Dean is against real affirmative action.

[Renew Deal]

Here is an old Dean quote:

<snip>
He also cited a Dean remark from April 9, 1995, in which he was questioned on affirmative action. Dean said: “You know, I think we ought to look at affirmative action programs based, not on race, but on class and opportunities to participate.”
<snip>

http://www.news-record.com/election/edwards/trail31.htm

Why is Dean always on the wrong side of race issues?
He says this today.

"As President, I would pursue policies that encourage racial diversity on campuses because I know that diversity serves important goals -- it produces benefits for all students, and for society as a whole. The Supreme Court decision clears the way for policies that advance both equity and excellence. I also support fair and effective affirmative action in employment, and in programs that aid small disadvantaged businesses, both to remedy discrimination and to build greater diversity and opportunity in all sectors of our society."

http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/cg/index.html?type=page&pagename=policy_statement_civilrights_affirmativeaction

But he doesn't mention his opposition to REAL affirmativee action. Why not come clean Mr. Dean?

[KittyWampus]

1. Dean Usually Says All We Need To Do Is TALK About Race

Political Leaders, White People, Employers-

He almost always says that all they need to do is TALK about the Issue.

I rarely hear Dean (if ever) say we need to implement this program or take these actions.

[AP]

It's not even talk. In his stump speech he says changing

subconscious feelings is the final frontier of race relations.

He wants you to stop thinking things you're not even conscious of thinking.

The only way to set the bar any lower is to say that there's no problem with racism in America and we shouldn't even think about it at all (which, of course, he doesn't say...but, I'm still unimpressed.)

[kerry-is-my-prez]

76. He wants you to stop thinking things you're not even conscious of thinking

gag! What is he - God?

[Clark4VotingRights]

180. Kind of like Bush's policy of voluntary industry compliance for greenhouse

gas and pollution emissions?

[Hawkeye-X]

2. Can we say

Beating a dead horse? It's a class affirmative action that he wants to look into. Look into the archives for it. That one has been talked to death and Dean is right on this one.

Hawkeye-X

[ShimokitaJer]

4. I appreciate your comments, and you're right on...

but I wish you wouldn't use the phrase "beating a dead horse" with that Bronco logo so close by. That last game still hurts a little.

[wtmusic]

lol

too funny :-)

[in_cog_ni_to]

21. Beating a dead horse?

Your Clark horse was dead a long time ago. Dean's disingenuous. He has his Vermont records sealed for a reason. It's these issues he's hiding from voters.

[paulk]

51. Dean is wrong on this one

His position that class as well as race/gender should be a consideration in Affirmative Action is the position taken by the 1995 Supreme Court decision he refers to. A Conservative/Republican Supreme Court. It is not the position taken by the Democratic Party or the position held by the majority of Democrats.

Period.


This HAS been talked to death here on DU, and to see self professed liberal/leftist Dean supporters back up Dean's conservative take on Affirmative Action was very disturbing for me. It led me to question Dean's campaign rhetoric, and set me on the path from ambivalence to outright opposition.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

77. That was the greatest example of Cognitive Dissonance ever seen on DU

The things that his followers have had to rationalize go on and on.

[beaconess]

78. I wonder what Dean would think

if he knew that his supporters were making these insulting arguments in his defense.

Maybe instead of talking to confederate flag wavers about race, he should have a special Meetup and talk to his own followers - seems like many of them, once their true colors show through, have many of the same views and attitudes as the people that Dean has been talking about.

[TLM]

84. Nope, you're wrong on this one...

Dean said nothing about getting rid of or changing the existing AA programs to focus on class and not race. What he said was about establishing NEW programs based on class that are modeled on existing AA programs that are based on race.

This point has been explained several times.

[worldgonekrazy]

136. PLEASE READ: Why Dean is right on affirmative action

This is an issue people have to think about for a moment before they can see where Dean is coming from. I personally have spent a lot of time thinking about/debating this issue in both friendly and academic settings and have come up with the same conclusions as Dr. Dean.

When you make affirmative action about race you are continuing the tradition of race as a defining characteristic. If you TRULY want to move towards a race neutral society you cannot do that by continuing to focus on race alone. You must instead ask yourself WHY it is that race is still an issue (ie economic inequalities) and then address THAT problem, rather than the supposed "problem" of race as a whole.

When you make affirmative action about economics you are STILL helping out minorities in an effective manner, since blacks and hispanics (and other racial minorities) are more economically disadvantaged, on average, than whites. The great thing about making affirmative action about economics, however, is that you are removing race from the face of the issue, which allows us as a country to move towards a day when race truly will not matter (in any negative bearing anyways). PLUS you are helping out underprivileged whites, who may not need it as much as a whole but on an individual level they are just as worthy of aid as their minority counterparts.

Furthermore, I would point out that affirmative action based on race is just plain INEFFECTIVE! For example, let us say that a black student coming from a poor background gets into a good college in part because of affirmative action. Then that black person gets a degree, gets a good job (again, perhaps in part due to affirmative action) and has essentially succeeded in dragging his or herself out of the lower class. Great. But what about when that person's KIDS are applying for college? They do not have the disadvantage of coming from a lower class, since their parents managed to get out of that. But they STILL get the advantages of affirmative action EVEN THOUGH THEY DON'T NEED IT! It isn't fair and it doesn't make for good policy.

If you based it on economics, however, it would get rid of that possibility entirely.

Please, please, please think about this issue before you make a knee jerk response. Disagree on the idea if you want, but don't automatically assume that Dean is assailing the spirit of affirmative action. His problem is with the implementation, not the ideal.

142. hear hear

I hope your point communicates. I'm afraid, judging from a fairly large percentage of the 135 posts on this thread, it will get ignored, as a look through them has probably already shown you, since there have already been some attempts by others to make the same type of point you are making. Count me as one of them.

[paulk]

176. If affirmative action is about class or income

then it's not affirmative action.

Affirmative Action grew out of the civil rights movement to address systematic discrimination against minorities and women. Race and Gender.

It's not about economic inequality - it's about discrimination. That's what AA IS. If you want a program that's based on economics or class, fine. But don't conflate economic inequality with race or gender based discrimination - they're two different things.

Affirmative Action programs exist to address RACE and GENDER based DISCRIMINATION. Your essay misses that point completely.

[sangh0]

195. Dean and some of his supporters don't know about AA and discrimination

They think it's about poverty.

[_Jumper_]

3. When did Dean convert into a believer in diversity?

He certainly didn't see much value in it prior to running for an office that requires substantial minority support...

[mouse7]

7. Dean is certainly Better than Al From

The leader of the organization you display loyalty to with the DLC logo there just gave a tribute to Newt.

Last night you said you display the DLC logo as a tribute to Clinton. If you want to give tribute to Clinton, show a picture of Clinton.

The DLC is now a tool of Al From and the right.

[Eloriel]

31. And speaking of Al From and the DLC --

The DLC is precisely where that falacious bit of "class rather than race" originated. You won't find Dean saying anything LIKE that since.

It's the kind of "thinking" that sounds good on the surface -- until you start thinking about it in some depth or have some decent grounding in the sociology of racism.

In short, any attempt to remove minority status from the heart and soul of Affirmative Action does just that: remove minorities from consideration.

Dean knows better now, though I've seen that argument promoted here innumerable times over the last two years. Those of you who would jump on Dean for this 8+ year old statement better be right goddamned here to jump all over it the next time some DUer brings it up.

Eloriel

[sangh0]

35. Blame the Dems for the Repukes crimes

Dean does it, so I guess his uspporters should too.

"Class, not race" is a Republican invention, contrary to the bogus claims from Eloriel. Heritage, CATO, etc were pimping the idea years before the DLC was formed, along with "AA is a race-based program". Reagan, who was elected before the DLC was formed, campaigned against "racial preferences"

Dean knows better now

According to Dean, Dean never wanted to eliminate race from AA, so I don't see how he "knows better now".

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cheswick2.0]

61. and THANK GOD FOR HUGE FAVORS!!!!

that bean eating gas bag is all we need to put the final nails in the coffin of the democratic party.


Sorry you don't get the Dean thing, but no matter how many times you post it, Dean isn't working with or for the DLC.

[sangh0]

66. Straw man

I didn't say Dean worked with or for the DLC. I said that Dean agrees with many of the DLC's positions, a point you didn't even try to refute.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

79. Well at least you guys have stopped saying "he's better than Bush"

Al From is probably a better comparison for you to use...

[Walt Starr]

97. Hey, I've heard that before

B-)

[redqueen]

5. Pretty shrewd

Dean seems to know that this taps into a vein of discontent which is one of if not *the* key reason that most white males vote Republican. Taken together with the flag comments, this could be a very shrewd maneuver indeed. His newfound support for AA may disillusion some, but I think this group has learned by now that they have to settle for code.

Interesting...

[_Jumper_]

10. Does he wink-and-nod at discrimination?

Essentially he says that racial discrimination is bad but "everyone does it" which is another thing that the people that you mentioned want to hear.

[redqueen]

17. I won't accuse Dean of doing that

But I do know that if this is the crowd he is trying to pry from Bush's column, then that is exactly what they think. This group considers it natural and acceptable to discriminate. In fact they bristle because they feel that other groups are allowed to do it openly, and that only they are prevented.

This is a HUGE issue for some folks. Many Southern people with liberal leanings fiscally speaking will not go near a Dem due to it.

[AP]

13. I agree with what (I think) you're saying

I think Dean is intentionally trying to tap into American's worst instincts in dealing with race, rather than their best.

Perhaps his intention is to change to a liberal on race when he gets elected and that America is only going elect someone who talks like that. I still don't like it because I think it's bad for America to admire someone who says the things he is subtley saying about race.

But, you know, I'm starting to wonder if Dean ever really wanted to win. I'm wondering if he's part of a bigger plan to create and artificial front leader who will lose to someone who is more liberal on the issues that matter (race, taxes, middle class opportunity). If he loses to someone, that someone will be seen as having a real triumph. Then the nominee can go off to fight Bush with this imprimature of having really achieved something in the primary -- having beaten a person who's conservative on important issues and who has a ton of money. It'd be a good way to start battle with Bush.

Maybe Dean really is taking one for the team.

[redqueen]

20. Ya got me

But I will be surprised if Dean doesn't do well in the South. He's saying *exactly* what a lot of people want to hear.

[Eloriel]

33. Absolute bullshit, redqueen and AP

Not only is Dean NOT a racist -- in any way -- I've seen him in the South personally. It was in August of last year. He did exactly what he had been saying he would do when campaigning in the South: talk to white audiences (and of course we had African Americans in there too) about race. He did it in a thoughtful but intense way that left me nearly in tears.

Further, he may not have had any minority cabinet members, but he had minority personal staff members AND -- even more important, IMO, since he's drawing from a larger "population" area, his campaign staff is the very picture of diversity. Blacks, Hispanics, Native American.

All this speculation about Dean appealing to racists on the basis of code words is absolute bullshit and incredibly unworthy of the DUers who are even HINTING at it, and unworthy of DU as a whole. Shame on all of you. Shame on you further for smearing ANYone without bothering to inform yourselves better or, in this case, at all.

Eloriel

[AP]

37. Putting minorities on your campaign staff to make up for

your record (which includes advocationg that race be dropped as criteria for AA) is the equivalent of rolling up your sleeves to mid-bicep so that people don't think of you as a son of privilege.

Also, I did not call Dean a racist and I don't think he's one.

But I think he's all wrong about race, for all the reasons I've said.

And I don't think he's appealing to racists. I think he's appealing to white people on race in the same way that a movie like Monster's Ball or Bagger Vance do: they make you think the problem with race is how it makes white people feel. It's very complicated, but it has more to do with appealing to people's worst instincts rather than appealing to their best instincts in order to arrive at a similar end (except that the road you take may end up doing damage to that end).

[Name removed]

86. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AP]

175. Yes he did. He said on CNN during the mid 90s AA debate that

we should consider dropping race as a factor in AA.

On an up or down vote on whether race-based AA is good, Dean would have given it the thumbs down.

You can imagine scenarios which mitigate the damage that statement does to Dean's credibility on this issue, but you have to deal with the reality of his statement.

[redqueen]

39. Um, you might want to back up a bit there, before you have a heart attack

Yes, it was speculation. Did I say Dean was racist? No.

I like how you try to 'shame' everyone for speculating on something, likening it unto a 'smear'. Please!

Some people are starting to take themselves and their 'sainted' candidates WAAAAY too seriously around here!

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Eloriel]

57. Sangh0

You'll be hardpressed indeed to find any comment of mine that says that.

I have been -- and will continue to be -- highly critical of claims here on DU that Kerry will bring down the BFEE if he's elected. You'll find me critical of what he hasn't done betweeen then (the BCCI investigations) and now, including TALK about it AT ALL on the campaign trail or anywhere for that matter.

But you won't find me alleging that Kerry is IN with the BFEE. I just think he's a spineless coward, and that arguments that we should elect him to do the job of bringing down the BFEE are specious, at best.

Now -- why don't you go find something to TRY to back up your allegation about me? That should keep you out of trouble for a few days.

Eloriel

[sangh0]

68. Like I said, it's not gonna happen

Eloriel will never admit her mistakes.

[Eloriel]

53. Oh, come on

Just TRY to convince me that speculating as you and AP were doing isn't smearing. It's called smearing by INNUENDO. Don't try to cover your tracks with such word parsing.

And let's quit dancing around the subject and refusing to call a thing what it is, for taking the New Political Correctness to heart. I've heard Dem Congresspeople say, "I don't think Trent Lott is a racist." BULL. He's racist through and through. Is he overt about it? Of course not. Does he hire African Americans? Sure -- just as Strom Thurmond did. Doesn't mean he's not a racist.

Your "speculation" paints Dean as a racist. Anyone who appeals to racism IS a racist. Anyone who harbors racist thoughts IS a racist. Hillary Clinton revealed her own racism with her tawdry Gandhi "joke" the other day. Shame on her.

So don't try to tell me that you don't think Dean is a racist and didn't call him that -- you, and Sharpton, most certainly have. You just couched it in terms appropriate to the New (Republican) Political Correctness.

Eloriel

[AP]

54. I feel that what I'm doing is a close reading of what Dean is saying

I'm just listening to him.

[TLM]

88. You are not listening...

You are looking for words to twist around your pre-conceived attack.

[AP]

177. Not pre-conceived. I'm truly listening.

If you have a better theory about what he's trying to say, put it forth.

I think it's revealing that the counterargument to my interpretation isn't an alternative interpretation based on the text (Dean's own words) but it's an attack on ME.

[redqueen]

56. Cover my tracks? It's time for you to give me a break, now.

I know very well that we can't have an honest debate about racism here. It's a liberal forum. This is not the place.

However, know this: I grew up in Texas. I probably have very different ideas about what constitutes racism than you do. The way you described it, racism is in someone's heart and there's nothing you can do to change it so what's the point in worrying about it?

Do I know Dean? No. Do I claim to? No. I don't think he's a racist and never have. But do I know this for a fact? No. DO I care? Not really. It's stupid.

When I speculate about the positions Dean's taken on certain issues, I'm speculating about his record. You can try to smear me, by implying that I'm implying something about Dean, but I trust you can see how pointless and stupid this exercise gets about this point.

Go ahead, crucify me. See if I care.

But you could do yourself a favor and try and look at the situation realistically. Nobody made up those quotes. Dean said them. You may not like the implications he gave with those statements, but they are there for people to speculate on. It's still a free country, right? :eyes:

[Eloriel]

62. Oh, yes, he said those things

And shame on him. Shame on him for buying into the DLC talking points for even a second.

The IMPORTANT thing is that he doesn't believe that any more. Maybe he thought it through, maybe someone "educated" him. Who knows? Heaven forbid a guy learn and grow, and work his ass off trying to make the country a better place, INCLUDING healing the racial divide.

If you haven't read it, you really do owe yourself a look at his speech on the subject:

Restoring the American Community - SC, Dec. 7, 2003
http://blog.deanforamerica.com/archives/002565.html#more

DU thread: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=844281#846961

Black Commentator on the speech http://www.blackcommentator.com/68/68_cover_dean.html

[redqueen]

63. You missed this part: I don't care

I was simply pointing out that if what I presumed might be accurate then it was indeed very shrewd.

As for whether or not he's racist - I really don't care. I care about issues. Whether he's a racist or not is not an issue to me.

[sangh0]

67. So where does Dean admit he changed his opinion?

So far, all I've seen on this subject is that Dean DENIES ever wanting to eliminate the use of race in AA. He falsely claimed that he wanted to add class to AA and leave race as a factor in AA. Unfortunately, in 1995 he said "not race, but class" and you don't have to be an English major to understand (as you acknowledge) that Dean said he wanted to eliminate race in AA.

So where does Dean acknowledge a change in opinion and how does he explain it?

[TLM]

98. What is so hard to understand?

Dean never said anything about eliminating anything from existing AA programs. He was talking about developing NEW programs modeled after AA but that address class instead of race.

[sangh0]

105. I think we ought to look at affirmative action programs based, not on race

Dean said "Not on race"

There's nothing too hard to understand about that.

[TLM]

108. Yes, and look at the words before it....

Show me where he said we should change aa programs that exist or that we should remove race as a factor from existing AA programs?

You can;t because he never said it.


What he said is that we should look at AA programs based not on race, but on class. NEW PROGRAMS, that are modeled after AA programs for race, but that address class disadvantages.

Again, crying the mantra of he said "not on race" doesn;t change the fact he was talking about NEW PROGRAMS that are based on class and not race. Nowhere did he say one word about altering existing AA programs in any way.

But then, you know this... however the truth simply doesn't make for a very good attack, does it?

[sangh0]

110. "New" programs???

I'll take a page from your book and ask you to post his 1995 quote about "new programs" relating to class, but "not race"

You can't because he didn't say it. At least, not until he was caught on it in 2003.

[TLM]

114. Of course he was talking about new programs...

not only has he pointed this out recently, but that fact is clear in the statment. At least when you bother to quote the statement in context?

[sangh0]

115. Then provide the quote from 1995

where Dean says he wants to create "new programs"

You cant do it because Dean never said it in 1995.

At least when you bother to quote the statement in context?

You want context? OK

In 1995 the Repukes were trying to eliminate the use of race in AA. They argues that AA should be about class and income, not race. Dean agreed with the Republicans.

Are you happy now?

[TLM]

117. You said that you knew he was not talking of new programs...

So obviously you must have the whole transcript. So post it.


That is unless you are again trying to spin one line out of context.


post the transcript.

[sangh0]

118. You said he WAS talking about new programs

So the burden of proof is on you. Either you support your assertion, or don't expect anyone else to believe it. If you won't support your own assertions, no one else will.

Post the quote from 1995 where Dean said he was talking about "new programs"

[TLM]

121. Are you saying you don't have the transcript?

or that it doesn't support your misrepresentation of Dean position?

[sangh0]

122. No, I am saying

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=105154#107030

[TLM]

124. You made comments about what was not in the transcript....

so obviously if you're making comments about the content of the transcript, you must have it.


So pelase post it.

[sangh0]

126. You made comments about what was in the transcript

so obviously if you're making comments about the content of the transcript, you must have it.


So pelase post it.

[TLM]

128. So you can;t do it.... you flat out said soemthing was not in there

yet you do not have the transcript.

[sangh0]

130. So you can;t do it.... you flat out said soemthing was in there

yet you do not have the transcript

[TLM]

135. So repeating people is what you do, when you've been caught

making comments on source info you don;t have.


See it is simple. I made a comment about what IS in the transcript because I have that part of it. I will post it, but not yet.


You made claims about what's NOT in the transcript... which means you must have the WHOLE thing in order to make such a claim.

So if you can't post the whole thing... if proves you are making claims that are baseless about source material which you do not have.

[beaconess]

134. I have the transcript:

Here's the entire exchange:

JEAN MESERVE: Governor Carlson, affirmative action is another topic that is already being debated here in Washington. Is it time to review those programs?

Gov. ARNE CARLSON: I think just about every state is and the president is doing precisely the same thing as his Congress, so I think it's a given that it's going to be reviewed. Here in Minnesota, we're very firmly committed to making sure that all people have equal opportunity, and that's where the stress is going to be. We have a strong set aside program and we intend on keeping that set aside program. But let me quickly shift to Medicaid, because I think that's where the battleground is going to be. I don't think it's going to be a question, so much, of flexibility as it is, frankly, an ability to make a transition from a very costly federal-state program to one that's going to be trimmed down and the transition is what we're going to have to negotiate with the Senate, because some of the reductions in the growth of spending are going to have an enormous impact on states. In Minnesota, they're talking about a possible reduction in growth of about $.5 billion. So we are very much concerned.

JEAN MESERVE: Governor Dean, are you at all alarmed at this talk of eliminating affirmative action programs?

Gov. HOWARD DEAN: You know, I think we ought to look at affirmative action programs based not on race but on class, and opportunity to participate.

JEAN MESERVE: You sound like Newt Gingrich.

Gov. HOWARD DEAN: Well I don't know what Newt Gingrich-

Gov. GEORGE ALLEN: No, Newt Gingrich hates class warfare. Newt Gingrich would not ever want to .

JEAN MESERVE: But he's talked about a means test for affirmative action.

Gov. HOWARD DEAN: Well I think people from working class families who have not had the opportunity- the educational opportunity, regardless of whether they're white or black, ought to be given some kind of opportunity, and that may mean doing something for those groups of people, but I don't think it ought to be done by race.

JEAN MESERVE: And we're going to have to leave it there, I'm afraid. Governor Dean, Governor Allen, Governor Bayh and Governor Carlson, thank you all for joining us.


So, where in this transcript did Dean say anything about "new programs?"

[sangh0]

137. C'mon TLM!!!

Where's the Dean quote about "new programs"?

What's confusing about "but I don't think it ought to be done by race"?

[TLM]

143. Programs that do not exist, are by definition new programs.

The point is he did not say one word about changing existing AA or removing race from AA.

He is talking about programs to help the poor regardless of race... new programs.

[TLM]

140. Awww you ruined my fun.... you have the same part I do.

Now read it again....

Gov. HOWARD DEAN: You know, I think we ought to look at affirmative action programs based not on race but on class, and opportunity to participate.

Gov. HOWARD DEAN: Well I think people from working class families who have not had the opportunity- the educational opportunity, regardless of whether they're white or black, ought to be given some kind of opportunity, and that may mean doing something for those groups of people, but I don't think it ought to be done by race.

"So, where in this transcript did Dean say anything about "new programs?"


He's talking about development of programs that don't exist to help those not helped by existing AA programs... "regardless of whether they're white or black, ought to be given some kind of opportunity, and that may mean doing something for those groups of people..."

And he clealry said what should not be race based is the help for poor folks. He does not say AA should be changed or that race should be removed.

[sangh0]

144. Dean says nothing about "new programs"

but he does say about AA "but I don't think it ought to be done by race"

BTW, AA is not a poverty program. I guess a conservative like Dean isn't all that familiar with AA or civil rights issues in general.

[TLM]

148. Programs that do not exist are, by definition new programs.

"but he does say about AA "but I don't think it ought to be done by race"

He did not say that about AA, but about programs for the groups of working class people who have not had educational oppertuinity.

Why continue to misrepresent a quote that is right there for all to see?

"Well I think people from working class families who have not had the opportunity- the educational opportunity, regardless of whether they're white or black, ought to be given some kind of opportunity, and that may mean doing something for those groups of people, but I don't think it ought to be done by race."


Doing something for those groups that is not based on race.... clearly Dean is talking about new programs for this group of folks, programs not based on race.

The context shows his comment wasn't about altering AA, but doing something for these poor folks that is not race based.

[sangh0]

151. Dean was talking about AA

and even the interviewer noted how much like Newt Dean sounded.

He did not say that about AA, but about programs for the groups of working class people who have not had educational oppertuinity

When Dean said "I don't think it ought to be done by race." they were talking about AA, not new programs. Why would Dean talk about poverty programs when the subject was AA (not a poverty program)?

[TLM]

155. Nope, and the transcript proves he was not....

"People from working class families who have not had the educational opportunities, regardless about whether they're white or black, ought to be given some kind of opportunity. And that may mean doing something for those groups of people."

Dean was talking about a program(s) to addressed provety... to do something for working class people without educational opportunities regardless of race. It is right there, and the truth can be found in which one of us has to chop the quote apart to try and support our point about what is being said.

I quote the whole line to show that what Dean is talking about is help for the poor that is not based on race. Dean used AA programs as an example... of a program that helps a group based on a disadvantage and said we should look at programs like that for helping a group based on a different disadvantage.

That's why he said we should LOOK at AA programs and not we should CHANGE AA programs.

[sangh0]

156. They were talking about AA

and anyone who reads the transcript can see that. Even Dean supporters (like Eloriel) admit it.

Dean was talking about a program(s) to addressed provety

Why? The question was about AA, not poverty. Is Dean unable to answer a simple question?

[TLM]

167. THEY were talking about AA overall... and Dean commented on

and area that AA does not address, poverty, which needs to be addressed.

Yet you take a part fo a sentance and try to act as if Dean said it about AA, when the quote shows clearly he said it about help for the poor working class folks who need help.

[beaconess]

157. Wow - that's amazing

Howard Dean nowhere in that transcripts says a word about "new programs" nor were "new programs" discussed anywhere therein. In fact he said that he didn't think that affirmative action "ought to be done by race" and you somehow divine from that he was talking about developing new programs in addition to those based on race?

Another fine example of a Dean supporter telling the rest of us not to believe Dean's plain language but instead, interpret what you say "Dr. Dean REALLY meant."

Thank God Dean has you to tell us what he really means when he talks.

[sangh0]

160. Why does "plain talk" need so many explanations?

.

[TLM]

170. Because some dishonest people care more about using distortions

to attack Dean, than they do about the truth of what was said.

[TLM]

169. Oh please... you folks reach so hard.

So let me get this clear... Dean talks about programs to help the poor regardless of race, yet because he did not use the specific term "new programs" then he wasn't talking about new programs to help the poor.


Yet even though he never said a word about "changing AA" or "removing race from AA" you folks devine that he meant he wanted to eliminate race as a factor in AA?


Read the quote... Dean is talking about something AA doesn't do, and saying we should do something to help these folks regardless of race.

He's not saying we should change or get rid of race in AA. He said he wants to do soemthing for these working class folks, like what AA does, but that is not based on race.

[Name removed]

91. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TLM]

99. Eloriel Dean did not take this position...

Dean never said anything about changing AA or getting rid of race as a standard.

Dean was talking about NEW programs to address class disadvantages, that are like AA. He was saying we need to look at programs like AA programs, but that address class and not race.

In other words he's talking about using AA programs as the model for developing OTHER programs to address the areas that existing AA programs to not address.

[sangh0]

106. I think we ought to look at affirmative action programs based, not on race

"Not on race" is Dean's position

[TLM]

109. Repeat the misrepresentation all you want...

it won't change the fact that Dean was talking about additinal programs that address class and not race.... and was not talking about altering existing AA in any way.


next?

[sangh0]

112. I think we ought to look at affirmative action programs based, not on race

"Not on race"

Dean said nothing about additional new programs in 1995. Back then, he was on his Republican kick for balanced budgets and was not about to promote new programs. That would be too liberal for Dean

[TLM]

116. AH really he said nothing about new programs?

SO then I expect you must have the transcript from that CNN segment where he made the statement in 95.

I mean if you can comment of what is and is not contained int hat segment, you must have it, right? Otherwise you'd be well... talking about something which you have no knowledge of.

So please post the transcript.

[sangh0]

119. response

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=105154&mesg_id=107030&page=

[TLM]

123. You made a comment on what was NOT in the transcript....

so obviously you must have it, in order to coment of what's not there.


So why can't you post it?

Have you been caught making claims about source material which you do not have?

[sangh0]

127. response

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=105154&mesg_id=107030&page=

[TLM]

129. Repeating yourself won;t change the fact that you're caught

Caught red handed making claims about the content of a transcript which you do not have.

[sangh0]

131. Repeating yourself won;t change the fact that you're caught

Caught red handed making claims about the content of a transcript which you do not have

[sangh0]

139. response

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=105154&mesg_id=107150

"but I don't think it ought to be done by race"

[TLM]

145. Again why is a whole sentance so hard to quote...

What Dean is saying should nto be based on race is the help for poor people... not the existing afirmative action programs.

[sangh0]

147. AA is not a poverty program

which is why it has no income tests. It's not surprising that whitebread conservative like Dean doesn't realize that AA is about discrimination, and not poverty.

[TLM]

150. Yeah and Dean OBVIOUSLY wasn't talking about AA was he?

Dean was talking about a program like AA that addresses proverty regardless of race the way that AA addresses race.

The transcript shows this clearly. Dean is talking about doing something for poor folks regardless of race, not about changing AA programs.

[sangh0]

152. Dean said nothing about "new programs"

which is why you STILL haven't posted a Dean quote from 1995 where he says that. You can't because Dean NEVER said it.

The transcript makes it clear that they were discussing AA, not some imaginary poverty program.

Dean was talking about a program like AA that addresses proverty

AA is NOT a poverty program. AA does NOT address proverty.

[TLM]

166. Apparently we do not understand the meaning of the word LIKE.

Programs LIKE AA... meaning programs that are similiar to or hold some resemblence to. IOW programs like AA, but that address class and not race.

It is like saying... "We should look at messages boards like DU, that are for republicans instead of democrats."

That's not the same thing as saying...we should change DU to be only for republicans.

Do you understand?

Dean was talking about developing a poverty program, that was built like AA but addressed class, not race.

[sangh0]

187. Apparently Dean doesn't understand DISCRIMINATION

which is why he talks about poverty programs when others ask about a discrimination program (AA). Dean doesn't realize that even non-poor minorities are discriminated against. He doesn't want to help them, just the poor whites with confederate flags.

Dean was talking about developing a poverty program, that was built like AA but addressed class, not race

AA is not a poverty program. You might want to let Dean know that there's a difference between poverty and discrimination. His years as governor of a white dominated state has distorted his understanding of racial issues.

Furthermore, AA does not "address race". It addresses various specific forms of discrimination.

[beaconess]

191. Someone also needs to tell Dean that such programs

already exist, thus there is no need for "new programs" to address this issue. For example, most colleges and universities - including the University of Michigan (whose race-based affirmative action plan was attacked using many of the same arguments that Dean supporters are using to justify Dean's poor record on diversity) - have programs that offer preferences to people based upon income and socio-economic status. If Howard Dean understood affirmative action he would know this.

[TLM]

87. It is disgusting the low levels to which these people will sink

They know their calling Dean a racist is total bullshit based on their own warped misrepresentation of Dean's statements.

That's why they suddenly back off and feign offense when you call them on this shit. "Oh...my whatever gave you the impression I was calling Dean a racist when I said he hates black people... stop reading into my posts."

It is shit, and they know it as well as everybody else. They're desperate because their candidates are losing. But what they fail to comprehend is that their candidates are losing because of this exact type of unfounded gotcha bullshit.

[redqueen]

89. Lots of cursing and hyperbole.

Care to quote someone on any of this rant? Or are you just making unfounded accusations for fun? (imagine that)

:eyes:

[TLM]

100. Sorry names and quotes would be against the rules...

I do not want my posts getting deleted.

[redqueen]

104. Well, in that case, let me just say

I never called Dean a racist.

I never misrepresented Dean's statements.

So you must not be talking about me in all your hyperbole and cursing. :D

[FubarFly]

149. You're right TLM

People are sick of this "gotcha" bullshit. It won't work no matter how hard they try. Not that it will stop the likes of John Kerry from trying.

[TLM]

171. Yeah I love how they imply all this anti-AA stuff

like Dean saying race should be removed from exiting AA programs or that AA should be changed... even though he said no such thing.


Yet when I point out that Dean;s talking about new programs, they cry that since the exact quote "new programs" doesn't exsist int eh statement, dean wasn't talking about new programs.

Nevermind that what the transcript shows Dean was clearly talking about was doing something to help poor folks that is like AA programs, but that is based on class instead of race... which is a program that doesn't exist and therefore would be, by definition a new program.

Truth just doesn't make for good race baiting bashing attacks on Dean.

[beaconess]

159. Speaking of bullshit - who called Dean a racist?

Answer: Nobody

[sangh0]

192. C'mon TLM!! Who called Dean a racist?

You said some called Dean a racist. Back it up

[paulk]

59. I think there are quite a few minority voters

who are tired of settling for code.

"The Supreme Court decision clears the way for policies that advance both equity and excellence." - Dean

In other words, Dean supports the 1995 decision that includes "class" as a determining factor - a decision that was not supported by the Democratic Party.

Dean is hoping that he can pull enough of the white male vote to offset the minority vote that decides to sit this one out? The black vote is the most reliable vote the Democrats have - to risk their alienation seems to me a very dangerous game.

[ShimokitaJer]

6. Nice distraction, by the way

I notice you're not even trying to defend Clark on his Iraq-al Qaeda links anymore. Let's dredge up a 1995 Dean quote, misinterpret it, and see if we can draw some attention away from our candidate. Brilliant.

[Renew Deal]

22. I am going through DU

one post at a time.

[ShimokitaJer]

26. I apologize

I was being presumptious. You are now back at the other thread defending your candidate. I'm sorry to jump to conclusions.

[in_cog_ni_to]

8. Because

We ALL know that a POOR AA will be chosen over a POOR white for college and jobs. And we ALL know that a RICH AA will be chosen over a RICH white for college and jobs. Right, the "class" thing works because we have NO racism in this country. At least, in Dean's world there is no racism in the good old USA. :eyes:

[_Jumper_]

14. No Dean admits that we have racism

But hey, according to him "everyone does it"...

[in_cog_ni_to]

27. The Silver Spoon Syndrome.

I don't "do it", my family doesn't "do it" and it's offensive to me that he "thinks" we do.

He needs to get out in the real world. His time in the Hamptons and on Park Ave. have skewed his perspective. Sharpton proved last nice that Dean is ALL TALK and has never walked the walk. He's clueless about race relations.

[DarkPhenyx]

9. I think he is on exactly the right side of the issue.

Go Dean. Afermative Action as it is being practiced in this country is soon to become a dismal failure. Eventually, if it isn't modified to correct the flaws, it will begin to have more of a negative effect thatn it already is.

[_Jumper_]

12. I agree

However, a class-based program will not address the serious problem of racial discrimination.

[AP]

16. We don't use class as a proxy to address gender discrimination

we don't use gender as a proxy to address religious discrimination.

It makes no sense to use class or gender or religion to address race discrimination.

If you don't want to use race, then just admit: you don't think race is a problem, or you don't care to fix racial problems. But don't pretend that you can address racism by not addressing race.

[_Jumper_]

18. I agree

I oppose affirmative action but we must replace it with an alternative that is tailored to deal with the major problem of racial discrimination, not with a program aimed to make neo-Confederates happy.

[TLM]

101. Gosh Jumper I wonder if that why Dean was talking about NEW PROGRAMS

Dean never said one word about getting rid of race in AA or changing AA.

He was talking about additional programs addressing class that are modeled on AA programs that address race.


What is so fucking hard about this idea that so many otherwise reasonable people can't seem to comprehend it?

[AP]

178. Even if one conceded that your version were true, it's still bad for Dean.

How do you think dropping it in new programs makes Dean any better on race?

[beaconess]

181. Don't you get it?

It's another way for Dean to eradicate discrimination by further improving the lives of white people.

[AP]

185. Oh I get it now.

It's like when he fought discrimination by hiring more white men in his office.

[beaconess]

186. NOW you're catching on!

[wtmusic]

11. How do you define *real* affirmative action?

?

[ShimokitaJer]

15. "affirmative action practiced by candidates other than Dean"

nt

[wtmusic]

32. Got it, thanks

:silly:

[DoveTurnedHawk]

19. Dean Is Not a Racist, But He Is Weak on Issues of Race

Anyone who thinks Dean is some kind of crusader for racial issues hasn't been paying attention.

DTH

23. why this isn't a problem for me

first the joke -- because I'm white?
No, that's not the reason.
It's because I view race inequality as a particular subset of class inequality - a Marxist (yes I'm going to use that word) perspective.
If you look at the cutting edge of Black Nationalism, they go with this marxist perspective also. Both Amiri Baraka and Angela Davis started as black nationalists and became marxist.

One historical example (which the confederate flag uproar highlighted). The term "white trash" came into being in the reconstruction when it was in the interests of former plantation owners to divide by race two groups whose interests actually coincided. Race was used to split the power of two factions who actually had economic interests in common. The same thing is being done today.

If anything, I applaud Dean for talking about this stuff. I find it kind of surprising actually & when I first heard him talking about it a couple of years ago, it is actually one of the things that made me start paying attention to him. I'm one of those people that think that when Gore was accused of engaging in class warfare by Bush, he should have come right back at him.

[cryofan]

24. I somewhat agree with Dean

AA should be based on past income and wealth. And it should be far more widespread. Many people should be eligible for it.

[beaconess]

29. Of course - why should only blacks benefit from a plan

designed to remedy decades of racial discrimination and ensure racial diversity in education and the workplace? We all know that white folks just don't have enough opportunities to advance in America so let's make black people share the one benefit that has been made available to them.

:-)

[corporatewhore]

38. just another tool the black man uses to keep the white brothers down

:crazy:

[cryofan]

49. nope, race based affirm action is how the ruling elite smashed...

....the welfare state. They used race to demonize welfare and other social benefits. If we had made sure that the welfare state was scrupulously race neutral, we could have already had REAL welfare states and scads of time off like the citizens of the social democracies in Europe.

I will repeat: the more that the ruling elite are able to show that govt social services, benefits and advantages go disproportionately to preferred minorities, the further down the laissez faire, neoliberal, corporatist road we will go. Wake the F*UCK up, people. Goverment is our best tool against the ruling monied elite, but when we use govt to divide us by race, we will lose and lose and lose to the elite.

Try reading some of the social democracy and welfare state links on my sig URL.

[corporatewhore]

55. umm actually more whites are on welfare but what about diversity

in 1996, California voters approved Proposition 209, a ballot initiative which said that race could not be considered as a factor for hiring or admissions in any state institution. After the University of California system enacted the ban against affirmative action, schools like UC Berkeley found that the admittance rates of underrepresented minority students dropped by a staggering 14 percent in 1997. The freshman class at UCLA this year has only 281 Blacks out of 10,507 incoming students. The decreasing number of minority students detracts from the learning process for all students because it limits the range of perspectives present in class discussions.

When White, Black, Asian, Latino, Arab, and other students are brought together in a classroom, they can better understand their differences and destroy racist stereotypes that have been so ingrained in our nation's mentality. I met a professor at UCLA who told me affirmative action programs have actually decreased racial hostilities between different groups because of this classroom learning process. When students learn in a more tolerant and diverse environment, everyone benefits from the experience.
http://www.wiretapmag.org/story.html?StoryID=16085

[cryofan]

64. race and perception

We could have a GREAT welfare state available to everyone if we could just convince the public that the tax dollars would be distributed to everyone fairly.

You need to understand that it is perceptions that must be controlled. And when the govt is hip deep in racial discrimination via affirmative action, it gets REAL HARD to convince people to increase taxes.

This is why taxes have been dropped over the last 20 years: the white people making up the majority of the nation saw that the govt was deep into race and racial disrimination. We used to have a MUCH BETTER welfare state 25 years ago. I know--I was there. And taxes were much higher on the rich. Over 70%!

But after years of media reports on welfare and how it was going to preferred minority welfare mothers, the white populace grew to feel that their tax dollars were being spent unfairly. And so therefore the controlling elite in the GOP and Dem parties were able to cut taxes. This really happened mainly in the reagan years.
Perhaps the govt (state and fed) should be unable to collect racial data. Racial data collection by govts should perhaps be illegal.

....Just read the links in my sig url.

[corporatewhore]

71. when we are a colorblind society maybe but still whites recieve more

welfare

[corporatewhore]

58. wtf preferred minorities do white people get stopped for being white?

If you and i get convicted of a crime i would get a tougher sentence and if we do the same job i would get payed less based on statistics.

65. when we use govt to divide us by race, we will lose and lose and lose to t

Finally, someone who thinks in the terms I was trying to get at in my post above (23), which nobody has touched. Can't help but wonder why.

[redqueen]

69. I agree wholeheartedly, cryofan

But this has become such an emotionally-charged issue that most people will reflexively kneejerk to whatever they were raised to believed. As a result, the elites stay safely esconced from any threat to their rule. Great setup, eh?

[corporatewhore]

70. Oh yeah Blacks and Latinos are elites

thats why we are still are recieving less pay for the same job and recieving harsher punishment for the same crimes

[redqueen]

72. You misread

Elites are not defined by the color of their skin, but by the size of their income, and the amount of power they have in the game.

As long as they can count on their corporate-whore media to talk only about race in issues of police brutality when it's WHITE cops beating a non-white victim, then the elites are safe from any serious examination of their role in controlling the system. Because all the pigeons will get busy trying to fight each other, and will ignore the larger issues. The camps divide nearly as well as if they had been trained, to fight each other, and ignore the big picture.

We are most definitely being played.

[corporatewhore]

74. ok about income.....

i will get payed less than you for doing the same job talk about oppression!!! there was a study done awhile back that found that empoyers were more likely to hire people with white sounding names like jared and john than ethnic sounding names like jamal and juan based simply on resumes
http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/2003/01/01-31-03tdc/01-31-03dnews-01.asp

[redqueen]

80. I will not be divided

And as a half-Mex, I will sooner be divided by my GENDER than my race, thank you very much.

My solidarity is not with people of color, or with vaginas. My solidarity is with people, period.

[corporatewhore]

82. i understand what you are talking about but you cant write off racism

or sexism we must confront white male prvilage it working class whites are oppressed and priviliged at the sme time

[redqueen]

85. Oh yes I can.

And I have. :)

Note: this does not mean I do not admit it is a problem. This only means I do not rate it very highly as something to fight about.

One thing that really bothers me more than anything else in politics is the ability of people to become narrowly focused on what benefits either their groups or groups which include people they care about. This 'clannish' behavior is nearly always self-defeating. Divide and conquer, you know.

I have noticed how often gay issues are played up by the media, and I know why, therefore I no longer pay too much attention to it.

I also have noticed how often minority-issues are played up by the media, and I know why, therefore I no longer pay much attention to it.

Another thing I notice is which stories are most definitely NOT played up by the media. I know why, and I focus like a laser on these.

We are allowing ourselves to be distracted and divided.

[corporatewhore]

92. when we are denied basic rights

like right to marry
right to vote (see jim crow in floridia and texas)

doesnt it bother you that blacks and latinos are unfairly treated in the criminal injustice system
In austin there have been two racially motivated killings by police officers in the last year

or when we are beaten and left to die like matt shepard simplyf for the people we love or chained up to a pickup truck like james byrd i say its a pretty big problem

[redqueen]

94. I agree it's a big problem

But when this is used to distract people from the issues which keep them disempowered, then I think it's counterproductive to get swept away in the 'cause'.

Sure, if we're going to talk about the flaws in the justice system, let's have that be an issue. But if it's going to be all about how white cops are abusive towards nonwhite victims, then I'm out. I happen to know that this is not all of the story. There are cases where nonwhite cops are abusive towards both white and nonwhite victims. If these cases are not going to be discussed in that same conversation, I want no part of it -- that conversation only serves to further the divide.

Similarly the issues you raise are all about dividing and conquering. You talk about Byrd and Shepard, and yes I agree those are huge problems. However I choose to advocate against violence FIRST (against children, against women, against PEOPLE, not just colors or sexualities). If someone else wants to pick out certain groups that get more advocacy, that's fine, they can do that. I won't be there, though.

[corporatewhore]

81. You just cant write of racial issues racism is here and real

i can understand where you are coming from but you have to understand where i am coming from iwill recieve less than you for doing the same fucking job and there was a study recently that showed people are morelikely to hire some one with a white sounding name like john rather than some one with the same resume with a name like juan

[worldgonekrazy]

138. Finally, someone who understands

I salute you cryofan. Too many people give these knee jerk responses that are not reasoned and thought out. If they were to spend time trying to see it from Dean's perspective they would find that he is RIGHT (and I mean that as in "correct").

[batman]

25. This quote was made when a court case threatened affirmative action

charging that it was a form of reverse discrimination. Dean and others wanted to find a way to save it.

Here is is stand on affirmative action. He supports it. Though, that's not nearly as interesting as your headline.

http://africanamericansfordean.com/issues/affirm_actn1.htm

[Fleshdancer]

28. Dean's ENTIRE statement regarding Affirmative Action:

I strongly support well-tailored affirmative action programs. All Americans deserve an equal opportunity to succeed, and these policies help the nation move toward that ideal. They also help strengthen our economy and society. American history is characterized by too much discrimination, intolerance and inequality. But there is also a long tradition of Americans helping each other to overcome adversity and build a better nation, and affirmative action is firmly in that tradition.

Great strides have been made in achieving equality, but we still have a long way to go before we can hope to be the nation Dr. Martin Luther King dreamt of, a nation in which children are judged “not by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.” Despite the passage of landmark civil rights laws, discrimination remains a stubborn feature of American life. Laws mandating school segregation are gone, but segregation and discrimination continue in practice. Studies show that African-American job applicants are consistently less likely to be hired than less qualified whites. Civil rights remains the unfinished business of America.

Last term, the United States Supreme Court upheld the affirmative action program at the University of Michigan Law School, and in doing so affirmed the basic principle that race can properly be considered by universities to overcome past discrimination and achieve diversity. I was delighted that the Supreme Court upheld the principle of affirmative action in education. This was a victory for the civil rights of all Americans. The Bush Administration had urged the Court to reverse course in the nation’s historic march to equality, but the Court’s majority wisely refused to do so. Instead, the Court wisely heeded the advice not only of civil rights advocates but also of numerous business leaders, military leaders, and students themselves, all of whom argued that America’s future depends on drawing strength from all segments of our society.

As President, I would pursue policies that encourage racial diversity on campuses because I know that diversity serves important goals -- it produces benefits for all students, and for society as a whole. The Supreme Court decision clears the way for policies that advance both equity and excellence. I also support fair and effective affirmative action in employment, and in programs that aid small disadvantaged businesses, both to remedy discrimination and to build greater diversity and opportunity in all sectors of our society.

When President Bush used the inflammatory word “quota” to describe the Michigan program, I criticized him for distorting the facts. In fact, the Supreme Court rejected that misleading label. It is time for the President to stop using code words that divide Americans by race. With the ink barely dry on the Court’s recent decision, opponents of affirmative action threatened to make the dismantling of these efforts a litmus test for future Supreme Court nominations. As President, I will instead appoint judges who display a commitment to equal rights, and who recognize that affirmative action is a constitutional means to further that goal.

Our nation’s racial and ethnic diversity contributes to its strength. Affirmative action honors that diversity and makes America stronger.

[beaconess]

30. Nice words

As President, Dean would "pursue policies that encourage racial diversity." Sounds good.

So, what policies did Dean pursue as governor to achieve this goal?

[in_cog_ni_to]

34. Actions speak louder than words. n/t

[Fleshdancer]

36. the same could be said for Clark's domestic policy experience

eom

[sangh0]

41. What a poor defense of Dean

Attacking Clark does nothing to make Dean's deplorable lack of a record on civil rights issues more palatable.

And Clark does have a record on AA (in the military), it's an excellent record, and on this domestic issue Dean is AWOL.

[TLM]

102. And context speaks louder than cherry picked quotes...

Dean was not saying what those attacking him want to claim he was saying.

Then when the whole statement is presented... you have to quickly try and change the subject since the obvious misrepresentations are too much to defend.

[Fleshdancer]

42. Howard Dean on Civil Rights

http://www.issues2000.org/2004/Howard_Dean_Civil_Rights.htm

Affirmative action counters built-in hiring biases:

We need affirmative action in this country. There is a built-in bias of people who do hiring, that they automatically assume people who look like them are more qualified than people that don't look like them. That's why you need affirmative action. That's why the president essentially played the race card when he used the word quota to describe the University of Michigan affirmative action program. And for that reason alone, he deserves a one-way bus ticket back to Crawford, Texas.
Source: Congressional Black Caucus Institute debate Sep 9, 2003

Profiling doesn't work:

It's important not to use profiling. Profiling doesn't work. There's been a lot of studies about it. It doesn't work in Hispanic communities. It doesn't work in African-American communities. And it doesn't work against the Arab-Americans either. I am tired of being divided by race. I'm tired of being divided by gender. I'm tired of being divided by sexual orientation, by income and by religion. I want a country that's based on a community again.
Source: Democratic Primary Debate, Albuquerque New Mexico Sep 4, 2003

Support principles embodied in the Equal Rights Amendment
Dean adopted the National Governors Association policy:

In 1976 the National Governors Association expressed support for ratification and implementation of the Equal Rights Amendment, which would constitutionally guarantee full citizenship rights and opportunities for women. In 1982 the drive for ratification fell short, and efforts to initiate the amendatory process were taken.

The National Governors Association reaffirms its support for the principles embodied in the Equal Rights Amendment, i.e., that equality of rights under the law shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or any state on the basis of gender.

Source: NGA Executive Committee Policy EC-14: Equal Rights Policy 01-NGA1 on Feb 15, 2001

[indigo32]

40. No he is not

he has clearly changed his position on this since 1995

[sangh0]

45. Can you show me where he acknowledges his change of opinion

All I've seen so far is where Dean denies ever wanting to replace race with class in AA.

[in_cog_ni_to]

47. It's in his sealed records in Vermont.

he'll let the real truth out should he, by some miracle, win.

[TLM]

103. No he has not, because his position wasn't what they claim...

Dean;s position is the same... he supports AA, and always has. He supports race as a factor in AA programs. AND Dean wants to use AA programs as the model for new programs that work like AA but focus on class disadvantages instead of race.

Dean was talking about a new set of programs that are like AA programs based on race, but that focus on class. He NEVER said anything about taking race out of existing AA programs or changing existing AA programs at all.

[Clark Can WIN]

184. really?

"he has clearly changed his position on this since 1995"

Since when are Deans changes of position ever clear?

[Capn Sunshine]

46. Bucking for another quote on the Limbaugh show

I'm sure we can expect many more posts like this as pro Clark posters seek to enhance their fame and status among the Dittohead audience.

After all, it's the only thing that really matters to them.

[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[shivaji]

48. As a minority person, I am against quota based affirmative action....

and here are my reasons:

I want to be known for having succeeded on my own merits and not because of some tokenism.

Even MLK is well known for saying "Let a person not be judged by the skin of his color but by the strength of his/her character"

I strongly feel that the minorities are fully capable of succeeding on their own talents and hard work if given equal opportunities.

All we really need is strict laws against racial based discrimination in public life. But please forget quotas. It is very
degrading to my personal pride.

[beaconess]

52. Quotas are illegal and are not a valid basis for affirmative action

[corporatewhore]

60. Aff.Action is not for quotas but for diversity

take alook at this article i know exactly where you are coming from iused to be against aff. action myself for the same reason
http://www.wiretapmag.org/story.html?StoryID=16085

[markus]

73. This is *exactly* where our party should be

Switching from race-based to income-based affirmative action would break the south wide open again.

It would be remembered in the same breath, and thought better of, than Nixon's "southern strategy".

Howard, the magic formula was the statement in '95!


:kick:

[corporatewhore]

75. who needs diversity any way

90. I agree

it would undo the damage done in the reconstruction when they split "white trash" away from the freed slaves

[corporatewhore]

93. wouldnt you appreciate more diversity in schools

A common misconception that many people have about affirmative action is that it lowers the standards for Black, Latino, and Native American students in the college application process. The petitioners/plaintiffs in the case against the University of Michigan claim that affirmative action lowers admissions standards for minority applicants, which creates hostilities between White and minority students. However, the data sheet on the University of Michigan's undergraduate program website cites that White students who were admitted to the University of Michigan had an average GPA lower than that of Black students. Also, over the past ten years, the acceptance rate for Caucasian/White students -- meaning the percentage of applicants from a particular ethnic group that are accepted -- at the UM Law School was still higher than the acceptance rate for Black or Latino students, and was second only to the rate of acceptance for Native American students (who still only make up 2 percent of the student population). It's important to step back from the argument to recognize that even with affirmative action policies in place, the University of Michigan is still more than 70 percent White.
in 1996, California voters approved Proposition 209, a ballot initiative which said that race could not be considered as a factor for hiring or admissions in any state institution. After the University of California system enacted the ban against affirmative action, schools like UC Berkeley found that the admittance rates of underrepresented minority students dropped by a staggering 14 percent in 1997. The freshman class at UCLA this year has only 281 Blacks out of 10,507 incoming students. The decreasing number of minority students detracts from the learning process for all students because it limits the range of perspectives present in class discussions.

When White, Black, Asian, Latino, Arab, and other students are brought together in a classroom, they can better understand their differences and destroy racist stereotypes that have been so ingrained in our nation's mentality. I met a professor at UCLA who told me affirmative action programs have actually decreased racial hostilities between different groups because of this classroom learning process. When students learn in a more tolerant and diverse environment, everyone benefits from the experience.
http://www.wiretapmag.org/story.html?StoryID=16085

95. Yes I would

Do these things have to be mutually exclusive?
My view is that race is a subset of class difference. In Western history skin color has been an easily definable way of perpetuating class differences. Race inequality and lack of diversity certainly should be addressed. All I am suggesting is that the larger issue that also needs addressing is the increasing split between the upper and lower class. We also need a diversity that brings people together on an equal basis who are divided in terms of income. If in some ideal future our schools were incredibly racially diverse and opportunities were equal regardless of skin color, if other more subtle and invisible distinctions between the classes were not ameliorated, there would still be work to be done.
The question is what order things should be worked on , I suppose. To bring it back to Dean's statement, I don't get what is wrong with speaking about class discrimination & I don't see anything racist about it. Am I missing something?

[markus]

96. But CW, this would do nothing to undermine diversity

Under any income (class) based system, African-Americans, Natives and Hispanics would continue to benefit. We would simply change the criteria. As long as these groups and others continue to have much lower income and much higher poverty statistics, the net effect wouldn't change.

What would change is a sense of solidarity among working people of all races, and an end to the greatest point of political racial division in our country.

[TLM]

83. But he doesn't mention his opposition to REAL affirmative action. Why not

Because he's not opposed to AA.

No matter how many times desperate folks try to spin that statement, it won't change what Dean was talking about.

Dean said nothing about getting rid or or changing AA programs. What he said was about establishing NEW programs based on class that are modeled on existing AA programs that are based on race.


Do you understand the difference between changing or replacing existing AA programs, and using existing AA programs as a model for building additional programs that address areas that current AA does not?

Are you really confused about the meaning of the statement, or are you intentionally distorting it in order to attack Dean?

[sangh0]

107. I think we ought to look at affirmative action programs based, not on race

"not on race"

Easy to understand, right?

[TLM]

111. What part of new programs don't you comprehend?

I'll be happy to explain the idea of a new program vs. and existing program if you're having trouble.

Please tell me what part is the part you do not understand about the idea of using an AA program based on race as a model for a new programs that would address class disadvantages?


Why is it you think that means getting rid of existing programs or changing existing programs? Do you think that there are somehow a finite number of programs permitted and that new class based programs would mean existing race based programs would have to be eliminated?

I'm not sure where the source of the confusion is and why you're having such a hard time understanding such a simple idea.

[sangh0]

113. The part where Dean never said anything about new programs

and for all you repeated claims that he was talking about "new programs" in 1995, you still haven't provided a quote from 1995 where Dean says he wants "new programs"

[TLM]

120. Funny the double standard....

you've not needed any quote where dean said Eliminate race from existing AA programs" to claim that is exactly what he said.

Yet when I point out he's talking about new programs to address class, you claim I need a quote saying "new programs."

Aside from the fact he's talking about programs that address class, which do not exist and thus would by definition need to be new programs... he also made additional comments in that CNN interview in 95 that make it clear he is talking about new programs to help poor folks regardless of race, and he also said so recently making this even more clear.

I think Jesse Jackson Jr. also reiterated this point as well.


But obviously you must have the CNN transcript as you've so surely commented on what's NOT there. So please post that transcript and we can see on what info you based your so well informed conclusion.

[sangh0]

125. You still haven't provided a quote from 1995

you still haven't provided a quote from 1995 where Dean says he wants "new programs". But obviously you must have the CNN transcript as you've so surely commented on what IS there. So please post that transcript and we can see on what info you based your so well informed conclusion.

[TLM]

132. I've not claimed to have the transcript...

what I do have is the exchange over this question, and it shows what Dean is talking about are new programs and THOSE are what he says should not be based on race.


I just want to really rub in the fact you are making comments about a what is or is not in a transcript you don't even have.

[sangh0]

141. You said Dean was talking about "new programs"

How would you know that if you don't have the transcript?

You can read where Dean said "but I don't think it ought to be done by race" at:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=105154&mesg_id=107150

You said Dean was talking about "new programs". Please post a quote of Dean's from 1995 where he says he is talking about "new programs"

[TLM]

172. Because I have the same section of the transcript that was posted...

and it shows Dean is talking about doing something like AA to help poor folks, and it is that which should not be based on race, but class.

Dean did not say we should change AA or remove race from AA... he used AA as an example of a program to help a group of people. Only Dean was talking about doing something like AA, but that addressed disadvantages based on class and not race.

That would be, by definition, a new program.

[sangh0]

188. You've got nothing

which is why you haven't posted any cites.

The question was about AA which is NOT a poverty program. Too bad Dean (and apparently some of his supporters) doesn't understand that discrimination is a problem distinct from poverty.

[the populist]

133. What's wrong with affirmative action based on class?

I agree that for positions, like jobs, were the person in charge knows the race of the applicant there should be race-based affirmative action. But for college applications, you don't have to mark your race. So how is a black person whose family makes only $25,000 a year any more at a disadvantage than a white person in the same financial situation. Poor white people are the forgotten minority, and I applaud Dean for standing up for them.

[sangh0]

146. Here's what's wrong

AA is not a poverty program. AA is meant to address the problems caused by discrimination and racial discrimination has no income tests. Even rich people can be discriminated against because of their race.

153. I'm curious

Could you give an example,that would be fixed by affirmative action as it currently exists, of a rich person being discriminated against?
I'm sure rich people who are black or another minority are discriminated against by being profiled by police or refused service in restaurants or by real-estate zoning practices, but where are they discriminated against in a way that affirmative action addresses?
Be specific please.

[sangh0]

154. OK

Count the CEO's of Fortune 500 corps and group them by race. See if blacks are represented proportionally.

Count the number of managers in Fortune 500 corps and group them by gender. See if women are represented proportionally.

If, after reading those two examples, you don't see how AA can help in these situations, or how the people (blacks, women) can be both rich and discriminated against, then ask and I'll explain.

158. of course of course, but my understanding was

that affirmative action only applied to cases where the federal government could withhold funds, e.g. in the case of education.
I thought that most Fortune 500 companies were exempt from the requirements of affirmative action because of being private corporations. Maybe this is a misunderstanding on my part. Of course I realize that the type of discrimination you refer to exists (wasn't I referencing examples myself before); I'm just not sure that affirmative action has an impact on those type of examples. I'm going to do some google searching to see how I got this impression.

162. continued

I'm answering myself --
from this site -- which is just a start
http://www.fredlaw.com/articles/employment/empl_95fa_mmk_1.html

"Despite the news and debate emanating from the White House, Congress, and even the federal courts regarding the continued vitality of affirmative action requirements, the short answer to this headline question is "Yes." All federal and state affirmative action requirements continue to apply and must be met by those companies to which they apply until such rules, regulations, or requirements have been rescinded by a court of competent jurisdiction.

Federal Requirements

On the federal level, the most well-known affirmative action requirement applies to all companies with 50 or more employees holding federal government contracts of $50,000 or more. These companies must develop and maintain written affirmative action plans that are updated annually.

State Requirements (Minnesota)

On the state level, all companies with 21 or more employees holding state government contracts of $50,000 or more must develop a written affirmative action plan and have that plan certified by the Minnesota Department of Human Rights every other year. On both the federal and state level, the affirmative action plans, among other requirements, must set forth the company's minority and female employment goals, based on availability within the applicable labor market. Much of the recent debate regarding affirmative action, both in the courts and elsewhere, centers on the long- heard criticism that the requirement of "employment goals" is really a euphemism for "employment quotas," and therefore promotes reverse discrimination."


The way I'm reading this, is it applies to companies with government contracts, not to any other examples. So maybe, we're both right in some sense on this one.


(edited to put the quotes around the citation)

[sangh0]

165. response

Yes, we're both kind of right. AA is not "required" per se. However, certain entities (ex Fed govt, State govts, private groups) will not do business with anyone who does not have an AA program. IOW, it's not a "legal requirement", but for some practical purposes (like doing business with the Fed govt) it is a "practical requirement"

[sangh0]

163. a few points

AA means different things to different people. There is an Executive Order that requires corps doing business with the Fed govt to have an AA program. In addition, many corps have AA programs even though they do not contract with the Fed govt (or any other govt). Basically, NO ONE is REQUIRED to have an AA program. However, certain people and groups may require an AA program before they will do business with you. That doesn't make AA a requirement.

In the cases I mentioned, AA would most definitely have an impact. For one, an AA program would reveal the disparity. Identifying the problem is the first step in fixing the problem.

An AA program would also increase the number of qualified applicants from the unrepresented group and once they applied, it would increase their chance of getting the job and/or promotion.

[spooky3]

182. A few clarifications

1) The biggest one--all corps in interstate commerce & > 15 employees must follow equal employment opportunity law (e.g., The Civil Rights Act of 1964, Title VII). They cannot discriminate unfairly. So those who have kept women and minorities from high level positions due to failure to prevent unfair discrimination, including simply ignoring qualified women and minorities, would be breaking this law. They may not have to have an AA plan.

2) Many of these large corps. have a government contract or accept federal funds > $50K in some division. This makes AA mandatory.

3) A company like Denny's can be ordered by the court to adopt an AA plan to remedy discrimination. AA would be mandatory for such companies.

4) Many companies have examined their utilization and proactively have adopted voluntary AA in order to correct under-utilization. Had they not done this, they might have later been required to do so.

[sangh0]

189. A clarification of my own

3) A company like Denny's can be ordered by the court to adopt an AA plan to remedy discrimination. AA would be mandatory for such companies

Court ordered AA plans can only be adopted if the company has been found guilty of discrimination.

And thanks for posting that. They're all good points

[beaconess]

164. Oh, where to start . . .

Here's one:

"Bob Nash and his wife, Janis Kearney, were returning home from an evening out when the blare of sirens and the glare of flashing lights forced their truck to stop on a busy street on the outskirts of the nation's capital. Shortly before police stopped them, a 1998 black Infiniti sports utility vehicle was carjacked at gunpoint in Montgomery County, Md., by a man described as a "light complected, very short" black male. Nash, an African-American of medium height with a chocolate brown complexion, was driving a 1997 blue Infiniti SUV. A squad of cops — some brandishing shotguns, others with drawn pistols — ordered Nash and Kearney out . Forced to walk backward toward the officers with their hands behind their head, they feared that the slightest stumble might set off a barrage of gunfire

"Nash and Kearney are both senior aides to the president of the United States. He is the director of the White House office of presidential personnel; she is Bill Clinton's personal historian."

http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/columnists/wickham/wick141.htm

Or, here are some examples, told by a black federal judge on Nightline back in 1996:

"A colleague of mine, an African-American, Judge Damon Keith, was chairing this nation's bicentennial celebration in 1987. He was hosting and was chair of a conference at Williamsburg for some 200 or 300 federal judges. One evening he was standing in front of the Williamsburg Inn, preparing to go to dinner, surrounded by half a dozen (white) colleagues . . . A woman pulled up with a car. She got out and walked over to Judge Keith and asked him to park her car.

"Now, that was some years ago. Last week, I was in New Orleans, speaking to a conference of federal court administrators, standing in the lobby of a hotel, dressed to the nines, as they say. A man rushes through the door and comes over to me and says, 'I need- I need a car for room 238.' And I was- I froze, and I looked at him. He said, 'I need my car for room 238.' I said, 'I'm sorry, sir, I don't- I don't work here.' And then it hit and this light came on. He followed me all around the lobby, apologizing. I told some friends about that, and they asked me was I furious. I said, 'No, I wasn't furious,' I said, 'I felt sorry for him.' Because what that reflected, he knew as soon as I- I responded, he realized that he had fallen into the trap. Here's a person who was acting on stereotypes. He had been conditioned to associate blacks with service in hotels."

Nightline, May 23, 1996

I'd be happy to provide more examples, if you like, but I'm sure you get the gist.

168. Response to beaconess and sangh0

I also went into this site

http://www.now.org/issues/affirm/

http://www.now.org/issues/affirm/talking.html


Ok, like you say sangh0, affirmative action means different things to different people. I was thinking of it purely in the sense of its impact on educational admissions. Title IX issues. I did not realize that the equal opportunity clauses that everybody sees in their workplace are considered affirmative action. Guess I thought they were applications of the constitution pure and simple.


Beaconess, I agree that examples such as "A woman pulled up with a car. She got out and walked over to Judge Keith and asked him to park her car." that you give are disgusting, I just don't see how affirmative action is going to do anything about them except perhaps through the gradual cultural change in awareness.


To continue this discussion, I really am curious about how you would respond to the issue I raised in post 23 here. Although, as I've been reading switching to class instead of race can be a code to try to perpetuate racism, can't it also be a held philosophical position that strives to abolish ALL forms of discrimination?

[TLM]

173. See the gag here is in the switch... Dean said nothing about a switch

or a change to AA... what he said was we should look at programs like AA, but that address class instead of race.

IOW new progreams modeled after AA to adress class disadvantages the way AA addresses race disadvantages.

174. I agree with Dean's position

and with what you've been saying throughout. Addition, not switch.
My position as you might have read earlier is that race is a subset of class, skin color has been a convenient way of codifying class distinctions.

& of course the overarching question in the campaign would be, is Dean a racist? NO. Is Bush ? Maybe

of course we all have some level of unconscious racism I think.

[spooky3]

183. 56kid, Title IX is the part of the Civil Rights Act of 1964

concerned with education. Title VII is the part that bans discrimination at the workplace. You are right that the Constitution prohibits some of the types of discrimination that concern you.

Other sections of the CRA (and other federal laws) forbid discrimination in public accommodations. It is illegal for example to refuse to sell a car to a black man for the same price you would offer to a white man, though it happens.

There are also local laws.

Not a lawyer but work in a related area.

[sangh0]

190. 56kid, about beaconess' example

You are right. AA will not help those who have been subjected to racial profiling. However, AA is not meant to do that. AA does NOT prevent or prohibit discrimination. That is the job of the Constitution, Civil Rights Act, The Americans with Disabilities Act, and the various other pieces of civil rights legislation that has passed.

AA is meant to help remedy the harm done (in AA-speak, it's know as "social and/or economic disadvantage") by several SPECIFIC forms of discrimination. It's remedial, not prophylactic.

[beaconess]

193. Affirmative Action DOES help to address these problems

One of the primary purposes of affirmative action is to increase diversity, not for diversity's sake, but to expose people to others not like them. The benefit of this is that it helps strike down stereotypes that lead to discrimination.

[sangh0]

194. You do have a point

Maybe we should qualify the statement by distinguishing between AA's direct and indirect effects.

[the populist]

179. But in college applications

how can blacks be discriminated against if the college doesn't know the race of the applicant? Colleges, as a result of this type of affirmative action, accept upper middle-class blacks and blacks who attend private schools because of this type affirmative action while working class people, both black and white, are largely left out in the cold. Is that fair?

[corporatewhore]

200. there was a studty that showed its better to apply w/white sounding name

for jobs any way for example john and juan have roughly same resume john will mostlikely get it

[beaconess]

202. Not to mention the fact that many students are personally interviewed

by admissions committees.

[bitchkitty]

161. Hey, I've heard that before!

B-)

[Bush loves Jiang]

196. I prefer this approach...

There are rich minorities and poor Whites (although generally, the very rich are White).

What's wrong with favouring people with financial need?

[beaconess]

197. There are already programs that do just that

but those programs to not address the continuing problems of racial discrimination and lack of diversity. That's what race-based affirmative action does and it should not be confused with or replaced by income based programs.

[TrueAmerican]

198. Shame on Howard Dean

shame!

[sangh0]

199. Dean has no shame

That's why he lies all the time

[corporatewhore]

201. i can see a need for class based but it needs to be in addition to race

based affirmative action