religious convictions. The lame adage "I only have my blind faith to rely on," makes sensible men roll their eyes and end the conversation. America has a lot of religious folks, "I've been saved" means a lot to them. They'll excuse his behavior precisely because he says he's been saved.

And as to *'s expression when Card gave him the news, it looked to me like he was thinking, "Okay, just be patient. He just looked up at the ceiling. He did not look AT ALL shocked." Don't you think he would have at least had an intake of break, and think "OHMYGOD!" Nope, nothing. It was just another day for him. Though, I again don't presume to know what he was thinking by means of his expression. His complete lack of action, and the SS's, is quite damning though.

[Chomp]

32. Hi Sinti

Thanks for your thoughtful response to my OP.

I guess we'll just have to disagree!

But I do find it odd that you would consider 9/11 to be just another example of Bush fucking-over normal Americans. Sure, he has been a monster to so many people. But 9/11? That's just a dfferent scale of nastiness than even he is capable of.


Peace.

[Sinti]

34. It may sound funny, but I wish I could believe what you do

Time and experience has made far too cynical for my own health :)

[CJCRANE]

30. Your assumption that

B*sh is anti-muslim and pro-American doesn't stack up.

He is pro-elites (the "have-mores"). Everyone thinks he hates muslims because he invaded Iraq. Invading Iraq was purely down to business. B*sh has close links with lots of muslims, particularly the royals in Saudi Arabia and UAE (not to mention the CIA renditions people to muslim countries like Egypt etc).

Sitting around while the twin towers burned to the ground is prrof enough that he doesn't care for Americans. Virtually everyone in the whole f*cking world was glued to the TV/internet trying to find out what was going on...

The there's Katrina. The whole world watched the hurricane approach NO from a week before. It four days after the event for * to react.