Have any black voters withdrawn support of Dean since debate revelation?

[Maddy McCall]

If this voter's decision is any indication, the Sharpton-Dean exchange is affecting African-American support of Dean in Iowa:

Bobbretta Brewton, a social services executive, says Howard Dean had her support, but not anymore, especially after this exchange in Sunday's debate.

"I took him off my shopping list, because race is important and it needs to be addressed. And I was pleased that Al Sharpton continued until he actually had to admit that he didn't have a diverse key Cabinet."

Transcript available at: http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0401/12/pzn.00.html

[Padraig18]

1. Who knows?

Great way to re-introduce this subject for the umpteenth time, though... :shrug:

[RetroLounge]

2. Sure, we can generalize all you want.

dead horse, meet stick.

[TLM]

6. hahahahahahaha... great minds and all that.

[HFishbine]

3. Mississippi Congressman Bennie Thompson

See things a little differently.

http://www.blogforamerica.com/

[Maddy McCall]

11. Wish Bennie would have supported our former Democratic Governor more

then we wouldn't be swearing in Haley Barbour in Mississippi today.

[Capn Sunshine]

13. Six members of the Black congressional Caucus

also know a winner when they see one.

[Maddy McCall]

27. And 32 have not endorsed him.

So what?

[beaconess]

30. That's because they're not representative of the black point of view

don't you understand?

[Maddy McCall]

34. I gotcha

:eyes:

[goobergunch]

49. Who have they endorsed?

I'll be able to tell you when I get home from school.

[TLM]

4. Dead horse meet jchild....

[NWHarkness]

5. Shocking revelation!

The population of Vermont is nearly all white!

[TLM]

14. If the population of Dean 6 person cabinet were to represent vermont...

they'd have a fraction of a black guy. The state is 98%.


I love the idea that opportunistic attackers of Dean use... that Dean should have scoured the nation to find someone to hire based only on their race.

These folks are actually resorting to acting like Dean should have discriminated based on race, in order to make some token appointment of a minority.

It is not like there was a line of black and Latino folks trying to get on Dean's cabinet, but were being rejected due to discriminatory hiring practices.

[beaconess]

21. Why are you so eager to round the number of blacks DOWN

to require zero representation rather than round the number UP to enable ONE WHOLE minority person to serve in the cabinet?

Or to put it another way, in order to exactly reflect the state's racial demographics, there would have had to be five whole white people plus a fraction of a white person. So why is it ok to count that fraction as a whole white person thereby allowing whites to be overrepresented in the cabinet but not ok to count that fraction as a black person because it would result in blacks being overrepresented?

Moreover, we're not talking about only six cabinet appointments. Dean made more than 30 cabinet appointments during his tenure as governor, so one black person would not have broken the bank.

[Maddy McCall]

22. Excellent point, beaconess...

30 appointments and not a single AFrican American.

[TLM]

42. that's 6 appointments over 5 terms....

he appointed the SAME people over and over again each term. Saying he had 30 appointments is like saying Clinton had two vice presidents.


Wow some folks are really trying hard to misrepresent the facts.

[Clark Can WIN]

39. 30 cabinet appointments, ~~~~WHITES ONLY~~~~

Not one black OR brown. Don't forget browns.:hi:

[progressivebydesign]

60. Oh GOD!!! SWEATER AND BABY PHOTO!!!

Those image guys have been working overtime!! Where's that army uniform photo? DIdn't poll well with chicks?? hee hee

[TLM]

41. Check your facts... Dean had almost no rollover in his cabinet.

The same folks were appointed again and again each term.

"Or to put it another way, in order to exactly reflect the state's racial demographics, there would have had to be five whole white people plus a fraction of a white person."

Well there would be 5 white guys and 1 guy who was about 90% white and the remaining 10% divided between blacks, Latinos, and native Americans.

I understand that Dean opponents are desperate at this point and frankly I expect they'll be attacking him soon for not having more blacks and Latinos in his family.

And perhaps you missed the article about Dean trying to recruit some minority folks and then not being interested because they had better paying jobs elsewhere?

Can you please point out to me the black or Latino person(s) who was/were trying to get on Dean's cabinet but was/were rejected based on their race?

[diamondsoul]

44. OMG, TLM, I think I'll faint now!

We actually AGREED on something! ROTFL

I brought that up in a thread from yesterday...I've never seen a large turnover in incumbent cabinet personnel. It would just be incredibly stupid unless you have a major demographics change and need to make sure you have the pulse of the group that has increased dramatically. Beyond that it's pointless to replace people you know are loyal, trustworthy, knowledgable and able to work together.

You could actually take it a step further and say ok, of the percentage of minorities living in Vermont, just how many of them are qualified for cabinet positions AND applying for them? How many minority folks sought out Gov. Dean during his campaigns and said "I'd like to be considered if you have an opening on your Cabinet."?

Detractors are essentially saying Dean himself is solely responsible for hiring a minority onto his cabinet when the very real possibility is that no minority person ever wanted to join his cabinet. That being the case they claim he should have looked out of State- well WTF for? He's not duty-bound to hire an out-of-State minority person when he has qualified people in the State he's Governing. Maybe to him State residency was more important than skin color. Yeah, now there's discrimination, a Governor focusing on the State he Governs.*sarcasm*:eyes:

[TLM]

You have to love the irony.... this attack is about discriminatory hiring

or at least that's the attempt being made, to imply Dean would only hire whites.

Yet nobody can point to someone who was rejected based on race... in fact just the opposite, they went looking for minority appointments and the candidates for the position did not want it.

I think the miss the point of the whole idea of equality in hiring practices... if the black dude doesn't get the job because he's got a better paying job elsewhere and declines the position... that's not discrimination on the part of the employer. I think most minority folks would agree, that the real problem in hiring is being unable to get a job because of your race... it's not having to choose between multiple jobs and select the best paying one.

However the argument, supposedly against discrimination based on race in hiring, is that Dean should have discriminated based on race in hiring by only hiring a minority person, even if it meant going out of state to find someone to sit on the state government... that's just dumb.

[bigtree]

7. This clearly demonstrates that there is support for Al's query,

and a rejection, by some, of Gov. Deans response. Hard to call her names and question her motives, isn't it?

[TLM]

15. LOL! So the opinions of one black person represents all?

Sad how some folks will spew racist stereotyping and encourage racial discrimination in hiring... all to attack Dean.

[bigtree]

23. your response is a tactic

to make it appear that I was racially stereotyping this individual as speaking for all blacks or encouraging racial discrimination in hiring.

a rejection, "by some" is what I wrote.

Can you make a post without insulting someone?

[TLM]

45. LOL! This whole desperate attack is a tactic...

And trying to present one black person's opinion of Dean as if it is representative of all black folks or a trend in the black community, is stereotyping.

Some folks hate Dean so much they'll stereotype black folks and try to prop up this BS attack on Dean, even after Sharpton is backing off of it.

It is clear that for some the issue of sterotyping, discrimination, and equality all take a back seat to a good race baiting attack on Dean.

[beaconess]

24. Of course it doesn't

and I hope you remember that the next time a Dean supporter trots out some black person who is quoted somewhere as justification for a point they're trying to make.

[TLM]

46. The endorsements people trot out for Dean...

are not the same as one person's opinion... as the whole point of endorsements is that those making them do carry with them the support of others.

I think Jesse Jackson Jr. endorsement means a lot more than some woman at a mall who says she's not shopping for Dean anymore.

[Maddy McCall]

47. Really??? How elitist of you. That social worker's vote is actually MORE

important than Jackson's, seeing as he CAN'T even vote in Iowa!

[TLM]

53. I said nothing about votes...

I said endorsements. And someone like Jackson Jr. carries more weight and influence than some average person.

It is not elitist at all to say that more people follow Jackson and are influenced by his support than follow this lady and are influenced by her lack of support.

But again, nice tactic to try misrepresenting my words.

[corporatewhore]

8. I think so in the primaries

[dave29]

9. she didn't necessarily support him to begin with

as you asserted she did by asking if people were "withdrawing" their support. She just said she took him off her shopping list. If anything, the unfounded attack may hurt him with some undecideds whom are not informed of Dean's record and position on equality.

[Maddy McCall]

10. Uh, no, she said she DID support him, but not anymore. Read it.

[beaconess]

25. You don't understand - she doesn't worship at the Dean altar

and therefore, her opinion is either 1) irrelevant; 2) misguided; or 3) part of a concerted effort to damage Dr. Dean.

Of course, if she had praised Dean, she would be held up as the paragon of black political thought in America.

[Maddy McCall]

36. Again, another excellent point.

And, a belated welcome to DU to you, beaconess. :hi:

[TLM]

54. And we know she's not lying because?

It sure wouldn't be the first time a Dean opponent lied and pretended to be a defecting supporter for a lame gotcha attack.

[beaconess]

59. So, you don't believe that anyone has actually defected from Dean

and that anyone who says they have should be suspected of lying? Shame on you for making such an insinuation based upon nothing more than the fact that this woman has problems with your candidate.

It's amazing the lengths you guys are going to perpetuate the myth that your candidate is infallible.

I have a clue for you - everyone who opposes Dean or even says they changed their mind about him is not delusional, a liar or an idiot.

[xultar]

12. Good to see that Dean's Supporters care as much about race

as he does. (scarcasm) :shrug:

[TLM]

17. Good to see that Clark's Supporters care as much about race baiting

as he does. (scarcasm) :shrug:

[diamondsoul]

63. Oh stop it!

The argument presented is that Dean should have used descriminatory hiring no matter which way you slice it. Either he hired an underqualified Vermont Resident based SOLELY on race** assuming any minority people ever even applied for a position which so far I've not seen proof of.**, or he went looking for an qaulified minority individual out of State and blew off qualified white, Vermont resident applicants based again SOLELY ON RACE!

Racism is NOT ok with me, no matter which way it goes!

**edited to clarify a point about applicants.

[Eloriel]

70. Oh, please, Xultar

That's totally, TOTALLY unfair to Dean.

Would you care to see a little more about his real record? I don't care if you don't support him (for whatever reason, or none at all), but I do care that he is being unfairly maligned. Readd it if you dare. It's a MUCH more comprehensive and therefore fair look at his record:

Leaders: Dean Tried to Appoint Minorities
http://www.newsday.com/news/politics/wire/sns-ap-democrats-minorities,0,1698744.story?coll=sns-ap-politics-headlines

[rucky]

16. Does the Black Caucus Conduct Polls?

it would be a better way to determine this.

[TLM]

20. No no no... don;t pay attention to the massive support Dean has

from minority communities based on his policy and great record on minority issues... no pay attention to one person who bought Sharpton's BS attack that Dean is bad on race because he did not have a black person in the 6 person cabinet in his state. Or ignore the fact he hired more women than any Vermont gov ever or that his staff did have minority members, just not in the 6 cabinet positions.

[mzmolly]

32. Dean has more support from the CBC then any other candidate.

There's your poll.

There is also your *motive* for Mr. Sharptons grandstanding. Sour grapes over Jesse Jackson Jr. and other endorsements from the CBC for Dean.

[TLM]

56. SHHhhhhhhhhhh! No black people hate Dean....

they hate the fact that he had 6 people working for him who weren't black.... nevermind the fact he offered positions to folks of color who rejected them to take higher paying jobs... nevermind the policy positions or the fact that the rest of Dean's staff did have lots of minorities... nevermind the fact the guy had more women working for his administration than any vermont gov before him.

[beaconess]

61. And lots of us hate the fact that so many Dean supporters

say the kind of crap that you keep posting.

[Toot]

18. I didn't and I'm black.

[Padraig18]

19. welcome to DU, Toot!

:hi:

[mzmolly]

28. Welcome toot!

:toast: :hi:

[mzmolly]

29. *

dup

[bigtree]

31. welcome to DU, Toot!

:hi:

[Toot]

37. Thanks for the welcome. It's very interesting here.

[mzmolly]

26. 1. According the AP Dean made every effort to have a diverse cabinet

http://www.newsday.com/news/politics/wire/sns-ap-democrats-minorities,0,1698744.story?coll=sns-ap-politics-headlines

2. Dean is gaining in the Iowa Polls.

3. I saw Sheila Jackson Lee defend Dean on Faux news just yesterday. She is apparently still *supporting* Dean.

Along with these people:

http://www.blacksfordean.com/endorsements.htm

In fact, he gained another endorsement from a member of the CBC because she herself was fed up with the bullshit.

:hi:

[CWebster]

33. Has Clark attracted anymore women voters since he donned

the comfy, casual look of Mr Rogers and started his chatty "Conversations with Clark" performances?

[Maddy McCall]

35. Uh, yeah, he has...

he swayed me. His complete, unswaying support of women's control of their own fertility did it for me.

Why are you trying to change the subject at hand? Nothing to say about it?

[mzmolly]

43. Apparently his support for womens choice was not so fervent when he

supported Reagan/Bush 1 ? Glad he's come around in time for the election. ;)

[Maddy McCall]

50. And he didn't kinda come around...he came around BIG TIME!

But of course you have NO IDEA what his stance on choice was in 84, do you?

Why are you stearing the discussion toward Clark and away from the topic at hand? LOL!

[mzmolly]

51. YIPPY SKIPPY!

;)

I can only surmise that he was not as concerned as I was in 84 because he cast his vote for Reagan.

I'm not trying to trash your candidate here. Just pointing out the differences.

GO DEAN!! Jchild, I predict you'll come around to Dean sometime soon. :hi:

[Maddy McCall]

52. The only way I would even consider Dean is if he were the Dem nominee

but since that won't happen, your prediction is moot.

Clark is honest about his past. Wish YOUR candidate was! He can keep his records sealed, but the truth does have a way of coming out, does it not? :-)

[maxanne]

65. is he?

What's he had to say about getting fired from his General's job?

[Maddy McCall]

67. Ah, I love it when you guys hate him for his career in the military and

in the same breath condemn him for leaving the military.

Good job hijacking this thread. Now if you would care to address the topic at hand or start your own thread, I will respond.

[maxanne]

69. I notice

that you aren't answering the question. I don't mean to hijack your thread - but you're shooting yourself in the foot, because now I can mention how very eager you are to hold Dean accountable for every little accusation that may or may not even be true, and how very eager you are to avoid the known truths of the General's past.

[maxanne]

62. Voting for Reagan

and Bush1 would indicate that his concern for women's reproductive rights were minimal, if they existed at all. I'm amazed at the level of denial that so many Clark supporters are able to embrace.

[Maddy McCall]

66. Or maybe it shows that he wasn't a single-issue voter.

Duh.

[maxanne]

71. your manners

are less than stellar, jchild. Feel free to atttempt to justify what is so blatantly obvious. This much touted concern for women's reproductive rights is a recent development, a sleazy attempt at pandering to women voters. If this had been an important issue to him all along, he'd NEVER have voted for either Reagan or Bush1.

It shows he was a Republican voter, with Republican concerns - and the oppression of women was just fine with him.

Denial - it's so humorous to watch.

[Clark Can WIN]

38. Do you think many would admit it here? n/t

[CWebster]

40. The debate revelation when Carol Mosely Braun slapped

the clown, Sharpton, down?


Do you think Blark's breathless fans will head for the hills when the questions of his political allegiance, his record of praising Bush and his coherts are repeated endlessly along with the circumstances of his retirement and relationaship with unsavory war criminal types?

Just preparing you.

[bigtree]

48. not if they come in the form of this insulting smear of Rev. Sharpton

How about a post that doesn't insult? Your insults obscure your argument.

[CWebster]

55. Is that you, Al?

[progressivebydesign]

57. I hate when people assume what Black voters think.

It always amazes me, that even in this century, people still think that all black voters care about is being black. They DO have other things to worry about.. like jobs, health care, schools, war, pollution, etc. If someone was REALLY swayed by a comment Sharpton made, and they didn't take the time to dig deeper into the issue (if it's that important), then their support was weak to begin with. You minimize voters of any group when you reduce them to single issue voters. It's a way to divide America, and continue to exclude black voters from the process.

[Maddy McCall]

64. No one is assuming what minorities think. This is a QUOTATION

There is quite a difference in a quotation and an assumption, right? :shrug:

[joefree1]

68. Well said, race baiting is terrible

Race baiting is as low as the Bush war=patriotism litmus test. What Sharpton did was opportunistic and I'm applauded with Glee when CMB slapped him down for it.


Images from Dean Rocks the House of Blues, Hollywood
From wtmusic http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=919849
From Joefree1 http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=921300

[progressivebydesign]

58. I hate when people minimize black voters!!!

It always amazes me, that even in this century, people still think that all black voters care about is being black. They DO have other things to worry about.. like jobs, health care, schools, war, pollution, etc. If someone was REALLY swayed by a comment Sharpton made, and they didn't take the time to dig deeper into the issue (if it's that important), then their support was weak to begin with. You minimize voters of any group when you reduce them to single issue voters. It's a way to divide America, and continue to exclude black voters from the process.

[Kahuna]

72. Dean may lose even more if what Hannity said today is true...

On Hannity's radio show he said that Vermont did not make Martin Luther King, Jr's birthday a state holiday until 2001. According to Hannity the state legislature took up the initiative to make it a holiday in 2001.

I don't know if it is true or not, but if it is, Dean is indeed the biggest hypocrite I have ever seen. And for the potential flame throwers, MLK'a birthday is not intended to be a "black" holiday. It is intended to celebrate an "American" civil rights leader. Not a "black" civil rights leader.

[Maddy McCall]

74. Kahuna, this needs its own thread

because it is INDEED TRUE. My god, Mississippi has had the MLK state holiday for almost twenty years, a paid day off! And Dean fought it in Vermont. This is HUGE.

Here's a link. Break it in its own thread if you like--it deserves its own thread.

http://www.rutlandherald.com/legislature/leg2000/mlking.html

"I think it's hypocritical for Vermont to say we value diversity and we have a state holiday on Martin Luther King's birthday when we really don't have a state holiday and all state offices are open," Spaulding said. "The state ought to demonstrate leadership and show by example that we're serious about diversity and the memory of Martin Luther King."

The Senate Government Operations Committee agreed with Spaulding, but agreed to hold off on legislation to give the Vermont State Employees Association and the Dean administration time to try to work out a deal.

[Kahuna]

75. Yep it's true alright. But I won't start a thread..

lest I'm accused of accusing Dean of being a racist because he likes to quote Dr. King, but not make his holiday a state holiday like we've had in NJ for ages.

[maddezmom]

73. bet a lot of undecideds are re-thinking

no matter what race they may be.