Thread 2: Dean and race issues.

[stickdog]

I want to know two things from those of you acting angry about Dean's presumptuousness in talking about race.

Exactly what has he said that makes you angry?

What would you have him say instead?

Thread one is here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=102045&mesg_id=102045

[NV1962]

1. Dupe

Nothing to get worked up over, honest.

[mikewriter]

2. Dean's comments ok

Dean hasn't said anything about race that I've objected to. It's the other candidates attacking Dean again about issues which may or may not play a key role in getting the nomination. Sharpton made a good point about Dean not having minorities in his cabinent but Idon't think it'll hurt Dean.

[Rowdyboy]

3. I'm not angry, he just has no experience...

The TOTAL minority population of Vermont is 3,102.

http://www.statehealthfacts.kff.org/cgi-bin/healthfacts.cgi?action=profile&area=Vermont&category=Minority+Health&subcategory=Population&topic=Total+Black+Population
(if you don't like my numbers)

Number of those minority people who served in Dean's cabinet during HIS 11 years as governor? Exactly ZERO, None, Nada, Nilo, Zilch, no one, no time, nobody black has served in Dean's cabinet.

Perhaps he might actually "deal" with some people of color before he presumes to speak for them.

(excuse me, this is my first night of Dean-bashing and I hope I don't go overboard-I'm new at this so be patient!)

[NV1962]

4. Nice shirt you're wearing!

Don't look now, but your link is stretching the page. (I.e.: try embedding it.)

Almost the way this issue stretches my patience.

[pezcore64]

12. ....

and out of those 3,102 minorities...

how many have experience working in politics?
how many have a high level of education?


Everything hasta be about race, doesnt it?

To me, all al sharpton tried to do, was play the race card...which last time i checked... was frowned upon by most democrats AND republicans.

[stickdog]

5. Isn't the quick death of this thread extremely telling?

I'll repeat my original questions.

I want to know two things from those of you who are acting angry about Dean's presumptuousness in talking about race.

Exactly what has he said that makes you angry?

What would you have him say instead?

[stickdog]

6. Still waiting.

Was it all just a flimsy excuse to grandstand?

[BurtWorm]

7. Apparently yes it was.

[sangh0]

8. I think your subject line and question are flimsy excuses to grandstand

The real reason many of us are upset with Dean's position on AA have nothing to do with the lack of minorities in his cabinet. It's because he wanted to stop AA from using race as factor and for his confusing AA (a remedy for discrimination program) with a poverty program.

on edit: Your subject line says this thread is about Dean and race issues, but for some reason, the question you ask is limited to the number of minorities in Dean's VT cabinet.

Dean's cabinet is NOT the only eacial issue being discussed

[stickdog]

9. What are you talking about?

Please allow me to "rephrase."

I want to know two things from those of you acting angry about Dean's presumptuousness in talking about race.

Exactly what has he said that makes you angry?

What would you have him say instead?

[sangh0]

15. OK

Exactly what has he said that makes you angry?

His comment during the mid-90's that race should be replaced with class as a factor in AA (ir "not race, but class")

What would you have him say instead?

"I support the use of race as a factor in AA"

I want to know two things from those of you acting angry about Dean's presumptuousness in talking about race.

And again, IMO you are "framing the issue" in an inappropriate manner. The problem isn't that Dean is "presumptious" in talking about race. The problem is with what he says, not that he's talking about race.

[Ripley]

14. You just can't stand it that Dean wants poor white people to get help

from the government. He never said he would cut off blacks from any programs. Why should poor white kids in Vermont receive less benefits from the government than poor black kids in New York?

As usual people twist his point into contortions for their own lame biases.

[sangh0]

19. Why can't Dean, and many of his supporters

understand that AA is not a poverty program? It's a remedy for discrimination!

[beaconess]

20. Because all blacks are poor, right?

[sangh0]

22. "The silence is telling"

People who originally seemed eager to discuss have suddenly been quieted

[AP]

26. Black VPs at Ford, black associates at Wilson Sonsimi, black doctors,

black associate professors...none of them are poor...all benefit from AA...society benefits from AA for them.

How does dropping race help in any of those situations?

[TLM]

29. Please quote where Dean said AA should drop race...

I'll be waiting for that quote.

[beaconess]

32. "I don't think it ought to be done by race"

sort of says it all, doesn't it?

Of course, if you belong to the Dean Can Do No Wrong, So If He Says Something That Gets Him Into Trouble He Really Meant Just The Opposite crowd, his plain English would mean nothing to you.

[AP]

33. TLM? Hello?

[TLM]

28. Dean was talking about new program....

You keep saying Dean was talking about a proverty program, and AA is not a poverty program.

THAT IS THE WHOLE FUCKING POINT!

Dean was talking about a proverty program that works like AA works, but for class and not race. In other words... a NEW PROGRAM!

Why the hell is that so hard to understand?

Post the whole quote and that fact is clear as day... Dean said we should look at programs like AA, but that address class. Programs that are similar to AA but that focus on class disadvantages the way AA focuses on race disadvantages.

Nowhere does Dean say one word about removing race from AA or changing AA as you keep claiming.

[AP]

34. That makes it better? Was UofM admissions a new program?

Dean seemed to like AA for UofM.

[TLM]

24. Still waiting for you to quote where Dean said REMOVE race from AA.

"It's because he wanted to stop AA from using race as factor and for his confusing AA (a remedy for discrimination program) with a poverty program."

Dean was talking about developing a poverty program that was like AA, as in "similar to" AA, but that addressed class and not race.


Never once did he say one word about changing AA or removing race as a factor from AA. He said we should look at programs like (similar to) AA, but that address class and not race in order to do something for poor folks without educational opportunities.

[AP]

27. How many times does this have to be discussed before a link is no longer

required.

How do you interpret what he said on CNN.

Furthermore, the context is more damning. There was a huge debate in the US when he said that. It was Clinton vs Gingrich, and Dean took Gingrich's side.

[beaconess]

31. "I don't think it ought to be done by race"

Actually means "I think that affirmative action based on race is a good thing but we should expand it to include programs for poor white people?" Sort of like "I don't think we ought to go to war with Iraq" really means "Of course, I think we should go to war with Iraq, but we should also look at invading Iran."

Even if your tortured and laughable interpretation of "what Dean really meant" made any sense whatsoever, it would still be problematic - just one more example of Dean's alarming propensity to respond to questions about issues of importance to African Americans with a call for expanding opportunities for white people.

[sangha]

35. Just one question, TLM

Why the heck was Dean talking about a new poverty program (that's never been considered in Congress or the VT STate legislature) when then question was about AA?

BTW beaconess, hilarious, absolutely hilarious!

[bigtree]

10. talk the talk

but, walk the walk.

[RetroLounge]

11. The silence is very telling

eom

[bigtree]

16. Gov. Dean's words aren't the issue

His actions during his 11 years as governor are.

[beaconess]

21. Actually, his words are part of the issue

since they are in complete conflict with the attitudes that many of supporters are presenting here.

The verbal gymnastics and justifications for Dean's dismal hiring record that we've been treated to in the past two days is not only shocking, but reveals a complete disconnect between Dean's rhetoric and many of his supporters true feelings on race, civil rights and affirmative action.

Otherwise, how does one jibe Dean's statements with those of his supporters? Maybe, in between candidate debates, Dean could debate some of his own supporters, since they seem to be on opposite sides of the issue.

"What we do have to do is to have a discussion that talks about the biases that every human being -- black, white, or brown -- has towards hiring people who look like themselves. Only then can we understand why it is that minorities are held down by hiring practices."

vs.

"What should Dean have done? Hired a token African American or Native American in the perhaps 15 odd cabinent members in his terms as Governor? Why?"

Or

"I would pursue policies that encourage racial diversity on college campuses because I know that diversity serves important goals -- it produces benefits for all students, and for society as a whole . . . Last term, the United States Supreme Court upheld the affirmative action program at the University of Michigan Law School, and in doing so affirmed the basic principle that race can properly be considered by universities to overcome past discrimination and achieve diversity. I was delighted that the Supreme Court upheld the principle of affirmative action in education. This was a victory for the civil rights of all Americans."

vs.

"But in college applications how can blacks be discriminated against if the college doesn't know the race of the applicant? Colleges, as a result of this type of affirmative action, accept upper middle-class blacks and blacks who attend private schools because of this type affirmative action while working class people, both black and white, are largely left out in the cold. Is that fair?"

or

"Studies show that African-American job applicants are consistently less likely to be hired than less qualified whites."

and

"Finding African Americans qualified for cabinet positions would have been too difficult."

Maybe, before he reaches out to white Confederate flag wavers, Howard Dean should first reach out to explain to his own supporters why affirmative action and civil rights are important. Based upon what I've seen here in the past couple of days, it's a lesson long overdue.

[beaconess]

13. I'm not angry.

I do wonder, however, why a man who, according to his supporters in DU, because of the absolute dearth of minorities in his state, couldn't muster up one qualified minority to serve in his cabinet, thinks that he is the best person to lead a national discussion on race or to lecture to others why they should support civil rights and affirmative action.

Can anyone explain to me why Vermont's near lily white, homogenous population is a fine excuse for Dean's failure to reach out to minorities as governor but cannot be used to assess whether this man has the experience and exposure necessary to serve as a national leader on race?

Dean critics: Dean's only political experience is governing a small, homogenous, nearly all-white state. Has this adquately prepared him to address the complex issue of race in America?

Dean supporters: Of course it does! The fact that Vermont is all white doesn't mean anything.

***
Dean critics: Dean didn't have any minorities in his cabinet.

Dean supporters: How could he? There ARE no black people in Vermont. The fact the state is all white makes all the difference in the world!

[bigtree]

17. And what of the minorities in the lower level positions?

Why did he fail to elevate them to cabinet level in his 11 years as governor?

[beaconess]

18. Because they weren't qualified, of course

[beaconess]

23. kick it up

[AP]

25. I don't like the way Dean pretends the way to solve problem is to

address subconscious feelings. I don't like the way he says that carring about high incarceration rates for blacks is weepy and liberal and that drug treatment programs will solve the problem. I don't like the way he bluntly talks about race by telling a story about how he told the woman in his office to start hiring white men, rather than women.

There's a much better way to talk about race.

I would rather he talk about race the way Edwards does: it's about taking down barriers to participation in society, and that we're alll better off if the person who isn't white is able to have equality of opportunity, and a chance to fully express themselves in whatever way he or she chooses.

[Very Good Dem]

30. kick