What's the racial makeup of Al Sharpton's staff?

[Paragon]

Besides - how many people of color live in Vermont, anyway? ;)

[DuctapeFatwa]

1. Why do so few people of color live in Vermont?

I have seen that in several threads today, but haven't seen a lot of discussion about why.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

2. because it's cold as hell in Vermont

and most people in general wouldn't want to live there? just a guess.

[san antonio]

3. Demographics

There isn't exactly and abundance of affordable living in Vermont.

[DuctapeFatwa]

4. There isn't an abundance of affordable living anywhere

And there are other places where the weathter is cold that have plenty of non-whites.

[san antonio]

5. You know what I mean

You asked a question and I answered. Vermont is a pretty freaking expensive place to live compared to most places. Combine that with the relative lack of urban areas and that's a big reason why there are fewer minorities in Vermont.

[Syrinx]

6. a lot of people of color live in Vermont

White is a color isn't it?

I just don't understand why "person of color" is good, and "colored person" is bad. Someone care to explain?

[Paragon]

7. I'm sure there are plenty of people of color in Vermont

I'm just trying to take some of the piss out of last night's debate, and maybe have a little fun by turning the tables on Al.

[Syrinx]

9. oh no, I think I agree with your point of view

I was asking those other people. :)

[atre]

8. Interesting question

The answer lies in what has been termed the "people first" movement. My ex-girlfriend, a special ed teacher, explained to me that the thrust behind calling someone a person before throwing in the adjectives is to emphasize that the subject is in fact a person.

Thus, "person with disabilities" is preferable to "disabled person," and a "person of color" is preferable to a "colored person."

It doesn't make much sense to me, but I'm not a very P.C. person.

[Syrinx]

12. thanks for the explanation!

Still, it seems like petty, irrational pc bullshit to me... the kind of stuff that wins elections for the evil guys.

[spooky3]

23. but are you a person of color or with disabilities?

Maybe you have to be in their shoes to understand the importance of subtle distinctions?

[Anaxamander]

73. I mean, if it's so petty...

...then what's the point of taking issue with it? "Colored people" has a bit of history behind it. People still remember water fountains that were "coloreds only." They never said "people of color only." Sure, the terms are almost identical, but one has an ugly history and one is fairly new.

[TeeYiYi]

68. Numbers . . .

Vermont has a population of about 620,000 which
includes 5,580 Hispanics and 3,100 African-Americans.

TYY

[TLM]

10. Vermont has not really ever had any of the things that drew minorites...

Black folks were not brought there as slaves to work on plantations... there's no major industries to encourage migration to Vermont like in a place like detroit... and there was no big port like in LA or new York.

Most places that have a large population of blacks or Latinos can trace the origins of that population to either slaves or migrant laborers. Folks were either forced there to work as slaves, or after slavery folks moved around to certain places for work.

Vermont is not only cold... there's not any really big industry there to draw a large migration of workers.

[san antonio]

11. Speaking of which...

Just what the hell is there in Vermont?

[Syrinx]

13. beautiful countryside!

I saw it on tv.

[spooky3]

24. maple trees->tourists & maple syrup, and good furniture makers

[DuctapeFatwa]

14. Why is there no industry?

Is Vermont colder than Canada?

[Hep]

16. Proximity to resources?

What industries would you expect in Vermont?

[9119495]

41. There you go again with your logic. If you can't say anything

destructive, don't say anything at all.

[Hep]

15. Who here is qualified to say?

Occam's razor doesn't apply here. There are no doubt numerous factors, socioeconomical, historical, geographical, etc. There is no one explanation nor is there a simple way to put it.

[DuctapeFatwa]

19. It's a farm state, right? with almost no Latin Americans?

How do the people in Vermont feel about all this?

[Hep]

21. Feel about the fact that there are so few minorities?

I doubt they think about it all that often.

Is there a reason why it matters?

[DuctapeFatwa]

22. Yes, it sounds unusually ethnically homogeneous for an entire US state

so I wonder how the people who live there feel about that.

[spooky3]

25. is its homogeneity different from that of

Montana
Wyoming
North Dakota
South Dakota
Maine

etc.

with similar climates and few urban areas and a substantial distance from the southern border?

[Hep]

26. I'm sure they're fine with it.

It's not like there's an effort to keep minorities away from Vermont. Furthermore, Vermont's racial makeup isn't all that different from any other rural New England state.

Perhaps someone here could share with the class how anyone can reasonably expect a more diverse Vermont?

[DuctapeFatwa]

28. I would think they would be very sad about it

People in Vermont deserve to have diversity too.

[beaconess]

31. Dean apparently thinks that only Southern whites need to be

educated about racial diversity. I wonder how many white Vermonters he lectured about race during his 12 years as governor.

[Hep]

36. Call me when you GET IT.

Jeez. What will the "opponents" come up with next? Make an honest argument, please.

[Hep]

35. Forced diversity?

What other than forced diversity would make minorities move to Vermont? Are there minorities trying to move to Vermont and failing or meeting obstacles?

Help me out here.

[DuctapeFatwa]

37. That is even sadder. I feel sorry for Vermont

"What other than forced diversity would make minorities move to Vermont?"

[Hep]

39. Well,

what say you to solve this problem?

Vermont is overwhelmingly white, and it's not necessarily the fault of white people. So what's your Great Solution?

And why does it matter?

And what's your point in the first place?

This is very confusing. I'm getting inadequate answers for my many questions.

[DuctapeFatwa]

50. You are saying that it is so bad people would have to be forced to move

there, and you are asking me for solutions?

I am the person who asked why it was so white.

[maxanne]

52. because people of color

aren't moving there? No one is forcing them to stay away - it's a matter of choice - and it's echoed in many rural northern states.

Will you be offering up your phony pitying sentiments to Montana residents as well?

[DuctapeFatwa]

54. Are you saying that Montana is also so bad people would have to be

forced to live there?

Why would you characterize feeling sorry for such a place as phony?

[Hep]

56. You have yet to say why it is BAD.

You'[re building an entire (non)argument based on a faulty premise. YOu don't even explain what makes a lack of diversity in Vermont BAD in the first place. And you certainly have no solutions.

[DuctapeFatwa]

66. I am not the one who suggested that people would have to be forced

to live there.

If you think diversity is a bad thing, that is your right.

My intention was not to try to convince people opposed to diversity that they should change their minds, just to find out why Vermont has so few minorities.

If you think diversity is bad, and Vermont is not diverse, why is a solution needed?

[ozone_man]

74. Vermont and Northern New England are about the same.

That includes upper New York, VT, NH, and Maine. It is cold and rural. Vermont is getting more diversity at a gradual rate. Certainly the bigger cities like Burlington are more diverse by comparison to the state and IBM as well with 6,500 employees. But, you would likely see more Indians and Asians then African American or Latinos at IBM, because of the Education that is emphasized in India and Asia. A lot of scientists that emigrate to U.S. are Indian and Asian.

As has been said, there is not that much heavy industry in Vermont. Some Hi Tech electronics, software, Ben & Jerry's, etc., some light manufacturing like Husky, injection molding companies, etc..

A lot of our ethnic diversity has come from refugees, including Cambodians, Bosnians, Vietnamese, Chinese, Somalians, etc.

What is more important are the views and policies that promote ethnic diversity in the state. The three nationally elected leaders that we have are Leahy, Jeffords, and Bernie Sanders. Does anyone think that Vermont would elect a socialist congressman like Sanders if they did not believe in civil rights or ethnic diversity? The two senators that we have voted against the Iraq war, two of only 12 nationally. I consider this war an act of racism and it is plain as day. We hold our senators accountable for their votes.

[Hep]

55. Or Wyoming?

Or shall we make it more narrow in scope? Should I feel sad if there aren't more minorities in a restaurant where I'm eating at the moment I am there? Who am I to tell minorities where they should live? And why should anyone expect a primary reason for choosing a place to relocate to be how much diversity one is adding to the social climate? There is JUST NO POINT to this discussion.

[Hep]

53. So bad? No, it's not what I'm saying at all. Pay attention.

I'm not saying it's bad at all. I want to know why you think it is bad. I'm asking you for evidence that something is actively keeping minorities from moving to Vermont, and you're not answering. I am asking what circumstances have to exist for minorities to move to Vermont, and you're not answering. I ask again, do you want to discuss this or not?

[DuctapeFatwa]

58. I don't know the answer to your question

I asked why Vermont had so few minorities.

First you said there was no simple answer, and then you started asking about forcing people to live there.

[Hep]

60. Yeah, damn right, because you seem to want to go somewhere

but are stuck in neutral.

You want to know why there are so few minorities, and I answer that there have to be a ton of factors.

Your problem is that you automatically assume that lack of diversity in vermont is by default a bad thing, something that needs to be remedied. I'm still waiting to find out why it is such a bad thing. Care to participate?

[DuctapeFatwa]

63. If you think diversity is bad, you have a right to your opinion

and I am not going to try to convince you otherwise.

I know that there are many many people who are very opposed to diversity, but I am a little skeptical about the suggestion that an entire state feels that way.

[Hep]

65. I don't think diversity is bad, and I don't think lack thereof is

BY DEFAULT bad either. And I want to know why you DO think so. But repeated attempts at getting such an answer have yielded absolutely no fruit. THAT'S sad.

[DuctapeFatwa]

70. Why do I think diversity is good? I guess because I like all kinds of peop

I like to listen to lots of different kinds of music, eat lots of different foods, learn about different customs and cultures and history, I like to see and hear lots of different languages, see lots of different clothes.

[ShimokitaJer]

69. Dude, your hole is deep enough... stop digging!

nt

[DuctapeFatwa]

72. I am not digging a hole. I like diversity. Not ashamed of it, it is my

personal preference, my personal opinion.

If you disagree, that is your right and I am not here to try to change your mind.

[ShimokitaJer]

75. Fine... keep on digging

[9119495]

42. Do you favor forced migration of minorities to Vermont? Can't

they live where they wish?

[Hep]

44. Fine question

Still wondering about the point

:shrug:

[DuctapeFatwa]

48. what does post #37 say?

[Hep]

49. It's a quote.

You aren't really addressing the question. Did you want to discuss this or not?

[DuctapeFatwa]

51. yes, it is a quote from you. a very sad quote

I asked the original question because I am curious.

You make Vermont sound like such an awful desolate place that no one wants to live there.

[Hep]

57. Not a sad quote at all.

You seem to think it's sad that minorities don't live in Vermont, but you don't even know why they don't live in Vermont. So the questino is, why do you have a problem with people deciding for themselves where to live?

[DuctapeFatwa]

61. Not at all. I think it's sad that minorities don't want to live in Vermont

It must be a more sensitive issue than I had realized. I asked because I want to know, not to upset people.

[Hep]

62. WHY, again, WHY, and again, WHY, and again and again and again, WHY

I'll ask as long as you respond without answering. If you don't know why minorities don't want to live in Vermont, how can you conclude that it is sad? WHY is it sad when you don't know all of the information you need to draw a conclusion? WHY WHY WHY!

[DuctapeFatwa]

71. Because I am having a hard time with the idea that an entire state

would think having minorities live there is a bad thing.

[9119495]

76. The state doesn't think that. Some on this board do.

No one said they can't live there, but if a minority person wants to live in New York--where many do--then let them.

[maxanne]

78. the state isn't making that

decision - the minorities are. You are being deliberately obtuse.

[DuctapeFatwa]

47. see post #37

[maxanne]

46. maybe

we could bus people of color in to live there? :eyes:

I hate to sound reasonable - but I'm thinking that if people of color wanted to live there - they would.

There is diversity in Vermont - but ya'll are clearly biased about it. There's a very large population of French Canadians. Apparently they don't count.

NH is very similar. There isn't a lot of industry in the rural areas. It's friggin cold, and it's hard to make a living - and affordable housing is an issue. I wouldn't move here.

[RetroLounge]

67. Yes, the ENTIRE STATE is in a total funk and depression

they walk around all day in a zombie like lithium-shuffle sort of way, mumbling to themselves that there is not enough diversity. It's an institutional type of sadness, really.

Lots of tears, sobbing, knashing of teeth. Wailing all day.

This is why there are no industries. Everyone is too sad over the lack of diversity to actully build any factories.

Then the sadness over lack of industry just adds to it.

It's a viscious cycle really.

We should just sell Vermont to Canada and get it over with.

[9119495]

77. At least they could get perscriptions filled more cheaply. n/t

[nomaco-10]

17. I don't know about the racial makeup, but ...

I know they have a propensity for posh hotel suites, fine dining and lear jet travel.

[bigtree]

32. Vermont's per capita income

$26,000, 24th in nation

[LuminousX]

18. I heard Sharpton's organization didn't hire whites

Jesse Jackson, Jr. was on the news last night saying Sharpton wasn't practicing what he was preaching and was doing a poor job in building a rainbow coalition.

I think we are seeing why Jesse Jackson (sr.) is considered the elder statesman of black America while Sharpton is just a hasbeen. At a time when we need to start laying the foundation of healing, Sharpton opens up a racially charged attack.

Could Dean have done better with his cabinet? Yes. Is it indicative of anything more sinister? No.

[beaconess]

20. Not sinister - just insensitive

[ShimokitaJer]

27. Dean or Sharpton?

[beaconess]

29. Dean

His failure to appoint even one minority to his cabinet in 12 years as governor is not sinister or racist. It does, however, show an insensitivity to the issue of diversity in hiring. Not an attack, not a flame, just a fact. Howard Dean is not perfect. This is one of his weak spots. His supporters need to address this issue rather than attack everyone who raises it or try to defend it by claiming that black people just weren't qualified for the jobs.

It is very troubling to see the supporters of a candidate who claims to be a progressive on civil rights resort to such tactics. It also makes me question whether these supporters are truly committed to the principles their candidate espouses or are just so enamoured of the man that they don't care what he stands for as long as he wins.

[ShimokitaJer]

33. I don't think it's an attack to demand the same standards of Sharpton

After all, Sharpton is the one who made this an issue by bringing it up in the debates. If he think diversity means hiring no white people rather than hiring all white people, then I think there's a stronger problem there than Dean has.

If you want a real sense of Dean's record on minorities, you should go to the people who have seen it firsthand in Vermont rather than relying on the claims of his political opponents. There was an AP article on it today, in fact. Reserve judgment until you've got all the facts.

http://www.salon.com/news/wire/2004/01/12/dean_minorities/index.html

[beaconess]

34. A couple of points

1. Dean supporters have yet to offer any evidence that Sharpton has no white people working for him.

2. Even if Sharpton does have an all-black staff, he should be let off the hook - at least under the Dean standard. Sharpton is based in Harlem, which is predominantly black. If, as these folks claim, the fact that Vermont is overwhelmingly white justifies Dean's all-white cabinet, wouldn't the fact that Harlem is overwhelmingly black justify Sharpton hiring an all-black staff?

3. Dean supporters are doing more than questioning Sharpton's hiring practices. They have attacked him as a "race-baiter," a "demagogue," a "pimp," etc. because he had the temerity to ask Dean about his record on diversity. This is uncalled for and, in my view, is pathetic.

4. As noted previously, Dean has been positioning himself as the only candidate who can effectively address the race issue and talk to whites about diversity. He left himself open to questions about his own record on diversity. Sharpton has not positioned himself this way and, thus, is not vulnerable to the same charges of hypocrisy.

5. When presented with evidence of other candidates' hiring records, Dean supporters in DU have insisted that campaign staffs don't count. I would assume that that also applies to Sharpton's campaign, unless he's being held to a different standard.

[LuminousX]

38. It was Jesse Jackson Jr. who made the assertion

And it wasn't in regards to the campaign staff, but Sharpton's National network thing.

Jesse Jackson Jr. said both candidates needed to do better.

[ShimokitaJer]

40. All I ask is that the candidates avoid hypocrisy in their attacks

I'm not attacking Sharpton for being a racist, but for demanding a higher standard for the other candidates than he does for himself.

Regarding your points:

1. Very true. Do you have any data on that? I have been unable to find any.

2. That is my point. We need to judge all the candidates by the same standard. If it's okay for Sharpton, it's okay for Dean. If it's not okay for Dean, it's not okay for Sharpton.

3. Sharpton didn't "ask Dean about his record on diversity." He asked a specific question the answer to which he knew would make Dean look bad on diversity. Those are very different things, and that's why, regardless of Sharpton's own record on diversity, he leaves himself open to accusations of hypocrisy if he does not follow the same standards he sets up for others.

4. Dean has said that, and I believe it is valid to criticize him for it. He is not the only candidate to talk about race. But to imagine that Sharpton has not attempted to position himself as the best candidate for the race issue is naive. Just look at his reaction when Jesse Jackson decided to endorse Dean rather than him.

5. This is the same thing as point number two. When Sharpton asked the question of Dean, he was specific that he didn't mean members of administration or staff (where Dean does have minorities in positions), but cabinet. In other words, he picked the narrowest field he could, and the only field in which he could get the answer he wanted. No matter what Dean or Sharpton supporters say the standard should be, Sharpton has opened himself up to accusations of hypocrisy if he fails to meet the standards he insists others follow.

[bigtree]

30. Attacks on Rev. Sharpton

bely the calls of some here who have pleaded for unity, and do not address the issue, which by the way, appeared in a newspaper before Rev. Sharpton raised it in the debate.

[Bush loves Jiang]

64. Wouldn't surprise me...

Sharpton and Gephardt are fucked up.

Gephardt would rather have supporters driving "American" cars made by cheap, poorly-treated Mexican labour than foreign cars made by well-treated and well-paid Japanese and European labour.

[JaneQPublic]

43. Here's info on members of Sharpton's campaign organization

Check here:

http://www.gwu.edu/~action/2004/sharpton/sharporg.html

Since I haven't heard of most of these people, I can't characterize the racial makeup of Sharpton's staff, short of using Google image search to find their pictures. Anyone else care to make an assessment?

[spooky3]

45. A notable absence of women. Were there any female names on the page?

[Bush loves Jiang]

59. 100% Republican...

Ask D'Amato and Pataki. :-P