1 in every 200 people in Vermont is African American

[batman]

The hispanic population is not much greater.

Just serving up a bit of "perspective" on the Faux news/Al Sharpton 15 minutes of fame debacle.

What a pity that instead of discussing the allegations by Paul O'Neil made just last night. (Bush planned the war in advance.) The media and DU-ers are lapping up the distraction.

[w4rma]

1. Yup. For reference, the ethic makeup of Vermont (Census 2000)

One race: 98.8%
White: 96.8%
Black or African American: 0.5%
American Indian and Alaska Native: 0.4%
Asian: 0.9%
Asian Indian: 0.1%
Chinese: 0.2%
Filipino: 0.1%
Japanese: 0.1%
Korean: 0.1%
Vietnamese: 0.2%
Other Asian: 0.1%
Native Hawaiian and Other Pacific Islander: <0.1%
Native Hawaiian: <0.1%
Guamanian or Chamorro: <0.1%
Samoan: <0.1%
Other Pacific Islander: <0.1%
Some other race: 0.2%
Two or more races: 1.2%
http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/QTTable?ds_name=DEC_2000_SF1_U&geo_id=04000US50&qr_name=DEC_2000_SF1_U_DP1

[_Jumper_]

5. Not ONE of them had the intelligence to do the job according to some

Black or African American
4,492
0.7

American Indian and Alaska Native
6,396
1.1


Native Hawaiian and Other Pacific Islander
308
0.1

Some other race
2,727
0.4





HISPANIC OR LATINO AND RACE



Total population
608,827
100.0

Hispanic or Latino (of any race)
5,504
0.9

Mexican
1,174
0.2

Puerto Rican
1,374
0.2

Cuban
310
0.1

Other Hispanic or Latino
2,646
0.4

[_Jumper_]

2. So you're saying not ONE of them was qualified to be a cabinet member?

?

[batman]

7. im saying this topic is bullshit.

that's what im saying. you tell me how many qualified interested blacks were turned down for cabinet positions, then we've got a story.

aren't you disgusted that this is a bigger news story then bush's planning the war prior to 911? i am.

[shivaji]

14. Are you saying Dean should have appointed a black simply

for the sake of diversity? What if the whites were more qualified, more experienced and more competent than available from the 49 TIMES smaller pool of available black candidates?

Now if Dean was a governor from Illinois or Michigan where large black populations exist, you have a right to question his racial policies.

ps: I belong to a minority race myself.

[beaconess]

27. Um - yeah

That's what diversity is - it requires DIVERSITY (meaning, not all white people).

Even Dean recognizes this. Or at least he claims to: "As President, I would pursue policies that encourage racial diversity . . . because I know that diversity serves important goals -- it produces benefits for all students, and for society as a whole."

I don't buy the argument that the only way to ensure diversity is to hire unqualified minorities. That's bull. Anyone with half a brain and a minimum of effort can find qualified minorities if they want to. Funny, no one is questioning whether any of the numerous white people that Dean appointed was the most qualified for the position they held. I guess the presumption of incompetence only applies to black and brown people while everyone knows that every white person in every job is THE most qualified person for the position, eh?

[_Jumper_]

36. How many people are qualified for cabinet posts?

There are many people that are qualified for cabinet posts. Do you believe that not a single black or Latino was? If so, why do you feel that way?

He should have appointed a black or Latino person if he truly believe in diversity--like he claims he does. There is a theory that asserts that diversity in employment is a good thing. Those that truly subscribe to it hire diverse workforces, those that don't do not...

[Clark Can WIN]

53. Out of the 22,000 + minorities in his own state

Or from the millions anywhere else in the country, YES.

ps we are a minority household too.

[Ramsey]

18. The point is...

That there were hardly any blacks or Hispanics to chose from. Do you know how many of them work in politics or government in Vermont? Do you know if any applied for government jobs and were turned away? Do you think any governor (not just Dean) should dig up people of color and force them to come in and apply for jobs just to give an appearance of diversity? Does a governor have to have blacks and Hispanics on his Cabinet to support civil rights and affirmative action?

I don't think phony diversity is the purpose of affirmative action. It is to give people of color equal opportunity for education and employment for careers that they seek out.

Vermont is clearly not a very diverse state. Dean has often talked about how most of his cabinet and staff were women. He has also talked about his strong support for affirmative action since very very early in his campaign.

It's likely he had few minority people to chose from. Let's remember too that the Vermont governor's CABINET (the body Al Sharpton was specifically railing on about) includes only six people. Dean stated that there were minorities on his staff, but that wasn't good enough for Sharpton. And note that Carol Mosely-Brain took Sharpton to task for using the racial card.

[_Jumper_]

34. Diversity

If someone believes in diversity they would practice it in their hiring practices. How can he tell employers to diversify their workforces when he failed to do so?

There were thousands of blacks and Hispanics in Vermont. Do you believe that none of them were highly educated, successful professionals? Those are the people that cabinet posts. There are many people that are more or less equally qualified for them. A governor or president can pick and chose among a relatively large pool. Those that want diversity can achieve it.

If Dean does not believe in diversity he should be honest about it.

[KissMyAsscroft]

3. How many people you have appointed to your cabinet

does not mean anything.

By that logic, Bush appointing Colin Powell and Condi Rice makes him a leader who embracing impproving race relations, and we all know that is complete bullshit.

Sharpton is desperate, and has no shot at the nomination so he is swinging wildly.

Pointless, and I am ignoring it.

[bigtree]

23. 5 terms, no black cabinet members

I'm amazed. I'm just stunned. I'm even more floored by the apologists. What will you say when Gov. Dean eventually does a complete mea culpa on this? Will you repudiate him?

[BeyondGeography]

4. So we're talking about a potential nominee

from a fringe state that's out of touch with mainstream America, leading to exactly the type of vulnerabilities that Sharpton exposed last night.

Or did I miss something?

[KoKo]

6. Dean didn't grow up in Vermont. And, why does where he grew up mean

that he wouldn't understand the problems of non-white folks? After all do you think the Chimp is better? Wes Clark? Gephardt, Kerry or even Edwards?

How can you guarentee that Dean has "fringe, whitey values" because he was Governor of Vermont even though he's been around long enough to have had contact with people from every walk of life.

I thought we wanted a Candidate who expressed Democratic values, not one that has to pass a test over how many folks of ethnic backgrounds he put in his cabinet.

[Snivi Yllom]

8. Dean is in the mainstream

Dean at least managed to register for a political party before the last few years

[batman]

9. you missed something.

:hi:

[BeyondGeography]

10. Oh, really?

The simple fact is if the nominee is Dean, we're running a Governor who never appointed a minority to his cabinet in 12 years. Of course that doesn't prove he's a racist, but it's not helpful either.

Look, Dean supporters, your candidate has made several stumbles in the area of race, which is what happens when you live and work in a state that's 97% white. The good intentions are there, but the instincts aren't always so sharp. There was the Confederate flag flap, his assertion that affirmative action is a class- rather than race-based issue, his suggestion last night that Latinos might join the military as a means to secure citizenship rather than out of pure patriotism, and, of course, his own record.

The fact remains that nominating someone who has spent his whole adult life in Vermont brings with it some liabilities. News flash: Dean is not all upside and positive.

Of course, we do lock up those 3 electoral votes.

[The_Counsel]

15. Oh Boy...

"The simple fact is if the nominee is Dean, we're running a Governor who never appointed a minority to his cabinet in 12 years. Of course that doesn't prove he's a racist, but it's not helpful either."

It seems to me that we ran a guy in '92 with similar credentials.

His name was... I believe... Clinton.

He won.

Twice.

This is a non-issue.

[BeyondGeography]

21. Don't compare Clinton's instincts on race

with Dean's. It's laughable.

[The_Counsel]

29. Why?

How so? Remind me: what was the name of that high-level Black official in Clinton's cabinet when he was governor of Arkansas...? I can't seem to remmeber...

My point is he didn't really begin appointing Blacks in high positions until he became President. Even then, he seemed more sincere about appointing the right people for the job than what color their skin was. It was just as well: it would only have been just one more thing for the Republicans to bash him about...

This is a non-issue.

[sangh0]

22. Not true

Clinton appointed blacks to his cabinet when he was a Governor of a small state. Like Dean, you're not paying enough attention to the facts.

[The_Counsel]

31. Fine...

"Clinton appointed blacks to his cabinet when he was a Governor of a small state."

Name them. Who were these HIGH- or SENIOR-LEVEL Blacks in his Arkansas cabinet? I'm not talking about Betty Currie, who was basically his secretary, but SENIOR-LEVEL officials. Just holding him to the same standard to which Sharpton held Dean....

[sangh0]

43. Dr Elders

Next question

[The_Counsel]

49. Jocelyn Elders, I Presume?

Ah, yes. Dr. Jocelyn Elders was appointed by Bill Clinton to be director of the Arkansas Department of Public Health in 1987. No doubt, this position kept her in the Big Dog's consciousness until 1993, when he began looking for someone to fill the U.S. Surgeon General slot.

Okay, so there's a start.

Now, here's a question: Had Clinton not appointed her to the AR Health Department, would he have been seriously lacking on the civil rights / Affirmative Action front? Or would he have been just another in a long line of governors who hadn't gotten around to hiring Blacks to the cabinet level?

Still another question: How is it that Howard Dean is, somehow, a racist because he couldn't find candidates out of approximately 3,100 Blacks who happen to live in Vermont? Bear in mind the following: there are only six cabinet positions to fill and it was quite possible that not a whole lot of Blacks even APPLIED for those jobs, if at all. Contrary to popular opinion, the governor isn't going to pull names out of a hat and hire folks sight unseen.

All I'm saying is this is a red-herring non-issue raised be Sharpton to gain attention. Well, he's got it. But at what cost...?

[beaconess]

28. Excuse me?

Bill Clinton, as governor, appointed a number of minorities to cabinet positions in Arkansas.

What are you talking about?

[The_Counsel]

33. Name Them.

Since we know so much about them, we can surely name them and end this "debate," no?

Or can we (finally) agree that this is a non-issue...?

[sangh0]

47. See post #43

.

[The_Counsel]

50. Saw It, And Responded.

n/t

[Larkspur]

37. Rep Jess Jackson Jr, the chairmaon of the CBC, and many

other African Americans who endorsed Dean and knew about Vermont's minority population have fully backed Dean's campaign. Those endorsements say a great deal about Dean's character and his vision for diversity in this nation.

[bigtree]

45. like Al said:

"You only need a co-signer if your credit's no good"

[AP]

11. It's funny that the producers of Star Trek did a better

job of hiring minorities in the early 70s than Dean did from 90 to 2002.

Boldly going where no man has gone before...

[w4rma]

12. The producers of Star Trek had the whole country to choose from.

And were trying to be representative of the "universe". :P

[shivaji]

16. Comparing Startrek with Vermont is like comparing oranges with apples

One was a national show, the other a small state with 98% white pop.
I guess you Clark supporters seem desparate to throw any illogical crap around hoping something will stick.

[bigtree]

25. Poor Gov.Dean

Couldn't find one African-American in Vermont to work in his cabinet.

Did he say that he tried to find blacks to fill those positions, or that it was unimportant because of the racial makeup of his state?

Or, do you assert that it is unimportant to have minority representation in a small state's cabinet?

[AP]

51. I'm comparing decades. 70s and 90s. Not a matter of availability. It's

a matter of what you consider important.

[The_Counsel]

13. -- sigh. --

Are we DONE bashing Dean for bashing's sake? I swear, if Dean drops out of the race today, he'd take at least four other candidates with him, as they then wouldn't have a damned thing to talk about or rail against...

Question: how many senior level Blacks does Wesley Clark have on his staff? Joe Lieberman? John Kerry? Oh, damn... this IS a non-issue, isn't it...? SHEESH...!

I guess it doesn't make a difference that there are about five Blacks in all of Vermont. I suppose there's no use pointing out that most of the senior state government posts held by Blacks in the U.S. are ELECTED. I guess it's irrelevent that George the Idiot has THREE Blacks in his cabinet, and it's done us absolutely NO good.

Al Sharpton is desperate. He never wanted to become President, but only to have a say in who does. Howard Dean was not on his radar and it's killing him. If I were a betting man, I would put down cash and bet you that Sharpton could've / would've bashed any one of five other candidates on this exact same point had they brought up race while being in the lead. That list being Lieberman, Kerry, Clark, Kucinich and Gephardt...

(Note that I have not mentioned John Edwards, as his campaign co-chair, Harvey Gantt, is Black...)

[sangh0]

24. How disingenous!

Are we DONE bashing Dean for bashing's sake?

You don't suppose that some DUers actually CARE about AA and other racial issues?

Nah! It couldn't be. It's just bashing.

BTW, Clark, Lieberman, and Kerry have EXCELLENT records on civil rights issues. If you want to do a side by side comparison of any of them vs. Dean, you let me know.

[The_Counsel]

39. If You Want 'Disengenious', See Post #24...

"You don't suppose that some DUers actually CARE about AA and other racial issues?"

Of course we do. But let's do it the RIGHT way. Hiring Blacks simply BECAUSE they're black and not necessarily due to their merit is NOT the way Affirmative Action is supposed to work...



"Nah! It couldn't be. It's just bashing."

I'm sure you ARE aware that most of the other candidates have been bashing Dean on ALL issues for a while; ever since he took the lead in most polls, in fact. Had he been pulling up the rear with a robust 1.5% polling score, we wouldn't be having this conversation, would we?

That's what I was talking about. I thought I'd made it pretty clear...


"BTW, Clark, Lieberman, and Kerry have EXCELLENT records on civil rights issues. If you want to do a side by side comparison of any of them vs. Dean, you let me know."

Okay, fine. Like I said: name the non-elected, high-level Blacks on those guys' staff, and we can have that conversation. Again, just holding them to the same standard to which Sharpton held Dean....

[AP]

52. Has Dean ever worked with a black person as a peer?

This isn't just a question about hiring unqualified or qualified people (which is an interesting way for you to frame this). It about experience, perspective, and credibility.

[bigtree]

26. Rev. Sharpton has said

that he is campaigning for delegates to take into the convention. He hopes to bring the issues of concern that he has fought for all of his life to the national arena of attention. If he does not get the nod then he intends to broker the support of his delegates to garner representation of his issues by the chosen nominee in the general election. This is what Democracy looks like.

[The_Counsel]

41. Rev. Sharpton

"Rev. Sharpton has said that he is campaigning for delegates to take into the convention. He hopes to bring the issues of concern that he has fought for all of his life to the national arena of attention. If he does not get the nod then he intends to broker the support of his delegates to garner representation of his issues by the chosen nominee in the general election. This is what Democracy looks like."

Okay, so in other words, he's doing exactly what Jesse Jackson ended up doing in '88. How noble of him.



But, there's one thing I just don't understand...



If Sharpton is only in this to bring issues of concern to the national arena, why would he focus on ONE other candidate and bash him to death? That doesn't seem to be the best way to get your issues heard, does it? I mean, NO other candidate draws Sharpton's wrath more than Dean. Not even George W. Bush, who SHOULD be drawing it...

And hell, what if Dean DOES win the nomination? Don't you think he'd be well within his rights to completely ignore Sharpton for being such a piece of shit, trouble-making, pain in the ass? I'm just sayin'...

[bigtree]

44. Dean is the presumed front-runner

To many of the other candidates and their supporters. Gov. Dean's predominance in the polls and his money gathering success are based on false impressions of his commitment and experience in many of the areas that he touts and positions. Like his claim of opposition to giving Bush authority on the war, like his respect for caucuses, like his call to move beyond race. He can rightfully be challenged on these assertions. A balanced representation of the candidates, their positions, and their experience by the national media would level the field. Gov. Dean is benefiting from a media coronation and his bubble appears to be leaking as more of his actual record is presented.

Gov. doesn't have to characterize Rev. Sharpton's campaign in such negative terms if he gets the nod. If he is nominated he will need Rev. Sharpton's supporters, who presumably agree with the Rev. on these issues of race.

[The_Counsel]

46. If Dean Is The Front-Runner in Presumption Only...

...then why do all the polls put him in front? Why do the other candidates resort to acts of desperation when engaging him? About the only candidates that I see regularly taking the high road is John Edwards (even though he's attacked Dean once or twice also) and Carol Mosely Braun (who's probably jockeying for a position in a Dean cabinet anyway).

Dean is ahead in national Dem candidate polls, and in the states that truly matter at the moment: IA, NH, MI, and even SC. Had he been seriously trailing, no one would give a damn what he says or does.

This is a glorified game of "King of the Hill," folks. It's obvious.

[bigtree]

54. polls

:eyes:

[ecstatic]

17. very true. wow, I forgot all about O'Neill until this post nt

[Hep]

19. CMBkicked his ass

And that's all that has to be said about that.

[sandnsea]

20. The country has NO talent?

In the entire country, Howard couldn't find a minority with the skills necessary to serve in his cabinet? That's what Governors who truly want diversity do. They find the people that are out there. That's the way you break down the walls. That's what John Kerry did with women in the prosecutors office back in the 80's. That's how you do it, you make it a personal priority and find the qualified people to fill the jobs.

[corporatewhore]

30. totally agree he hasnt walked his walked

[w4rma]

35. State, not country. Note, there are more asians than blacks in Vermont.

One race: 98.8%
White: 96.8%
Black or African American: 0.5%
American Indian and Alaska Native: 0.4%
Asian: 0.9%
http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/QTTable?ds_name=DEC_2000_SF1_U&geo_id=04000US50&qr_name=DEC_2000_SF1_U_DP1

[DemBones DemBones]

42. And no Asians in Dean's cabinets, either. n/t

[_Jumper_]

38. Yes it does but none of the talent is black or Latino according to some...

...DU'ers. I can't believe that people here are actually arguing or insinuating that.

[NashVegas]

32. That Many?

Wow.

When I lived there, there was one black person in the entire town of about 3000. He claimed to be Haile Selassie's grandson, too. We figured he was putting us on ..

[DemBones DemBones]

40. Funny that a guy who requested black roommates at Yale

wouldn't look for any minorities to help him govern Vermont.

[styersc]

48. It seems to be a clear case of racism-

why do minorities hate Vermont so much???