Why didn't Dean mention that his state is 97% white to defend his...

[_Jumper_]

...failure to practice what he preaches about affirmative action in his hiring practices?

[ClarkGraham2004]

1. Because it's embarrassing

Vermont? Come on......

[doubles]

2. Not a good defense, Sharpton's response would have dug a deeper

hole for Dean to come out of.....

[ClarkGraham2004]

3. Yes, Sharpton would have roasted him on the fact that he's from Vermont

[Rowdyboy]

4. 97% white? WTF are you talking about?

Vermont population 611,000. Minority population 3,102 (none of whom ever served in Dean's cabinet during his 11 year term as governor). That 99.6% white by my math

[_Jumper_]

8. That's the African-American population

The overall minority population is 3%.

[mbali]

5. Because Sharpton would have reminded him that that is the excuse

that people ALWAYS give to justify discrimination. No one ever discriminates - they just can't find any qualified minorities. Oldest excuse in the book and Sharpton would have made a fool out of him if he tried to use it. To his credit, Dean was too smart to fall into that trap. I think that even he knows better than to fall back on that lame story.

[_Jumper_]

7. Good point

But he didn't offer any real defensive of his actions. He just tried to change the subject. Does he really think he shouldn't explain why he did this to minority voters? After all, even Shrub could find minorities he felt were qualified to do cabinet jobs...

[poskonig]

6. White people are bad.

Fuck, I don't know!

[NewYorkerfromMass]

9. The fact he had no good substantive answer is the problem

This guy who's been talking god guns and gays and confed. flags for over a year now shpuld have had a credible response.
Instead we now have a major brush fire.

[_Jumper_]

11. I agree

I am surprised that many people are giving him a free pass on this.

[sandnsea]

10. Hire from out of state

Sharpton had already pointed out that getting talent from out of state is what is done to achieve racial diversity. Dean didn't do that and it is an interesting point.

[Eloriel]

12. I bet he didn't hire anyone from out of state

While Sharpton's idea is a nice one, it's not typically either expected or required in standard Affirmative Action plans when you don't recruit for positions out of state, so expecting Dean to do that in a state with so few minorities is a little over the top -- but it makes great theater, doesn't it? Helps keep those South Carolina voters lined up to vote for Sharpton instead of Jesse Jackson's endorsee.

Dean has made his campaign staff extremely diverse -- see my posts in other threads tonight on the subject. Probably more diverse than any others -- blacks, Hispanics, Native American. I think THOSE actions speak a LOT more than trying to make a case that he didn't walk the talk in a very small state that, again, probably didn't recruit for any positions outside of VT. When he had a viable chance to do just that, he did, and well.

Eloriel

[_Jumper_]

15. You forgot to mention...

...that he know needs votes from those groups. What was his record in Vermont when he didn't need to court non-white votes?

[AP]

13. Didn't Dean bring up a few Wall Streeters from NYC to help run things?

[shance]

16. I dont know AP, you seem to know all the inside scoop on Dean

why dont you do your op research and get back with us on it will ya?

:)

[sandnsea]

17. Some ski execs for sure

Not sure about the WS thing.

[AP]

18. There was story about how Dean brought in the Wall St investment bankers

to serve in key positions in his adminstration. He may have gone to med school in between working on Wall St and moving to VT, but he didn't forget his roots once he became governor.

[stickdog]

14. Guess. (nt)

[DemBones DemBones]

19. We benighted Southerners were told it was NO EXCUSE if there

were no black kids living near a white neighborhood school -- we had to BUS THEM IN. And bus white kids out to the black schools to achieve racial balance. (Good for equality, but can be bad for kids if they have to spend hours on buses.)

Clearly, if Howard really cared about racial balance half as much as he cared about budget balance, he'd have worked out a BUSING PLAN! Force a bunch of African-Americans to move into Vermont. Or bribe 'em.

Seriously, it's weird that the state is so white. If it's so liberal, don't Vermonters feel guilty about being such a white state?

[shance]

20. Tell you what. When you go on National TV for your next televised debate

and you wind up get sideswiped by your opponent,

who throws you a loaded question which is designed more for shock value than for any genuine concern, get back with us and let us know what your response is.

:)

I think its pretty easy for us to sit back and observe those fighting it out in the gladiator ring with a critical eye, but to also respond by criticizing someone who is being pretty unfairly attacked, as one who is not responding to the attack correctly enough, is a little harsh in my opinion.

Too much criticism is scaring off alot of otherwise great individuals who might ordinarily run for office, but dont want to get skewered on the fire.

[AP]

21. Yeah, let's cut him some slack. He's only applying for the

most important job in America.

[beaconess]

25. Hardly a sideswipe

Dean is a professional, seasoned politician running for President of the United States. He has participated in numerous debates in which his record and policies have been scrutinized. Moreover, he has been bragging for months about being the "only politician talking about race to white audiences" and consistently implying that he is better on race than any of his opponents. He boasts about how he is doing a better job than the others in explaining affirmative action to white people. So why should he be surprised that someone raised a question about his own hiring record in Vermont?

Hell, Al Sharpton even hinted to him months ago that he might come after him on affirmative action. Remember back when Sharpton raised questions about Dean's position on affirmative action? He brought it up, but then didn't say anymore about it. Why didn't Dean take advantage of that opportunity that Sharpton offered him to clean up his act or least figure out a way to explain it if it came up again? Had he done so, perhaps he could have avoided the humiliation he suffered last night.

No, it wasn't a sideswipe. He should have seen it coming and his failure to anticipate and prepare for this logical and fair question says just as much about his lack of preparedness to be the Democratic nominee as his own sad hiring record does.

[Padraig18]

22. Saying nothing at all was the best.

It made Sharpton look like the race-baiter he is. I've talked to lots of people today, and everyone who watched the debate said Al came out of that exchange looking LOTS worse than Dean did.

[kodi]

23. that was a cheap shot by sharpton. dean is no bigot

nor is it discrimination that there were no minorities in high positions in dean's administration.

unless someone can produce evidence that dean and his top staff actively worked not to place minorities in the dean administration i think dean did what any governor attempts to do, find the best people of his state to work in its government.

a response to sharpton would be to ask if a black man with clarence thomas' credentials and political philosophy was available for a vermont supreme court appointment, would rev sharpton want dean to nominate him simply because thomas is a minority?

[beaconess]

26. No one called Dean a bigot

and the repeated insistence by Dean supporters that Sharpton did is either wilful distortion of what happened or evidence that you guys just dont's have a clue about race and racism in America. There is a world of difference between being insensitive and/or ignorant and being racist.

For someone who until yesterday was insisting that he was the one to lead the tough talk on race, Howard Dean sure seems unwilling to actually engage in any real discussion. I guess when he says he wants to talk about race, he means that he wants to talk at everyone else about it.

As for the scenario you presented, I guess you must believe that the only possible qualified minority that could be found in Vermont would be someone who thinks like Clarence Thomas. These ridiculous and insulting scenarios that Dean supporters are positing here demonstrate that you and your candidate are certainly not the ones who should be leading the discussion on race. If anything, you seem to be among the people most in need of education on the issue.

[CWebster]

27. Are you suggesting that white people can't participate

in the debate about Race?

[beaconess]

30. Not at all

What I'm saying is that a guy who has the sad hiring record of Howard Dean probably shouldn't be the one to lead the discussion. He's looking more and more like one of the people he thinks needs to be talked to about the issue.

[_Jumper_]

31. No

I believe he or she was saying that people who believe that not a single black or Latino in an entire state had the intelligence to serve as cabinet member have problems on the issue of race.

[kodi]

32. bah ha! i have no dog in this fight, but sharpton's attack was ugly crap

i like dean, but i am independent at this time and have not decided to back ANY candidate.

there is nothing wrong with posing back to sharpton if all he wants is a colored person in a position of power instead of looking at the person's character and capabilities

that was after all what dr king mentioned as his hope for america.

i would be more concerned that dean would leave a cabinet position open because they could not find a minority as qualified as a white person.


sorry to create a disturbance in your Force, but i am one white man who has made it a personal policy to hire minorities when i can and who lost a job for testifing in court in support of a racial workplace discrimination suit against corporate officiers brought by an african american man who worked for me. he is a close friend and has been for decades.

but you touch on a salient point, that being when one like myself speaks up to point out the illogic of remarks like sharpton's, we are accused of knowing nothing about racial problems in america, or worse, being hostile to their resolution.

you are wrong, dead wrong and dreadfully so, and dont even see that allies in the march for complete civil rights can differ on the tactics and strategies.

[_Jumper_]

34. Why didn't Dean practice what he now preaches?

If you believe in diversity you would try to diversify your workforce, right? How can he lecture people on race, diversity, and now claim that he supports affirmative action when he failed to practice what he now preaches before he ran for president (he knows he needs black and Latino votes to win)?

[CWebster]

24. because it reflects reality?

You are stretching...

[diamondsoul]

28. Why would he say that?

What he should have done was leapt in after Sharpton brought up "importing talent" and said

"With all due respect, Al, I was the Governor of Vermont and Vermonters were my priority. I wasn't interested in giving jobs to residents of other States when there were qualified people right there in my own State."

He should have made it clear that he wasn't going to hand off jobs to residents outside his State based on race because that's nothing more than reverse descrimination.

[_Jumper_]

35. He did import talent

Apparently they were all whites from New York City. It just happened that way...

[spooky3]

39. Do you know that to be true? Do you have a link?

If the geographic area from which he drew for cabinet positions went beyond the region I specified in my post, then it is absolutely fair to use the entire area's availability numbers.

[_Jumper_]

40. Cabinet

I don't know if he imported cabinet members but he did import talent from Wall Street.

[spooky3]

29. Sharpton can't have it both ways

Availability is important. In affirmative action compliance we look to see what the available pool is for a given position. If it typically is recruited within a city or small region, but not nationally, that's what should be used to study fairness. Within that area, we look to see who has the degrees, experience, etc., that meet the position, and how that pool breaks down by race etc. If women or African Americans, for example, are 30% of that job's pool, but the organization has only 3% women/AAs working the job, then that gives the applicant considerable ammunition to bring a charge that the org. is not doing a good job or recruiting and hiring them fairly. We don't expect the company to hire 52% women or 13% African American people (which may be the proportion in the general population).

It's not fair to discard the notion of availability as a legitimate reason for %s simply because the truly available pool is quite small, if the hiring is in proportion to these %s. It's not the only thing to look at, but availability absolutely is an acceptable legal tool for analyzing this situation. It's unfair particularly in a debate where to get into this level of detail is impossible and/or boring to the audience. I would have had more respect for Sharpton's inquiry had he done the availability analysis and shown availables were there in greater numbers than the hired, and only if that were the case, to raise the issue.

I do think there's some legitimacy in asking about actual records versus talk, but most of the candidates have not been in a position to appoint women and minorities into important positions beyond their highest office or campaign staff or advisors. Clark is in a unique position because the military has worked hard (long before he was there) to recruit and promote some groups and has a much larger pool to draw from, but senators, and governors from small, homogeneous states have few top level jobs to offer. So if he actually did things himself to improve diversity at highest levels, good for him, but in some ways it's like comparing all the candidates on the number of bills they got through Congress.

[Fleshdancer]

33. I like how Dean responded...by going up to Sharpton to discuss the issue

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3626796/

Embed Tom Llamas says the headline for the Sharpton campaign coming out of last night's debate was that Dean approached Sharpton during the debate and acknowledged Sharpton was right about his record on race. "He reached out. He said you know you are right... we need to talk about it. He reached out and that is the right thing to do, rather than to have an apologist. You can't apologize for a record," said Sharpton. "If I'm going to challenge Bush's record I want to know those that are on the stage with me I understand their record." When asked by another reporter to explain the exchange, Sharpton said: "He told me during one of the breaks let's talk and we talked. He said let's talk. He said your criticism is fair let me explain it to you let's talk about it, which is the right thing to do," said Sharpton. Llamas notes that en route back to DC, Sharpton and his campaign questioned Moseley Braun's motives for defending Dean while attacking Sharpton and Edwards; Sharpton said he found it strange.

-----------------------------

Although Dean hired minorities, he can't deny that his 6 member cabinet had no African-Americans or Hispanics. If he mentioned the percentage of Caucasian people in his state as a defense, we would all be bitching about that too.

I see a man who honestly wants to have dialog. People think he's hypocritical or arrogant for saying so, but I agree that we don't defeat racism in this country by telling minorities how bad they have it. Like it or not, the white population needs to be engaged and I don't hear other candidates making this point. I think Sharpton is wrong, we need to talk about it. The way Dean engaged Sharpton last night also tells me he wants to listen...something as equally important.

When an African-American does or says something offensive in terms of race...for the sake of argument, we'll say Sharpton during the whole rape trial issue, it's reported as a form of reverse racism. But when Rush Limbaugh or Trent Lott says something extremely offensive, it's about them personally. We don't expand on the concept that racism is still alive and well in this country and it's not getting any better.

But that's my personal take on it. I'm sure some will see my Dean avatar and dismiss me regardless, but Dean's concept of taking up the issue with white Americans is one of the many reasons why I chose the Dean avatar in the first place.

[beaconess]

36. Nice post

I don't agree with all you said, but this is one of the first posts I've seen on the topic that defends Dean without attacking his critics or making insulting excuses justifying discrimination.

I hope other Dean supporters read this and consider your point of view.

[CWebster]

37. Coming from someone

who has done little more than attack and now uses an opportunity to be civil as just another opportunity to slip in another backhanded attack.

[Fleshdancer]

38. Thank you beaconess

The personal attacks only take away from the debate and it's getting ridiculous...especially for a Democratic forum.