What it will take for new Dean supporters to be kept in Party

[mouse7]

If Dean doesn't get the nomination, it's going to be important how Dean lost if the person who does wins the nomination is going to keep the new Dean voters in the party come November.

The nomination will need to have been "won" by another nominee. They will have to perform better in the debates. They will have to gather a huge support base. They will have to win on an issue vs. issue contest.

If Dean goes down in a "bloody heap" from attack politics that create rubbish non-issues in the media, then the Dean supporters will bolt and not come back for years.

Whoever gets the nomination must seem to see Bush as a greater threat than other nominees. They will have to spend most of their time attacking the neo-cons, not other Dems.

The best obvious example I can give at the moment of a campaign that would keep Dean supporters if it won while having divergent opinions would be the Edwards campaign. John Edwards has run an issue-focused campaign, and if he wins, Edwards will have won the nomination himself outright. Edwards has not focused on destroying fellow Democrats.

I don't care what has happened in the past or what you think of Dean personally. You cannot win the Presidency in the fall without the Dean supporters. If you want Dean supporters to participate and have a chance in November, you're going to have to win them over. You can't backstab their leadership out of the way.

[mmonk]

1. I don't see Edwards

close to Dean on the issues (maybe I'm wrong). Edwards is a gentleman though.

[chimpymustgo]

10. Mouse, tune into C-SPAN NOW - You will fall in love with Edwards

He's wonderful. And nice.

[mmonk]

17. I know him well

I have voted for him, he's my senator. I think he likes him looking at his post.

[mouse7]

24. I know Edwards pretty well.

I'm for the most part ABB. I'll be behind whoever wins... though I'll be dragging myself to the polls for a couple of them.

Edwards has run an excellent campaign. I could work real hard for him if he's the nominee.

[mouse7]

20. Edwards isn't close on issues, but he won't beat his rivals bloody

If Edwards wins, it looks like he's going to win honorably. People can tranfer loyalty easily if they lose without watching their leaders shattered by attack politics.

[mmonk]

true

unless there's a real sticking issue they can't get by.

[hellhathnofury]

44. Edwards has been nice to our guy.

That goes a long way on the blog, which alot of people lurk.

[Walt Starr]

54. I think Edwards could win most of the new voters

Simply because he hasn't been involved in the pecker measuring contests.

[hellhathnofury]

58. Correct. Who's won the pecker measuring contest in your opinion?

My pick is Sharpton.

[Democrats unite]

2. Dean supporters have a choice...

If Dean does not get the Nomination. Walk away and have another 4 years of Bush, or stay & fight the asshole (Bush). Also if they leave because Dean doesn't get the nomination I wouldn't consider them Democrats to begin with.

[Capn Sunshine]

7. The same being true of Clark supporters

I'm sure.

Will you work for Dean this November?

[Democrats unite]

12. If he is the Nominee, yes.

Can we say the same about you if Clark is the Nominee?

[Walt Starr]

8. Now you've hit the problem on the head

most of those who WILL walk away don't consider themselves Democrats either. They registered as Democrats in order to get Dean nominated so they could vote for him in November, but that's as much party loyalty as they have. Their loyalty lies with Dean as their choice and they consider themselves Americans over any party label. They feel no loyalty to the other Dems and damn sure won't support any candidate that engaged in the smear politics.

And without those numbers, at best the Democrat will be in a race close enough for the bastards to steal it again.

[Democrats unite]

13. That doesn't say much for Dean being a Democrat does it?

eom

[Walt Starr]

19. It says a hell of a lot about him being an American

And yes, it also says a hell of a lot about him being a Democrat. He's rebuilding the party with new blood. He's bringing new voters and disaffected voters into the Democratic Party, extending our voter base. This could make a huge difference in the congressional races. These people are ripe to become loyal Democrats, but if the rest of the party continues to piss on the guy that fired them up, they'll simply walk away and sit politics out again.

Failing to recognize this contribution, which could turn around the miserable failures of the party power elitists in the past three years, says a lot about people who would claim to be Democrats, IMO.

[Democrats unite]

21. I say let them walk

eom

[Walt Starr]

27. That sounds a bit familiar, you must like to lose

B-)

[Democrats unite]

28. You think? Clinton enjoyed My vote...

I think he would disagree with your statement. Graham has enjoyed my vote since I have been old enough to vote He's been in public office my whole adult life.

[Tinoire]

36. Yeah but you see- Thrice bitten, thrice shy

Never ever would I vote for Clinton or even Gore again.

I'm looking for real Democrat this time. If the DLC can't even see me halfway (and that means more than by slapping a few D feathers on someone) then they can KMA.

Oh, and I'm not even a Dean supporter. I range from A-Z with the candidates looking at the whole but I'm afraid I must skip a few of golden-boys in between because they're just too... corporate-friendly.

The DLC can put the gun down- it's not having any effect anymore.

[hellhathnofury]

45. I say write off the South. Both statements are stupid,

[mmonk]

65. write off the south

please:) :bounce:

[hellhathnofury]

68. Write off our new voters. :)

[mouse7]

46. Then YOU are the one that isn't stopping Bush, not them

It sound like you're more like Al From, more interested in being in charge of the party, even if the Party has to get hammered for you to be in charge of the party.

[JVS]

106. Dean's Democratic credentials are very solid

unlike Clark's

[bearfartinthewoods]

121. thank goodness there are more than dean and clark to choose from,

if those were my only options, i'd be extremely despressed.

[PAMod]

15. You are correct - but the Democratic Party has a choice, too.

We can either embrace these new voters, or we can turn them aside, maybe forever.

We will need these people in '04 and beyond.

Mistreatment of Dean is mistreatment of these political newcomers.

To treat this as a threat or view these people with distrust is a mistake.

[IndianaGreen]

16. The poster is talking about independents that have voted Dem before

or used to vote Dem but became disgruntled with the similarities between the two parties.

If you want to piss independents off, go ahead, but I must remind you that over a third of the electorate has no allegiance to either party.

[mouse7]

53. No... there are many that have never participated before

Completely new process participants... you think the "Punks for Dean" woman has been a politico all her life? Not bloody likely.

No... there is a very high percentage of newbies here. Many who have come in through word of mouth, or geeks that ran into all the Dean stuff on the net.

These people must be treated with care. Remember how idealistic you were in your first campaign? Remember how much your first loss hurt?

[bearfartinthewoods]

119. they are lost any way

if he isn't nominated...they're lost, according to some
if he is nominated and then loses, they will be crushed and lost.

even if he does win, goes to DC and can't take back the country,
can't make the cockroaches scatter, they are disenchanted and never vote again.

sooooo...your point is?

[Zinnola]

57. I registered Dem for Dean

as did my hubby. If Dean does not win we will vote for the DEM candidate but will not work for them to win.

[jonnyblitz]

112. so did I for the first time. I always voted DEM but wasn't one,

eom

[mouse7]

Don't you get it. Many of them AREN'T Democrats.

They aren't republicans or independents either. They aren't anything. They are participating in their first campaigns.

Let me promise you something. If all you offer these first time participants is "my way or the highway", they'll head down the highway. Quickly. They have no party loyalty, because they haven't been in politics long enough to have party loyalty. They see no difference between Liebernam, Daschle, and Bush.

So... you better decide whether YOU want to beat Bush bad enough to put away the bad attitude.

[Walt Starr]

41. I think the egos are too tightly wound to let most Democrats see this

rationally.

It's a question of numbers. The Republicans and Democrats have basically been fighting over the same numbers for years because half of this country is too pissed off at both parties to vote.

You and I both know, Dean has been taking away from that half that used to not give a fuck and is adding those numbers directly to the Democratic bottom line. The only hitch is, they'll have no party loyalty if Dean isn't there. Dean is why they are getting involved now and Dean is all that will keep most of them there, regardless of any show of unity from Dean should he lose. They want Dean or they will simply go back to their lives as usual before getting fired up by Dean.

Some people like pretty uniforms or Senate records more than having the numbers to destroy the Republicans, though.

[Printer70]

50. You're advising lockstep

...and liberals don't do that. We're the ones who think for ourselves- remember? Follow your conscience. I would rather a Republican than a psuedo-Republican who makes the Democratic party a pathetic mimicry of the Republican party.

[TexasPatriot]

3. hrm

ok - working from your premise that Dean isnt the nominee, I think Dean would make a great DNC chair - and he could see that a lot of his people gained a voice in the party.

[hellhathnofury]

18. Is that an offer of the Vice Presidency?

Or am I just hearing things.

[Walt Starr]

22. That won't cut it with these people

I know two dozen. Fifteen have never voted. Five used to vote but haven't in years. Four used to be solid Republicans.

If Dean is not the nominee, maybe four or five would still vote. If the wrong person is chosen, count on some of the Republicans voting for Bush.

[Demobrat]

4. If Dean goes down in a "bloody heap"

this country deserves George W. Bush.

[hellhathnofury]

5. I would vote for the nominee regardless.

We have brought alot of new people into the process and they aren't as loyal to the party. The best solution to keeping all these new people in is to make sure the attacks are valid and substance base and enough with this electability crap,it's filtering down to the GE voter.

Edwards is my 2, he's the best bet if we get murdered.

[mmonk]

6. I can't speak for them

but challenging people who make bad policy decisions when voting with republicans might be a start (such as the Iraq thing and the deficits).

[doubles]

9. I stay home if Dean loses.... nt

[IndianaGreen]

11. Oppose the war!

If you fail to oppose the war, they will go elsewhere or stay home. ABB won't wash with people that see marginal differences between the two major parties. Need I remind you that Democrats voted for PATRIOT and for IWR.

[w13rd0]

14. raising my hand...

...although I must admit the I actually registered as a Democrat a bit before I came down solidly for Dean. But I registered Dem to be part of the primary process. I still have hope that we can make a difference. Far too many, if not presented with a clear choice like Dean v Bush, will see the 2004 much as many saw 2000, as tweedledee vs tweedledum. They won't have the time to do the research, or sift through the spin on mass media.

[isbister]

23. What it will take for new Dean supporters to be kept in Party

Depends a little on Dean. I think if he loses, he will be faithful to the party, no matter what.

Some followers might not praticipate but I a large majority will vote for the person opposed to bush. I think most understand what bush has done to America and realize the danger this country will be in if he gets another four years. If they don't understand the difference between Anyone But Bush and bush, you and I had better help them understand (should the need arise).

[hellhathnofury]

40. That's not the issue. They know he is a Democrat. But...

they are hear for Dean, not Kerry, Lieberman or anyother.

I think there is a strong ABB, but you'll still lose say 30% of our new voters.

[isbister]

70. Re:

I think that is very high and you are underestimating the Dean supporters. Sure they may have a notion that all of the other candidates represent the status quo but in they end they will be forced to ask themselves about the alternative.

Remember for all the disagreeing, there is a lot our candidates agree upon. bush, on the other hand, appears to just do as he's told

[hellhathnofury]

73. When was the last time you met the average American?

Their political apathy is astounding, I think it's about right.

[Eloriel]

111. I do too -- and may even be on the conservative side

And I do think there's some credibility to the notion of HOW things go down on the way to Dean not getting the nomination IF that happens.

Let's face it. The new people Dean has been drawing in were apathetic non-voters for a reason: turned off to politics.

Trippi explained it best, I think, in his response to Gephardt's campaign manager re ridiculous allegations from that camp:

Dear Steve Murphy,

I am saddened by your letter today because sleazy tactics like yours are exactly the reason that people have stopped participating in the political process.

Let me be clear, your allegation is ridiculous. The 3,500 volunteers who have pledged to come to Iowa by caucus time are people who believe in a better America and a stronger democracy. Many are first time voters who have chosen to reengage in the political process because they understand that government has stopped working for the people. They know that Howard Dean is a different type of politician, and if we asked them to participate in the activities you allege, they would get in their cars and drive home.

We understand that the grassroots enthusiasm this campaign has generated and the over 3,500 volunteers who are canvassing in Iowa this month is threatening to Dick Gephardt. But that is no excuse for you to try to make Iowans question the motives of these idealistic Americans who are paying their own way to Iowa to canvass. In doing so, you are practicing precisely the type of politics that these volunteers are dedicating their time and effort to stopping.

People are tired of this type of campaigning, which is why we've been energizing voters across the country with our message of hope and of a better democracy. As Governor Dean often says, it's not enough for us to change presidents -- we need to change the way politics work.

Frankly, Steve, baseless political allegations like the one in your letter lead me to believe more and more that your campaign is not the one to make this change.

These allegations are not just an insult to Howard Dean and me, but they are an insult to all of the new people we're bringing into the process. Instead of these despicable and desperate attacks, you should start running the kind of campaign that inspires and energizes thousands of new voters so much that they want to come to Iowa and campaign for your candidate!

I assure you these allegations are false, and if my word is not good enough for you and Dick Gephardt, for whom I served in 1988 as deputy campaign manager, then it is with a particularly heavy heart that I send this letter.

Sincerely,

Joe Trippi
campaign manager

[mouse7]

43. Not if Dean is destroyed by attack politics

They do NOT understand the differences between Lieberman, Daschle, and Bush. They see Bush, and they see people who don't do anything to fight against Bush. That's not enough of a difference for them to be involved.

If Dean goes down in a "bloody heap" from the standard negative attack campaign, they will walk, not look back, and take their votes and money with them.

[isbister]

76. I disagree

Some will but many won't.

There are major differences between bush and Lieberman, Daschle, etc and it is inaccurate to say they they won't do anything to fight him and his handler's policies.

Do they fight every issue, do they fight enough? Not for me. But they do fight at times.

This bush administration is insane, in my humble opinion. Because of this, any Democratic nominee would be a better President. Because of this, and I believe many Dean supporters do or will understand this, another 4 more years of bush and our country is in trouble. He saw 537 votes as a mandate and if he wins there will be nothing to hold him back. Nothing, no matter how much the minority party or the people whine at him... might as well just give him a crown and the keys to the tank.

[mouse7]

83. Play "my way or the highway", then wait to see who shows to vote

You'll be waiting to the sound of crickets. And Bush will be President.

Do you want to be "right" or do you want to win in November. Many Kerry supporters are far more concerned about being "right" than they are concerned about winning in November.

[goodhue]

25. "Dean supporters will bolt and not come back for years"

Where exactly will they be going? Just curious . . .

[Walt Starr]

29. The ones I know who will bolt will be going

back to a life as a disaffected former voter.

Your choice, add the numbers or not. Dean is giving the party a much needed transfusion of voters. Apparently, many Democrats would prefer to bleed that transfusion away and fade into obscurity as a permanent minority party.

[goodhue]

35. Are there really lots of Dean supporters who are recent nonvoters?

That's great but I find it somewhat surprising. Did these folks of whom you speak not vote in 2000?

[hellhathnofury]

38. about half the nation did not vote in 2000.

They will stay home probably.

[goodhue]

39. certainly

but what evidence that they are now Dean supporters? ancedotal is fine. all you nonvoters for Dean please identify yourself?

[hellhathnofury]

42. Do you really think we do polling on this? My god.

[goodhue]

55. polls?

where did that come from. merely asking Dean-supporting DUers who were recent nonvoters to indentify themselves here

[hellhathnofury]

59. This is DU, not meet the new voters.

There are already some transfers in this thread.

[Walt Starr]

60. ROFLMAO!!!!!

Not ONE of the new voters I know would even THINK of coming here, let alone post here!

Hell, 3/4 of them I won't even tell about this place. They'd freak out on GD:04P so bad they might walk without Dena losing!

These are average non-plotical people. DU would be WAY over the top for them, especially for the four Republicans!

[goodhue]

63. sorry

Didn't mean to provoke such a strong reaction. Not having spent anytime with Dean supporters I was unaware that there was so many recent nonvoters in their midst. Figured most of them probably voted for Gore. Live and learn.

[Eloriel]

113. The "data" comes from hundreds and hundreds

of appearances by Dean, hundreds of conference calls at House Parties where Dean would ask the audience: how many of you haven't been involved at all in politics in the last 10 years, or never?

Typically, 50% and more raise their hands.

Eloriel

[Walt Starr]

51. Well, let me tell you this much

This phenomenon, which every Dean supporter I know has expressed similar experiences, will never show up in any poll of "likely voters"

Likely voters for the purpose of polling are voters that have voted in recent elections.

These folks haven't. That's why I don't sweat the polls becaause I know Dean's numbers are higher because of these folks.

[Walt Starr]

47. I know of two dozen non-Democratic Dean supporters

They all recently registered as Democrats. Fifteen have never voted in their lives. Five used to vote years ago. Four are former Republicans.

The Republicans all voted for Bush in 2000. They say they will vote for Dean or just give up on it, but two of them are terrified of Clark and I'm afraid they would vote for Bush again if Clark were nominated, although they have not said this.

The other twenty sat out 2000 and will sit out 2004 if Dean is not the guy. I figure four or five of them may get fired up enough to vote for the Dem after a show of unity from Dean shoud he lose, but most of them despise Clark and Kerry.

This is what Dean was talking about when he said some of his voters are not transferable. These are the very people he is taking about and this is a nationwide phenomenon.

This is also why I believe Dean is the only candidate in a position to defeat Bush. I think any other candidate would end up in another 2000 scenario where it will be close enough for them to steal it again.

[goodhue]

56. thanks

that's the kind of ancedotal evidence i had in mind

[mouse7]

75. They'll go back to "Survivor", the NFL, and Grand Theft Auto

They'll go back to turning off politics completely because they didn't see any difference between the GOP and Democratic Party before, and they;ll go right back to that belief if the one guy that made them feel like thing might change gets slaghtered by negative politics.

They didn't believe anyone can make a difference before. They'll go right back to believing it again, only even more bitter.

[maxanne]

26. I'd be interested to see

this same question posed to Clark supporters. A number of the ones I see around here don't seem to espouse traditional Democratic Party values. Will these people stay with the party, or are they just DINO's for this campaign?

[mmonk]

30. I'm dyed in the wool dem

[Democrats unite]

31. You can start by reading post # 12.

eom

[Turkw]

66. Dem bones, dem bones, I've got Dem bones. Been a registered voting Dem.

My entire adult life. If the Democrats had a truly horrible candidate, I used to consider Independents or Republicans, but not since Newt G.

There are a few Republicans I like and respect, but my hatred of the zealots that control the party makes it impossible for me to vote Republican. I like Nadar but what he is doing, at this juncture, is not helping.

I used to vote for individuals, with party affiliation a VERY heavy factor. Now I'd vote for Dean's cat if it were registered Dem and against a Republican, especially Bush.

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

67. I support Clark.

And I have voted for the democratic presidential nominee in every election since 1984. I will vote for whchever Democrat wins the nomination in 2004. Though I may be less enthusiastic about some.

[dave29]

92. Wow, you've been voting Democratic longer than Clark

;)

[neverforget]

32. A free Volvo and sandals?

:evilgrin:

No seriously, this is one thing i really like about Dean: he's been able to bring the disenchanted to the process. Should Dean lose the primary, the hard part will be to appeal to them to stay involved in democracy because that is how it works. It matters who is President and who is in Congress. Sitting at home and bitching about how terrible politicians are doesn't solve anything unless you get out and vote. In order to affect change, you have to do something.

[meow mix]

33. dean will have to tell them what to do

im sure dean will see the light and tell them to do the right thing.

then and only then will they act, after he gives his commands.

[Demobrat]

34. Don't count on it.

I'm a supporter, not a soldier. You must be thinking of another candidate.

[meow mix]

48. certainly not clark camp

since he's the last one to enter, it then must consist of free thinking agents.

[Walt Starr]

37. Dean would asolutely back the nominee if he were to lose

It won't matter much to these folks. They'll sit 2004 out like they have so many elections in the past.

[hellhathnofury]

49. There must be something in the Kool Aid.

[mouse7]

77. If Dean is abused, it won't matter what Dean says

Dean can try to be a loyal Dem. Work 24/7 for the Party. But it's expected that almost any candidate will do that. It's expected. They will still see Dean as having been abused along the road by people that aren't enough different than Bush for them to bother getting involved with.

[Printer70]

52. Sorry, I won't goose-step to Lieberman, Clark

I support Democrats, not Republicans-in-rehab or wannabe-Republicans. Anyone with a commitment to liberal principles would rather remake the party first, before the nation. If we nominate a wannabe-Republican, we'll LOSE the general AND lose the party.

[hellhathnofury]

61. I think this quote is relevant to the thread...

"When given a choice between a Republican and a Democrat pretending to be a Republican, voters will invariably choose the real thing. --
Harry Truman"

[ThirdWheelLegend]

107. Actually I find that amazingly relevant, but from a different angle...

NAFTA, death penalty, Patriot Act, illegal occupation of Iraq, Universal Health INSURANCE(and the 10 million or so who are not covered), Pentagon Budget...

I then repeat your quote

"When given a choice between a Republican and a Democrat pretending to be a Republican, voters will invariably choose the real thing. --
Harry Truman"

TWL

[hellhathnofury]

108. That's nice. Find reality.

[beaconess]

62. Can someone explain to me why

Dean supporters' disappointment and disillusionment with the Democratic Party is seen as a problem that requires other Democrats to do whatever it takes to reach out and assuage their concerns while African-Americans' problems with the Democratic Party or any particular candidate are treated with a dismissive reminder that "they know that Bush is no good for them so they'll have to support the Democratic nominee?"

[Turkw]

69. The party needs to offer a vision that everyone can find something worth

voting for!

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

72. Good point

:toast: :yourock:

[mouse7]

79. I said it in 84 and 88 to Dems about Rainbow Coalition

In 84 and 88, Jesse Jackson brought a massive influx of new Dems to the party. I said then we had to treat them with respect and decency then. The Party regulars threw crumbs at them. They left.

Where are they now? At home. I don't blame them either. They got treated like crap.

The Dean influx is the new influx that is here now. I say again that we must treat these new participants with respect and decency. If this new influx of Dean supporters has crumbs thrown at them, they will go home too.

[bitchkitty]

85. This is a discussion board -

It consists of things called forums. People post all sorts of topics in the forums, and then people join in and post messages about the topic. This topic is about new Dean voters, and that's why we're talking about it. Is that simple enough for you?

[beaconess]

114. Yes, your point is simple enough. Irrelevant, but simple

[bain_sidhe]

105. Bingo. Been asking myself

the same thing.

[SaveElmer]

64. A sincere prayer that those supporters don't read this forum too often

<eom>

[DjTj]

71. I think Edwards has good chance at wooing Dean supporters...

...if they just listened to him speak once.

If anybody watched the town hall meeting on C-Span tonight, Edwards repeatedly appealed to the crowd saying that he needed their help to change America, that they needed to break the hold of lobbyists in Washington, and he even called his campaign a "movement."

...I think anybody who has been listening to Dean would be very receptive to Edwards' rhetoric.

[hellhathnofury]

74. I think for some it will be...

Edwards or Dean. I'm not sure if they'd vote for anyone else.

Why of why did Edwards have to vote for the war. Then it'd all be transferable.

[mouse7]

81. I still think Clark could get some Dean people

There hasn't been open meanness between Gov. Dean and Gen. Clark. There have been some staff squabbles, but they happen. It's what happens at the top of the ticket that matters. Clark will have to make some pledges regarding getting the UN involved in Iraq. That could cover any potential squabbles regarding when Clark was against the IWR.

Lieberman? Forget it. Gephardt? No way. Not with the way he was so crucial in getting the IWR resolution passed. Kerry? No Way. Way to many attacks from Kerry.

I've already said Edwards can keep a lot of Dean people, too. Something more concrete regarding a pledge to get the UN Peacekeepers into Iraq would hasten this process. Also... for Gawds Sake get Hootie off the front page of Edwards website.

[mitchum]

78. This wouldn't be a sniveling threat, would it?

[hellhathnofury]

80. Define threat. Sniveling is subjective.

I never did give anybody hell. I just told the truth and they thought it was hell. -Harry S Truman

[mouse7]

82. *smack* I'm not even a Dean supporter

What would I threaten with? My looks?

[TexasSissy]

84. Yes, grasshopper. The Dems can win w/o Dean supporters,

though it would be extremely helpful to have them. However, Dean cannot win without the moderate and mainstream Dems. There just aren't enough Dean supporters, and a majority of independents (notoriously right leaning) won't go for him.

But moderate Dems. appeal to most Dems, as well as a lot of independents, and even some moderate Republicans (in times such as these).

So yes, Grasshopper. The nominee can win w/o Dean. If he wants to start a new party, you all go on ahead and start one. This is a matter of the direction of the Democratic Party. It needs changes, but it's not going to become Dean's type of party, if the moderates can help it. And the moderates constitute the majority of the party. If the platform changes to become radical, too far left, angry in nature, etc., the moderates will become independents, and the Dem. Party will dry up.

We, the moderates, were the silent majority. But we speaking up now. But most importantly, we vote. The problem with the Wash. D.C. leadership has been that there has been little or no leadership. Their viewpoints and positions were good, but they didn't actually act on those positions many times. The positions don't need to be changed. The leaders need to be changed.

[adadem]

86. Exactly. Well put.

I would like to add that this is absolutely not the time to be shaking up the Democratic party. Should have happened after 02 but it didn't so we need to focus on what we have and deal with the party issues after we get shrub out.

[hellhathnofury]

87. This is exactly the time to shake the Democratic party.

I guarantee Mr. MacAulliffe has now heard the bases opinion, for the first time in his life.

This would be unwatchable if there was no Dean.

[mouse7]

93. Can't shake up party. Look what a success formula it has

Certainly wouldn't want to break that winning streak the Democratic Party has.

/sarcasm off

If you DON'T shake up the party, you will have 4 more years of Bush, nearly a million Dean voters that never participate in the political process again, and Bush appointing all those Supreme Court judges, and a GOP Congress voting for everything Bush wants to do.

[hellhathnofury]

88. I'm guessing your for Clark?

So we're going to change the leadership by electing a DLC-Clinton era handled candidate? I remember 2002, never again.

[Printer70]

91. If it comes to that....

>The nominee can win w/o Dean.

I think you may eat your words. There will be a serious movement to look outside the party by Dean supporters and your words just add fuel to that fire. The centrist wannabe-Republicans can fall on their own sword.

[mouse7]

95. Yeah... just like the staggering Democratic victories of 2002

You execute the strategy you are suggesting and you will have more the same staggering victories of 2002.

[Adjoran]

89. If they leave, it's disgraceful

Dean's the frontrunner. The others can't just "attack the neocons" if they are serious about winning.

I don't see Dean complaining. And I'll bet he's on the platform in Boston endorsing the winner if he loses.

I know this is the first political campaign for many of his supporters. They aren't used to the rough and tumble. But if they think Kerry or Gephardt or Sharpton are too tough on Dean, wait until they get a taste of what Karl Rove has in store.

Better toughen those skins, folks.

I have to ask the people who threaten to leave the party why they are supporting Dean in the first place? Are they sincerely opposed to the repubs controlling every branch of our government? Do they really want change?

The Democratic Party will be weaker in 2004 if they leave. We'll almost surely lose this year without them. But in the long run, it is better to have those in the party who are truly committed to a new vision for America, and who can put the national and party interests above their personal emotions.

[hellhathnofury]

90. These are dis-illusioned voters,

why should they regain faith when nothings changed?

Your assumptions are disgraceful. Welcome to America!

[mikehiggins]

94. For too many of these "New Turks" it really is Dean or nobody

It is very likely that, one way or another, Dean will not be the Democratic nominee. Not guaranteed, of course, but very likely.

And then the rest of us will have to deal with this problem you are bringing forward. The sad fact is that many of us, who have been in politics for many, many years, believe that the people you discuss will drop away no matter how Dean loses the baton. They are here to support Dean, and if they lose him they will walk.

Not every Dean supporter, of course, but the people you are talking about for certain. Their repeated chants of Clark not being a democrat rings hollow to many of us because they are even less of a "democrat" than the person they attack. They are here because a very shrewd politician, aided and abetted by a very slick political consultant, have led them to believe that somehow or other a five-term right-centrist governor of a minuscule North Eastern state has somehow blossomed into a populist champion of truth, justice and some other stuff. They just don't "grok" that this "new thing" of Internet grass roots is just the flavor of this political cycle, just as the DLC itself was in its day.

Well, I have to tell you, mouse, that most of the experienced pols do not expect them to stay, as much as they are welcome. If Dean loses the nomination, they will bolt just like several of them on DU have threatened. Eventually, though, even if Dean wins the nod, and even more certainly if he beats Bush (which will only happen with the avid support of all those other folks now out working for other candidates) these "Dean-supporters" will disappear in short order as they learn from personal experience how shallow Dean's commitment to this brave new world will prove once he enters the Oval Office.

Some will be able to adjust, of course, and some of them will find themselves ten or fifteen years down the road in Armani suits and making the big bucks as an insider lobbyist. Most, however, will have gone home and stewed over how the system corrupted even their white knight.

And they won't be missed. They are the mirror image of the right wing dittoheads and will not bring anything of value to the party in the long run.

[hellhathnofury]

96. Oh Lord...

I prefer optimism to the failed status quo.

Don't write off our supporters and certainly don't marginalize them, you'll hear nothing but crickets when they're gone.

[mikehiggins]

102. You use Harry Truman as your avatar?

How would he react to "Democrats" who would only support the party if it chose their leader as the party's nominee?

Truman came up through the party system and grew through it to become a great statesman and leader. Even so, he was willing to step aside for Eisenhower if Ike would run for President on the Democratic line.

Look at what we've come to.

I am not "marginalising" anyone.

"By their words shall you know them."

Harry would prefer crickets to fair weather friends.

[hellhathnofury]

104. What would Harry Truman say to Madison Aves "New American Patriotism?"

Here's how Harry would respond:

"Actions are the seed of fate deeds grow into destiny."

"Carry the battle to them. Don't let them bring it to you. Put them on the defensive and don't ever apologize for anything."

"I have found the best way to give advice to your children is to find out what they want and then advise them to do it."

"It's plain hokum. If you can't convince 'em, confuse 'em. It's an old political trick. But this time it won't work. "

"Never kick a fresh turd on a hot day."

-Harry would say that the opportunity has presented itself, damn if I care whether they're fairwhether Democrats are not. Seize the moment and don't look back.

[JVS]

110. Harry would prefer to win than to reject voters for not being pure.

purity is for candidates to worry about, not the voters

[eileen_d]

97. Vote extortion thread #4080

You know, if Dean supporters aren't people who realize how important it is to get Bush out of office, I don't give a tinker's damn about their votes. Same for supporters of any other candidate.

If President George W. Bush is not enough to motivate a person to vote for a Democrat in 2004, I don't know what the hell is!

Edit: Changed "Democrats" to "people" as it more accurately reflects my opinion.

[hellhathnofury]

98. Meet Apathetic America!

They're citizens you know too, do you not bare any responsibility to get them to the polls?

[eileen_d]

99. I don't think people who will vote for Dean and ONLY Dean

qualify as "apathetic Americans," first off. If their interest in politics in the 21st century has been piqued by Dean, that's great. But if it stops at Dean, that's myopia, plain and simple.

Secondly, the whole idea that Dean is the ONLY key to unlock the magic vault of first-time voters is completely laughable. Is America like Sleeping Beauty waiting for Howard Dean's kiss or something? Let's say Dean is president in 2004 and even 2008 - will all these folks stop voting and go back to sleep in 2012?

I'm laughing my tight white ass off. GD 2004 is COMEDY!

[hellhathnofury]

101. Well Dean is the only one who seems to be getting them out...

"Is America like Sleeping Beauty waiting for Howard Dean's kiss or something?"

-Look at our fundraising, it sure as hell is to first time donors.

"Let's say Dean is president in 2004 and even 2008 - will all these folks stop voting and go back to sleep in 2012?"

-Depends who we nominate

[Printer70]

109. "Myopia"

Without Dean, people know they're going to get "more of the same". People see a reformer who's had results- he's introduced civil unions, not just talked about it. He's broaded health coverage- not just talked about it. Without Dean, they have every right to go back not caring about politics, because they're going to get a DLC poll-tested candidate who will continue the same policies of militarism (ie: I'd "probably" support IWR, whoops my consultant says no now) and corporatism (ie: anti re-regulation).

[mouse7]

100. The problem isn't Bush, the problem is how similar Dems might be

Some potential nominees don't have that problem. Kucinich obviously would be able to rally Dean supporters if lightning struck and his campaign got traction.

The problem is if the nominee is one that voted for neo-con policies as often as not and executed a "scorched earth" policy to get the nomination.

If you want the people to "realize" that haven't learned how bad Bush is, you have to be respectful of them enough not to have them turn off to you before you even make the appeal. If you go out with a "to hell with them if they walk" attitude, it is you that will have created the atmosphere of a self-fulfilling prophesy and you that will have ensured they indeed do walk.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

103. Clark Has Taken the High Road, and If He Beats Dean, It Will Be Fair

Moreover, I believe Clark will be practically forced to pick Dean as his running mate in order to heal the divides in the party.

DTH

[elixir]

115. Clark has avoided direct hits on Dean

This will work in his favor if he keeps from criticizing Dean directly. I agree, one of my biggest concerns is that Dean supporters will not support another candidate. Of course, this will not change my support of Wesley Clark. I hope that Dean will push ABB if the time comes.

[TrueAmerican]

117. Not "if" but "when"

It will come.

[CWebster]

118. No

it won't.

[JNelson6563]

116. Involve them as the Dean campaign has

Pride in ownership. :-)

Julie

[sangh0]

120. Answer: Give them what Dean has been giving them

Lies