Vermont Budget 2.87B, European Command 13.7B

[catherineD]

Of course, Vermont has 3 times as many people in it as the European Command -- 600,000 vs. 200,000. But Vermont doesn't pay the salaries of everyone in it -- I think I read that there were about 8,500 people employed by Vermont at the site where I got the Vermont figure. I would guess that the legislature is more responsible for those 8,500 than the governor, and that the governor doesn't take a hands-on interest in Vermont employees needs for child-care, etc. Although, obviously, that is something that a governor or a state legislature might be concerned with. My impression during Dean's time in office was that these matters were of greater concern to his legislature than they were to Dean, who turned down some of his party's attempts to improve things for the disabled, etc., because of his interest in keeping taxes down and balancing the budget.

Vermont info:
http://www.peoplesoft.com/media/en/pdf/success/vermont_ss_0102.pdf

Here is where I got the numbers for the European Command (which Clark "commanded" from 1997-2000):

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/decani/message/75269

[Myra]

1. This is quite a stark contrast if true

Thank you catherineD.

[Scott Lee]

2. Dean drives blue car, Clark a green one.

More evidence that Dean is wrong for the job.

[Myra]

23. Geniuses pick green. :)

"Jack Byrnes: I'm just curious, did you pick the color of the car?
Greg Focker: Uh no, the guy at the window did, why?
Jack Byrnes: Well they say geniuses pick green.
Greg Focker: Oh.
Jack Byrnes: But you didn't pick it."

"Meet the Parents" (2000)

Joke! :evilgrin:

[Egnever]

3. You arent seriously trying to contend

that clark was in control of the military budget are you?

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bowens43]

9. Wow.

So in other words, Dean has a much better chance to pull in independent and centrist votesthe n Clark!! You're right! Thanks, I was thinking of switching my support to Clark but now it's obvious that that would be a HUGE mistake!

[ClintonTyree]

10. Soooooo true..............

how could I have been so blind? I repent, I'll now swallow the Clark Kool-Aid! :eyes:

[KittyWampus]

6. Clark Was Responsible For The Alottment of $

Making sure it covered what needed to get done.

He also wheddled, cajoled and whatallelse to get money from Congress for better Education etc.

He worked in the Office of Budget & Management.

Here's a quote from a fellow DU'er: regarding Clark & Budgeting-

"Like any executive, he and his staff developed that budget, defended it before Congress, probably wrangled with key legislators to keep in what he thought was most important, and was accountable for how the funds were spent. I daresay a bigger budget than
the state of Vermont has ever seen."

[sfecap]

13. He was?

Chapter 9: Common-funded Resources : NATO Budgets and Financial Management


Financial Control

Although the Head of the respective NATO body is ultimately responsible for the correct preparation and execution of the budget, the administrative support for this task is largely entrusted to his Financial Controller. The appointment of this official is the prerogative of the North Atlantic Council, although the latter may delegate this task to the relevant finance committee. Each Financial Controller has final recourse to the finance committee in the case of persistent disagreement with the Head of the respective NATO body regarding an intended transaction.

The Financial Controller is charged with ensuring that all aspects of execution of the budget conform to expenditure authorisations, to any special controls imposed by the finance committee and to the Financial Regulations and their associated implementing rules and procedures. He may also, in response to internal auditing, install such additional controls and procedures as he deems necessary for maintaining accountability. A major task of the Financial Controller is to ensure that the funds required to finance execution of the budget are periodically called up from contributing member countries in accordance with their agreed cost shares and in amounts calculated to avoid the accumulation of excessive cash holdings in the international treasury. The outcome of all these activities is reflected in annual financial statements prepared and presented for verification to the International Board of Auditors.

The International Board of Auditors is composed of representatives of national audit institutions. It operates under a Charter guaranteeing its independence, granted by the North Atlantic Council to which it reports directly. It has powers to audit the accounts of all NATO bodies, including the Production and Logistics Organisations, and the NATO Security Investment Programme. Its mandate includes not only financial but also performance audits. Its role is thus not confined to safeguarding accountability but extends to a review of management practices in general.

The figures given in Table 3 represent payments actually made or to be made during the course of the fiscal year. They are based on the definition of defence expenditures used by NATO. In view of the differences between this and national definitions, the figures shown may diverge considerably from those which are quoted by national authorities or given in national budgets. For countries providing military assistance, this is included in the expenditures figures. For countries receiving assistance, figures do not include the value of items received. Expenditures for research and development are included in equipment expenditures and pensions paid to retirees in personnel expenditures.

France is a member of the Alliance without belonging to the integrated military structure and does not participate in collective force planning. The defence data relating to France are indicative only.

Iceland has no armed forces. The Czech Republic, Hungary and Poland joined the Alliance in 1999.

Source: Financial and Economic Data Relating to NATO Defence, M-DPC-2(2000)107 published on 5.12.2000.


Gee, I didn't notice the part where the General runs the budget...

[KittyWampus]

18. He Was Also Commander In The United States Army

[dsc]

38. No he wasn't

Shelton was.

[catherineD]

44. Budget is for European Command, not NATO

In addition to being Supreme Allied Commander of NATO, Clark was Commander-In-Chief of our European Command. That is the budget I am referring to.

[Scott Lee]

24. And now for the facts....

According to NATO stats and operations, the disbursment and accounting of funds used by the organization is overseen by a Financial Controller - who at that time was NOT Wesley Clark.

Care to try again?

[BootinUp]

35. disbursment and accounting is not budgeting... DUH n/t

[Scott Lee]

39. Wes Clark didn't do that either. DUH

[BootinUp]

34. You aren't seriously trying to contend

That he didn't play a role in the budget for his command are you?

[ClintonTyree]

4. Well............

that does it, I'm switching to Clark.
So you're saying that Clark was directly involved with everyone of those tax dollars and how they were spent? He was directly involved with each and every soldier under his command?
He had no help whatsoever in the day to day operations, he did it all himself, no subordinates?
I like Clark, don't get me wrong, but some of these comparisons are really scraping the bottom of the barrel.

[mikehiggins]

7. Poor comparison?

Governors do not involve themselves with each and every citizen in their state. They implement policy and rely on their subordinates, just like a military commander.

The comparison is more apt than it might appear at first.

[ClintonTyree]

12. Precisely.....................

so the assertion that Clark's performance distances Dean's becuuse of a bigger budget makes absolutely no sense.

[thinkahead]

31. You just made an interesting point

Howard Dean, more than other Governers (or maybe even generals) was able to connect more with the populace of his state since it was so small. Plus, being a doctor, he got to hear more and more of the people's concerns. I remember hearing him talk about it being nice being the Governor and running into people you know at the grocery store.

Perhaps this is one of the reasons Dean is able to connect so well with an audience - he has more experience connecting with people on a human rather than executive level. He has taken that connection ability across the country in a national campaign, and I think may be one reason he is doing so well. He is not so insulated that he doesn't understand the plight of the common man - and has a sincere desire to affect change (and an extremely successful record to back up his ability to do so) for those whom he has heard all across the country.

Something our party leadership has forgotten - it's base.

[Myra]

46. Howard Dean...was able to connect since his state was so small?

So, by that logic the Governor of Rhode Island would make the best president?!

[Frodo]

8. AAAANNNDDD

He had to negotiate with a voting body with co-equal power in the command on how to spend those dollars? He could veto their decisions but they could overide him? He had to face election from those troops every couple/few years (meaning he had to make the RIGHT decisions as commander, but also SELL those decisions to others)?

[KittyWampus]

11. Where Did Poster Begin To Imply Clark Alone Did All That?

But then again, the same can be said about Dean....

I thank the fellow DU'er for giving us some perspective regarding Clark & Dean's priorities and responsibilities.

[ClintonTyree]

14. The implication being.............

that Dean ONLY had around 8,500 or so state employees compared to the hundreds of thousands that Clark had. The implication being that Dean's Governorship of Vermont is vastly inferior to Clark's command becuase Clark had a bigger budget and more people.

[bowens43]

16. Providing prospective?

Looks like more like a desperate Clark supporter trying to smear Dean with irrelevancies.

[KittyWampus]

19. Desperate Clark Supporter? Smear?

Talk about projecting....

[Philosophy]

15. I see - so if the USA becomes a military dictatorship...

...then Clark would be the better choice to manage the budget.

[bowens43]

17. That's probably the most important issue concerning Clark.

How can a man who has spent 30 years under the influence of military indoctrination function in a civilian leadership role? I don't believe that he can. Electing Clark would be huge mistake. We need to move away from the further militarization of country not towards it.

[KittyWampus]

20. Well, Clark Proposed Cutting The Pentagon Budget

but Howard Dean is hunky dory with the giant sucking hole that is the Pentagon Budget... isn't he.

Of course, if we DID cut Pentagon Funding we wouldn't have to take back that Middle Class tax cut now eould we?

[Scott Lee]

26. Then how would Clark pay for his much loved School of the Americas?

I mean, if he cuts the Pentagon budget? Can't have it both ways.

[Tom Rinaldo]

21. Consider Watching Clark on CSPAN at 6:30 EST tonight

If you do, tell me if you still have the same question afterwoulds. I began my own anti war organizing activities in 1967 and never stopped being active in various anti war efforts. However I am not a pacifist nor do I feel that the United States should unilaterally disarm. I have actually watched Clark on a number of occaisions and seen him in person on a few. I've read a lot by him and about him. I am not expecting everyone to go to the same lengths to study Clark as an individual, as opposed to as stereotype, as I have, but I would appreciate it if those who are willing to make strong indicting comments against him at least had the fairness of mind to watch Clark once do a Town Hall meeting for example. Maybe you have, if not tonight would be an excellent oportunity. I understand from reports on the earlier broadcast that he said some things you might find suprising.

[maddezmom]

22. thanks for reminding me

going to listen again. :)

[Tom Rinaldo]

28. Oooops, turns out Clark is now on at 8:00 E.S.T.

Don't know if CSPAN changed their schedule, which they are know to do, or if the information I was given was wrong all along. Anyway sorry for the false lead, but I was watching CSPAN and they now say 8:00 p.m. I had to forst sit through watching Liebermans's daughter greeting people at a breafast place to find out when Clark would really come on lol.

[bowens43]

41. I have watched the man , numerous times.

I don't believe a word he says. His past belies his present.

[Renew Deal]

25. He has been in a civilian leadership role.

He was the chair of several boards. His income skyrocketed. I think he would be just fine.

[bowens43]

42. How is that a leadership role?

His income qualifies him to be president? Kerry's worth more isn't he? You should back Kerry.

[Capn Sunshine]

27. Vermont Depleted Uranium deaths 0

European Command 345 , over 16,000 cases pending.

[KittyWampus]

29. What Is Howard Dean's Stand On Depleted Uranium?

Just wondering...

[Scott Lee]

40. Why, I'll bet he's against it!

What do you think?

[BootinUp]

36. Capn...do you have anything to back that up with?

I think the issue has been discussed and I don't recall seeing anything resembling scientific evidence to back up your post.

[WillyT]

30. Y-A-W-N ...

:hurts:

[TLM]

32. Your impression is wrong...

The claim that Dean turned down attempts to improve things for the disabled is BS. Because it does not also note that while Dean dd reject soem plans, he supported others that accomplished the same or better results for less money.

For example the nursing home issue, Dean cut funds to nursing homes. WHen the bashers tell it, that's the only part you hear. You do not hear that Dean also jacked up funding fo in home care of the elderly and instituted expanded medical and drug coverage.

[maxanne]

33. how many of Clark's

former comrades in arms have endorsed his candidacy?

[Auntie Bush]

37. Plenty! Watch C-SPAN tonight 8:00 and

you will see some of his military friends standing next to him.

[KittyWampus]

43. Clark On His Dealing with "Domestic Issues" While In Command

As far as specific duties go, here's what Clark says in the 60 min II interview:

People often say, "Well, you know, in the military, you could give these orders, and how would you be capable--" But in the military at the top, you really aren't giving orders. You're really working collaboratively, collegially, politically. You're persuading people to want to do what you want them to do, and you're doing it not just on military and diplomatic issues, but you're doing it on a whole range of what we call quality of life issues.

In Europe, I had 44,000 school children in the command, and I was responsible for their schooling, K-12. And we had schools in Britain and Spain and Germany and Italy and Turkey. And we had curriculum challenges. We had local control issues. We had parents who didn't get along and so forth.

So, we changed the currency. We increased the amount of local control. I encouraged commanders to give their soldiers and airmen off when the child was in a teacher/student conference. I believed the parent should be there. And you know, in the United States Armed Forces, we can make that happen. And we did.

DAN RATHER: So, what you paint is a picture of a Commanding General as you were as well, as kind of a mayor of a town.

GEN. WESLEY CLARK: A big town. In this case, it was, you know, spread out all over. But I started that way. I mean we started working on schooling issues early in-- in my military career. I remember we were in Germany and there was a PTA meeting and my wife was very concerned about the school, and she spoke up and she really started to work the schooling issues.

And that's when we began to be aware that, you know ,you have responsibilities as a parent and as a leader to speak up, because the higher rank you have, the more your responsibility to speak out and help others.

And we always took that very, very seriously. So I had schooling issues. I had hospital issues. I had housing issues. I had spouse abuse, child abuse, suicide prevention, quality of life, spousal jobs. And when I was the commander at Fort Irwin (PH), I had the engineers on post, the commissaries, the post exchange, the chapels, the movie theatre.

I was driving down the road one day. It was a Saturday afternoon. I think we were gonna go shopping, and my wife said, "Your engineers, they still haven't fixed this pothole."

Now-- and she was right. They were my engineers. I had to call up a colonel and say, "Well, why is that pothole not--" You know I didn't do it immediately, but we got the pothole fixed and we got the commissary stocked with the right kinds of goods. And we fixed it-- We had town hall meetings where people could raise their concerns and-- and address the issues that affected 'em. And I was a mayor.

So, that's what leadership the military's all about. It's the one community where when you're in a position of authority you have 24-hour responsibilities for how the people who are associated with you live. People don't go home at night to their own communities. They're on your community. And you're responsible for in most cases every aspect of their health, well-being and comfort.

[catherineD]

45. Thanks. And I repeat, European Command not NATO.

So stop with the paranoia, from those other replies, by people who could have easily checked my links before posting NATO documents erroneously.