What's been the recent reaction to Clark on DU?

[ShaneGR]

I haven't been reading DU for the last month, a combination of traveling and taking a break.

What was the reaction to Clark's big fundraising figure? Overall, how has Clark been received on DU over the last month? I know Iowa is a big thing right now, but Clark (Rightly so) didn't campaign there.

Thoughts?

[Terwilliger]

1. it's been in the other forum

certainly, you haven't lost your way :shrug:

[Stephanie]

2. We have a new GD just for Primaries

You've been away - check the lobby. Clark Threads Aplenty

[liberalnurse]

3. Oh well, it's not pretty.

Its a war zone. ..... It's equal to the division of America during the Civil War.....

It puts *bush in a safe space it it continues.

[meow mix]

4. clark wins all DU polls

ty for asking =)

[maxanne]

5. Why do you

suppose that is, meow mix?

[meow mix]

7. because he is so dang awsome

and the best democrat candidate ever to exist, EVER.

at least thats the impression im under =)

[liberalnurse]

11. Not really, the Dean supporters have been run off

by professional campaign embeds for the other camps ....In my opinion. Many, many long time DU'ers have gone.

I miss the days of respect and discussion when *bush was the enemy.

[KittyWampus]

12. Run Away! Run Away! Run Away!

[liberalnurse]

13. Are you threatening me?

[KittyWampus]

19. It's From Monty Python's Holy Grail

see the picture I posted? It's the Trojan Rabbit being hurled outside the Castle walls.

[QC]

62. ROFLMAO!!!!!

[retyred]

81. Run away, run away....to live another day.... to run away again

Monte Python


retyred in fla
“Good-Night Paul, Wherever You Are”
So I read this book

[meow mix]

15. oh, yes its the conspiracy - sorry

clarks stormtroopers perform operation to capture dem website.
details at ten.

[liberalnurse]

18. Your reporting is quite accurate in summation.

Thank you for sharing such a true reflection.

[edzontar]

55. This is true--Clark supporters made a rush on the place with bashing

Threads...they were quickly joined by a cadre of freepers in disguise..the place has been a bloodbath, and very many of the best and longest term people have either left, been banned, or are taking a vacation.

This is not the place you knew.

[TrueAmerican]

59. I throw the bullshit flag

run off? If Dean supporters are that easy rattled, than Dean won't win. Good news for the General!

[edzontar]

63. Actually, the "run-off" term is accurate

But we can't go into detail about that here....

[JVS]

98. They've left for more productive political pursuits

As much fun as the flaming is there are better ways to reach voters

[bearfartinthewoods]

86. don't forget how skinner had to cancel a poll because they caught

the clark team screwing with it.

[JNelson6563]

54. I got two words for ya

Sock
puppets

;-)

[jonnyblitz]

47. DU polls get freeped via Clark blogs n/t

[Padraig18]

49. A Clark supporter admitted posting every new poll on the Clark blog.

He admitted doing so here just the other day. No other campaign appears to do so.

[jumptheshadow]

50. You have to be a paid member to vote

eom

[HFishbine]

53. Not

Just registered.

[jumptheshadow]

75. Sorry if I was wrong

I contributed so early on that I came to the conclusion that the polls and the contributions were related.

However, there are a few things that don't compute here:

1) Howard Dean commmands a greater percentage of the votes in DU polls than he gets in national polls. Doesn't that mean that there is a larger percentage of Dean supporters on DU than there are in the general Democratic electorate? That, in turn, would indicate that many of the Dean poll voters originally came here via other Internet sites. Correct? So what's the problem here? In fact, don't we want enthusiastic people to come to Democratic websites during the primary campaign?

2) Dean's supporters often tout the campaign's Internet roots. Yet they are clearly losing the battle of the polls here (and the war of words, as well, as evidenced by the increasingly hysterical and non-substantive tone of their posts).

3) Dean is front-runner in a crowded field. He has not yet snared a majority of Democratic primary voters. And he and his supporters have alienated several the supporters of a few other candidates. So wouldn't it make sense that the folks from non-Clark campaigns who have been turned off by Dean would vote for the only other viable candidate in the DU polls?

[kerry-is-my-prez]

90. What's wrong with that? Am I not getting something?

n/t

[0rganism]

6. mixed, as with all the candidates

Clark has impressive credentials and, being a military man, is a bit of a rare bird to land in the Democratic party tent. On the other hand, some of his past actions and connections don't lend themselves to immediate trust from the leftward-leaning.

He's definitely in the top tier of candidates at DU, as well as elsewhere.

I think that's about as objective a summary as you're likely to get. You might also try a search of the 2004 primary forum for Clark threads. There's a LOT of tension between Dean loyalists and Clark loyalists, in particular.

[PAMod]

8. Clark supporters now outnumber everybody else.

But it is mostly new people that have made the difference.

[Tweed]

9. People are inspired by him

Gotta feel it

[JVS]

21. Yeah, he inspires me to see who the Greens are running

[lib 4 all]

33. hear hear!

[Printer70]

40. Same

I can't believe how the DLC and their media allies have manipulated this primary elections. It just sickens me. The powerful do call the shots. If we pull this out, it will be blood sweat and tears while Clark supports sip lattes at Starbucks and let the DLC machine churn this one out. Nader's looking better every day.

[jumptheshadow]

51. If Dean is electable

Then he'll win the primary. If his grassroots support is as strong as you say it is, then he will prevail.

[bitchkitty]

32. Yes, all kinds of new, brand new

people supporting Clark.

Edited for civility

[DoveTurnedHawk]

34. How Would You Know About Brand New?

You weren't even sure what a PM was.

There are a ton of old-timer Clark supporters here, and just as many Dean supporter extremists as there are Clark supporter extremists.

DTH

[bitchkitty]

37. Actually,

I wasn't sure you knew what it meant, since you were broadcasting a personal conversation and using it against the person who had PM'd you. Nice Net etiquette, bubba.

If the shoe fits, wear it. Otherwise, don't get defensive.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

42. Nope

There is no netiquette rule about describing the general substance of an e-mail exchange. The netiquette rule is about quoting the thing in whole cloth.

Nice try, though!

DTH

[bitchkitty]

69. Oh, I see -

but it's okay to use a private conversation against another, now I get it. Nice world you live in.

If I get PM'd by someone I don't care for or agree with, I ignore it. I certainly wouldn't use it in an attempt to embarrass them. But that's just me.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

97. If You Say One Thing To Me Privately and Another Thing to Me Publicly

Yes, I'm going to call you on it. I value honesty.

Don't like it? Don't post public responses to me that are inconsistent with prior PMs. Or don't send me PMs at all, it's no skin off my nose.

DTH

[funky_bug]

93. Clark brings new people - you say that like it's a bad thing

I'd call that energizing... oh no, wait... that's what Dean's been doing.

[bowens43]

45. Or frightened by him.

An empty uniform with thirty years of military indoctrination. A man who would seek military to solutions to political problems. With Clark in the oval office it would be out of the frying pan into the fire. Inspired? Hardly. We don't need another republican president.

[jonnyblitz]

48. SOA apologists are hardly inspiring. n/t

[edzontar]

56. I have been so repelled by Clark's so-called "supporters"

That he went from second to last on my list this week.

[QC]

57. Join the club, baby!

I used to like Dean quite a lot, but the antics of the whining little babies who seem to make up an awful lot of his support here have made me loathe the man.

[edzontar]

64. No comparison is possible..Dean supporters may be passionate

Even obnoxious.

But for the most part, they have not been disruptors.

What happened is that the terms of play changed and no one warned us.

We thought it was still the Democratic Underground.

[QC]

68. No, your complaint is that it's not Dean Underground

despite the best efforts of some people to run everyone else off.

Don't try to lay this trip on me that DU was Rainbow Brite's Happy Meadow until the Clark people came along, because I've been here long enough to know better. I remember--and it hasn't been very long ago--when the more fanatical Dean supporters here did their damnedest to run off the Kerry and Kucinich supporters. Kucinich has no chance of winning and Kerry was a warmonger, as the argument went, and these people kept it up 24/7. That's when the nastiness here truly began, not this past October.

[CWebster]

71. That is BS

I even offerred to kick in a contribution for a Kerry supporter during the last DU fund drive and there is NO WAY on earth that I would ever feel the common bond of political allegiance and good will with the Clark camp.

[edzontar]

73. Until "Stop Dean," i assumed that the debate would be civil

And for weeks and months after that, i have (mostly) tried to keep things civil and to proclaim, over and over, my general support for all the candidates, except Lieberman, of course.

I sometimes tried to use humor to lighten the discussion, but nothing worked.

And while i may have expressed disappointment in Kerry, for exampe, I certainly never called him--or Clark--for that matter--a warmonger or anything like.

Finally, I stand by my observation that the Clark influx brought a new and essentially divisive element to the board--a "one candidate only" mentality that has provided a very useful cover for the moles.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

94. Most Clark people also support Kerry, Edwards. Don't see the one candidate

thing. IMO - there are more Dean people who are "one candidate only." In our DU poll here a large chunk of Dean supporters said they would refuse to vote for the Dem candidiate. Almost ALL the Clark people said they'd vote for the Dem candidate.

[BootinUp]

66. Yea

theres been repellant posts from both sides and from other candidates supporters. Why do you go around repeating time and time again this mantra about Clark supporters. Instead point out specific posts that are out-of-line or offensive, or whatever, I think you will see that many more Clark supporters will back you up. Thats the real test. Will a supporter call another poster on on the slime when its supposedly in favor of his/her candidate.

[Name removed]

67. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BootinUp]

72. Your tactic is just as bad though.

hence my appeal for reasonableness.

[edzontar]

74. What "tactic" is that?

I am just observing a verifiable fact.

[BootinUp]

77. your dubious claim that

Clark supporters are the "main" culprits is hardly verifiable. Try looking through someone else's eyes. Or point out the offenders specifically as I originally suggested. I will join you in objection.

[Name removed]

79. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BootinUp]

82. Yes

both of those guys were obnoxious. But at least one is tombstoned. Don't know about the other guy, he seemed to have quite an imagination. :)

[edzontar]

83. deleted--by me!

nt

[BootinUp]

84. self-deleted

[edzontar]

85. Maybe we should conduct this in PM

nt

[Hoppin_Mad]

10. New Clark supporters are swarming DU like flies to dung -eom-

[Dr Fate]

17. And then there are DUers like me, who have been here 3 years...

...

[Rowdyboy]

22. 22 months and counting

We're not all new

[The Magistrate]

23. And Me, Doctor

Two years and counting. And others who are senior to myself as well.

[QC]

24. Over two years here.

Longer than most of the people who have taken to accusing so many of us of being PNAC plants and agents of the BFEE and Repuke Lite and the like.

[edzontar]

58. Maybe so--but both the influx, the disruption, and the exodus

Are undeniable facts.

Much of this was a ripple effect that was provoked by the infamous "Stop Dean Movement" threads of November-December.

I wonder what you guys thought of those dishonest, divisive threads?

[bitchkitty]

70. Hmmmm...no one answers you.

Why is that? Could it be that what you say cannot be denied?

[edzontar]

76. You are correct...there is no possible honest denial

Of this fact.

[The Magistrate]

87. Well, Mr. Zontar

Perhaps it is merely the toughening of long participation in our knife-fights down in the Israel v. Palestine dungeon, but in the candidate discussion there does not seem to me any discernable difference in the conduct of the various persons supporting different candidates. There are sensible fellows and dispensable rabble among the supporters of each.

What drew me into open advocacy for Gen. Clark was the scurrilous nature of attacks against him, largely placed by people who have little interest in electoral success for the Democratic Party, and a continual refrain directed against several long-time friends of mine in this place, that they were Republican moles or worse.

One of the poor features of this forum is the tendency of some to assert those who disagree with them are agents of some foreign force directed in conspiracy to "take over" the place. It is a sloppy and self-aggrandizing view. Better to come to terms with the fact that people disagree with the views one holds, just as in personal life some people like you and some do not.

This place is not particularly reflective of even the common run of Democratic Party supporters, it is worth remembering. It concentrates disproportionately an aggregate of persons with a serious interest and knowledgeability in politics, and of persons with radical views. The rate of support for Rep. Kucinich in polls here is one indicator of that. The high degree of support for Gen. Clark represents, in my view, the stand taken by those who are pragmatic in their analysis of the situation, and the pattern of attack against him represents the stand of persons valuing radical commitment above all else.

[Tatiana]

29. Two years+ checking in....

By the time I received the "Clark is a Republican plant" memo, it was too late ;)

[DoveTurnedHawk]

35. Well Over Two Years for Me (eom)

DTH

[Piperay]

43. Yes, me too

even though that contradicts standard 'wisdom' among some here. :argh:

[cally]

92. Another two plus year DU Clark supporter

Not only Dean supporters left. Many have left due to the animosity and hatefulness of many of these threads.

[bicentennial_baby]

61. 1 year anniversary here

Checkin in!

[Shakespeare]

30. Wow...you just equated DU with dung.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

What's funny about that is that I know that wasn't your intended point. But thanks for playing!

LOTS of "original DUers" back Clark, btw. Careful with that broad brush of yours.

[Shakespeare]

31. Wow...you just equated DU with dung.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

What's funny about that is that I know that wasn't your intended point. But thanks for playing!

LOTS of "original DUers" back Clark, btw. Careful with that broad brush of yours.

[NV1962]

44. Dungfly reports: ready for duty Sir!

Love you too.

[QC]

14. The usual.

Hysteria, nasty attacks on his supporters, guilt by association, etc.

All in a day's work at DU lately.

[TexasSissy]

16. I've noticed that Clark is being hit harder now with neg. posts

I guess since he is now perceived as a threat. I have also noticed that Clark has more supporters in this forum now than before.

Things are pretty quiet on Clark right now, since the IA caucuses are next week, and Clark's not campaigning there. We can expect to hear a great deal about Clark when things move on to NH.

[windansea]

20. attack threads

that mainly bounce off the armor like a nerf cannon

maybe cuz Clark is rising in the polls

NH

Dean 35%
Clark 26%
Kerry 13%
Lieberman 9%
Edwards 6%
Gephardt 3%
Other 5%
Undecided 2%

568 certain voters. 1/9-1/11/04 MOE +/- 4.2

AZ

Clark 39%
Dean 32%
Lieberman 8%
Gephardt 4%
Other 7%
Undecided 4%

412 certain voters. 1/9-1/11/04 MOE +/- 4.9

MO

Gephardt 37%
Dean 19%
Clark 15%
Kerry 6%
Lieberman 5%
Edwards 5%
Other 6%
Undecided 6%

461 certain voters. 1/9-1/11/04 MOE +/- 4.7

[revcarol]

25. There has been some real meat in the Clark "attacks:"

School of the Americas, Axciom, Stephens Group, Davos meeting to discuss oil...
And some attacks like "he's not a Democrat" had teflon.

Use your search function to look at them. Interesting.

[mikehiggins]

26. I've been away for awhile myself and to a degree it was because

of the insanity that is running rampant between the supporters of the various candidates.

Generally, there are folks who think Clark is the political equivalent of the anti-Christ (and who post incredible amounts of research that amount to little less than a total obsession with the man) and the usual suspects who think Dean couldn't win a game of checkers with a blind man.

Then there are the ABB stalwarts who would support a ham sandwich against Bush and a scattering of NBD folks (Nobody But Dean) types who periodically threaten the party with widescale defections if the good Doctor isn't the nominee.

This should pretty much run on and on and on until the end of the primaries, unless (God forbid) nobody wins enough delegates to end the race before the convention, in which case the charges and insults will continue apace.

Generally speaking, I'd advise you to just visit the other neighborhoods here on DU and let the campaign board and this one rest until all the dust settles. Right now its all heat and no light, and I doubt it'll get any better anytime soon.

[The Magistrate]

39. Here Is One Vote For The Ham Sandwich, Mr. Higgens!

May this delectable concoction of smoked pork and bread count on your support as well, Sir?

[BootinUp]

41. aye Sir, it has my support :)

[mouse7]

27. Clark himself gets a fair amount of respect...

...some of his supporters earn less respect through their own efforts.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

28. Thinly Disguised, Pants-Wetting Fear and Hands-Wringing Anxiety

Just like when he entered, there is a torrent of anti-Clark filth from people who are now afraid that he is indeed a threat to Dean.

DTH

[bowens43]

46. We don't think him a threat to Dean

we think him a threat to our country and to our party. He is a republican who has spent the last 30 years training to provide military solutions to political problems. He is a man who believes that bush and his evil minions are 'good people' , he's glad we have them there. He's a man who is all uniform and no substance. He's an opportunist who knew exactly when to strike. If Gore had won the presidency Clark would be running in the republican primary.

[QC]

60. Same shit, different day.

But keep repeating it--maybe the Big Lies will suddenly become truth if you can just regurgitate them one more time.

[NV1962]

36. Locked - flamebait

That's an apt summary methinks.

But I don't have a very clear idea of how DU readers (the whole DU audience) really respond to Clark... Hard to tell with all the dust kicked up by the performance of not more than a dozen folks (or sock puppets?) with a fuzzy allegiance to the Democrats, posing as either Clark or Dean supporters, but acting like worthy of neither.

I mean, there is genuine debate going on, but it often gets sidetracked or trolled over. Most annoying that. I s'ppose that's the charm of presidential elections, or so I'm told.

Come back in a month... For more of the same. ;)

[oasis]

38. Dem's fears of a Bush win has been Clark's biggest ally at DU and beyond.

[CWebster]

52. Influx of new Clark cheerleaders

with political naivete and subject to mainstream media consensus, skewing a progressive site to the Right. And that is the positive spin on it. Reports on reactionary conservative forums of posters with counts over 1000 still undetected (to some) on DU and reporting back of their anti-Dean mission. Makes you wonder.

Some are still here, but many progressives have Left.

You asked.

[edzontar]

65. The "Awesome"-speedo threads were the worst

In DU history.

Ever.

[zeemike]

78. I started out neutral on Clark

But after seeing the tactics of the Clark people, which match the tactics of the RW I have changed to ABC.
There is something wrong when you can’t tell the RW from a Democratic candidate.

[edzontar]

80. Well, I am ready to support Clark in the general

But will stay away from his blog--because these people have driven any support they might have gotten from me seriosuly underground...

[The Magistrate]

88. Good For You, My Friend

Should the nominee be someone other than Gen. Clark, it will make no whit of difference to my commitment to act effectively against the criminals of the '00 Coup.

[jonnyblitz]

95. same thing for me. I will have a real hard time voting for Clark.

eom.

[jumptheshadow]

89. Hmmmm....

Such logic. Progressives have left this board because of a candidate whose stance on issues is to the left of their candidate?

[The Magistrate]

91. More Likely, Ma'am

Passionate radicals who cannot keep their tempers have been shown the door for their intemperance....

[Tinoire]

96. Clark to the Left? Give everyone a break ok?

Old time Progressive DUers have left this board and gone to congregate elsewhere because of the right-wing talking points and intellectually insulting spin that started over-running this board right about the time some people expected us to team up with Republicans and Independents to back the NED/CSIS candidate.

It's not to the Left of any of the other Democratic candidates to go to Davis to campaign for Bush's war with Powell.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=102533

[windansea]

99. PC

http://www.politicalcompass.org/

[CWebster]

101. Based on what he says or what he's done?

If you just listened to what certain compassionate conservatives claim to get votes, they would be to the Left of Hillary Clinton.

[Turkw]

100. Well I'm fairly new to DU, so maybe I should go? Democracy is often

ugly in practice. I have posted positive things about Clark, and a few about Kucinich, put a few supportive posts about people who gave nice accounts of why they supported a candidate, not mine if you want to know. And I have a strong ABB stance.

But often when I refute attacks against Clark with facts, those answers are not disproved, but ignored by Clark bashers- whom I do not identify with supporters of other candidates. I say few negative things about other candidates, used to be never, but as it has gotten bloodier and more hysterical, I've fallen a few times.