Q: Will Dean actually lose black voters to Bush?

[NewYorkerfromMass]

The GOP recognizes their achilles heel against the Democrats and after Gore got over 90% of the African American vote, is preparing to counter it in November........... link

The bottom line is- Is Dean vulnerable to Bush? Does he allow the GOP an opening to cut into a critical part of our base?
I read many posts here the past 16 hours suggesting that we may very well be vulnerable. And this perception, real or imagined or fabricated, has been associated with Dean for months now. I really don't think we have the problem with any of the other candidates- especially Kerry, Lieberman, Gephardt, and Edwards.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

1. Dean Is Damaged Goods on Race

Some people might despise Al Sharpton for going after Dean in the latest debate, but the bottom line is that Dean has a poor record on issues of race, and that (and Sharpton's comments) will hurt him in the general election.

That's the practical reality. You might hate the practical reality, but there it is nevertheless.

That said, I certainly hope there's no way any Dem would LOSE the Black vote to Bush!

DTH

[adadem]

16. I highly doubt

the minority vote will turn out for Dean after last evening and the Confederate flag remark.

[liberalnurse]

45. I recognize this mission.....

To seek and maximize as much as possible, any potiential hint of damage to Dean. Dean is the front runner who can beat *bush. Some folks love *bush.......Do the math......

[Printer70]

56. Clark will lose black votes...

For supporting the Iraq war in which black troops died needlessly. Blacks are overrepresented in the US military.

[Tweed]

72. That is by far the poorest logic I've ever seen in my life

I don't even know where to begin on that one.
1. Clark doesn't support the war.
2. Clark didn't vote for the war: there is no direct link between him and the war happening
3. It wasn't just black soliders that have died in Iraq.
4. Those not directly affected aren't likely to vote based on the fact that other black people have died in a war.
5. If they do, they are more likley to blame Bush. You know, the guy who actually made the case for this war to happen.

The Dean camp must be falling fast if this is the best you can come up with.

[Printer70]

74. War supporters have blood on their hands

Clark said he'd vote for the Iraq war resolution. He cheerleaded for it on CNN. You can't aid and abet wars and then wash your hands clean when the casualty count comes in. Sorry, but Clark let down all minorities and the poor by supporting an unnecessary war. Clark himself has said these groups are overrepresented in the military.

[fertilizeonarbusto]

2. HAHAHAHAHAHA

Puh-leeze

[janx]

8. My reaction

exactly.

[Red_Storm]

10. Puh-leeze

No blacks or latinos EVER worked in his cabinet all the years Dean was Governor of Vermont........and Dean speaks about race and affirmative action in his campaign, PUH-LEEZE !!!!!!!!

[Eloriel]

41. In his CABINET - 6 people -- but there were minorities on staff

That's the cute little trick Sharpton played.

And his campaign staff is a model of diversity. But that don't count, right? Nor do his endorsements from people who would care a great deal.

Sharpton's attacks on Dean stand a good chance of suppressing minority turnout. All so he can try to get more delegates going into the convention.

Dangerous damn game. If Dean is the nominee, if Sharpton's unfair and highly selective attacks have that sort of impact, ya'll can thank Sharpton for 4 more years of Bush.

The ironic thing is that Dean not only isn't a racist, but he's doing more than any of the other candidates to bring up racial issues in a positive dialog for improving racial relations, undercutting the GOP "Southern Strategy," and healing the racial divide. His speech on the subject of race was masterful (and he writes most or all of his own speeches):

Restoring the American Community - SC, Dec. 7, 2003
http://blog.deanforamerica.com/archives/002565.html#more

DU thread: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=844281#846961

Black Commentator http://www.blackcommentator.com/68/68_cover_dean.html

[_Jumper_]

48. Judicial appointments

Did he appoint any blacks or Latinos to the state judiciary?

[Red_Storm]

54. and the answer is ..................................................

.....................................................

[Toot]

3. From my view...

NO! I'm black and I still fully support Dean.

[Rose Siding]

13. Good to know, Toot

Welcome to DU :hi:

[ariesgem]

73. Same here!

This AA will continue to support Dean. His agenda based on jobs, healthcare, the economy and balancing the budget are MY ISSUES and in the long term, will produce positive results to African Americans and others. He does not have to cater directly to me (because of my race)on a silver platter.

[Hep]

4. Nope

Thanks for asking. Next question.

[billbuckhead]

5. Dean will lose black voters to Bush without question but real problem is

many African Americans will stay home. Maybe Dean will get some votes from NRA and Confederate flag crowd to compensate, but I think the trade off will go against him and the Democratic party.

[ecstatic]

9. black voters will not stay home. After all, Bush is in office

and everyone I know can't stand him.

[Marian]

14. I agree.

:pals:


:kick:

[stickdog]

64. How and why will Dean lose black voters to Bush?

Please explain yourself.

[FubarFly]

67. um, no

b*sh is absoltely reviled in African American communities, and Dean isn't taking them or their concerns for grant it. I can understand why elements of the right wing media would try to parlay this into something other than an typical case of grandstanding by Sharpton. The illusion that African Americans won't turn out in force may be the only comfort protecting them from the impending reality of a Democratic landslide.

And won't that be a sight to see. B-)

[wtmusic]

6. Yes, some

but Kerry will lose many more white voters from his flip-flopping on the war issue, IMO

[ant]

23. actually, maybe not

Blacks opposed the war more than whites did. I would think that means Kerry's flip-flopping will hurt him more among blacks than whites.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1016247,00.html

Even at the height of the popularity of the war against Iraq in April, a Pew Research Centre poll found only 44% of African-Americans supported it, the lowest level of any group surveyed. Overall, 66% of Americans favoured military action, with support at 77% among whites and 67% among Hispanics.

[CWebster]

7. Well that seems to be your mission. nt

[helleborient]

11. Do you see a candidate monopolizing African-American support?

From what I've seen, Dean, Kerry, Edwards and Kucinich all have shown strong support among African-American leaders.

I don't know I guess I don't really think the Chair of the Congressional Black Caucus Elijah Cummings, Sheila Jackson-Lee and Jesse Jackson, Jr. are just being stupid in supporting Dean and can't mobilize supporters.

Nice try to tear Dean down, but this particular point seems pretty lame.

[Cheswick2.0]

12. this looks familiar

B-)

[Carni]

15. In fairness to Dean

How large of a population of Blacks does Vermont have?

Not being a smart ass...I have no idea???

[PROGRESSIVE1]

21. Vermont is 95% percent white!

Dean is being unfairly targeted, and shame on Tweety for trying to implicate Governor Dean as being racist!

Scum you are Matthews! :puke:

[Carni]

37. That is what I thought!

Typical Mathews crap!

[TLM]

38. Not only that it was snarky BS... Dean has people of color on his staff

just not the 6 people on his cabinet. Sharpton was trying very hard to say Dean's WHOLE staff was without blacks or latinos, and Sharpton had to back off and split hairs down to just Dean's cabinet of 6 people not having any blacks or latinos.

[Tatiana]

17. Did he ever have them to begin with?

Dunno, seems like Edwards would have more support.

[bitchkitty]

18. Oh, sure.

Black people will flock to Bush in droves. It's not like they can think for themselves, you know. Not like they can understand how a Bush administration means disaster for minorities.

</sarcasm>

The beautiful, intelligent people of color in my circle of friends thank you for your concern, and wanted me to tell you what you can do with it.

66. excellent touche

:toast:

[w4rma]

19. Q: Is NewYorkerfromMass trying to promote the GOP to minorities?

Is NewYorkerfromMass holding the Democratic Party to a double standard when compared to the Republican Party?

Is NewYorkerfromMass more interested in appearance than policy?

[ant]

20. clearly minorities are stupid

I mean, to hear people in this forum talk about it, all it takes is throwing a bunch of brown and black people on stage or into a few key positions and presto! minority support. Minorities don't care about actual policy or anything, they're easily distracted and focus only on which candidate can point to hiring the most people of color.

:eyes:

The funny thing is that this whole episode has revealed precisely the sort of subtle racism Dean talks about. Do you know how abso-fucking-lutely condescending this entire discussion of how many people were in these 6 spots is to minorities? We're not fucking stupid, alright? It's not like anyone with an ounce of intelligence is going to totally dismiss Dean because he didn't have any blacks or browns IN 6 POSITIONS.

IN VERMONT.

This whole thing has moved me MORE into the Dean camp if only because the man is right and you people clearly need a good talking to on this issue!

[Carni]

24. Vermont is tiny

Which is why I want to know what the minority populace is in Vermont!
If there are very few people of color residing in Vermont then what was Dean supposed to do? Grab people from other states to fill positions in his cabinet?

[ant]

35. vermont is whiter than snow

And really, it's not a big deal. I find it totally legitimate to say maybe there weren't minorities to fill any one of those 6 positions. I used to study physics, and all through college and grad school I was the only minority I knew. Everyone else was white or asian, so when people talk about the lack of minority professors in science depts. across the nation, the statement that there just aren't that many qualified people to draw from is NOT a cover for racism but a statement reflecting the reality of the field. In fact, the one hispanic guy I did eventually meet skipped the university route because he wanted to make money so he headed for private industry. Anyway, the point of this rambling is that we know ONE fact - no minorities in 6 positions - and from this people are jumping to all sort of absurd conclusions. We all know Dean isn't a racist, so the lack of minorities in these 6 positions doesn't really say anything about him.

But I'll tell you what DOES says something about Dean:

http://www.africana.com/articles/qa/bw20031107dean.asp

How would you address the overly burdensome — some say racist — enforcement of the drug war in communities of color?

We're going do three things. The first thing we're going to do is end the sentencing disparity between crack cocaine and powdered cocaine. That's just silly. There's no judicial basis for that. Secondly, we're going to ask that drug addicted people be considered as medical problems not judicial problems. Now, if you're shooting convenience store clerks, you're gonna go to jail — and you should. If you're dealing heroin to small children, you're gonna go to jail. But if your problem is that you're a drug addict, you're going to go to rehab, because jail is not the place for people who are ill. Thirdly, we're gonna end sentencing disparities. The penalty for murdering a white person in this country is significantly longer and tougher than the penalty for murdering a black person — and that's because of sentencing disparities at the federal level. We need to evaluate judges on a regular basis, and make sure that judges have to answer for their own sentencing behavior. I believe it's possible that many judges are unaware of what they do and they need to be called up on it. And that needs to be part of their evaluation as a federal judge.


So while Bush is parading his tokens on stage - and isn't Powell leaving anyway? - Dean is talking about racism in the justice system and how to address it. That's what's going to get him minority support. No one's going to give a shit about 6 positions in VT when Dean's talking about addressing the racism of the drug war, the death penalty, etc. What's more, his response last night to the question about granting citizenship to those who enlist was incredibly thoughtful; he's clearly aware of how the military often exploits the poor and people of color.

[Toot]

44. Great post.

Couldn't agree more.

[ant]

51. thanks

and welcome :hi:

[stickdog]

69. Thank you for that post.

Dean's not God's gift to race relations, but he's definitely talking sense about it and he's not afraid to confront the issue head on no matter what audience he's speaking to.

[corporatewhore]

22. he wont lose votes but he cant attack bush on diversity

[DoveTurnedHawk]

25. Excellent Point

Bush has so many ripostes to Dean it's scary.

1) Dean cannot attack Bush on going AWOL, because Dean didn't even serve;

2) Dean cannot attack Bush on screwing the middle-class, because Dean is for a middle-class tax increase;

3) Dean cannot attack Bush on foreign policy, because Dean has no foreign policy experience;

4) Dean cannot attack Bush on issues of race, because Bush can point out his Cabinet is more diverse than Dean's.

The list goes on and on.

Actually, it's more accurate to say that Dean certainly COULD attack Bush on all these issues, but Bush has an immediate counterattack that will make Dean look worse than if he hadn't attacked at all.

Dean is damaged goods.

DTH

[helleborient]

27. And Bush can point out Clark's history of supporting his father...duh

[helleborient]

30. Have you watched how the Bush administration is dealing with O'Neill?

Painting it all as O'Neill's lame attempt to sell his book and promote himself...but full of dubious truthfulness.

Why wouldn't Bush do the same to Clark with Clark's history of supporting Republicans but now changing his mind?

[unfrigginreal]

50. You're kidding right?

Dean's attacking Bush on points 2,3 and 4 are what got him to frontrunner status to begin with. The AWOL charge won't be used by any of them in the GE.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

52. Front-Runner Status With Angry Dems

Who were hungry for anyone who spoke to their anger.

It will be a different story entirely when Bush ramps up his $200MM war chest, especially with moderate Dems and Independents.

And you're wrong about no one bringing up Bush's AWOL status. Kerry and Clark both could, and I believe both would.

DTH

[stickdog]

70. Clark can't attack Bush on anything, because Clark has never

held an elective office.

See how that works?

[Toot]

28. For that matter no one can because

repubs always turn to Rice and Powell to show how diverse * can be.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

29. Sure People Can, But It Has to Be People With a History of Achievement

On issues of race in order to have any resonance.

Dean doesn't have that history. Quite the contrary.

DTH

[helleborient]

32. And without history of supporting Bush's father...

How long will it take Bush and Co. to dig up something to make Clark's candidacy look like sour grapes...instead of him being a REAL Democrat?

[NewYorkerfromMass]

40. I'm afraid Dean is a "Do as I say, not as I do" guy

that's the point.

[sandnsea]

26. I fear he'll just lose voters, period

They may not vote for Bush, but I fear he's turned off a large number of traditional Democratic voters in general. Couple that with the loss of centrists to Bush, and he is just not what we need.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

31. Absolutely Right, He's Already Losing Them Left and Right

But this year seems different. "I've done a cursory survey of my staff," says one campaign official. "None of them would go work for Dean. They hate the guy. His arrogance. The things he says. The way he insults us, like he's the only one who's a real Democrat."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A8439-2004Jan11?language=printer

DTH

[helleborient]

34. Yep, this is why he's leading and Clark is back below 20 in NH...

I get it.

[Melodybe]

33. Dean is the favortie of the blacks I know, he will do things that will

actually HELP black people and they know it. In fact Dean is the favorite of most Democrats that I know. I'm in MS and I can honestly say that there people here like Dean the most with Edwards a distant second.

[sandnsea]

59. I know one person who likes Dean

The rest are horrified. I'm in OR and it's Kucinich or Kerry all the way. Maybe it's because we're traditionally strong on the environment, I don't know. But if sharp increases in racial disparity in prison populations in Vermont is any indication, I wouldn't be voting for Dean if I were a minority.

[stickdog]

71. Perhaps you'd meet more people if you got out a little more?

Just a friendly suggestion.

[CMT]

36. No

and I see no indication of it either. If he is so unpopular with minorities why is he getting the lion share of endorsements by minority representatives? Why is his campaign the only one we hear about doing outreach? What other campaigns have proof that they are doing better than Dean among minority voters? In two upcoming primaries with many minority voters Dean is doing well. He is leading in DC (where most of the mainly minority city council also endorsed him). He is also leading in most recent polls of SC. He is running second to Edwards in NC (a solid second 40-25 percent with no one else in double digits) and this is another state with lots of minority votes.

Show us where your candidate is excelling with minority voters? I see a lack of enthusiasm for all of our candidates at this point including Sharpton.

[corporatewhore]

43. as sharpton said

you need co-signers when your credits bad

[CMT]

46. you didn't answer the questions

Why isn't Sharpton doing better? Jesse Jackson had much more enthusiasm in the African-American community in '84 and especially '88. Where is it for Sharpton? Where is the enthusiasm for Clark, Kerry, Lieberman, Kucinich, Braun, or Edwards? Why is Dean being singled out on this question. He seems to be doing as well or better than any other candidate among minorities.

[The_Counsel]

53. Sharpton WOULD Say That, Wouldn't He...?

...Is Sharpton not the only candidate that doesn't have an endorsement of significance under his belt? I think even Mosely-Braun has more than Reverend Al.

Sour grapes?

YOU decide! ;-)

[donotpassgo]

78. How's Sharpton's credit with the NYPD?

TWO WORDS: TAWANNA BRAWLEY

[cindyw]

39. No, but it could affect the get out the vote efforts.

There are some minorites who feel abandoned altogether and may not show up unless Dean can change his method of speaking. He has to stop answering questions about minorities by talking about making white Americans feel more comfortable with them. Sometimes when he talks it sound more like 1963 than 2003. The struggle has shifted from Whites being "comfortable" to fighting institutionalzed racism, fairness in the school system, helping minorities enter the home ownership market in more frequency, helping create more small business owners and fairness in the justice system.

[beaconess]

47. Worth repeating

He has to stop answering questions about minorities by talking about making white Americans feel more comfortable with them.

Thanks!

[mmonk]

42. Not to bush

but he needs to work on the damage control from Sharpton (to make sure they are energized to vote if he becomes the nominee).

[Stuckinthebush]

49. Of course not

The low percent of black voters who vote Republican will remain steady. No black voter who is a Democratic supporter would cross over to Bush because Dean had no cabinet members of color in a state composed of 98% white residents. That is absurd.

[DemBones DemBones]

55. I think a lot of people, of all colors, would refuse to vote for

either major party if Dean's the Democratic nominee.

[Printer70]

57. "What are you going to do"

"vote Republican?"

-Warren Beatty to a black audience, in "Bulworth"
--

Not going to happen.

[beaconess]

58. Is that how you respond to the Dean supporters who threaten to

walk if he doesn't get the nomination?

[Printer70]

75. Dean supporters will bolt...

You can count on that. I don't think anyone's going to sit around and let the Party get hijacked by the DLC. Someone's going to have to send the message and pay the price for tampering with the will of the people.

[cindyw]

76. I hate to point out the obvious here, but if Dean loses the nomination

then the "will" of the people was against him. At that point the "will" of the people will be to get Bush out. If Dean supporters cannot feel that "will", we will have a problem, but it won't be that the "will" of the people was not heard.

[Printer70]

79. Oh please

Then, by that logic, when corporations were spending hundreds of millions to con the people to support the Republican candidates, the "will of the people" had been served because by golly the people had pulled the levers. It's called manipulation and that's why McCain-Feingold was passed. The DNC/DLC machine has the press contacts- a day doesn't go by that Dean isn't savaged. This is the standard way a party machine savages a grassroots candidate who doesn't kiss their ring.

[SahaleArm]

81. That's the standard excuse for not voting for the nominee...

My guy was sabotaged so I won't vote for the nominee?

[Aunt Eunice]

60. I'm wondering..

..if Dean ever did anything to help attract more minorities to Vermont?

If it is only 5% minority population, wouldn't Dean and the nearly all white population want to be more diverse?

Did Dean ever put in place programs for affordable housing, etc to attract more minorities to Vermont?

[GreenArrow]

61. Just asked a black voter about Dean (asked an Hispanic too)

The black voter liked Clark, and felt he was very intelligent and competent. She was lukewarm about Dean.

The Hispanic voter, when asked about Dean, replied" I fear that that gentleman is going to give the presidency back to Bush." He favors Kucincich.

That's two voters and their likely choices for the primaries. In the general, both of them will vote Democratic, regardless of candidate. The racial issues that are swirling about Dean at the moment will probably only affect him negatively in the primary. If these issues start clinging to him, it could keep minority voters at home if he's the nominee.

[burning bush]

62. Yes, the same time Monkeys Fly From Chimpy's Ass

No New Ceasars

Put the people in power.

[corporatewhore]

65. i actually would love to see that happen during his tate of union speech

[stickdog]

63. [sarcasm] Yes. Black people love Bush. We all know they are easily

manipulated.

The question is insulting, NYFM.

I expect better from you.

[fob]

68. The question could be put to any of the candidates, but since

you bring up Dean, here's your answer. No.

And here's how. Dean(or any other Dem that gets the nomination) will lobby, secure and announce Bill Clinton for a position in the Administration, you remember Bill don't you? The first "black" President?

No soup for you!

Next!

fob

[hellhathnofury]

77. NO!

Sharpton is a race-baiting self-aggrandizing fraud and everyone knows it.

He was ignored because his only relevance came from being acknowledged.

[Constitution]

80. Absolutely

The man's record is clear and he can surround himself with as many people as he can who want to be tokens but it won't help his image. He will probably lose even more votes among white civil rights workers who feel guilty about having people like him in their race.

[hellhathnofury]

82. That's a horrible race-baiting thing to say.

[beaconess]

83. Do YOU feel guilty about having people like Trent Lott in YOUR race?