My neighbor says he's put off by Edwards "outing" Cheney's daughter

[mac56]

A great guy and an old-school Dem. Said he thought Edwards crossed a line on Tuesday night when he outed Cheney's daughter in the debate. Said he'll never vote for *, but can't vote for Kerry-Edwards now either. I tried to explain that Cheney's daughter had been out quite openly for a long time now, and Edwards wanted Cheney to reconcile his official views with the realities of his life. Didn't make a difference to my neighbor. He's off Kerry and Edwards now for real.

Pretty sad. I hope he reconsiders.

[jonnyblitz]

1. you can't "OUT" somebody who isn't closeted to begin with.

like you said. geez

[Carla in Ca]

84. Yeah, and did you remind him that

her partner was with her at the debate?

[flowomo]

2. It was a risky maneuver.... and done a bit smarmily....

but there may be a lot of people who did not know it, and will connect the dots and recognize the hypocrisy of the GOP ticket. I did not like what Edwards did, but I don't think it was without some purpose.

[JI7]

6. what did Edwards do that you didn't like ?

[flowomo]

10. his intention was political (oh, look, Dick has a gay daughter......),

but it was cast as an attempt to show what a loving guy Cheney was toward his daughter. I didn't like it. If Edwards was going to raise the point, he should have simply noted the case and that there are millions more like it and that Bush is seeking to use them all as political fodder.

[faithnotgreed]

41. if im not mistaken, the transcript shows that moderator raised issue

not edwards.

gwen ifill first posed a question to cheney on the topic

im confused here....

[Media_Lies_Daily]

61. You're not confused at all...but some posters in this thread are trying...

...very hard to make us confused.

[ladybugg33]

78. It seemed like a "Thank you?" moment for Cheney. He just had to be

gracious and move on.

[RobinA]

62. I Didn't Like It Myself

he was clearly making a HUGE point of it. It's not a secret at this point, but I'm sure most people didn't know about it and Edwards set forth to change that. I HATE candidates and pundits using candidate's family for political purpose, and this was really egregious.

[Poiuyt]

21. Cheney has talked about his daughter in the past

A few weeks ago, he told about his daughter at a stump speech. Edwards did not "out" his daughter.

[flowomo]

24. I agree, but see my point below

n/t

[Media_Lies_Daily]

60. Oh, please. Do you really think Edwards "outed" Cheney's daughter?...

The fact that Cheney's daughter is gay is common knowledge and has been for quite some time. In fact, Cheney discussed in an interview several weeks ago why he personally could not support the FMA.

[LynnTheDem]

70. HUH????? CHENEY has PUBLICLY TALKED aboput his GAY daughter!

GEEEZ people KEEP UP with the world, lol!

[Obamarama]

3. So, do you live next to a group home for the developmentally disabled?

Tell him to pick up the clue phone.

[JI7]

4. i don't understand

Edwards did not "out" her. she was already out and when you explained that he STILL has a problem ? so he is basing his decision to not support kerry and edwards based on something he claims edwards did even though edwards didn't really do it ?

seems this person was probably never really going to support them anyways.

[mac56]

13. No, he's a lifelong Dem.

I tried to explain exactly what you said. He just feels like certian topics ought to be out of bounds in that kind of forum.

I can't bash my neighbor, because as I said he's one of the best. I just didn't know how to put his mind at ease about this.

[Catch22Dem]

36. There's no way...

a lifelong Dem would go to the darkside over something this small.

[mac56]

49. I hope you're right.

As I said, there's still time for him to change his mind.

[buff2]

51. That's right

That guy is probably a "closet" republican. Maybe what he really needs is to be "outed". That's really a stupid reason for not voting for someone in your own party....because they think someone crossed the line about THE OTHER SIDE. Geesus,I've never seen so many mixed up people in all my life. It gets worse every day.

[mac56]

54. I really don't think he's a closet repub.

"Mixed up" is probably a pretty good explanation.

[kodi]

66. so was george wallace

it don't mean nuthin'

[high density]

5. I thought what Edwards said was a bit weird

But does your neighbor really want to give Bush another four more years just because of thirty seconds worth of words from Sen. Edwards?

[Shopaholic]

8. get a hold of the transcript where Cheney talked about his gay

daughter at the campaign event a few months ago. Show that to your neighbor and prove to him that Cheney outed her first.

[kokomo]

33. Dick Cheney talks about "gay daughter" on CNN.....transcript.....

http://cnnstudentnews.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0408/25/lol.03.html

Mary Cheney held a public role as her father's assistant in the 2000 campaign and helped the GOP recruit gay voters during the 2002 midterm elections.

In the 2000 campaign, Dick Cheney took the position that the states should decide legal issues about personal relationships and that people should be free to enter relationships of their choosing. But that was before he "flip-flopped"!

http://www.newsday.com/news/politics/wire/sns-ap-cheneys-gay-marriage,0,5990695.story?coll=sns-ap-politics-headlines

The Southern Baptists condemn the Cheneys last month for their "moral relativism"

"We should expect Mr. and Mrs. Cheney to love both of their daughters. But love requires truth-telling, not the acceptance of all behavior or 'lifestyles.'"

http://www.christianpost.com/forum/view_thread.htm?id=1480

[Erika]

18. Ah, Get Real People. Cheney Used Mary in the last election!

She worked for Coors, you know as in Peter. Dick "outed" her to show inclusiveness of the GOP. She made big bucks from Coors and now from the Cheney campaign. She's generally thought of as a mercenary and a traitor to gay causes. Sounds like a Cheney to me.

[Toucano]

7. The only vote that stops Bush

is a vote FOR Kerry/Edwards. If someone doesn't vote for Kerry, they're helping Bush win and ruin the country.

Tell your neighbor to go suck on W's tit for four more years and see how much better things get for gays.

[Eric J in MN]

9. My Advice: Tell him

you've decided he's got a good point that it was unnecessary for Edwards to talk about Cheney's daughter.

However, John Kerry will do a better job of securing nuclear material in the former Soviet Union. Bush cut the budget for that.

The latter isuse is more important.

[w4rma]

11. Seems he's let the trees get in the way of him seeing the forest. (nt)

[kokomo]

12. She has been "out" for years.

Mary Cheney went to work as a gay community liaison for Coors Brewing Company, where she was instrumental in ending a 20-year boycott by the gay community of that company. Cheney left Coors in 2000 to work with her father and the Bush campaign. In 2002, Mary Cheney served on the advisory board of the Republican Unity Coalition, a gay-straight alliance formed within the Republican party to help increase tolerance within the party for gays and lesbians, and others.

[flowomo]

14. Also point out.....

that Cheney's "thank you" back to Edwards seemed sincere (I was amazed). It wasn't said angrily or ironically. He seemed to think Edwards had said something nice. Maybe I misread it.

[RobinA]

64. No You Didn't

misread it. It was Edwards being rather graceless and it wasn't called for.

[girl gone mad]

15. Edwards was just using a public example of..

someone who supports a gay family member and wants them to have basic rights. That person just happened to be the guy sitting across from him.

Cheney talked about his daughter being gay on national TV just a few weeks prior. I think Edwards acted appropriately.

[Career Prole]

16. Mary Cheney wasn't 'in' the closet.

Dick Cheney was.

[txindy]

17. What? Cheney held a press conf. the very day he arrived in NYC for the RNC

Dick Cheney, himself, told the entire world his daughter is gay. He used the skyline of lower Manahattan, sans WTC, as his backdrop for the subliminal pathos effect, too. All without having her on the stage with him, of course. If all of that isn't crossing the line, your friend is without the proverbial clue.

Mary Cheney has been out for years. She was the liason for Gay/Lesbians at Coors, for crying out loud.

[CBHagman]

19. I learned in 2000 that Mary Cheney was a lesbian

If Edwards was outing anybody, he was too late.

[Fovea]

20. Outing is not his problem

Breaking the veil of silence is the problem.
Ask your friend if they aren't possibly building the closet that
gays have to hide in?

I'm just sayin...

[flowomo]

22. Sure, she was "out" to many, BUT....

millions of others did not know. Edwards did not "out" the daughter, but he spread the news in an especially visible forum. I'm not saying that was bad -- but it was, if not an outing, and enlarging of the awareness.

[txindy]

26. Millions didn't know? Her father held a press conference!

On the day he arrived in NYC for the convention! If the millions didn't pay attention, that's not Edwards' problem. Her father announced it to the entire world. Her own father. It wasn't a secret.

[flowomo]

30. I still bet it was the first time millions of people heard it....

just my guess. Those of us who follow the news closely tend to assume everybody does. It isn't so. The debate was watched by millions who don't otherwise pay attention. That's why they matter so much. Think about how many people had a "good" impression of Kerry AFTER the debate. For heaven's sake, didn't they KNOW IT before???? No, in many cases. They'd never seen the guy despite hundreds and hundreds of TV appearances by him.

[txindy]

34. Unless you wanted to check

with everyone in the world before making an announcement, you'll never know who knows what. But if the VP, in an election year, makes multiple announcements about his gay daughter, most people would assume it was public knowledge. Edwards did not out anyone. If you think he did, fine. We've already pointed to two press conferences Cheney had where he addressed this point. If people didn't see it on the news or read it in the papers, they are hardly the type to sit down and watch the Vice-Presidential debate live on TV. Just MHO.

[flowomo]

37. I do not believe Edwards outed anyone.... as I've made clear....

he just spread the word in a way I found distasteful, though politically useful. It was how it was done, not what was done.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

63. Maybe you ought to reread your post #2 that was in agreement with...

...the post that started this thread.

[bushisanidiot]

23. Sounds like your neighbor is probably homophobic and doesn't like hearing

the words "gay" or "lesbian" spoken live on television.

[Dickie Flatt]

25. "Breaking" News: Cheney Outs Own Daughter

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Well, the question has come up obviously in the past with respect to the question of gay marriage. Lynne and I have a gay daughter, so it's an issue that our family is very familiar with.

[mac56]

27. True.

I wish I had pointed that out to my neighbor.

[NightOwwl]

31. There's still time. n/t

[txindy]

28. Thank you! That's the press conference I was talking about.

:toast:

Edited: No, wait. That link is about an Iowa conf. Cheney also had one in NYC, but the info. was the same. He's into repeating himself, as we know. ;)

[spooky3]

29. Didn't Gwen Ifill, not Edwards, raise the question?

[Dickie Flatt]

32. Sort of.

MODERATOR: Next question goes to you, Mr. Vice President. I want to read something you said four years ago at this very setting: Freedom means freedom for everybody. You said it again recently when you were asked about legalizing same-sex unions and you used your family as an experience, your family experience as a context for your remarks. Can you describe, then, your administration's support for a constitutional ban on same-sex unions?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

68. "Sort of"?? Does she have to draw you a picture?

[Sick_of_Rethuggery]

35. Point out to your neighbor

that it wasn't Kerry who did that. Also point him to this article about Kerry in the NYT: (it is an amazing article in the SCMSM about an amazing man)

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/10/magazine/10KERRY.html?oref=login

Ask him if it is worth it to abandon the chance to get such a spectacular President because his Veep candidate did something stupid (I too believe what Edwards did was pretty low).

[mac56]

42. Thank you. I think this is a good approach.

nm

[Erika]

44. Edwards Offered Compassion but it makes you wonder

why Cheney/Bush outed Mary in 2000 when they were building their big tent. Indeed, Mary was making a fortune from Peter Coors and now is making a fortune from the Cheney campaign because of her sexual orientation. She's played it good for her financial coffers.

[TheWebHead]

38. yeah Imus has made a big deal about that

though Gwen Ifell's original question to Cheney talked about the "situation" in his family regarding gay marriage... he had brought up his daughter's lesbianism on the campaign trail. I was worried though about how Cheney would react, he could have forced Edwards to apologize for bringing that up for a Super Bowl sized audience (where it hadn't been), but he didn't.

I have a suspicion this was political hardball to get it out there that Cheney's daughter was gay to the barely tuned in to politicaly news right-wing audience... but maybe Edwards thought Ifell's question already ID'ed Cheney's daughter.

[flowomo]

43. exactly right.....

and I said pretty much the same above.

[mellowinman]

39. Point out that he didn't "out" Cheney himself,

which is important. Lynn would have a hard time dealing with it, and the sixteen ex-NFL stars old bald and disgusting Dick has been performing oral sex on have families of their own to think of, not to mention an easy explanation for Dick's incredibly bad halitosis.

Remember, Dick Cheney is a real manly American, and Ann Coulter fantasizes about him endlessly, as do most people who are radically insane droolers.

Tell your neighbor that even Democrats can be complete idiots, and start putting dead fish in his mailbox from time to time, just to make us all feel better here at this forum. Other than that, all you can really do is pray to Stan, the god of Hammers and Ripsaws.

That's what I would do.

[Minimus]

40. To me Edwards seemed sincere about his statement. Transcript from debate:

I guess I am naive, because I after reading the transcript I
still see it as JE being kind and making a heartfelt
observation that Cheney obviously loves his daughter. 

From everything I have read about JE, he just doesn't seem the
type of person that would be cold and calculating about
"outing" someone's child.



IFILL: The next question goes to you, Mr. Vice President. 

I want to read something you said four years ago at this very
setting: "Freedom means freedom for everybody." You
said it again recently when you were asked about legalizing
same-sex unions. And you used your family's experience as a
context for your remarks.

Can you describe then your administration's support for a
constitutional ban on same-sex unions?

CHENEY: Gwen, you're right, four years ago in this debate, the
subject came up. And I said then and I believe today that
freedom does mean freedom for everybody. People ought to be
free to choose any arrangement they want. It's really no one
else's business.

IFILL: Senator Edwards, 90 seconds.

EDWARDS: ...Now, as to this question, let me say first that I
think the vice president and his wife love their daughter. I
think they love her very much. And you can't have anything but
respect for the fact that they're willing to talk about the
fact that they have a gay daughter, the fact that they embrace
her. It's a wonderful thing. And there are millions of parents
like that who love their children, who want their children to
be happy. 


IFILL: Mr. Vice President, you have 90 seconds.

CHENEY: Well, Gwen, let me simply thank the senator for the
kind words he said about my family and our daughter. I
appreciate that very much. 

[txindy]

46. So Gwen Ifill is the one who mentioned it first.

Thanks! I hadn't looked at the transcript, but thought it happened that way. Wasn't certain, though.

Ifill says, "...you used your family's experience as a
context for your remarks." That's a green light for everyone to discuss the subject. She didn't think it was unknown, that's obvious.

[pschoeb]

45. Mary worked as the Gay Community Liaison for Coors Brewing Company

before even the 2000 election, so it hardly was secret, and in fact obviously this was a public role as well. She was also on the Unity Board ,a gay straight alliance for the Republican party in 2002, and also again a public role.

[Erika]

53. Mary Worked For Peter Coors, the now GOP candidate

This is not recent news.

[kokomo]

76. Why gays had a 20 year boycott against Coors.

When you have several million gays and thousands of gay bars refusing to buy Coors beer, it hits them in the pocket book. Mary Cheney was hired to help win this group back for Coors.

The Coors are one of the nation's most far-right families. They still support anti-gay groups/causes:

* The Heritage Foundation. Very anti-gay.

* The Council for National Policy...far right wing anti-gay bigots
including Pat Robertson, Phyllis Schlaffly, Jerry Falwell, Oliver
North, Gary Bauer, Ralph Reed, Ed Meese, and Sen. Jesse Helms.

* The Center for the Study of Popular Culture, David Horowitz’ far
right wing group. NUFF SAID!

* Free Congress Foundation

http://www.bamn.com/boycott-coors/coors-myths-facts.asp

[Protagoras]

47. Edwards says something middling about Cheney's daughter

so your neighbor is going to vote against all women's rights, against his job, against retirement, against the environment, against healthcare, and for the stacking of the supreme court that will affect us for decades....

yeah I understand that.

[Minimus]

48. Edwards "outing" cheney's daughter sounds like a RW talking point.

I don't buy it.

[Carolinian]

57. I think this thread is a bunch of BS. RW stirring the anti Edwards pot.

[mac56]

58. Sorry you think so.

nm

[Media_Lies_Daily]

67. IMHO, Carolina Girl NC is right on the money...why do you think otherwise?

[Viking12]

72. On the money Carolina Girl

This whole thread is complete nonsense. Cheney's daughter has been out for a long time. It is well-documented in HUNDREDS of newspaper articles (I ran Lexis-Nexis search).


WTF did Edwards say that wasn't freakin public knowledge???? NOTHING. This is a NON-ISSUE. Tell your neighbor the facts, I'll PM a list of newspaper articles if you need.

[greyXstar]

50. I think people are getting worked up about it for nothing.

I've also heard people say they didn't like that Edwards talked about, because "it obviously upset the vice president". Except that it wasn't about that at all. Cheney didn't respond because he doesn't agree with banning gay marriage.

[Carolab]

52. Here's what I think

your neighbor is a closet Republican. NO lifelong Dem is going to go against Kerry-Edwards for THIS. How do you KNOW he is? Ask him these three questions:

1. Which Ron Reagan do you prefer?
2. Do you watch Faux beyond "The Simpsons"?
3. What is the best way to support our troops?

He's either lying about his "affiliation" or hiding his (real or feared) "orientation".

[BeyondGeography]

55. Tell him Cheney's response was to thank Edwards for his kind words

about his family, right there in front of 43 million people.

If Cheney had no problem with it, neither should your neighbor.

[mac56]

56. Great answer.

I think I'll share that with him.

[henslee]

59. Whoa, JE did not pull it out of the air! The mod. brought the topic up..

IMO, both Cheney and the mod. Ifill, were super lame in that they talked around the specifics. And then when JE finally got specific using the words "gay daughter" -- he at least helped convey the full import of Ifill's question which would have been lost otherwise.

on edit - true, he didn't have to keep repeating it... but wtf, this is war.

JE never said anything was wrong with having a gay daughter. Does your friend think something is shameful about having a gay daughter?
Frankly, the way the cheney's hide her away like a leper is way more repulsive than JE's remark.

excerpt from debate - Ifill's question....

IFILL: "The next question goes to you, Mr. Vice President...
I want to read something you said four years ago at this very setting: "Freedom means freedom for everybody." You said it again recently when you were asked about legalizing same-sex unions. And you used YOUR FAMILY'S EXPERIENCE as a context for your remarks.
Can you describe then your administration's support for a constitutional ban on same-sex unions?"

[Media_Lies_Daily]

65. Your neighbor must not get news of any kind. This has been common....

...knowledge for quite some time.

Additionally, Gwen I. brought up the subject, not Edwards.

[kokomo]

77. It was discussed in the Cheney/Lieberman debate in 2000.

Everything but naming "Mary" as the lesbian, but then Mary was left at home at the 2000 Republican Convention (maybe even in NYC this time) and the "normal" daughter with a child was highly visible.

[LynnTheDem]

69. Good grief.

Cheney's DAUGHTER outed Cheney's daughter YEARS ago.

[LisaL]

71. Well, that's really stupid.

Edwards didn't out her, she was out already.
Geez, some people just come up with most ridiculous reasons to not vote.
Cheney had personally said he has a gay daughter.
:eyes:

[EndElectoral]

73. This was already well publicized..your friend isn't telling you the truth

[Oreo]

74. Jon Stewart joked about this

The night after the VP debate Jon Stewart was mocking Edwards saying I heard you have a GAY DAUGHTER. He repeated it about 5 times getting progressively louder and finally adding an echo to it.

I personally thought it was great that it got out in the open. Cheney amazed me by his humanity... I didn't think he had it in him!
To just thank Edwards foor his comments, not to mention openly saying he was against Bush was pretty telling.

Knowing republicans... most didn't know Cheney has a gay daughter b/c Fox didn't tell them. I'm sure a few born agains had second thoughts about Dick after hearing he raised a gay daughter and is proud... at least somewhat (he didn't bring her onstage at the RNC) of her.

[kokomo]

79. Southern Baptists condemned Cheneys in Sept for talking about Mary.

Decried Republican "moral relativism"

"We should expect Mr. and Mrs. Cheney to love both of their daughters. But love requires truth-telling, not the acceptance of all behavior or 'lifestyles.'"

http://www.christianpost.com/forum/view_thread.htm?id=1480

[Oreo]

82. Behaviors or Lifestyles

Until they realize it's not a behavior or a lifestyle (which I don't see happening) this isn't going to change.

Everything I've always heard from the Bible is judge not lest yee be judged yourself. Why is it that all of the born again bush robots can pick and choose which parts of the Bible they want follow to the letter? Hypocrites... that's all they are... not christians.

Rove and his minions realize they can prey on people like this.

[Ksec]

75. Hes offended by this but has no problem with the war by lies and torture?

Sounds like hes got selective outrage. These types are blowin smoke up asses and I dont have time for them.

Tell him he was votin for boosh anyway. So can the phoney outrage .

[JI7]

80. and how about a Constitutional Amendment against gays?

if this guy is so concerned you would think this would matter to him. that's why i find it hard to believe he was a true democrat or ever had any intention of truly supporting us.

[theHandpuppet]

81. Tell your neighbor to visit this site:

http://dearmary.com/

excerpts:

Mary Cheney would be relevant to this debate even were she not related to the vice president.  She is a public figure who has chosen to put herself in the public eye as a professional gay rights activist, first at Coors and then at the Republican Unity Coalition. She has also put herself in the public eye by accepting a $100,000 a year salary to run the vice president's re-election campaign.

and...

On the contrary, this is an administration that is happy to use private family members as public figures when it will win them votes. There was no reluctance to having First Lady Laura Bush tell the media recently that gay marriage was "very very shocking." And the other Cheney daughter, Liz, recently spoke out about the importance of the upcoming presidential election. The Bush Administration also has had no problem using Mary Cheney as the gay poster child for compassionate conservatism, first during the 2000 election and later as a board member of a top gay Republican advocacy group, in order to win gay and lesbian money and votes. Now that Mary's promise of compassionate conservatism is being called into question, the administration can't claim she's a private figure whose opinion is not relevant.
and...

But one must remember that Mary chose to put herself out there as the Republican party's gay poster child during the 2000 presidential campaign, and more recently as a board member of the gay rights group Republican Unity Coalition. She chose to publicly use her "celebrity" status as the lesbian daughter of Vice President Cheney to convince gay Americans that the Bush-Cheney ticket was one of compassionate conservatism in order to woo gay money and gay votes for her father's party.

When Mary joined the pro-gay Republican Unity Coalition in April 2002, she issued a statement saying "We can make sexual orientation a nonissue for the Republican Party, and we can help achieve equality for all gay and lesbian Americans." It's at a minimum fair for those gay voters and contributors who believed Mary's promise, and acted on it, to now ask her whether her promise of a party compassionate to gays was a false one

As a gay person in America I consider Mary Cheney to be a lying, sellout traitor to the GLBT community. Unlike the millions of other GLBT people in this nation, Mary must feel her family connections and wealth shield her from the hatemongering, persecution and discrimination the rest of us must face evry day of our lives. Isn't she special -- NOT!! Mary Cheney deserves every rotten turd coming her way.

[gauguin57]

83. Ask your neighbor if he's smokin' bananas.

Seriously ... one statement from Edwards and he's going to doom us all to a nuclear holocaust and the Second Great Depression because of it?

Please. He's not one of the best. He's an idiot if he doesn't come around on this one. Our very LIVES are at stake. Not just the soldiers' lives overseas and the young people Bush will turn to cannon fodder ... but ALL OUR LIVES!

Your neighbor is not paying attention to ANYTHING if he lets himself be swayed by one statement by Edwards. And you can tell him I SAID SO!

[gardenista]

85. It was clearly tactical. And a little over the line. But Cheney deserved

it. Cheyney is a hypocrite, and this was one of the easiest ways of elaborating on it. He didn't out her but he definitely magnified it. It was on the edge of smarmy. But I'm glad Edwards did it. Shows that he's willing to fight dirty when needed. Before 2000, I would have had a much more negative reaction. But this is war, and we must win.

[IronLionZion]

86. There's a lot that people don't know

Like Bush's pre-presidential career. or the fact that he paid for his girlfriend Robin Lowman's abortion before it was legal. I wish someone would out Bush for being a pro-death coke-user.

[kokomo]

87. Larry Flynt has promised an "October surprise!"

Larry did a good job of "outting" the Republican hypocrites who were throwing stones at Bill Clinton.

[mockmonkey]

88. Be glad Edwards

didn't out the Log Cabin republicans too!