A formal endorsement of Clark by Michael Moore dooms him !

[Hoppin_Mad]

Like it or not, Michael Moore is DETESTED by The Right, and most Middle of the Roaders. They like him about as much as they like Saddam.

Gun Rights people like Michael Moore a little less than they like Ossama.

Michaels only real support comes from the Far Left, and Greens.

If Moore endorses Clark - he loses the majority of the swing voters - and has NO chance.

Unless you've seen the amount of organized hatred of Moore ( they tried to have his Oscar recalled - there are dozens of anti-Moore sites ) - you will not believe it.

It's the Kiss of Death.

-edit clarity -

[Renew Deal]

1. Bash, bash, bash

Geez. Say something nice.

Who would Moore endorse in the GE, Bush? Of course he would endorse a dem. The early endorsement means that Clark has something MM likes. The people that hate Moore are not voting for the nominee, have no fear.

This does help with lefties though. One of my friends is split between Clark and Kucinich because of Moore.

[Hoppin_Mad]

5. Congrats for the endorsement - This Far Lefty loves Moore ! ;-) -eom

[JVS]

46. Moore has endorsed Greens before

[Terwilliger]

2. who do you support?

which candidate?

[Hoppin_Mad]

7. Dean - but Moore NOT backing DK really surprises me -eom

[SeveneightyWhoa]

3. Oh no! DOZENS of anti-Moore sites?

What are we to do! Dozens? WOW!

..um, not even looking at the fact that there are tens of thousands of anti-Bush sites, I think the only people that Clark really has to attract now are "leftists"--which is exactly what a Moore endorsement will do for him. He already has the attention of moderates and your average Democrat, and the like--Moore will help with the further-lefties.

[Hoppin_Mad]

11. Sorry - hundreds if not thosands -eom

[liberalnurse]

4. Clark really has not even been tested yet.

Essentially he has been ignored. Once they, the contenders start checking out his game. it will not be so easy for him to cruise.

[JVS]

47. It helps him that he misses debates to avoid attention too

[mmonk]

6. oakey doakey

Is the right interested in our candidates? News to me.

[lcordero]

8. Please

The average person is doesn't watch television, the news, or follow politics. The average person doesn't know or care who Michael Moore is. About 15 years ago, the only parts of the newspaper that I read were the comic strips and the sports section. About 10 years ago, I only looked at the comic strips. Now, I don't buy newspapers.

[Hoppin_Mad]

9. They don't watch television ? -eom-

[enki23]

12. they don't watch the news

eom

[lcordero]

27. Why would we watch television when most of us have to hold

down two jobs just to live paycheck to paycheck?

[kayleybeth]

10. The same could be said of Janeane Garofolo

who happens to endorse Dean, if I'm not mistaken. But I would never start a thread about it.

[democracyindanger]

14. Good one n/t

[RevolutionStartsNow]

13. Not quite doom, but not good

I have to agree with you.

I personally like a lot of Moore's work and I love him as one of our bravest and most outspoken voices, but from the right, he is considered a major wacko. And I don't mean just from the far right.

It's a good endorsement in theory, but maybe quite damaging in practice.

[adadem]

28. Definitely iffy.

I like Moore and I like the General but Moore is certainly a divisive figure.

[Printer70]

15. Getting Moore's endorsement would show Clark's naivete

Much as we like him, can only add net negatives in the general.

[jburton]

16. But Oprah likes Moore

She had him on the show to promote his book and as a result he sold a bazillion more that week.

I'm not a big Oprah fan, but she seems "mainstream" enough.

[QC]

17. A bit hyperbolic, don't you think?

If one were to go out on the street, randomly choose people, and ask them who Michael Moore is, most would have no idea.

Only those who are more politically aware than average would know, and the ones who have been taught by Hannity and Rush to hate him are not voting in our primary anyway.

Frankly, I think the power of endorsements, both pro and con, is much exaggerated. It's fun to squablle and bitch about for some, but few people will change their votes due to an endorsement.

[SeveneightyWhoa]

18. I would assume that most people know who Moore is.

He's a major figure. You're telling me most Americans don't know who he is? Whoaaa..

[Dookus]

20. I believe firmly

that the majory of Americans don't know who Michael Moore is.

Hell, I'm sure the majority of Americans probably don't even know who Martin Scorcese is.

I think you overestimate the popularity of documentary film-makers. His books, while best-sellers, probably never sell more than 1 million copies. And that's a big hit.

[QC]

22. Exactly. A lot of us follow his activities,

but an awful lot more people stick to primetime tv and pop fiction. They are not likely to be exposed to Moore at all, unless they get a glimpse of him on a talk show while channel surfing.

[Hoppin_Mad]

23. You don't think they saw or read about his Oscar speech ? -eom

[hellhathnofury]

24. We'll then they'll have a negative reaction...

he blew that opportunity pretty bad. He came off as a raving nut.

[QC]

26. You know, when I think of the people I saw in the Piggly-Wiggly today,

I have a very hard time imagining them holding heated discussions of Moore's Oscar speech. Most seemed pretty intent on picking up some groceries, going home after a long day at work, and fixing some dinner.

I think you are making a common DU mistake, which is to assume that the whole world is as politically aware and even obsessed as we are. We are a fairly small and atypical group of people. That's not to say that we are better than the great unwashed masses, as some here like to assume, only that our interests are not those of the typical American.

So no, I don't think many average people are still pondering Moore's Oscar speech or, for that matter, care who he votes for.

[ecstatic]

41. I agree. Heck, my bf rented "bowling for colombine" and STILL

didn't know who Michael Moore was when I brought his name up during a discussion. LOL!

[eileen_d]

19. You are correct.

Even if more people know who Michael Moore is due to the success of Bowling for Columbine, an endorsement from Moore is not a marching order. Hell, an endorsement from Gore is not a marching order.

[kovasb]

21. Helps in primaries, Helps in general election

The most important point is that Clark's reputation as a 'republican', as is being vigorously 'discusssed' over and over again, insulates him from the negative aspects of this, while it no doubt helps his liberal cred when it matters most - in the primaries.

I dont think independent swing voters will be turned off by Moore's endoresment.

And i dont think Moore is that important to really get the right rilled up. He is no hillary...
I admit i have not seen the organized hatred of Moore, but wont those people be voting for Shrub anyway?

Its almost impossible to spin this negative, let alone 'dooming' clark. To say that Moore's endoresment kills the 'majority' of the swing vote is i think wrong. Is madonna's endoresment going to lose him to the support of those who dont want their 12 year old daughters kissing other girls for money? People get subjected to so much random input that stuff like this will be lost in the shuffle.

[revcarol]

25. And Clark favors "gun control?"

Just asking.

[kovasb]

29. yes.

http://clark04.com/issues/gunsafety/

He invented the "if you like assault weapons we have a place for you in the army" line that has since been recycled by the other candidates.

I mean its a pretty standard democratic stance as far as i know.

[w13rd0]

36. Um, actually, Clark didn't invent that line...

...you'd have to go back a bit further, like into the 1940s, for the origin of that line.

[SahaleArm]

48. Uh, not really...

The line from the 40's was about all guns not just assault weapons; And no I can't have an RPG either. Doesn't Dean support the assault weapons ban as well?

[TexasSissy]

30. Moore's not detested by moderates. I'm a moderate.

I like my gun, and I'm in favor of capital punishment in certain situations. On the other hand, I wouldn't put a Wal-Mart on pristine land for the sake of a few hundred low paying jobs, and I think we as a society have a duty to take care of those less able to (the elderly, children, the homeless, the unemployed) and I'm willing to pay the taxes to do it.

Yes, I'm a moderate. Liberal sometimes, conservative sometimes.

And I like Michael Moore a lot. I also like Al Franken, Molly Ivins, Bill Maher, Bill Clinton, McCain, Bob Dole, and a host of people belonging to both parties or no party (not too many Repubs, though). I also dislike people belonging to both parties.

I have read Al Franken's "Lies, and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them," as well as "Bushwhacked" by Molly Ivins.

As a moderate, centrist Democrat, I would be delighted if Moore endorses my candidate, Clark.

[Eloriel]

31. Moore is also detested by loads of Dems who blame Nader

for Gore's "loss" and Moore for having endorsed Nader.

Too funny. Good point, Hoppin_Mad!

It may also make him look pretty liberal -- maybe too liberal.

Eloriel

[Hoppin_Mad]

35. That's a good point too - I forgot ! -eom-

[dfong63]

32. moore seems to have stars in his eyes

[slinkerwink]

33. click on this link to see why many Dems don't like Moore

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/1/13/63814/8165

[QC]

37. Oh come now. If Moore had endorsed Dean, you would

have started five threads about it already and would be frantically kicking each of them every fifteen seconds.

[kayleybeth]

39. LMAO!

Ain't it the truth :-)

[QC]

42. Yep!

Nothing like kicking all your own threads every time they threaten to fall a third of the way down the first page!

[SahaleArm]

50. A link to Kos and unhappy Dean supporters? LOL

That's like pointing to Freeperville after a Clinton endorsement...

[Ivote]

34. I WOULD

go to www.michaelmoore.com and read the letter he wrote to General Clark.

[NV1962]

38. Two words: "grapes" and "sour"

As if the gun nuts will vote for someone in favor of reasonable gun control.
Yeah.

Well done. Next, you could try the "Michael Moore is fat" angle.

:shrug:

[QC]

40. LOL!

He also has funny hair!

[RevolutionStartsNow]

44. Um, not this time

Sour grapes ARE common when endorsements come in -- witness the trashing of Gore, the marginalizing of Bradley, and the attacks on anyone or any instution endorsing ANY candidate. Welcome to DU.

But this is a little different. I would cringe a bit if Moore endorsed Dean, because the media would use this as one more piece of evidence that Dean is a wacky liberal.

I'm not sure how this will play with potential Clark voters. As has been said here, endorsements truly don't mean all that much, but I suspect that this one would appear in some right-wing ads against General Clark, should he get the nom. And it would certainly hurt him with the swing voters.

[kayleybeth]

51. Did you cringe when Janeane Garofolo endorsed Dean?

Because a lot of swing voters have the same opinion of Janeane as they do of Michael Moore.

[SahaleArm]

52. Of course not - She endorsed Dean

Heck the right detests Martin Sheen - does that mean Dean is doomed?

[Hoppin_Mad]

54. She's not nearly as well known as Moore -eom

[SahaleArm]

56. Scarborough is addicted to Janeane...

Every damn preview used to show her - The show is awful but wingnuts probably love it.

[kayleybeth]

58. That's not true Hoppin_mad

Janeane and Mike are often mentioned in the same breath by their detractors.

And just for the record, I don't think Janeane's endorsement of Dean will mean "doom" for his campaign. I just think some of y'all Dean supporters are being silly and extremely petty about this. Both Garofolo and Moore are about as liberal as it gets and both speak volumes for the candidates they have chosen to endorse. So, congrats on the Garofolo endorsement! She's awesome!

[Constitution]

43. Moore appears willing to unite the party behind Clark.

If Dennis does well, I'm sure Moore will get behind him. But I don't think Moore likes Dean and wants someone more liberal than Dean to win.

[JVS]

49. A party that neither he nor Clark were members of in 2000

interesting to say the least

[Hoppin_Mad]

53. You don't think Moore likes Dean ? Did you READ his 9/12/03 letter ?

Aparently not.

"This is not an endorsement. For me, it's too early for that. I have liked Howard Dean (in spite of his flawed positions in support of some capital punishment, his grade "A" rating from the NRA, and his opposition to cutting the Pentagon budget). And Dennis Kucinich is so committed to all the right stuff. We need candidates in this race who will say the things that need to be said, to push the pathetically lame Democratic Party into having a backbone -- or get out of the way and let us have a REAL second party on the ballot. "

[Clark4VotingRights]

45. I understand.

I'm disappointed too when my candidate doesn't get an endorsement
I want. (I wanted Conyers.) But I just give congrats to the
candidate's supporters and move on.

Moore's a major endorsement.
So Clark has lots of military endorsements, african american,
native american, hispanic, progressives in his big tent.

Another celebration is called for!

:bounce:

[Leilani]

55. It Just Goes to Show the Wide Range Appeal of Clark

Several days ago the former heads of West Point & Annapolis

Now Michael Moore

Native Americans, Madonna, Veterans, Charlie Rangel, Andrew Young

Seems like a pretty good group to me: looks like America!!!!

[economic justice]

57. I support Clark and wish this wasn't happening

Moore is not exactly a credible anything. His books and films are riddled with errors and he does much damage to others working to defeat the Bush crowd. In my opinion.