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This clip definitely shows signs that explosives were used in WTC 2

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boastOne43 Donating Member (71 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-11-06 03:32 AM
Original message
This clip definitely shows signs that explosives were used in WTC 2
Edited on Thu May-11-06 03:54 AM by boastOne43
This clip definitely shows signs that explosives were used in WTC 2. Watch for vertical rows of blow outs or squibs occurring on the left center edge of the building.

WTC 2 collapse close-up (Flash format)
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Debunking911 Donating Member (270 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-11-06 09:43 AM
Response to Original message
1. I disagree (What a surprise, I know)
This site tries to grab onto any shimmer of light from a mile away to suggest definitive proof the towers were blown up.

Here is the same collapse but closer. Note the falling aluminum cladding without the large puff of smoke from any explosion. It's only when the building is already pancaking that you see debris ejecting from the windows.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5405555553528290546&q=WTC&pl=true
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boastOne43 Donating Member (71 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-11-06 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. but...
if you watch the clip you will see that these so-called "pressure squibs from pancaking" appear on floors below other squibs above them even start to appear. how do you explain that?
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Debunking911 Donating Member (270 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-11-06 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. This is that you see but in more detail..


Where are the "Squibs"?
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Tobias Donating Member (93 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-11-06 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Thank you for you work here, debunking911! NT
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boastOne43 Donating Member (71 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-11-06 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. That image is static...
for one and the collapsing captured in the original clip above happens after that photo was taken. You can clearly see vertical rows of squibs along the left face, close to the corner edge of the building. It shows 3 medium sized ones and then, directly above those, 3 smaller ones (in a vertical row) appear.
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Ezlivin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-11-06 09:49 AM
Response to Original message
2. Nah, that's just gravity
Don't forget that gravity (the most POWERFUL force in the whole universe) had been working on WTC2 for decades, patiently pulling the building down with all of its might. It was just waiting for one weakness in the building so that it could quickly accordion the whole structure.

The flashes and puffs of smoke emanating from all the floors just shows you how quickly gravity can do its job. The upper floors were instantly moved downward so fast that they pushed the air out of the windows. The flashes you see are just the breakage of many lightbulbs in the office ceiling.

And since gravity only pulls objects straight down, it was totally impossible for the building to fall to one side or the other, even if the damage was not symmetrical.
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m0nkeyneck Donating Member (274 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-11-06 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. gravity is the weakest force...
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-11-06 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. no when you factor in time
and disinformation
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Ezlivin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-15-06 09:19 AM
Response to Reply #5
31. I knew that
:)

My post was pure sarcasm, perhaps at too great a level to be distinguished from those who quickly rush to defend the official story.

I was hoping someone would point out the error in saying "gravity's the most powerful force in the universe." Yeah!
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Debunking911 Donating Member (270 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-11-06 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. The top tilted
You sound like you expect the columns (which are bolted together on every floor) on just one side of the building to hold the wieght the 30 story office building without coming apart. You sound like you are just repeating what the conspiracy sites told you.

"And since gravity only pulls objects straight down"

On earth that's just what gravity does. Can you show gravity pulling sideways?

This "symmetrical" fall is conspiracy theory invention. The FLOORS fell straight down but the outer perimeter columns peeled away. Or how else do you explain this...

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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-11-06 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. The top tilted
you expect the columns... on just one side of the building to hold the wieght the 30 story office building without coming apart.

According to NIST the perimeter columns were undamaged on two sides, less than 60% damaged on the impact
side, and only 10% damaged on the other side. You also leave out the structural contribution of the
core columns.

Your wild assumptions, while necessary to the maintenance of your complacency, do not aid your
credibility.




http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/nist/

The WTC was greatly overbuilt, as all modern structures are.



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Debunking911 Donating Member (270 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-11-06 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. You seem to be forgetting
Edited on Thu May-11-06 07:04 PM by Debunking911
the columns being pulled in over time. I know this is difficult for conspiracy theorist who assume everyone with a different view is helping mass murders but that's just a fact you can't get around. You can try to character assassinate me but it doesn't change the fact that the columns were pulled in slowly over time due to the sagging trusses. I also wont let you forget there is a difference between what the airliners did and what the fires contributed too. You can give the condition of the building on impact but that's not the whole NIST report and I know you know it. You seem to be purposely leaving important information out just to make the NIST report look flawed. Put it all on the table then see what people think.

Probable Collapse Sequence for WTC 1

1. Aircraft Impact Damage:
•Aircraft impact severed a number of exterior columns on the North wall from floors 93 to 98, and the wall section above the impact zone moved downward.

•After breaching the building’s perimeter, the aircraft continued to penetrate into the building, severing floor framing and core columns at the North side of the core. Core columns were also damaged toward the center of the core and, to a limited extent on the South side of the core. Fireproofing was damaged from the impact area to the South perimeter wall, primarily through the center of WTC 1 and at least over a third to a half of the core width.

•Aircraft impact severed a single exterior panel at the center of the South wall between floors 94 and 96.

•The impact damage to the exterior walls and to the core resulted in redistribution of severed column loads, mostly to the columns adjacent to the impact zones. The hat truss resisted the downward movement of the North wall, and rotated about the East-West axis.

•As a result of the aircraft impact damage, the North and South walls each carried about 7 percent less gravity loads after impact, and the East and West walls each carried about 7 percent more loads. The core carried about 1 percent more gravity loads after impact.



2. Effects of Subsequent Fires and Impact Damaged Fireproofing:

A. Thermal Weakening of the Core:

•The undamaged core columns developed high plastic and creep strains over the duration the building stood, since both temperatures and stresses were high in the core area. The plastic and creep strains exceeded thermal expansion in the core columns.

•The shortening of the core columns (due to plasticity and creep) was resisted by the hat truss which unloaded the core over time and redistributed loads to perimeter walls.

•As a result of the thermal weakening (and subsequent to impact and prior to inward bowing of the South wall), the North and South walls each carried about10 percent more gravity loads, and the East and West walls each carried about 25 percent more loads. The core carried about 20 percent less gravity loads after thermal weakening.

B. Thermal Weakening of the Floors:

•Floors 95 to 99 weakened with increasing temperatures over time on the long-span floors and sagged. The floors sagged first and then contracted due to cooling on the North side; fires reached the South side later, the floors sagged, and the seat connections weakened.

•Floor sagging induced inward pull forces on the South wall columns.

•About 20 percent of the connections to the South perimeter wall on floors 97 and 98 failed due to thermal weakening of the vertical supports.

C. Thermal Weakening of the South Wall:

•South wall columns bowed inward as they were subjected to high temperatures and inward pull forces in addition to axial loads.
•Inward bowing of the South wall columns increased with time.




3. Collapse Initiation
•The inward bowing of the South wall induced column instability, which progressed rapidly horizontally across the entire South face.

•The South wall unloaded and tried to redistribute the loads via the hat truss to the thermally weakened core and via the spandrels to the adjacent East and West walls.

•The entire section of the building above the impact zone began tilting as a rigid block (all four faces; not only the bowed and buckled South face) to the South (at least about 8º) as column instability progressed rapidly from the South wall along the adjacent East and West walls.

•The change in potential energy due to downward movement of building mass above the buckled columns exceeded the strain energy that could be absorbed by the structure. Global collapse then ensued.

Probable Collapse Sequence for WTC 2

1.Aircraft Impact Damage:

•Aircraft impact severed a number of exterior columns on the South wall from floors 78 to 84, and the wall section above the impact zone moved downward.

•After breaching the building’s perimeter, the aircraft continued to penetrate into the building, severing floor framing and core columns at the Southeast corner of the core. Fireproofing was damaged from the impact area through the East half of the core up to the North and East perimeter walls. The floor truss seat connections over about 1/4to 1/2 of the East side of the core were severed on floors 80 and 81 and over about 1/3 of the East perimeter wall on floor 83.

•Aircraft impact severed a few columns near the East corner of the North wall between floors 80 and 82.

•The impact damage to the exterior walls resulted in redistribution of severed column loads, mostly to the columns adjacent to the impact zones. The impact damage to the core columns resulted in redistribution of severed column loads mostly to other intact core columns and the East exterior wall. The hat truss resisted the downward movement of the South wall, and rotated about the East-West axis.

•As a result of the aircraft impact damage, the core carried 6 percent less gravity loads after impact and the North face carried 10 percent less loads. The East face carried 24 percent more gravity load, while the West face and the South face carried 3 percent and 2 percent more gravity load, respectively.

•After impact, the core was leaning toward the East and South perimeter walls. The perimeter walls acted to restrain the core structure.



2.Effects of Subsequent Fires and Impact Damaged Fireproofing:

A. Thermal Weakening of the Core:

•Several of the undamaged core columns near the damaged and severed core columns developed high plastic and creep strains over the duration the building stood, since both temperatures and stresses were high in the core area. The plastic and creep strains exceeded thermal expansion in the core columns.

•The core continued to tilt toward the East and South due to the combination of column shortening (due to plasticity, creep, and buckling) and the failure of column splices at the hat truss in the Southeast corner.

•As a result of thermal weakening (and subsequent to impact), the East wall carried about 5 percent more gravity loads and the core carried about 2 percent less loads. The other three walls carried between 0 and 3 percent less loads.

B. Thermal Weakening of the Floors:

•Floors 79 to 83 weakened with increasing temperatures over time on the long-span floors on the East side and sagged.

•Floor sagging induced inward pull forces on the East wall columns.

•About an additional 1/3 of the connections to the East perimeter wall on floor 83 failed due to thermal weakening of the vertical supports.

C. Thermal Weakening of the East Wall:

•East wall columns bowed inward as they were subjected to high temperatures and inward pull forces in addition to axial loads.

•Inward bowing of the East wall columns increased with time.

3. Collapse Initiation

•The inward bowing of the East wall induced column instability, which progressed rapidly horizontally across the entire East face.

•The East wall unloaded and tried to redistribute the loads via the hat truss to the weakened core and via the spandrels to the adjacent North and South walls.

•The entire section of the building above the impact zone began tilting as a rigid block (all four faces; not only the bowed and buckled East face) to the East (about 7ºto 8º) and South (about 3ºto 4º) as column instability progressed rapidly from the East wall along the adjacent North and South walls. The building section above impact continued to rotate to the East as it began to fall downward, and rotated to at least 20 to 25 degrees.

•The change in potential energy due to downward movement of building mass above the buckled columns exceeded the strain energy that could be absorbed by the structure. Global collapse then ensued.

All the supporting evidence can be found on the bottom of this page..

http://www.geocities.com/debunking911/collapse.htm
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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-11-06 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. "try to character assassinate"
I wasn't character assassinating you, I was pointing out that your argument engages in
unwarrented assumptions. And now, rather address the true issue of your characterization
that columns "on just one side of the building" were holding "the wieght the 30 story
office building," which was wrong, you just throw a couple thoudand words of obfuscatory
gov't boilerplate.

it doesn't change the fact that the columns were pulled in slowly over time due to the sagging trusses.

That is in no way a fact. It is a theory.

There is no evidence that the core steel reached temperatures that weakened it.

There is no evidence that the floors sagged. Chief Orio Palmer reached the 78th floor.
Why didn't he say: "Wow! Look at that sagging floor!"

The photographs that appear to be evidence of the bowing of perimeter columns could simply be
recording the distortions of light due to hot air along the surface of the walls. It would
be nice if the authorities had saved the buckled columns. They didn't.

Sorry, but when the nursing home cremates Grandma before we had a chance to get there, we
have to suspect that something may not have been right.


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Ferry Fey Donating Member (289 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-11-06 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Destroying the evidence
It would be nice if the authorities had saved the buckled columns. They didn't.

Sorry, but when the nursing home cremates Grandma before we had a chance to get there, we have to suspect that something may not have been right.


That meme's a keeper, petgoat! :)


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Debunking911 Donating Member (270 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-14-06 12:44 AM
Response to Reply #14
17. Yes you are
Edited on Sun May-14-06 12:45 AM by Debunking911
"I was pointing out that your argument engages in unwarrented assumptions. And now, rather address the true issue of your characterization that columns "on just one side of the building" were holding "the wieght the 30 story office building," which was wrong, you just throw a couple thoudand words of obfuscatory gov't boilerplate."

You said nothing of the kind. You said:

"According to NIST the perimeter columns were undamaged on two sides, less than 60% damaged on the impact side, and only 10% damaged on the other side. You also leave out the structural contribution of the core columns."

You are leaving a hell of a lot out. The suggestion is that the remaining undamaged parts of the building were left in a static state and not subject to the slow weakening of the fires. I posted what the NIST actually said because you and others keep attacking parts of it and never giving the full extent of damage JUST before collapse.

But for a building to "tilt" over as suggested by conspiracy sites it has to pivot on something. On what if not the outer perimeter columns?

And what does "Your wild assumptions, while necessary to the maintenance of your complacency, do not aid your credibility." mean if it's not character assassination? I don't make "Wild assumptions". If they were wild assumptions, civil engineers would also think they were wild assumptions and disprove the NIST report because that's where I get it from. No one has yet.

"There is no evidence that the floors sagged. Chief Orio Palmer reached the 78th floor.
Why didn't he say: "Wow! Look at that sagging floor!"

There is a perfect example of poor research and believing conspiracy sites half truths. What they do with dead fireman's quotes are really SICK. No two ways about it. I don't blame you, I blame them...

1) The fireman was on the 78th floor where only a wing tip entered. That explains the small fires on that floor

2) The planes nose hit the 81st floor

3) The fire on the 82nd floor at the time of the collapse was severe

4) The NIST report doesn't say the fires on the 78th floor had anything to do with the collapse so even if a garbage can was the only thing on fire it doesn't matter

5) The NIST said it was the cooling and contracting of the trusses which brought the columns in. If there was little fire in the whole building at the time it would only HELP the NIST report.

This is explained in detail on this page...

http://www.geocities.com/debunking911/fire.htm



If you would just read the NIST report you would see all kinds of photographic evidence. They CAN'T just photoshop the photographs because it was one on the most photographed events in history. It would be ridiculously easy to find them out. Light distortion wouldn't show up in every camera and only on ONE wall. It just happens to be the wall that pulled in shrapely at the end...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5405555553528290546&q=WTC&pl=true

Are you going to show where these are "unwarranted assumptions" or are you going to continue to attack me without providing any evidence. Note I provide evidence for what I'm saying.
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Chomp Donating Member (602 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-14-06 09:14 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. That site is just fantastic D9/11
Edited on Sun May-14-06 09:18 AM by Chomp
You should link to it in all your posts. An amazing amount of work.


On edit: I notice it's now on your sig line. Good job.
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mirandapriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-14-06 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #18
24. It's "fantastic", alright.nt
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Chomp Donating Member (602 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-14-06 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. nt alright nt
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Bouvet_Island Donating Member (227 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-14-06 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #17
30. Your site
is complete and pompous distracting bollocks.

http://www.geocities.com/debunking911/moltensteel.htm

Is probably the best part. First, you take the role as an editor of other people, without linking the originals. Second your physics experts aint, in physics as with a lot of things, if your theory can't be clearly presented and made likely to "innocents", there's a good reason it isn't good. Your first and second source ignore a literal earthquake of energy, then/or place cleanup crews at the site withing 4-5 hours after the collapse finding red hot steel. Because the theory that the pressure generated the heat, how does it play with the mentioned thermodynamic rule that heat likes to spread so to say? And the experiment of melting steel by mechanical gravity driven stress, can it be reproduced? Its like, you just twist a steel column fast enough, and it'll turn yelllow hot ? Please show me this replicated with any amount of hydraulics or regular fast burning explosives. Twisting it just a few times? The idea that pressure at collapse could mean the steel would still be hot even just a few days after is as ridiculous as whales farting bach symphonies with the sea lions on cembalo. And yet he takes the metric system as his witness, making it blush, these without credentials cited experts. I mean one of your main points is a lack of mainstream embrace an undisputable authority (as if science or civil engineering journals don't post crap that is debunked a some years later regularly, or miss important stuff). What about your own sources?

Your presentation of prof Jones as well shows the same shallow logic and willingness to distract. Instead of linking counterarguments or providing a truthful picture. Like making it clear that Jones research on cold fusion is in fact real science, and acknowledged as such by the same audience that assfried the fake cold fusion idiots, and that his career is as a real scientist in physics.

Also, he doesn't deliver a paper providing a civil engineering modelling that he isn't familiar with, thus making modelling errors he could be arrested for. He is saying the basic physics just doesn't add up, and as a (still) physics professor he is clearly qualified even though he as all mormons have peculiar thoughts on jesus christ. Are you in the same penstroke as aligning his theory about christ with his theories about fusion, alignign the theory of any mormon with a contribution to science with their respective theory about christ? Newton almost became a priest, eg preaching virgin birth and walk on water. Would you say it discredits the gravity theories your molten steelers are so fond of?

So deep ignorance, and so little substance in every important part of the argument ... I aint at all decided about the evidence at either side of the debate, but you are none better or worse than the average conspiracy site. I would love more good science about 9/11, but you are actually worse than what you are arguing against, your flawed "debunking" are making things worse.
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wildbilln864 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-14-06 09:23 AM
Response to Reply #2
19. You must be kidding, right?
your quote, "Don't forget that gravity (the most POWERFUL force in the whole universe) had been working on WTC2 for decades".

Completely wrong! Actually gravity is a very weak force compared to magnetism and others.
So much for your hypothesis! Bwahahahaha!
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Ezlivin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-15-06 09:24 AM
Response to Reply #19
32. Glad to have it shot down
It was a piece of shit hypothesis. In fact, I believed none of it when I wrote it, but was hoping to provoke those who know a little about physics to point out the glaring errors.

The pancake theory is bogus.
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mirandapriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-11-06 01:01 PM
Response to Original message
3. Either that or it's the floors are
pancaking really, really fast. (just kidding)

I agree with you, that clip reminds me of the fireman who said "boom boom boom boom boom" while illustrating with his hands how the building came down like a controlled demolition...
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Debunking911 Donating Member (270 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-11-06 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #3
10. The fireman moved his hands from top to bottom while saying it.
Edited on Thu May-11-06 06:44 PM by Debunking911
He said

BOOM (Moves hand down)
BOOM (Moves hand down)
BOOM (Moves hand down)
BOOM (Moves hand down)

He is explaining the explosive sound of an acre of concrete flooring crashing on another. Unless you think an acre of office falling on another acre of flooring doesn't make a sound on earth. If the towers were in space I would think it shouldn't make a sound. You see, in space there is no sound due to the vacuum of space. No, not your house vacuum. That also makes sound on earth.
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mrgerbik Donating Member (652 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-14-06 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #10
20. could mean anything
Don't try and claim he was only referring to the floors pancaking. There is just as much chance, if not more, that he is referring to the systematic destruction of each floor through something he may have believed to be CD.
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-14-06 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #10
23. Some of the explosive sounds
actually were explosions.



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mirandapriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-14-06 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #10
25. those guys were comparing it to a cd.nt
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ConspiracyTheorist Donating Member (18 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-11-06 08:19 PM
Response to Original message
15. Pancaking!!! ;)
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quickesst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-14-06 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #15
21. Yep....
I'm going to erect this building for you. It will meet all codes required. But, over time the structure will weaken, and it won't take much for it to come down in a pile of dust. Yeah, ok.:rofl: .:rofl:
Those things are taken into consideration in the first stages of planning. That's why they have control joints, slip track, and a myriad of other safety features that go into every large buildings design to compensate for what someone here actually believes will happen. Throw in top of this that the wtc was designed with many extra safety measures to withstand and to carry incredible weight and force.
Oh yeah, the "popping lightbulbs" in lieu of squibs has got me rolling on the damn floor. As far as I know, using stadium lights for an office is really not necessay. Keep the laughs coming.
Ain't it funny how those buildings and their steel were so strong that it completely disintegrated an airliner, but so weak, the impact and the, yuk-yuk, heating and cooling of the steel caused the entire structure to collapse into a pile of dust. Guess it depends on what talking point you're on, hey? Thanks.
quickesst
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-14-06 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. Oh come on
Skyscrappers turn to dust everyday.

:sarcasm:

Welcome to the DUngeon. :hi:

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quickesst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-14-06 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #22
26. Thanks...
And yes I do. The flashes were electrical rooms first. Laid that to rest pretty easily, and I don't think I would be taking much of a risk in stating my belief that there was more than one light bulb provided for each floor. Must be, because if there were more than one light per floor, there would undoubtedly have been multiple flashes on each of those floors.
If Bush and Cheney stood on the White House lawn and confessed to the dirty deed, to some, it would still be unthinkable. There is no definitive evidence that will convince them otherwise. But, by the same token, they are not able to show any definitive evidence proving the govenment's story is factual. When both sides, given what is known, speculated, broken down, and anylyzed are presented, it's a slam dunk the ct argument is more credible than the "official" fairy tale.
And I still believe that anyone who has done any kind of research into the events of 9/11, and does not wish or care that the tapes of the crash at the pentagon have not been made available to the public, has other motives besides their passion for the truth. Nutshell. Thanks.
quickesst
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RedSock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-14-06 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. comment re any video of 9/11 attacks
i can't access this video from the machine i'm using, but it is important to remember that ANY video of the 9/11 attacks that cannot be definitively sourced back to footage shot that day is useless for any investigative purposes.

almost 5 years after the events, any new footage or little clips on the internets (with a clear lineage) should be suspect.
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-14-06 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. Why would lights be flashing
if the building had already lost power?

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Ezlivin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-15-06 09:31 AM
Response to Reply #21
33. They were very powerful, 200W incandescent bulbs
:)

When the floors collapsed, the vacuum inside each bulb was breached. This vacuum created turbulent eddies of superheated gas from the suddenly vaporized tungsten filaments. This tungsten-fueled implosion initiated a chain reaction such that the star-hot filament ignited steel. This spontaneous combustion is seen as the so-called "squibs".

Or something like that...

I'm glad you liked my humor. My entire post was sarcastic humor.
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