Why didn't Gov. Dean look out of state for minorities for his cabinet?

[bigtree]

Is there a state law prohibiting him from accepting out of state applicants? If not, he could have chosen from his many black and Hispanic friends and associates around the country.

That minority of voters in Vermont had a even greater need for representation because their diminished voting clout may have left issues that directly affected them unaddressed.

[EXE619K]

1. So why didn't Governor Dean outsource from Rwanda?

eom




DEAN LEADS THE WAY!

[Jack_Dawson]

2. I'm a Clark supporter, but I think tokenism is silly

I'm sure if he lived in someplace other than lilly-white Vermont it would be a different story.

[bigtree]

25. It's not tokenism

to promote minorities to senior positions to bring a diversity of views and backgrounds to a normally opaque environment.

[Jack_Dawson]

34. I'm sure he didn't intentionally keep anyone down

Probably just hired the most qualified person, that's all.

[Snivi Yllom]

66. personally I think Vermonters should rep VT

and if he picked the best candidates in his opinion thats good enough for me.

[mikewriter]

42. I agree with tokenism

Dean probably could've found a few qualified and respected minorities to sit on his cabinent but I also don't think people need to put minorities in thir cabinents just to have a minority. I know I wouldn't want to be a token. Bush did that with Rice and Powell.

[TexasSissy]

62. Vermont has minorities. He could've had a cabinet member...

who was a minority. But going outside the state, like Sharpton suggested, is silly.

[Hep]

3. Vermonters don't even call Dean a Vermonter.

I'm not sure how they would view an attempt to go out of state just to hire a minority.

[sangh0]

4. Because

he didn't want to

[SaveElmer]

60. This is the DUMBEST thing I have ever heard

Jeez...what a jerk. Dean appointed Vermonters...to run Vermont...I think we should take him out back and beat the crap out of him. How could he do such a thing?

I think we could forgive him if he promises RIGHT NOW, to put at least one citizen from a country on every continent (except Antarctica of course) into his cabinet after he is elected.

[sangh0]

73. Really?

So do you think that DID want to appoint minority non-Vermonters to his cabinet but was sonehow stymied in that effort?

If Dean WANTED to appoint minority non-Vermonters to his cabinet, he could have, and he would have. He didn't, so it's obvious that he didn't WANT to. Even you admit it implicitely by denigrating the idea that Dean should have looked out of state. You argue that Dean should not have wanted to look out of state, which actually supports my assertion.

Conclusion: you are definitely familiar with dumb.

[Padraig18]

5. Why stop with out of state? Why not Tibet, or Angola, or Paraguay?

:eyes:

[KissMyAsscroft]

6. Or Iraq! Hell, show em how its done!!!!

LOL!

Damn, than he could pass anything he wanted!

"I got an Iraqi on my cabinet! Beat that!"

[Padraig18]

9. Maybe a Martian?

Even * doesn't have a Martian! :P

[bigtree]

8. Not a reasonable response

Many governors look out of state for qualified cabinet members.

[Padraig18]

10. If you want a reasonable answer, post a thread with a reasonable issue.

Simple.

[bigtree]

15. Padraig18

Just because you disagree with me?

C'mon. I wouldn't hop on your query just to bash your post as unreasonable.

[Padraig18]

18. Have at it.

I hope you enjoy managing flame wars.

[Cheswick2.0]

16. snappy answers

You question wasn't serious was it?

[bigtree]

24. Yeah Cheswick

What's your answer? Do they allow recruiting outside the state? Has it been done in Vermont? Did Gov. Dean ever recruit anyone from out of state to serve in his cabinet?

[spooky3]

40. did Dean TYPICALLY search outside for cabinet members?

What if he did it only when he could not find someone inside? What if he did it only for certain positions requiring specific, rare expertise? What if he did it only to try to find people from underrepresented groups?

Before we have an answer to these and other questions, it is unfair for anyone to attack Dean.

The question that was raised to him was unfair in a debate setting where there was inadequate opportunity to provide all the details that are needed to form an intelligent conclusion about whether his words are hollow.

[bigtree]

41. True

Many questions to be answered.

[Bombtrack]

7. DROOOOOPPPPP IIIIITTTTTTTT

There are so many wieghty arguments against nominating Dean but not this one.

[bigtree]

11. This one struck a chord with me.

I have many other arguments against Gov. Dean's candidacy.

[jsw_81]

48. This "struck a chord" with you???

Vermont is around 99 percent white. You're shocked that the governor's cabinet isn't a rainbow coalition?!?

[bigtree]

57. I'm dismayed that he couldn't muster the commitment to provide for

the representation of the minorities in his state (who by virtue of their small number could not muster the votes to elect a representative) by successfully recruiting an African American or a Latino to serve in his cabinet.

[w4rma]

13. No there aren't. IMHO. (n/t)

[chocolateeater]

12. Maybe because, if you are going to be a cabinet official

in a particular state, it would help if you actually lived there.

[bigtree]

21. It might be in the state's best interest

to hire someone with experience in a particular field, like health, that might address a concern like:

African Americans/Blacks, which make up about 1% of Vermont's population, account for 9% (39) of those living with HIV/AIDS in the state. Hispanics account for 4%

http://www.vtm4m.net/health-mnr/minor-info.html

[chocolateeater]

37. That might work if they couldn't find anyone

with the experience in the state already. I think they would have to exhaust all the in-state possibilities first, before looking out of state.

[Cheswick2.0]

14. What?

come on already.

[SahaleArm]

17. I see nobody is complaining when he brought in a few Wall Streeters...

to help jump start his governorship? I guess this is different.

[stickdog]

58. How many out of state Wall Streeters did Dean appoint to his

senior cabinet?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

19. BT I would only bark up that tree if minority voters in VT feel that not

having a person of their ethnicity DID negatively affect them. Ted Kennedy is WHITE and has done more for minorities than Colin Powell and Condoleeza Rice put together.

If there was evidence that Dean DELIBERATELY excluded minorities from consideration, that might be of issue, but simply not having an appointee in a relatively small state shouldn't be.

Let's say Dean were governor of California, for instance, where there are approximately 1400 positions the governor can appoint...again...it would be an issue.

[wtmusic]

23. and, the state is *much* more racially mixed

[izzie]

20. Because Vt is fill with white people and cows.

And cows are mad so can not serve.

[wtmusic]

22. Why can't Gov. Dean hire Vermonters? WHY, WHY, WHY?!

:nopity:

[Hoppin_Mad]

26. Why did he only look for humans and no shape-shifting reptilians !

[stickdog]

27. Great idea. Where would you suggest he import blacks from?

Consider that Dean's terms were only two years, and Vermonters tend to have this weird bias toward having other Vermonters appointed to the highest positions of their state government.

[bigtree]

30. you are the second poster who has mentioned this Vermonter bias

towards outsiders.

To go against that bias would take courage of conviction that African Americans and Hispanics should be represented in his government. That type of courage was not rare in the time in which he served as governor. He may have chosen not to pursue minorities for those positions, for whatever reason. (What reason does he give?) To do so would have elevated his rhetoric about healing racial divides (like between the powerful and the powerless) and given representation to the minorities in his state whose voting clout was nill because of their low numbers.

[stickdog]

33. That's bullshit. It would have been perceived as the tokenism that it

it would have been, just like when Republicans appoint blacks to do their dirty work. How do you perceive the appointments of Thomas or Powell or Rice?

And what about Latinos and Native Americans and Asian Americas and gays -- all of whom outnumber blacks in VT? How many of the 6 cabinet positions would each group have to have to satisfy you? (Note that Dean had one Asian American in a cabinet position.) Would just one be enough?

[bigtree]

43. I would be comfortable with 6 out of 6,

but that's not the issue.

What I am looking for in this candidate on this issue is: What was his level of commitment to appointing minorities to senior positions in his administration when he wasn't trolling for the votes of the nation. I think the absense of any blacks or Hispanics in any of his cabinet positions, in any of his terms as governor speaks to his level of commitment at that time.

[jsw_81]

50. Vermont is around 99 percent white

And you want the state cabinet to be 100 percent minority? :eyes:

[leyton]

47. Umm...

"and given representation to the minorities in his state whose voting clout was nill because of their low numbers. "

If minorities make up 2% of the population, why should their voting clout be more than 2%?

[TheDonkey]

28. not if he believes in Affirmative Action

which is to ensure that a workforce or school population is representative of the population. If there really are very few minorities in Vernmont then this scandal is pointless. Vernmont is about the size of my county and probably has the same racial makeup which is LOW and there are few people of color in the high ranking positions.

[nancyharris]

29. According to the newsday.com article on another thread

they CAN hire out of state minorities.

<snip> "Hoyt said one effort to recruit a black man to the Cabinet fell through because he would not be paid as much as he was making in Massachusetts. She could not recall the man's name or the position he was offered."

[MoonAndSun]

31. Dean tried to hire minorities....

<http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=310883>

[nancyharris]

36. Perhaps

<"Dean tried to hire minorities....">

Perhaps, but he didn't try too hard.

[bigtree]

32. Thank you nancyharris.

I had a notion that I wasn't too far out in the woods on this one. Where's the thread?

On edit:I saw the article. They tried but couldn't. There's results for ya' I still maintain that he fell short on this one. Others do also.

[spooky3]

35. Does anyone know what the pay/salary is for Vermont

cabinet posts?

Is it possible that you have to twist arms to get people to take the jobs? I don't mean to be condescending to Vermont, but in some states and cities with comparable populations, many people turn down these jobs because the pay is crummy relative to the responsibilities and to the alternatives that many qualified people have.

[bigtree]

44. Did Gov. Dean

have any influence on cabinet-level salaries? Was he a potted plant, or did he fight the legislature for what he believed in?

[w4rma]

38. Leaders: Dean Tried to Appoint Minorities

By ROSS SNEYD Associated Press Writer
January 12, 2004, 5:53 PM EST

MONTPELIER, Vt. - During more than a decade as Vermont governor, Howard Dean did not appoint any blacks or Hispanics to his Cabinet, but minority leaders say it was not for lack of trying in the nearly all-white state.

None of Dean's five cabinet secretaries or top commissioners was Hispanic or black during the more than 11 years he served in office, as he was forced to concede during a Democratic presidential debate Sunday.

Dean pointed out during the debate that he had hired as a senior staff member a black woman. He did not mention that Bonnie Aten-Johnson worked part time while keeping a job with the Burlington, Vt., schools.

Contending that recruiting minorities for high-level posts in state government is difficult in a state that is nearly 98 percent white, one black leader who met regularly with Dean praised his efforts as governor. He recalled turning down Dean's requests to serve in the administration.
…
http://www.newsday.com/news/politics/wire/sns-ap-democrats-minorities,0,1698744.story?coll=sns-ap-politics-headlines
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=310883
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=107487

[yellowcanine]

39. This is just stupid

Criticize Dean when he says something stupid. Criticize him if he doesn't detail how he would handle health care issues or foreign policy. But lay off nit picking about things like this. He was supposed to appoint people from other states to help him run Vermont? What bullshit. It is one thing for Republicans to act like this. Democrats ought to be a little more constructive in their criticism of someone who might be the choice of the majority of the party to run against Bush. And think about this. If this kind of crap hurts Dean how will that help him or any other candidate that gets the nomination against Bush?

[bigtree]

45. This board is not as influential as we might imagine

We are (mostly) voters first, and to a lesser extent, promoters of our candidates. We have an obligation to be truthful as possible, (we make mistakes) and candid in our exchanges because we are united in our opposition to the current administration. It does no good to paper over our differences, or to insinuate that any of our concerns are inherently divisive to some Democratic order. Our differences are our strength. Respect for our different views in our debate is what it will take to keep us united against Bush: Not submission to one particular doctrine, but equal representation of our views in our democratic process. That is what is occurring here at DU. In the end we will be stronger for listening to each other's concerns. In the end we will elect our nominee. Gov. Dean has made great strides towards that end. I wish him well. I still hold out hope for my candidate. In the end we will defeat Bush.

[yellowcanine]

61. Cheap shots don't help anyone except Bush

And that is what this is. I don't believe for a minute that anyone, including Al Sharpton, honestly thinks Dean had an obligation to go outside of Vermont to make sure he had a minority on his cabinet. That would truly have been pandering and tokenism. I also still fail to see how this advances the Democratic campaign against Bush. Yeah the DU forum doesn't matter but Sharpton raised this issue in a national forum. It is a cheap shot bullshit issue.

[bigtree]

65. cheap shots

bullshit issue etc.: You have a point of view. I don't have the temerity to call it bullshit. Yet you claim to want some kind of unity. Better to have a reasonable exchange where all views are respected enough not to be called bullshit or cheap shots.

The issue, by the way was in a newspaper. How long would it have lain unnoticed? Attacking Rev. Sharpton, and I, and others for amplifying the issue and stressing our concern is to belittle our our right to our view. Flame away. But don't speak in the same breath of the need for unity.

[jsw_81]

46. Why should he?

If there is a qualified white applicant who lives in Vermont and is familiar with Vermont government, why go out of your way to get a minority applicant from another state who will probably need all kinds of training and orientation? That kind of phony "diversity" is stupid.

Now if Dean had been governor of a state like Georgia or Michigan (both of which have large black populations), then you'd have a case. But Vermont is less than one percent black and you have no case.

[bigtree]

53. I think you could make the case

that the smaller numbers of minorities in Vermont had less voter clout than Ga. or Mich.; their vote was more diluted. And they would have a harder time with the representation of their particular concerns than those states with larger populations who could actually elect their own representatives.

[SidDithers]

71. Each voter has the same amount of clout - one vote...

whether they are a visible minority or not. Whether Dean effectively protected the interests of his minority constituents is a question which I'm sure Vermonters (Vermontarians? Vermontniks?) can answer. THAT should be the key issue, not this silly concern about the colour of his cabinet.

Sid

[spooky3]

49. I want to remind us that Asian-Americans and Native Americans

are also recognized underrepresented groups.

I also understand that more and more, the term "Latino/a" is preferred to "Hispanic" (per an article in the W. Post about 3 months ago).

[bigtree]

51. true

I need edumacating.

[TLM]

52. Because that would be silly...

why pass over someone in vermont who is perfectly qualified in order to go outside the state to find someone of color just to have a tken black guy inteh cabinet?


Dean's staff had lots of minorities and he hired more women than any otehr gov in vermont ever. He just did not have any blacks or latinos on his cabinet of 6 people.



If he had gone out of the state to find someone just becuase of their race, the same folks attacking him would be attacking him for pandering.

[stopbush]

54. Uhh, because maybe, he did?

See here: http://makeashorterlink.com/?H1DB42B07

Excerpts from the article:

" Hoyt said one effort to recruit a black man to the Cabinet fell through because he would not be paid as much as he was making in Massachusetts."

Oops, there's the attempt at an out-of-state recruitment.

"H. Lawrence McCrorey, a retired University of Vermont biophysics professor who advised Dean on a regular basis, said being willing to listen to minority viewpoints was at least as important as hiring blacks.

"The fact that people, white people, have made black appointments is in and of itself no reason to vote for them," said McCrorey, who is black.

"I know Howard Dean and I believe he is on very firm ground in the sense of civil rights," McCrorey said. "He understands justice. He understands civil rights."

Oops, there's a black guy who "advised Dean on a regular basis."

Time to give it up. This particular anti-Dean dog don't hunt.

[bigtree]

55. I've acknowledged

that he did. I take issue with how hard. I don't accept the word of his chief of staff, and an appointee.

I believe that the governor should have been able influence the salaries of his appointees, at the very least, fought for them in the legislature. Fought for the principle of diversity in his cabinet. For diversity of backgrounds and views. A perfectly Democratic notion.

I don't think he tried hard enough at that time. I thinks it reflects on his commitment at a time that he wasn't looking for votes.

[stopbush]

59. Welcome to the circular argument, step daddy to the circular

firing squad.

You wrote: "I believe that the governor should have been able influence the salaries of his appointees, at the very least, fought for them in the legislature. Fought for the principle of diversity in his cabinet. For diversity of backgrounds and views."

Why stop there? Why not demand that there be 20 cabinet positions so he could add lots of diversity? As far as salaries, I didn't know that Vermont was printing its own money back then. Don't ya think that maybe those salaries were set and Dean couldn't change them? Here's a governor looking to balance his budgets, cutting programs to do it and you truly expect him to RAISE the salaries of the executives, maybe even import them from out of state?

Look, it's simple: if you have problems with Dean's record in Vermont, his position papers set forth in running for the nomination, or even his media-imagined personality problems, an apologia from a Dean supporter won't change your mind, and buying into the farcical outcry that the Sharpton cheap shot has inspired is little more than piling on. If you already like and accept Dean or are thinking about supporting him, then this debunked-in-less-than-a-day-tempest-in-a-piss-pot is hardly the seismic event that should turn you against Dean.

Give it up.

[FredScuttle]

56. Damn that Dean!

Why couldn't he have taken a cue from Mary Shelley, build a lab in the state house and create his own Black Vermonter Superman to add to his cabinet? Why didn't he try harder?!!!

[SaveElmer]

63. Wrong board...please delete

[beaconess]

64. In other words, you're claiming that there was not one single black person

in Vermont qualified to serve in the governor's cabinet?

And you guys wonder why affirmative action is necessary? With attitudes like this still floating around, it should be the law of the land.

[9119495]

67. This just in

C-Span this morning had a story on where a black man said Dean tried to hire him to a position but the guy turned him down repetedly. The guy felt the Sharpton attack was unfair.

So move on to the next Dean thing now.

[bigtree]

69. This is a view of one individual

Others can differ, and do.

Do you think that the small number of blacks and Latinos in Vermont could have benefited from a member of their minority group at cabinet level?

Their small number of votes was diluted and there is a real question as to whether their particular concerns were addressed without a representative at the highest levels of Vermont state government. According to some complaints I have heard, there was dissension as to the Gov.'s record on race there. Sure he has defended himself, but there were some complaints. Disproportionate levels of AIDS infections among blacks and Latinos in the state for example.

Gov. Dean apparently sent signals to those around him that he wanted to fill a cabinet position with a minority (contrary to some who have argued that it is irrelevant. His chief of staff said he tried but couldn't. I think he didn't try hard enough.

Or perhaps, serving beside the governor didn't appeal to any of the minorities he approached.

I think this represents a failure by the governor to walk the talk about diversity by appointing a minority to his cabinet at a time when he didn't need national votes.

[9119495]

72. But the existance

of such a person calls into question Sharpton's assertion that the governor has a poor record because he was not inclusive. If he tried to include a minority person and was rejected and moved on to a qualified candidate of any race, then the issue should go away. If it doesn't, this is just tokenism.

Regarding AIDS stats: (1) lets see them, and (2) how do we blame the governor for the spread amongst these populations. AIDS has been on the rise everywhere in America for 20 years even though Clinton considered the issue serious and poured money into education programs. Wouldn't he have to be brought into this discussion? Where were our senate candidates while this epidemic was spreading? Our House members?

[bigtree]

76. my point

in raising the AIDS statistic was to demonstrate that there is a disproportional need in the black and Latino community.

My argument was that, in 11 years he didn't try hard enough. 4000 days.

[LuminousX]

68. Hiring non-Vermonters for state jobs in Vermont

I'm sure it was done but it would be bad practice when there is unemployment in the state.

Hopefully, the only time it was done was when there wasn't a qualified person in-state.

Really, I'm amused at this response. We should do a quick survey to determine how many minorities are on Governor's cabinets across the nation.

[bigtree]

70. I would be just as critical

of other governors. I suppose that it may have represented an act of courage to elevate an out of state minority member to cabinet level. Certainly Gov. Dean indicated that he thought it had enough merit that he did look out of state. What happened? Salary too low?
Did the governor exert enough leverage to accomplish this goal of his in the 11 years that he served? I don't think so.

But, his chief of staff put to rest the notion of whether the goal of including a minority in his cabinet was relevant by acknowledging that they had tried out of state. 4000 days to accomplish this, and he failed. In my view that is poor effort for a goal he admits was laudable. His claim to have tried to find recruits out of state and failed, puts to rest those arguments that he had to worry about local backlash. And it is a reflection on his effectiveness and commitment at a time when he didn't need national votes.

[maxanne]

74. how many threads

can be started on this subject? :eyes:

[RogueTrooper]

75. As many as the Clark supporters think they need

[maxanne]

77. thanks RT

you are absolutely correct!

[bigtree]

78. BTW

I am a supporter of Sen. Kerry. Not Gen. Clark. Not Rev. Sharpton.

And this point was relevant at the time I posted it. Most who responded thought it was ridiculous for Gov. Dean to look out of state. Later it was revealed to me that he did. Do you eschew all similar posts or just ones that feature this subject?

[maxanne]

79. I get tired

of the endless repetitiousness, bigtree. There were a boatload of threads on this subject. What happens so often here these days is a festival of bashing. It makes me weary. It is not productive, imo.

However, bashing and name calling are what's passing for campaigning these days, so perhaps I'm the one who is out of tune.

I also get tired of the way that northern New England states are regarded around here. For months I've read posts about how no one cares about small rural states with few electoral votes. Now there's a pious outpouring of concern for poor white Vermont, from people who have never been to New England, and don't know dick about it. It's silly and hypocritical - and it is only for one purpose.

The same claims being made about Vermont's government could be made about NH's. No one is bothering, though - who cares about the lack of diversity here? There's no Howard Dean to bash in NH.

[bigtree]

80. And of course

You don't see that calling my concerns about Governor Dean "bashing"
is . . ., bashing? I suspect that you would not call the defenses of the governor that I have taken patient time to respond to, "bashing". I can imagine someone characterizing a complaint you might have with my candidate as a bash, or repetitive. But I wouldn't expect you to leave your query undefended or unchallenged.

If you don't want to engage in dialogue on the issue at hand than you should move on. Calling me my query repetitive bashing does not respond to the concerns expressed in my posting.

On edit: My concern is with the commitment of the governor to appointing senior members to his cabinet at a time when he had no need to attract national support. I believs his lack of commitment there may be a reflection of his commitment to diversity, when it is difficult, in the future.

[John_H]

81. Many people, Dean and Clark supporters alike STILL, doen't get

the real problem. Haward Dean is not a racist, and I can't be convinced he is.

What astonishes me is that we're actually considering nominating someone who--for whatever excuse or valid reason--would have a worse minortiy appointment record than his republican opponent.

The excuses/reasons won't fly in an election. They won't fly with the state-run media (look what's happened already), or with the GOP spin machine, or, frankly, with many minority voters.

It doesn't matter who's right on the vermont argument. It doesn't matter if Howard Dean is the least racist person in America.

What matters is that this is yet another reason why Howard Dean has no chance of becoming President of the United States.