Dean's real record is to the right of Lieberman on key Dem issues.

[blm]

Sorry, folks, but Dean's record shows he was for INTENSIFYING the war on drugs.

Dean's record shows a disregard for civil liberty issues, and sounds eerily like George Bush in his comments addressing them.

Say what you will about Lieberman, but his record shows he's better on civil liberties and the environment. Dean, otoh, would often bypass environmental laws for his favored corporations. And is deregulation for energy a Dem value? That's a GOP value favored by Libertarians.

http://www.talkleft.com/archives/003739.html
……He once addressed a meeting of defense attorneys by stating that "my job is to make your job as difficult as possible." He is a man of his word, at least on this campaign promise. He did not want to fund public defense.
……Dean has made no secret of his belief that the justice system gives all the breaks to defendants. Consequently, during the 1990s, state’s attorneys, police, and corrections all received budget increases vastly exceeding increases enjoyed by the defender general’s office. That meant the state’s attorneys were able to round up ever increasing numbers of criminal defendants, but the public defenders were not given comparable resources to respond.
http://rogueimc.org/2003/11/1757.shtml
Dean, in 1999, wanted to refuse a $150,000 federal grant to the public defender's office for aiding mentally disabled defendants. "That was unusual, to say the least," says Appel. The state legislature overrode Dean's opposition. Dean spokesman Carson responded that Dean didn't want to create a program that the state couldn't afford to fund if federal money disappeared in the future. But he did not disavow Dean's anti-defendant bent. "This is a governor who was tough on crime and is a big believer in victims' rights," Carson says.
(Note:The state legislature overrode Dean's opposition and forced him to take it.)
Source: http://stacks.msnbc.com/news/912159.asp?cp1=1
Dean: “I got life without parole through our legislature. The problems with life without parole is that it’s not life without parole. There are always people who get out.”
http://richmond.indymedia.org/newswire/display/4371/index.php
.. “I’m looking to make it easier to convict guilty people and not have as many technicalities interfere with justice, and I’ll appoint someone to fit that bill”.
Asked if that reflected a “get-tough-on-crime” approach, Dean responded: “I’m looking for someone who is for justice. My beef about the judicial system is that it does not emphasize truth and justice over lawyering. It emphasizes legal technicalities and rights of the defendants and all that.” Such comments may play well with the general public, but they have sent a chill through the collective spine of lawyers – particularly defense lawyers – around the state.
http://rogueimc.org/2003/11/1757.shtml
He attempted an explanation of his support for capital punishment, even while agreeing that in some cases "the wrong guy" might be executed…. ...he thought the death penalty was preferable in some instances to a sentence of life without parole, Dean noted that in some instances criminals who are locked up for life might be freed on a legal "technicality" only to commit more horrible crimes. "That is every bit as heinous as putting to death someone who didn't commit the crime," he said.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A1907-2003Jul2?language=printer
William Cohen: …..In all my years writing about the death penalty, I have never heard any politician admit that he would countenance the death of an innocent person in order to ensure that the guilty die. Dean is maybe the first to acknowledge the unacknowledgeable. For that, I suppose, he ought to be congratulated. But by equating the murder of one individual by another with the murder of an innocent person by the government -- the unpreventable with the preventable -- he has casually trashed several hundred years of legal safeguards.
http://www.vpr.net/vt_news/stories/sharedlegacy/shared3.shtml
Vermont Public Radio, Bob Kinzel: "It's likely that Howard Dean's tenure in office will also have a long term effect on the state's criminal justice system. In his first years as Governor, Dean was often critical of judges who Dean thought did not hand down tough enough sentences. Over the last 10 years, Dean has appointed more judges than any previous governor and Dean describes his appointees as "law and order" judges. Dean's judicial philosophy appears to be having a significant impact - during his tenure as governor the average sentence handed down in Vermont has doubled - a situation that has led to an overcrowding of the state's prison system."
http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Articles8/Bister-Estrin-Jacobs_Dean.htm
His governorship was a campaign against reasonable approaches to substance abuse. ….. the only other option in his bag of tricks is tougher penalties. He has endorsed fully the National Governors Association's policy, which calls for increased involvement of law enforcement and disavows any form of legalization not only as a policy but also as a philosophy. In short, Dean not only believes in the war on drug users, but also would like to see it intensified.
…..While Dean vocalized his opposition to methadone treatment clinics and decried any efforts to reduce the penalties on marijuana use -- even labeling the latter as a gateway drug (a statistically questionable claim at best) -- the population of Vermont's prisons increased to potentially dangerous levels. There is a correlation between these two phenomena. The more police go after individuals who use drugs, and the more judges are instructed to put them in jail, the more prisoners there are. ……. according to the DEA, the number of drug arrests in Vermont increased under Dean's watch, peaking in the year 2001, with the imprisonment of women increasing by over 140%.
http://rogueimc.org/2003/11/1757.shtml
Robert Appel, former head of the state's public defender system, said he had constant clashes with Dean over funding for the service. According to Appel, Dean said on at least one public occasion that the state should spend less money providing the accused with legal representation, saying that "95% of criminal defendants are guilty anyway." He later claimed that he was kidding.
http://www.loper.org/~george/archives/2003/Aug/946.html
(He appointed) state judges who were willing to undermine the Bill of Rights. In a 1997 interview with the Vermont News Bureau, Howard Dean admitted his desire to expedite the judicial process by using such justices to 'quickly convict guilty criminals.' He wanted individuals that would deem 'common sense more important than legal technicalities.' Constitutional protections (legal technicalities) apparently undermine Dean's yearning for speedy trials. 
 
Dean, the darling of deregulating CATO Institute:

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/003/073ylkiz.asp?pg=1

The Appeal of Howard Dean
From the September 15, 2003 issue: Why he could be Bush's more dangerous opponent.
by Stephen Moore
09/15/2003, Volume 009, Issue 01


SEVERAL YEARS AGO an obscure Democratic governor from the politically inconsequential state of Vermont was the guest speaker at a Cato Institute lunch. His name was Howard Dean. He had been awarded one of the highest grades among all Democrats (and a better grade than at least half of the Republicans) in the annual Cato Fiscal Report Card on the Governors. We were curious about his views because we had heard that he harbored political ambitions beyond the governorship.

Dean charmed nearly everyone in the boardroom. He came across as erudite, policy savvy, and, believe it or not, a friend of free markets--at least by the standards of the Tom Daschle-Dick Gephardt axis of the Democratic party. Even when challenged on issues like environmentalism, where he favored a large centralized mass of intrusive regulations, Dean remained affable.

"You folks at Cato," he told us, "should really like my views because I'm economically conservative and socially laissez-faire." Then he continued: "Believe me, I'm no big-government liberal. I believe in balanced budgets, markets, and deregulation. Look at my record in Vermont." He was scathing in his indictment of the "hyper-enthusiasm for taxes" among Democrats in Washington.

He left--and I will never forget the nearly hypnotic reaction. The charismatic doctor had made believers of several hardened cynics. Nearly everyone agreed that we had finally found a Democrat we could work with. Since then, I've watched Dean's career with more than a little interest and we chat from time to time on the phone.
>>>>>>

[PROGRESSIVE1]

1. Dean is no Liberal. He is rather conservative and his record....

in Vermont shows this. Oh...wait, he won't release his records to the public. They will show how conservative he is!

[Marian]

2. Before all heck breaks loose,

thank you for printing the truth.

You are very brave.

Now, duck! :smoke:

[redqueen]

3. I'm wondering if this is news to anyone.

Thanks for pointing out the obvious! God knows the corporo-whore media ain't gonna do it!

:toast:

[kerry-is-my-prez]

52. I certainly hope it's news to the "quasi-Progressives" who support him

How they could support him knowing all this - I can't figure out.

[mouse7]

4. I'm reminded of something a teacher said to Charlie Brown...

"mwaa mwaaa mwaaa mwa mwaaaa mw mwaaa mwaa mwa m mwaaaaa...."

[wtmusic]

5. An intelligent reply

to a less than intelligent post! :-)

[blm]

7. Concern for civil liberty issues is not intelligent in your book?

What book is that? The Ugly American?

The left has made its mark on civil liberties issues. When did it become OK to dismiss their importance in an election year?

[wtmusic]

14. Just where did I dismiss the importance of civil liberties?

All I did was dismiss the importance of your post, which shows a wholly unwarranted and mischaracterizing attack on Dean.

[blm]

18. Dean's OWN words and actions are an attack?

If you think that then maybe you have some call to take it up with Dean, not me.

[Clark Can WIN]

68. Yes, in the topsy turvey world of some

Dean's own words are attacks on Dean. Dean should stop attacking Dean or Dean is going to get mad.

[ThirdWheelLegend]

77. nice one

:)

Let me add, if Dean doesn't stop misrepresenting Dean's positions then Dean is going to complain about Dean being misrepresented by Dean.

TWL

[kerry-is-my-prez]

53. How is citing articles about a person's record - less than intelligent?

Oh that's right - I forgot we're only supposed to talk about surface things like how their personality, how "tough" they appear to be, how big the meetups are, how much money they raised.

Discussing a person's stance on the issues and their record is verboten.

[killbotfactory]

6. Wow, Dean wanted to get tough on crime.

He also had clashes with everybody over funding. That's what happens when you balance a budget.

[cryofan]

16. Wow, dean wanted to raise the Medicare age to 70 and cut soc security

read Dean's own words:


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Most of the Democrats in the legislature rebelled against Dean over the budget cuts, and he ended up depending on Republican votes to pass most of his proposals. At the time, a local Vermont newspaper wrote, "The biggest items on Dean’s agenda for next year are likely to provoke more opposition from the Democrats than the Republicans. Nevertheless, Dean said he feels no particular pressure to deliver the goods to his party or to promote the Democratic agenda."15

In the mid-1990s, Dean even aligned himself with the likes of Republican Newt Gingrich on his stance on cutting Medicare. He opined at the time, "The way to balance the budget is for Congress to cut Social Security, move the retirement age to 70, cut defense, Medicare and veterans pensions, while the states cut everything else."16
....
The Rutland Herald described how one protestor, Henrietta Jordan of the Vermont Center for Independent Living, "said it would be much fairer to raise taxes on people with expensive homes and cars, children in private school and a housekeeper at home than to cut programs that helped the 66,000 Vermonters living with disabilities."17 Dean responded callously, brushing off the pleas of Vermont’s most vulnerable by saying, "This seems like sort of the last gasp of the left here."18"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


The rest of this article is here:
http://www.isreview.org/issues/32/dean.shtml

[Clark Can WIN]

69. Oh but nobody wants to hear that

It's the past, and the past doesn't count unless it belongs to someone else. Then it's everything and a bag of chips too.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

54. If it's okay in your book to cut programs in order to give tax cuts, etc.

Maybe I suggest you go to the Republican Party?

[Sinistrous]

8. He is truly a horrible man

He seems to want guilty people to get convicted.

I suggest you think about the term "justice", what it means and what it implies, and then come back and tell us why you find it such an awful idea.

[sandnsea]

10. "People get off on technicalities"

Since when is executing people before they can get out of prison because their civil rights have been violated justice?

[Sinistrous]

23. Good point.

But then, I do not support the death penalty in any case. I have to vehemently disagree with Dean on this point.

[kerryistheanswer]

63. Great research BLM

I hope people read this to get the full picture.

[blm]

67. coopted most of it from another poster.

But, thankyou.

[blm]

13. I suggest that many people FOUGHT for those "technicalities"

that are part of the criminal justice system.

It's the "technicalities" which give poorer defendants a chance to plead their cases.

YOU may be happy supporting a candidate who sounds like Sean Hannity on this issue, but many other Democrats will not be happy at all.

[Sinistrous]

19. I didn't think you were up to the challenge

The issue is still the preeminence of justice.

BTW: how is it that "poor people" derive a greater benefit from your beloved "technicalities" than others?

BTW2: Just which candidate do I support? Silly me. I didn't think I had made up my mind yet.

[blm]

22. You MAY be happy

supporting a candidate....

obviously, you are not unhappy with what Dean said...others of us are unhappy with his words.

[Sinistrous]

24. A bit short of answers, today, eh?

Your sentence implied that I do support such a candidate. Nice try at spin, though.

We are still waiting for your explanation of why you think true justice is so awful.

[sangh0]

25. So you've got the answer, huh? Then answer this!

WTF are the "technicalities" Dean refers to? I know of felonies, misdemeanors, laws, regulations, violations, etc but I can't find anything called a "technicality" in any of the law books.

What's a "technicality"? Or is that just what the Republicans call our Constitutional rights?

[Sinistrous]

29. These may clear up your confusion

The term legal technicality refers to the technical niceties and exactitudes of legal procedure, defenses based on such technicalities are known as "procedural defenses". It is often used in a pejorative sense to denote aspects of legal procedure which, if not attended to or followed, can change the outcome of a legal proceeding in ways seemingly contrary to the interests of justice. Some legal technicalities restrict access to courts and legal procedures or limit the discretion of a court in handing down judgment. In almost every case, well-established technical aspects of legal procedure have come into being and have been reinforced in a long tradition of appellate court decisions because of a perceived need to protect the rights of a class of persons who might otherwise suffer injustice at the hands of the legal system.

Constitutional guarantees such as those included in the Fourth and Fifth amendments to protect an accused from unreasonable search and seizure or from self-incrimination are sometimes referred to as "technicalities" by critics of court decisions based on them, even though they are foundations of the American legal system rather than obscure fine points. A commonly cited example would be attempted prosecution of a crime that was discovered by illegally obtained evidence. Such cases may be dismissed based on lack of evidence as the illegally obtained evidence would not be allowed to be the basis of the prosecution's case.

http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Legal-technicality

[sangh0]

35. What's a "technical nicety" and how much time do I get for breaking one?

If you truly want to clear up confusion, I'd suggest avoiding misleading terms like "technical niceties" and "technicalities". (Note, it's confusing to use a different form of the same word (ie. "technicality" and "technical") in a definition of the word)

Also, if "technicalities" are those procedures which "can change the outcome of a legal proceeding", can you tell me which procedures can be ignored because they won't change the outcome?

Why are defenses based on technicalities called "procedural defenses" and not "technicality defenses"? COuld it be that, in Dean's world, all of the legal procedures put in place to defend our Constitutional rights are "technicalities"? If so, what does Dean have against the Constitutio

[Sinistrous]

49. Shame on me. I did omit one major detail.

I forgot to put quotation marks around those definitions I lifted from the web page I cited in my post.

As to your post, could you possibly rephrase your questions so that they make some sense? A question such as, "can you tell me which procedures can be ignored because they won't change the outcome?", makes no sense.

[sangh0]

86. Does this help?

In an earlier post, you quoted the following:

"It is often used in a pejorative sense to denote aspects of legal procedure which, if not attended to or followed, can change the outcome of a legal proceeding in ways seemingly contrary to the interests of justice"

Basically, that sentence means that there are procedures "which, if not attended to or followed, can change the outcome of a legal proceeding ". It also imples that there are procedures which if not attended to or followed, WON'T change the outcome of a legal proceeding.

Can you identify any of those procedures which, if not followed, will not change the outcome of the proceeding?

[kerry-is-my-prez]

58. So you're all for "unreasonable search" and "entrapment"?

n/t

[Sinistrous]

71. Whaaaattt?

My mind boggles contemplating the contortions through which you had to run logic to get to that conclusion.

For your information, you are objecting to dictionary/encyclopedia definitions of terms. If you wish to provide other definitions from other sources, I will be very happy to consider them.

[redqueen]

27. Don't mean to cut in here...

But didn't any of these links contain the comment Dean made about making the public defender's office his opposition, or something to that effect?

That comment isolates those who are poor and cannot afford private counsel, and relegates them to second-class status when it comes to justice. If he didn't say that, then nevermind. But IIRC he did indeed set himself up as less than a friend of the public defender's office.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

57. TRUE justice is fine. Putting people in prison for medical marijuana

is not REAL justice in my book. Neither is 99% of what Dean supports.

[Sinistrous]

70. Meanwhile, back in the real world:

http://www.talkleft.com/archives/003909.html

"DEAN: I don't think they should throw people in jail in California, but I think do think -- here's what I think. I think the process by which medical marijuana is being legalized is the wrong process. I don't like it when politicians interfere in medicine. It's why I am very pro-choice. Because I don't think that is the government's business. So what I will do as president is, I will acquire the FDA within first 12 months to evaluate marijuana and see if it is, in fact, a decent medicine or not. If it is, for what purposes -- for certain purposes, and I suspect it will be for cancer patients and HIV/AIDS patients. And it should be allowed for that. But I suspect it will not be allowed for things like glaucoma. But we have to do the FDA studies. I think marijuana should be treated like every other drug in the process and there shouldn't be a special process which is based on politics to legalize it."

[mydawgmax]

15. Justice

Justice requires that the accused have adequate legal representation in a court of law. Even if we think someone is guilty they are allowed due process. Wasn't there some skirmish recently about whether OBL deserved a trial? Defend Dean if you want , but don't act like ensuring a functioning legal system is some sort of indulgence.

[Sinistrous]

20. Curious chastisement.

Justice requires that the accused have adequate legal representation in a court of law. This issue was not raised in the articles quoted.


Even if we think someone is guilty they are allowed due process. Wasn't there some skirmish recently about whether OBL deserved a trial? Since I am advocating justice, how is this relevant?


Defend Dean if you want , but don't act like ensuring a functioning legal system is some sort of indulgence. This is your characterization; certainly not mine.

[sangh0]

26. Not true

This issue was not raised in the articles quoted.

Yes it was. Dean spoke of "technicalities", which are (to those of us familiar with the Constitution) in truth, Constitutional rights.

[Sinistrous]

30. See Post #29

.

[sangh0]

37. I saw it. Your post is non-responsive

You asked where Dean brought up the issue, and I pointed out where. In response, you point to a post which agrees with me that "technicalities" are a misleading term for Constitutional protections.

[Sinistrous]

46. I'm glad you saw it. Now read it.

The distinction between legal tecnicalities and Constitutional rights is explained quite clearly.

[GreenArrow]

47. "Justice"

is not synonymous with punishment.

[Sinistrous]

72. I am sure no one here would disagree with your observation.

Certainly not Gov. Dean. (Nor me, for what little that is worth.)

[kerry-is-my-prez]

56. Did you actually read this? How can you NOT be concerned if you are

a Democrat?

[Sinistrous]

74. Gov. Dean's position on the death penalty does concern me,

as I stated in #23, above.

As for the rest, I do not subscribe to the "Dean's positions are bad because you or blm or anybody else say they are." school of political analysis.

[sandnsea]

9. I waaaant my Democratic Party back, I waaant Kerry!!!!

He's the one that's been there all along. On every issue Democrats care about. And taking a stand against letting the world become awash in WMD is also a Democratic value. Stopping the sales of weapons around the world is a Democratic value. Getting Marcos out of the Philippines was a Democratic value. Exposing the illegal wars in Central America was a Democratic value. Normalising relations with Vietnam was a Democratic value. It's time to send a Democratic President to the White House, it's time for Kerry!

[redqueen]

11. Funny! I wonder if Dean supporters will stop trashing Lieberman.

Time will tell!

[kerry-is-my-prez]

60. Maybe some of them will go to him. God know the rest of 'em would be too

liberal for the likes of them...

[reachout]

12. Not to sound trite,

but do you have anything new?

I don't think Dean is a progressive, nor do I think Clark or Lieberman or most of the others are (Kucinich being the obvious exception). Yes, Lieberman has a voting record that is to the left of Dean on several issues. However, Lieberman is completely in line with the neoconservative view on foreign policy. If this election is about anything, it must be about putting a halt to the PNAC attack on the world.

I'm no Dean booster, but I am impressed with the populist energy he seems to have harnessed. My hope is that if he wins he will govern to the left of where he is in the general election. I mean, Republicans have been doing it for years. They run on a populist/centerist platform, then take a hard right as soon as their hand comes off that Bible. I expect some of the above may help get him elected. I hope for something better once he is in office.

[blm]

17. Dean is more in line with Lieberman on foreign policy.

You didn't know that Dean promised Sharon more money for defense than even Bush offered?

Puhleeze. Dean has backed off his "evenhanded" policy saying he made a mistake.

THAT is to the left of Lieberman?

Dean was for giving Bush use of force authority in the Biden-Lugar bill. He was NOT antiwar from the beginning.

[reachout]

39. Yes, but the question becomes,

who am I willing to support?

All of the candidates in major contention are bad on the Israel-Palestine issue, as has been every U.S. President since the founding of Israel, simply to different degrees. Even Kennedy and Johnson, who talked a good game about brokering peace, allowed Israel to develop its nuclear weapons program without a peep.

I really want a progressive candidate, and I am a strong supporter of Dennis Kucinich, but I know he won't win the nomination. I'm hopeful but not blind. So, what I'm left with is picking the best of a bad lot.

On the day the IWR passed I vowed never to cast a vote in favor of anyone who voted for it. I really consider that piece of legislation a watershed event in American history. Let me be clear here, I would vote for any of the seven Republicans who voted against IWR before I vote for one Democrat who voted for it.

So, I'm pretty much left with the Doctor or the General. One with a spotty record as governor of a left-leaning state and one with a spotty record as a career militarist. Dean doesn't have the best voting record, but at least he has one I can judge and I know what I'm getting into. I would love to see Clark start somewhere lower on the political ladder and discover if he really is who he claims to be. He might one day make a great president, I don't know, but we're not at a juncture in history where I'm willing to throw those dice on the most powerful office in the land. His military career just doesn't give me enough to judge by.

I will be voting for Kucinich in the primary, because Gephardt will win his home state, and it is entirely a safe vote. If I were in a close state I would vote for Dean. If Dean wins the nomination, I will work to help get him elected. I won't do the same for Clark.

I'm going in with my eyes wide open. I know what Dean is about and believe me I will be right back out at my two weekly protests calling for an end to the occupation. I won't be giving him any more of a break than I give Bush. I can work for real progressive change 365, and give Dean that extra one this year.

[sandnsea]

21. His campaigning is to the left of his record

I have no idea where one would conclude he's going to govern to the left of his campaign. The whole point of the original post is that his record shows he is WAAAAY to the right of his campaign.

His campaign is smoke and mirrors. Supporting Biden-Lugar aside. Look at his health care promises. He said 99% of children in Vermont have health coverage and promises every American will get health care. That isn't true and once in a while you can get him to quote the real statistic, 95% of children in Vermont have coverage. Now that may seem impressive until you understand that at least half the states in the country have an equal number of children covered and it's because of SCHIP, a federal program. Iowa and New Hampshire cover 94% of children. And his health care plan will not guarantee every American health care, the only way to accomplish that is with single payer. And when you know that the plan will cost many people 7.5% of their income, you have to stop and wonder a little more. Everything else he is running on is the same. He promises the left-wing moon, but delivered nothing on his own in Vermont except benefits to business.

[WiseMen]

34. Which Dean are we talking about here?

[Padraig18]

28. Rant, rant, rant! Rave, rave, rave! Re-hash, re-hash, re-hash!

Anyone have any non-wacko viewpoints they'd care to discuss in a rational manner?

[NewYorkerfromMass]

Excellent post blm. Cognative dissonance here at DU

but real eye opening facts to the real world beyond.

[Karmadillo]

31. Wrong. You're attempting to define his real record based on

actions and statements located in the past. His real real record is to be found in current actions and statements or actions and statements located in the future. It's simply unfair to judge straight talking warriors against the status quo any other way.

[redqueen]

32. 'believe what I say, not what I did' n/t

[Clark4VotingRights]

62. Exactly. Believe what I say...

Bush's record as a Gov in Texas was indicative of how he'd "lead" the country.
Why would Dean's record as a Gov in Vermont not be indicative of how he'd lead?

[NewYorkerfromMass]

36. Funny but sadly true

based on what some apparently believe.

[blm]

41. BWAHAHHAHAHAHA....good one, K.

.

[jmaier]

50. Then I can expect to see

you repeat this logic when Clark is attacked over past voting record, for instance, versus where he stands on current campaign issues. That's comforting.

[Duder]

33. Edwards record is to the right of Lieberman

American Conservative Union rankings:

John Edwards - 30
John Kerry - 20
Joe Lieberman - 20

http://acuratings.com/

[blm]

42. Not according to LIFETIME ratings.

Kerry's record closest to Wellstone's whose lifetime rating was 3%.


American Conservative Union Ranking of Dem Canidates
Of course, lower is better. Congressional rankings are 2002, 2001 and lifetime. Numbers indicate the percentage of the time that the canidate voted "conservative".

Dennis Kucinich 2002-0%, 2001-20%, Lifetime-13%

John Kerry 2002-20%, 2001-4%, Lifetime-6%

John Edwards 2002-30%, 2001-16%, Lifetime-15%

Dick Gephardt 2002-8%, 2001-13%, Lifetime-12%

Joe Lieberman 2002-20%, 2001-28%, Lifetime-20%

Bob Graham 2002-20%, 2001-16%, Lifetime-18%


http://www.conservative.org/default.asp

[cindyw]

38. Dean's record is what has kept me from supporting him.

I am one to think that people tend to lead in the same way before they are elected for president as they do before. If Dean's record is an indicator and I think it is, he doesn't understand liverals and middle class needs. Environmental activists will have to continue fighting, even if on a lower level, with him to fight off corporate interests. Don't even get me started on guns or taxes.

I also do not fall for rhetoric. George W Bush taught me that. Gore had a hard time differentiating himself from Bush in the debates because Bush adopt democratic rhetoric and bastardizes it with him actions.

Dean may have talk like a liberal/progressive, but I will side with record over rhetoric.

[sandnsea]

40. And Dean's lies about his record

That's bothered me as much or more than the actual record. If he had been truthful all along, I'd be much more inclined to at least listen to him. As it stands, what's the point of listening to a liar.

[blm]

43. and his lies about the records of others.

If Dean had stuck to campaigning on his REAL record and show some principled beliefs in his positions, I wouldn't mind supporting his candidacy and see it as legitimate.

As it stands now, I find his candidacy to be a sham, a tent show.

[Clark4VotingRights]

59. That's what so amuses, and concerns me, about Dean.

(In addition to his tendency to say the wrong thing.)

People rag on Clark 'cause he, like many military folks,
has voted republican. So they question how he will lead.

No need to question how Dean would lead.
Past is prologue.
Dean will be conservative, at best.

[worldgonekrazy]

44. Pragmatic Populism requires you to be a centrist

blm, we all know Dean is not a flaming liberal. Many people like him for specifically that reason. Others, such as myself, recognize that a flaming liberal won't get elected as President and furthermore would not reflect the will of the populace anyways.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

61. But he's been "saddled" with the label of "Liberal" and with his rhetoric

he will never be able to convince people otherwise.

How do we benefit from this?

A commentator said the other day that she thinks that people are voting for Dean solely because they want to see him "beat up" on Bush and NOTHING else. That a lot of them don't even think about whether he can actually beat Bush. I'm beginning to think she's right.

Kerry and Clark are more than capable of beating up on Bush AND at least support a lot of the Progressive agenda.

[Clark4VotingRights]

45. Thanks for this research

blm

[Clark Can WIN]

48. shhhhhhhhhhhh....................

It's a secret.

[Tatiana]

51. OMG.

"In all my years writing about the death penalty, I have never heard any politician admit that he would countenance the death of an innocent person in order to ensure that the guilty die. Dean is maybe the first to acknowledge the unacknowledgeable. For that, I suppose, he ought to be congratulated. But by equating the murder of one individual by another with the murder of an innocent person by the government -- the unpreventable with the preventable -- he has casually trashed several hundred years of legal safeguards."

OMG. I just don't even really know what to say to that. My knee-jerk reaction is how can you sacrifice innocent lives, even one, to take away the lives of criminals?

This is painful stuff. I don't think it automatically disqualifies Dean from the nomination, but it does show that he is indeed much more to the right than people are led to believe.

[babzilla]

65. that is the reporter's BS interpretation of what Dean really said

what Dean really said (of course we will have to dig up the MTP transcript to fill in the ellipses):

"We had a case where a guy who was a rapist, a serial sex offender, was convicted, then was let out on . . . a technicality, a new trial was ordered and the victim wouldn't . . . go through the second trial. And so the guy basically got time served, and he was the man who murdered a 15-year-old girl and raped her and then left her for dead. . . . So life without parole doesn't work, either."

Going on about felons getting out of jail and then killing, say, "15- and 12-year-old girls," he added, "That is every bit as heinous as putting to death someone who didn't commit the crime."

As you can see, Dean did not say or infer that he would countenance the death of an innocent person in order to ensure that the guilty die.

His point was that the revolving door that allows serial sex offenders out on the street to either intimidate their previous victims and/or prey on additional victims "is every bit as heinous as putting to death someone who didn't commit the crime."

Here Dean is saying that it is equally heinous that there are innocent people on death row and that there are innocent women who will be attacked by serial sexual predators who are let out on parole after getting life without parole.

Hope your knee feels better now.

[Octafish]

55. Thanks for posting the Truth about Dean.

No matter the rhetoric, Dean is not what he says he is. Rather than all the position-papers spewed out by his PR machine, Dean's record shows what his actual positions are. And these give us the best perspective of what a Dean administration would be like. At BEST, it would be like Jimmy Carter's. That's not much to hope for, is it?

[neverforget]

64. His stand on markets and deregulation also bothers me.

"You folks at Cato," he told us, "should really like my views because I'm economically conservative and socially laissez-faire." Then he continued: "Believe me, I'm no big-government liberal. I believe in balanced budgets, markets, and deregulation. Look at my record in Vermont." He was scathing in his indictment of the "hyper-enthusiasm for taxes" among Democrats in Washington.

Is he for the free market as in the deregulated electricity market, cable, telecommunications? What else does he want to deregulate if anything?

[blm]

66. He pushed deregulation of electricity in Vermont for years and

then he arranged the sale of Vermont Yankee to the BFEE scum of the earth Koch brothers.

[ThirdWheelLegend]

78. Koch..

Are they not also big Bush contributors?

TWL

[blm]

80. Yes. They ran a million dollars worth of ads against McCain.

I am quite certain they targeted DEan early knowing he was planning to run for president, and have correspondence on file that will be used against him if he's the nominee.

That's how they operate. GOP operatives tried to entrap Clinton in a deal when he was governor as early as 89. He didn't bite. It was in Conason's book, the Hunting of the President.

[mitchum]

73. There you go with all of these libelous facts about Dean

How dare you?
Good work.

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

75. Well if he's really THAT far to the right

then he should have no problem attracting swing voters and attracting a substantial following in red states. Thanks for the good news!

[ThirdWheelLegend]

76. good news? Moving our country further right is good news?

Or at least not changing anything is good news?

:shrug:

I guess we define good news differently.

TWL

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

85. Oh my...

Getting Bush out of the White House is moving the country further right? I beg to differ.

[blm]

79. You're prepared to push the Dem party over a cliff for a CENTRIST?

Dean is the worst centrist in the Dem party. If DU was paying attention to Dean back when he was governing and taking these positions we'd be treating him like Zell Miller.

[Padraig18]

81. Wrong answer!

Prepared to push the democratic Party to VICTORY in November, is the truth.

[blm]

82. Dean IS the GOP plan to avoid facing Kerry while the BCCI trial goes on.

But, then, I don't expect people to understand anything unless the corporate media explains it to them.

[Padraig18]

87. Riiiiiiiiiigghhhhhttttt....

We're all just to stupid to see it... :eyes:

[blm]

93. See what you want. The press didn't suddenly change last year did it?

Amazing how they applied that teflon to Dean so early and focused on just him and process stories for so many months, with no scrutiny of his 11 year record.

That suits you. It doesn't suit me.

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

83. It's called a "joke"

I've read enough of your posts to know that you dislike Dean immensely. I'm just poking fun. That's still allowed, isn't it?

EDITED for SPELLING!

[killbotfactory]

84. 100% Correct! Joe's the true liberal!

Go Joe!

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

88. You got that right!

Nothing screams "liberal" like being the guy who invented the Office of Homeland Security and who advocated pre-emptive war with Iraq years before it was fashionable!

[Walt Starr]

89. Howard Dean is neither a "Conservative" nor a "Liberal"

Those tired old worn out labels may have worked for two dimensional candidates in the past, but simply do not have the depth to describe a multidimensional candidate such as Howard Dean.

Howard Dean is a Reasonable!

[TLM]

90. Translation: Kerry is losing hard and since I can't defend him...

I'll attack Dean.



Same tried old crap. Kerry's DLC calls Dean super liberal, then they accuse Dean of lying when his record proves the attacks were baseless.

A dem who is tough on crime, against big government, and balances budgets... yeah that's really going to hurt us bad. :eyes:

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

91. But his supporters aren't.

Dean, who is my candidate, is reflecting the outrage of many of us at the "compromises" that many of the supposed "liberals/progressives" who have fallen under the spell of the DLC believe will win for them. Especially the conscienceless vote for the IWR made by Kerry, Gephardt, Lieberman and Edwards. All who claim to be liberals.

Dean, despite his faults, has awakened a dormant left that believes that it is necessary to oppose, not appease, the Goober-in-Chief now infesting the White House and his ultra-right policies.

I would prefer Kucinich, Mosely-Braun, or Sharpton, but I'm realist enough to think they have no chance to win the nomination.

This fight isn't about Dean, but about the soul of the party. The appeasers vs those who demand a change of course from the rightward drift that the party has taken since the DLC convinced many that "we can't win" unless we become the moderate wing of the republican party.

[blm]

92. Dean has the LONGEST record of kissing GOP ass of all the candidates.

Some of us just aren't as easily fooled by his RHETORIC that doesn't match his longtime record of compromising and supporting GOP issues.

He LIED about his antiwar stance and only incomprehensive dolts could possibly STILL believe him when you read all his different stances on it, and even his admission that his position would have still led to war. It's as if you want to believe him when he lies and WON'T believe him when he admits the truth.

[nomaco-10]

94. Thank you blm....

this post was responsible for my conversion today over to the Lieberman camp. You're so right Dean would be the ruination of this country. I'm so glad I had an alternative to Dean in the form of Joe Lieberman. I always know where Joe stands on all the issues. He is the true dem in this race and I just lost sight of it for awhile. Thank you for opening my eyes to this.
GO JOE! JOE'S GOT MOJO FOR 2004!!!