Was Sharpton endorsing tokenism?

[markus]

So, Dean didn't have one of his six cabinet secretaries from a minority. He did say he had senior staff member (and some senior staff can wield as much power in government as the holder of a cabinet post).

How many state employees? How do they hold up to community standards and population? How many women? How many gays?

If there had been fair employement and advancement throughout state government under Dean, would that count for nothing?

I think Sharpton's remark was a cheap shot and a distraction. I can't fathom an honest motivation for it, given it seemed a radical departure from the Al Sharpton we had come to know in the debates, and the return of the "old" Al Sharpton.

[Cannikin]

1. Kinda sounded that way...He probably didnt think he was...

I think it was a last ditch effort to discredit Dean. I'm not sure what he thought it would accomplish.

[Bombtrack]

2. alot of people here who dislike Dean agree with you on this

that Dean shouldn't have had to go out of his way to find a minority for his cabinet.

[liberalnurse]

3. Sharpton just wanted attention.

Attacking Dean makes him think he is important. He was riding in on the coat tails of Dean.....He has a chance to blabber about with an audience.

CMB nailed him good.

[wtmusic]

10. CMB smacked him down

Al was offering his one talking point and not much else...

[DoveTurnedHawk]

4. It's Tokenism ONLY If You Believe There Were NO Qualified Minorities in VT

And that is simply impossible.

DTH

[wtmusic]

9. add 'highly qualified' minorities

who wanted the job.

Very possible.

[ecstatic]

11. were all the whites "highly qualified"? nt

[wtmusic]

13. One has to hope so

In a state where the ratio of whites to nonwhites is 200:1 Dean would be SEVERELY limiting his talent pool if he insisted on this kind of tokenism.

How many Samoans were on his cabinet? How many Native Americans? How many gays and Jews are on Sharpton's senior campaign staff? These are equally valid questions.

[Clark Can WIN]

19. The cry of "tokenism" smacks of racism IMO

The Reverend asked if there were ANY minorities in his cabinet, ever. That's over a decade and 5 terms.

FYI Smoans and Native Americans would be included.

Now Dean is "limiting his talent pool" if he hires minorities for his cabinet?????????? Did you really say that??????

[DoveTurnedHawk]

21. I Find It Fascinating How Certain Dean Supporters Sound Like...

...they get their talking points straight from the RW.

Dean can do no wrong. Let's have some Dean clapping, that'll make it all better!

Suddenly Sobelson is interrupted by a wave of slow clapping that builds in intensity, the same kind of inspiration clap the Dean staff does at the office. What will happen at midnight?

"Many Dean claps, some serious Dean clapping," says Sobelson, "chanting, singing, clapping, you never know."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A8439-2004Jan11?language=printer

DTH

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[wtmusic]

23. Spare me the insinuation

yes, you read it right, he's limiting his talent pool.

You apparently know nothing about hiring people. I guess Dean should walk down the street and hire the first black person he comes to.

Totally unrealistic.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

24. Umm, No One Is Saying That

What Sharpton DID say was that Dean should have had more aggressive minority outreach programs, that Dean should have tried more "out-of-the-box" thinking to diversify his cabinet, ESPECIALLY in a very white state like Vermont.

Give me a fucking break. No one is saying Dean should "hire the first black person he comes to" and your attempt to frame the discussion like that is completely offensive, IMO.

DTH

[wtmusic]

28. Should...according to Al

frame the discussion however you like. This is a non-issue and cheap pandering.


IMO.

[Clark Can WIN]

29. You apparently know nothing about me.

Now Dean should walk down the street and hire the first black person he comes to ???????????

Keep talking, this is good stuff.:thumbsup:

[wtmusic]

32. I'd love to learn more

but I'd like to see the promise of some substance :-)

[Clark Can WIN]

39. You're entirely correct.

I am a person of no substance who knows absolutely nothing about hiring people.

Excuse me, I'm off to find the surveillance cameras you obviously have hidden in my home and office.:silly:

[Clark4VotingRights]

62. Agreed. "Quotas," "tokenism" are both smack of racism.

And are widely used.
Bush loves to attack "quotas." (Wink nudge know what he means...)

[Hammie]

54. Could you be more wrong?

It doesn't matter how many qualified "minorities" there are. If you hire one of "them" because of their race/gender/ ,or whatever, and not because they are the BEST candidate for the job, it is tokenism. I don't know much about Vermont politics, but I do know this. If Dean hired a black candidate over MORE qualified non-black candidates, so that he could have a black person on his cabinet that would be tokenism and he would be unfit to be President of this country. Frankly, if he made his cabinet selection on any other grounds than the candidate's actual qualifications he has betrayed the people of Vermont and is unfit to be President of this country.

Your apparent suggestion that it isn't tokenism if the "minority" candidate is at least minimally qualified, is absurd.

Edited to Add:

What difference does it make what you, I or any one else believes about the presence of qualified minority candidates in Vermont?
If I believe that my perpetual motion machine will make energy too cheap to meter, and the electric utility doesn't deploy it because their investigation can turn up no evidence that it actually works, does that mean that they are heartless bastards who would let old people freeze to protect their precious profits? Of course not.

All that should matter is what are the facts. Do you have any evidence that minority candidates were passed up by Dean because they weren't white?


Hammie out.

[redqueen]

5. Seems that way, yes

Cheap shot? Yes. Distraction? Definitely.

Heh. The "old" Al Sharpton. What's that saying about leopards and spots?

[sandnsea]

6. Hiring people like you

That's what he said the problem with racism amongst whites is. The way to break through that is by making it a priority to find and hire minorities and break down the stereotypes and thinking pattern. It apparently wasn't important enough for him to do that in 10 years, 12 years. Not once. It pretty much points to his own words being true and points to him knowing that because he's done it.

[Stuckinthebush]

7. No, he was playing "Gotcha" (n/t)

[ecstatic]

8. The question was fair game

Its not enough to simply say that VT is all white. The question at hand is whether Dean's admin. passed over qualified blacks when choosing cabinet members.

[ShimokitaJer]

18. Right... but that wasn't the question that was asked

If indeed there were evidence that Dean passed over qualified minority candidates in favor of white candidates, then this might be an issue. But that is not the question Sharpton asked. Sharpton was implying that a lack of minorities in Dean's cabinet (not his senior staff of administration, where there ARE minorities) was due to favoritism, when there is in fact no evidence for it. As far as I'm concerned, that assumption is just another form of racism, and Mosley-Braun was correct to criticize him for it.

[Clark Can WIN]

12. 12 years, 5 terms, ~~~~WHITES ONLY~~~~

Tokenism, no. Sharpton was highlighting hypocrisy. Sorry, your emperor has no clothes.

[markus]

14. How many gays on Gen. Clark's military staff?

Here we have an institution which has done more than any other in our society to over come institutional racism, sexism, etc. Good for the General. I don't think he gets any particular credit for that.

It would be interesting to know how many gay staff he had in the military. That would seem to me to be a fair question, if we're looking for extraordinary leadership.

At the end of the evening, it think it was Al saying: I'm gonna have block of delegates, and I don't like you.

[wtmusic]

15. good question

it has a nasty habit of spinning around and biting...

[Clark Can WIN]

16. <<<<<<<<<<< Look over there !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Funny I thought we were talking about Dean. If you have a problem with the subject at hand perhaps you should bring it up with the author of the post, or better yet, Dean.

[wtmusic]

20. If you have a problem with relating the subject to other candidates

then it's a flamefest; please don't post.

[Clark Can WIN]

33. just staying on topic

and I post where I please, thanks anyway.:hi:

[wtmusic]

47. A topic that you apparently find difficulty discussing

when it relates to Clark, that's all :hi:

[markus]

51. Um, I am the author of this post n/t

[_Jumper_]

17. Dean claims he believes in diveristy

If he doesn't believe in it he should stop saying that he does. If he does, he should explain why he failed to practice diversity as governor.

The main issue here is Dean's hypocrisy on race, not whether he is a racist.

[Padraig18]

22. No, he was playing the race card, and Carol Mosely-Braun caught him.

i LOVED her response, and the fact that NO ONE ELSE could have said what needed saying with the credibility she has! :thumbsup:

[bigtree]

30. Race card?

Every time we challenge someone on racial matters?

This is why I reject Gov. Dean's attempt to "move beyond race". We will move beyond race when it is completely addressed, and the inequities and abuses that involve race are remedied. I'm not folding my hand, at least until Gov. Dean shows his.(Nothing up his sleeve?)

[Padraig18]

34. Fine.

You should pick a more civil example that Al Sharpton's last night; even Carol Mosely-Braun slapped him down for it...or is she just an "Aunt Jemima"?. It was what it was, and we all know it.:eyes:

[bigtree]

35. Ambassador Braun was wrong

What's with the "Aunt Jemima" remark? How do you justify the use of that term in your argument. I never suggested that she should be associated with such a gross characterization. Good luck with that term in your public discourse.

[Padraig18]

37. Why was SHE wrong, and Sharpton right?

you fail to explain that...

[Clark Can WIN]

42. Why don't you answer the "aunt jemima" querry?

[Padraig18]

45. Why should I?

It's perfectly obvious what it means in context.

[bigtree]

46. Aunt Jemima

Nancy Green was born a slave in Montgomery County, Kentucky in 1834. Her given name was Nancy Green, but the world knew her as "Aunt Jemima." Although the famous Aunt Jemima recipe was not hers, she became the advertising world’s first living trademark. She was attractive, friendly, a good storyteller, and an excellent cook. Her ability to project her warm and appealing personality made her the ideal "Aunt Jemima."

In the fall of 1889, Rutt attended a vaudeville show where he heard a catchy tune called "Aunt Jemima," sung by a blackfaced performer, clad in apron and bandana headband. Soon after, the whole town was humming the song, and Rutt immediately decided that Aunt Jemima was the name for his pancake mix.

In 1893, the Davis Milling executives boldly decided to risk their entire future with an all-out promotion at the gigantic World’s Columbian Exposition in Chicago. They constructed the world’s largest flour barrel. "Aunt Jemima," in the person of Nancy Green, demonstrated the pancake mix. She kept up lively conversation with the crowd, while making and serving thousands of pancakes. She was such a sensation that special details of policemen had to be assigned to keep the crowds moving at the Aunt Jemima exhibition booth.

The Davis Company later ran into money problems and had to sell, but Nancy Green maintained her job until she was killed by a car on the streets of Chicago’s southside on September 24, 1923.

[bigtree]

48. "It's perfectly obvious what it means in context."

Race Card?

[Padraig18]

49. nice try.

Thanks for playing.

[markus]

52. But I'd still like an answer to the question

And the poster is using the Aunt Jemima reference to get out from under answering it.

[bigtree]

55. to·ken·ism

1. The policy of making only a perfunctory effort or symbolic gesture toward the accomplishment of a goal, such as racial integration. 2. The practice of hiring or appointing a token number of people from underrepresented groups in order to deflect criticism or comply with affirmative action rules.

Rev. Sharpton was not practicing tokenism in his admonition of Gov. Dean for failing to promote any blacks or hispanics to cabinet level positions in Vermont during his five terms. He did not indicate that he expected those positions to be perfunctory or symbolic, nor was he trying to deflect criticism or comply with affirmative action rules.

[Padraig18]

56. You can't be serious?

"Aunt Jemima" is the female counterpart to an "Uncle Tom". :eyes:

[bigtree]

58. I can just hear the Governor now

Parsing the relevance of Aunt Jemima, Uncle Tom to the exchange last night. You're sinking.

[Padraig18]

60. I'm not sinking at all.

Carol Mosely-Braun made the perfect response to Al Sharpton, and coming from a Black woman, it stung Al Sharpton just as bad as Al's ploy stung Dean. Hell, I saw the man's face when she said it, and his whole expression said "I'm busted!".

[bigtree]

43. Rev. Sharpton raised what I believe was a legitimate point

about the failure of Gov. Dean to appoint any African-Americans or Latinos to his cabinet in his five terms as governor of Vermont.

He believes that we need to go beyond the rhetoric and show where each of the candidates has actually lived up to their fine words about race. His calling out of Gov. Dean for neglecting to fight for minority cabinet members through five terms was meant to point up the lack of committment of Gov. Dean in this area.

Completely legitimate. Dean even said afterward that he would engage in a dialogue with Rev. Sharpton on that issue. I hope Gov. Dean will take the chance this time (if he is nominated), act on his convictions, and stick his neck out for minorities to be included in his cabinet. It was harder to do in Vermont. There it would have shown more character and conviction than in the arena of national politics where it is the norm. Still, he has a chance to redeem himself for his past remissness.

[beaconess]

44. Ain't that a bitch?

White folks can invoke race all they want. But the minute a black person says, "Uh, hold up a minute. I don't think that's quite right," WE get accused of "playing the race card."

I expect that crap from Republicans - that's their standard MO. But watching Democrats use this ploy is sickening. And the fact that it's coming from the "Dean talks tough about race, isn't he the NEATEST?" crowd makes it even more appalling.

[beaconess]

41. NO ONE could have said what she said?

Why is that?

[Padraig18]

50. What she said and be CREDIBLE saying it.

Context IS important.

[beaconess]

59. CMB is the ONLY person who could speak credibly about this issue?

Why is that?

[John_H]

25. Jeez, the Dean campaign is in full panic mode.

[Padraig18]

27. No, we're not.

Just a little indignation at being the victim of the race card ploy by Al Sharpton. your reaction would have been the same, if it had been your candidate, i'd wager.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

31. MY Candidate Wouldn't Have Been Vulnerable in the First Place

Because he is excellent on issues of race.

The reason Sharpton's attack stings so much is because it's rooted in truth.

DTH

[Padraig18]

36. Whatever.

Your candidate is PERFECT--- how silly of me to forget. :eyes:

[DoveTurnedHawk]

38. Let's Just Say He's a LOT More Perfect Than Howard Dean

Of course, that much should be obvious.

DTH

[Padraig18]

40. obvious to whom?

And he's hardly 'a lot more perfect'. My candidate can back up his record as a Democrat with a paper trail. Can yours?

[markus]

53. Gen. Clark gets a bye on this one

since he has worked his entire adult life in the one large institution in America that has, in large part, over come institutional racism.

[markus]

57. The Author Responds...

First, I do not represent the Dean Campaign, so I don't know that they're in "full panic mode". I can't imagine they're terribly pleased with how this entire exchange went.

Second, am I stiring up racial division with this post? I wasn't trying to. But I was royally pissed at Sharpton for tossing his meritless hand grenade into the debate.

Why do I think it was meritless? Let's see, in Al Sharpton's ideal world, African-American's would be entitled to .005 percent of Vermont's cabinet posts, which would reflect the community at large.

If the record of minority hiring generally stank in Vermont, then raise that issue. But demanding that Democrats have a prominently placed African American on their staff in all cases, regardless of any other circumstance, is tokenism.

Now, for some real fun, I think that Dean's original position (well played up today by some in other threads) on affirmative action is dead one. We should drop race-based affirmative action in favor of income based affirmative action.

This would blow the south (and parts of the midwest) wide-open, and potentially destroy the GOP's southern strategy.

I think I'm entitled to propose this as someone who (at age 11) was called a Nigger Lover by his friends for delivering literature for Moon Landrieu's 1969 mayor's race, when he was the first candidate in Louisiana to actively court the black vote; as someone who really cut his teeth on this issue around the time of Bakke; as someone who has walked neighborhoods where campaigns preferred black-only canvass teams (Treme in New Orleans, for example) because I lived there.

You may question my own bona fides as a "white, middle-class liberal" on this issue if you wish.

However, if one is unprepared to try the path I propose above (and to give up racial preferences for the sons and daugthers of the afluent black middle class in order to win back the South for the Dems) then we are simply on different wave lengths.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled World Whoopass Federation Deathmatch between DoveTurnedHawk and Padraig18.

Personally, I'm rooting for Paraig18, but that should be obvious from my original post.

[Constitution]

61. Sharpton was right. Dean's whole approach shows that

racism is very much a part of who he is - from his endorsement of slave flag to his handling of criminal justice in such a way as to deprive poor, blacks of their liberties. If he had his way, he'd deprive them of their lives. I read an excellent article on this that a twelve year old girl wrote called "Where Has the Compassion Gone?"

[Clark4VotingRights]

63. markus, please distinguish between "tokenism" & affirmative action.

Are they the same or different?
Are you for affirmative action or against?

Please and thanks.