Why Howard Dean Should Not Be President

[Zomby Woof]

"If the U.N. in the end chooses not to enforce its own resolutions, then the U.S. should give Saddam 30 to 60 days to disarm, and if he doesn't, unilateral action is a regrettable, but unavoidable, choice." -- Howard Dean, February, 2003

Which contradicts a statement you made the same month:

"We believe... I believe that Iraq does have chemical and biological weapons, and they are a threat to many nations in the region, but not to the United States. Therefore in my view, the United States ought not to attack unilaterally."

"We", Howard? Then it was "I believe"? Oh, I think the next quote clears that up:

"Well, first, I have more foreign policy background than Pres. Bush, Pres. Clinton, Pres. Reagan, or Pres. Carter did when they got there. I have been in over 50 countries, lived abroad, and fortunately have an extraordinarily strong team of advisors which have been working with me for a year to develop my views on foreign policy." -- Howard Dean, February, 2003

Aside from your arrogance regarding your experience, Howard, I find your last comment telling. You did not develop your own views on foreign policy, you had them developed for you.

Do you have any convictions of your own? How can you rationalize these contradictory statements about unilateral action, not between October of 2002 and February of 2003, but from the same month, and the latter one at that.

You are a demagogue, Howard. You are taking advantage of a very real and visceral dissatisfaction that many Democrats and quite a few independents, and maybe even a few Republicans, have with the direction George Bush has taken this nation.

I understand that dissatisfaction. I understand the anger you are tapping. I agree that Bush must be removed from office in January of 2005.

But you are not the person to do so.

There is something deeply wrong about misusing peoples' honest anger as a selling point for the highest office in the land. Anger is a fine tool to be wielded with great care, not as a blunt instrument used recklessly. As a doctor, you should get that metaphor. Would you cut open a patient with a chainsaw? That is how corrosive anger is, when unchecked.

You must offer us more than mantras about empowerment, without the specifics to back them up. It makes for good rallies, and what good populist Democrat like myself would not find resonance with that notion? But leave the chants for the Tony Robbins seminars. I want a president, not a motivational speaker. "You've got the power!" is this year's "compassionate conservatism". They are both sky-high rhetoric.

You cannot get away with waffling and backpedalling on the Iraq war issue - advocating unilateral action one day, disavowing it the next, and falsely sell yourself as the "anti-war" candidate.

Your internet fundraising and so-called 'grassroots' organizing is impressive as far as it goes, but it does not go very far at all beyond that. McGovern had the innovative "small mail donation" grassroots gimmick, and we all know what happened there. Any populist campaign financing is great, but until there is real campaign finance reform, it is not enough in the maelstrom of big-money politics. Slick of you to opt out of matching funds and claim that that as "reform", in the name of competing with Bush. So to set an example that what Bush is doing as wrong and undemocratic, you are doing the same, and hiding behind the mantle of populist respectability with blogs and grassroots organizing. Until your appeal crosses over into realms beyond blogging and fundraising 'bats', or easily aroused and vocal throngs of disenchanted Democrats seeking their messiah to redeem the 2000 election - until you do find an audience more interested in substance over easy anger and demagogic rhetoric, "Dean" will replace "McGovern" as the new synonym for landslide defeat.

Speaking of landslides, one region you would need to avoid that fate is the south. Southerners only laughed at you when you made the Confederate flag comment, then laughed even more when you kowtowed to pressure and apologized. Some straight talk there, eh? Made you look weak at an opportune moment for you to show your detractors just what a "tough campaigner" you are alleged to be.

Your so-called fiscal responsibility will not be adequate enough to balance the budget without the commiserate Defense Department cuts.
Repairing relationships with allies is an admirable step, I will grant you that, but under your administration - with all those experts at hand - what we'll have is a return to bribing instead of bullying as our number one strategy, neither being desirable nor unequal in with their long-term net results. You have no vision of what a post-Cold War and post 9-11 foreign policy should entail. It will be the same old reactive foreign policy. You will do nothing to end the vicious cycle of terrorism and retaliation.

Your off-the-cuff commentary style causes you to put your foot in your mouth much too often. It is bad enough we are saddled with that inarticulate fake cowboy in there now, so I think we deserve better than a fake Harry Truman to replace him.

If you truly love this country, Governor Dean, and I have no doubt that you do, please retire gracefully from politics, and serve your fellow citizens in a higher capacity by returning to your private medical practice. Please.

You should never be president of the United States.

[dsc]

1. Does your computer edit

or do you just edit. The first statement assumed that Saddam had nukes, which he clearly didn't. Shame on you.

[Zomby Woof]

2. he shouldn't have assumed Saddam had nukes then

nt

[dsc]

3. He said if Saddam has nukes

then and what you quoted. Are we now to have candidates not use the word if

[Zomby Woof]

5. depends on what your definition of the word "if" is

;-)

[Scott Lee]

16. "if" usually means "provided that it is true"

I'm not sure what it means in the strange world of the frantic Dean opponent, though.

Oh, nice job on all the out of context and misquoted Dean quotes, by the way.

[Democrats unite]

4. Depends which way the wind is blowing on what Dean says

for when he says it.

[Zomby Woof]

6. exactly

He makes those statements conditionally, so he hides behind the cover of nukes in one statement, and the mantle of pacifism in the next.

[aquart]

9. I hope to God my candidate will speak conditionally.

Everything we do SHOULD depend on what the conditions actually are.

George, however, needed a tax cut because we had a surplus, then because we had a recession, then because we had a deficit, then......

No matter what the conditions, George needed that tax cut.

Conditionally is not a sin with me, fella.

[deutsey]

7. No it doesn't

Dean's been fairly consistent since Sept. 2002 when he said that if Bush could make a convincing case that Saddam posed a real threat to the world, he'd back an invasion of Iraq.

[Democrats unite]

8. Fairly consistant at changing.

eom

[deutsey]

12. At changing what?

Dean's been pretty consistent here...he would've supported invading Iraq if Bush had produced convincing evidence that Saddam posed a genuine threat. I was very active against invading Iraq and I knew this a long time ago. I've met Dean and I've done research on him...he's not waivered on this position:

Bob Schieffer: But Iraq now says, over the weekend, that it will not accept tougher rules for inspection. Doesn't that make the case now for the administration?

GOV. HOWARD DEAN, D-VT: Not quite yet. There's no question that Saddam Hussein is a threat to the United States and to our allies. The question is, is he an immediate threat? The president has not yet made the case for that.

I think it may very well be, particularly with the news that we've had over the weekend; that we are going to end up in Iraq. But I think it's got to be gone about in a very different way. It really is important to involve our allies, to bring other people into the coalition, to get a decent resolution out of the U.N. Security Council.

And if Saddam persists in thumbing his nose at the inspectors, we are clearly going to have to do something about it. But I'm not convinced yet and the president has not yet made the case, nor has he ever said, this is an immediate threat.

In fact, the only intelligence that has been put out there is the British intelligence report, which says he is a threat but not an immediate one.

September 29, 2002, Face the Nation
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/09/30/ftn/main523726.shtml

[Cha]

14. Look who is talking about

"changing".

[Hippo_Tron]

42. Well then...

You would have to say the same about Gephardt, Lieberman, Kerry, Edwards, and most likely Clark as well. I hate to break it to you but Dennis Kucinich, as great of a guy as he is, does not have a prayer at winning the nomination or the general election. If you criticize Dean for this then you have to criticize every candidate who has a shot at the white house.

[Zomby Woof]

44. but I can sleep at night supporting DK

Which trumps whether he can win or not - I made no such claim either way.

[mzmolly]

64. He didn't assume shit, he was asked a hypothetical and most educated

people know that. Though you are obviously reaching out to the 'ignorant'.

[bearfartinthewoods]

97. this has been argued over and over..a waste of time since it seems to

be irrelevant:
"Some of Dean’s support may be due to his opposition to the war in Iraq, and more Democratic primary voters are looking for an anti-war rather than a pro-war candidate. 39% of Democratic primary voters say they would prefer a nominee who was opposed to the war, compared to 25% who prefer a nominee who supported it. But 33% say the Democratic nominee’s stance on the war in Iraq doesn’t matter to them.

However, among all voters that sentiment is reversed. 41% of registered voters would prefer a Democratic nominee who supported the war, while about half that number -- 22% -- are looking for an anti-war nominee. "

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/12/23/opinion/polls/main590018.shtml


unless the thought is to now argue dean wasn't against the war at all.

[demgrrrl2004]

13. Shame on you, too!

Uh, look right after THAT quote-Howard Dean stating he believes there IS evidence of weapons of mass destruction!

[AWD]

20. Just more proof....

....that hatred never sees straight.

[graelent]

10. American politics does not work this way

Dean did not flip-flop. There is a difference, that you are either unwilling or unable to see. The UN was enforcing it's resolutions. The UN had weapons instectors on the ground.

Had Iraq kicked out the Inspectors and refused to readmit them, this Dean's demand use of unilateral force would have gone into effect.

This is not a flip-flop. Dean was for letting the UN do their job.

And if you think that there has been a President who relies on input from advisors for every decision they make, then you have no idea how the Presidency functions.

I have been angry about Iraq from the moment Bush got elected, because I could see it coming, and only two candidates have spoken with any force against it. Dean and Kucinich. And Kucinic does not have a snowball's chance in hell of getting the nomination.

Dean's fundraising abilities are unmatched in this race, using them as a tactic against him is ludicrous. The other candidates are morgating their houses, while Dean is ocking away money to take on Bush during the summer.

[BootinUp]

11. Pulling no punches

You spoke the harsh truth Zombywoof. I think its sad that we want a President with integrity problems out and yet our leading candidate uses shady tactics himself. Dean is down the list of candidates for me somewhere around 5th place.

[tsipple]

15. Folks, Not a Good Move to Argue Iraq

First of all, Jesus Christ is not running. If -- see that word! -- Howard Dean misspoke on that occasion, my apologies. I understood him quite clearly, and certainly many others do.

If you're at all confused, feel free to write a letter to the campaign and they'll be happy to clear it up for you with his official position. You can also find plenty of information on Dean's foreign policy views on his web site, Dean for America.

Now, I very firmly believe Dean has articulated his Iraq position more clearly and more consistently than any other major Democratic candidate.

Also, politically it's pretty stupid to keep bringing up Iraq if you're not Howard Dean. When Democratic primary voters look into the matter, they'll see a remarkably consistent set of statements from Howard Dean. And they'll see a remarkably reasonable set of statements, too. They probably won't find that as much with other candidates with the possible exception of Dennis Kucinich.

However, I disagree with Dennis Kucinich's statements -- also consistent statements. I do believe there were possible circumstances when war against Iraq was justified. Those circumstances were not met on this occasion, as Dean has stated, but I am not as absolutist as Kucinich appears to be. If I understand Dennis Kucinich's position correctly, I also disagree with him on his views with respect to Afghanistan.

These are honest disagreements on policy. That's what this campaign should be about.

[MuseRider]

33. I AM confused!

"If you're at all confused, feel free to write a letter to the campaign and they'll be happy to clear it up for you with his official position."

His official position seems to change with enough rapidity that it made this former Dean supporter reel.

Zomby, excellent post. I wish I felt better about Dr. Dean but I simply do not.

[deutsey]

34. Change in what way?

.

[Myra]

63. His official position seems to change frequently.

He's a dynamic guy...in that sense.
Very disturbing.

[bearfartinthewoods]

109. the REAL problem is not even most dems want a candidate

that was against the war. only 39% of dems agree that opposition to the war is something they want in a candidate. not to mention that in the general population that figure drops to 22%.

ya'll are parsing the words of a loser candidate on a losing issue and that is almost a perfect example of a waste of time.

[sistersofmercy]

17. ZW excellent thread! Bravo!

Oh Dean is always EVOLVING, didn't you know that? While other candidates are accused of flip-flops, Dean EVOLVES!

[Democrats unite]

18. LOL

Thanks I needed that!

[deutsey]

19. We see what we want to see, I suppose

:eyes:

[sistersofmercy]

28. Yes I most certainly think one does see what one wants to see

:eyes: :think:

[deutsey]

31. That is more than obvious.

.

[sistersofmercy]

32. Is it now? Would you happened to be typing in front of a mirror?

:think:

[deutsey]

36. No, I wouldn't "happened" to be typing in front of a mirror

At least I hope not, based on what I see here on DU more and more.

[sistersofmercy]

52. Just remember objective criticism is not bashing

*sigh* Objectivity is an invaluable tool. I saw the NH poll a few were posting as proof of Dean's popularity, "in the lead by 30%," the poll was conducted by phone and involved 447 likely voters. Kind of silly, I think.

[deutsey]

80. Ok, I'll do that.

:shrug:

BTW, I think it's really impossible to be "objective", unless you're from planet Vulcan or something. No matter what you do, you have to make a choice to include or exclude something, to arrange your facts in a certain way in order to convey your analysis, i.e., to interpret, which is a subjective activity.

I think it's quite possible, however, to be fair and balanced (and not in the way Fox uses that phrase, but to be conscious of one's own biases and to represent accurately the viewpoints of others, even if you disagree with them). Unfortunatley, I'm not seeing too much of that here lately.

Regarding polls, I don't put a whole lot of stock in them, especially since polls showed Bush getting the popular vote in 2000.

Facts are simple and facts are straight
Facts are lazy and facts are late
Facts all come with points of view
Facts don't do what I want them to
Facts just twist the truth around
Facts are living turned inside out
--Talking Heads

[PatrioticOhioLiberal]

21. WOW

Now that's what I call a well worded VENT!

:yourock:

[Zomby Woof]

45. thanks Pam!

Welcome to DU! :toast:

[KittyWampus]

22. Can I Be Your Love Slave?

:D

If not, I'll have a decaff mocha java.................

[msanger]

35. clark is walking on the flag

shall we drag him over the goals for that. It is SOOOO unpatriotic.

(now, it seems clear to me that the picture in cryingshame's post is not supposed to show clark walking on the flag, which is a major no-no. But in the spirit of this thread, it seems we should move to have him imprisoned or something.)

[Toucano]

55. I thought that too at first.

Then I noticed it was just red and white stripes. No blue field of white stars, so no flag.

Just flag-ish.

[KittyWampus]

60. After We Get Chimpy For Autographing & Thus Defacing Flags

Okay :D

[Zomby Woof]

68. whew

It's late. I thought you said "defecating", but with Chimpy, that would be truthful too! :D

[Zomby Woof]

46. LOL

Well, that position is filled, but you can have ALL the decaf mocha javas you want! :hangover: :hi:

[cryofan]

23. Media is still playing Dean as Outsider, but voters may be catching on to.

THe voters may be catching on that his Vermont record shows him as rather conservative and business-oriented.

And now it is starting to come out that he has been groomed by insiders to take a run for President as long as 2 years ago (see the Dean is Establishment thread).

[deutsey]

25. Where do you get that Dean is being "groomed" by insiders?

I mean an objective link. Are you referring to Carville?

The thread you refer to does not offer any outside source that I could find.

[KittyWampus]

62. Dean Went To Washington Before 2000 Looking Into Presidential Bid

Gore nipped it in the bud because he didn't want the opposition in the Primary... though Bradley went for it.

The way Gore dealt with it was by leaking the info and Dean had to drop it because the voters in Vermont were pissed because he spent so little time there.

This was in the NYTimes the day Gore endorsed Dean. In middle of paper from front page story.

[imhotep]

24. I didn't think DU could get worse

boy was I wrong.

[WiseMen]

26. The SOUL in your impassioned appeal is really appreciated. THANKS

[Hoppin_Mad]

27. "retire from politics" Talk about your sour grapes ! ;-)

Dean WILL be the nominee.

Deal with it.

[5thGenDemocrat]

29. I hope Michigan is a big win or big loss, then

So I'm not forced to have to vote for him.
John
Deal with it.

[Colin Ex]

40. Word to that.

Feeling the same way in Michigan.

[deutsey]

41. Ah, that's the fighting Democratic spirit

:eyes:

[Colin Ex]

57. I don't want to vote

for someone whom I don't like and who I don't trust.

And you call that not being a fighter? BAUGH.

-C

[DemBones DemBones]

66. I hope the same for Georgia (and it will

almost certainly go heavily for Bush) because I do not want to have to vote for Dean.

I held my nose to vote for Gore, am sorry now I didn't vote for Nader. (Those who use Nader as a scapegoat for 2000 should remember that many of us lived in states where Gore was far enough behind that we knew a vote for Nader wouldn't affect the election.) My brother's in another "red" state and he voted for Nader because he opposes NAFTA -- as Democrats should. I don't see him voting for Dean, either.

[dweller]

39. Whoop!

there it is...the new 'Get Over It'.

:eyes:
dp

[Zomby Woof]

48. "Deal with it"?

That is precisely the mentality that motivated my post.

[MidwestMomma]

56. That attitude is turning me off big time...

What's funny is that you have the candidate, Howard Dean, telling people "You have the power" and you have his supporters basically telling people, "You have NO power". The choice has been made...Deal with it.

That's the disconnect that is bugging the heck out of me.

[LWolf]

86. You nailed it.

Ironically enough, Dean's drop in my personal rankings owes as much to some of his supporters as it does to his platform. I don't like derision, and I don't like being patronized.

My choice, and my vote, is just as valid as anyone else's.

[Donna Zen]

94. Amen!

[bearfartinthewoods]

104. wow...an the newbie wins the prize

for cutting through the haze and summing up how i feel.

[windansea]

30. woof!!

i feel a tremor in the force!

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Zomby Woof]

50. but you see

Dean is ALREADY doing that for us. He is ensuring a Dem defeat by virtue of running. That is the point behind real Democrats like me fighting his nomination.

[Armstead]

38. Zombie -- Who would you prefer besides DK?

I agree with DK more than Dean. But the harsh reality is therte are no more miracles that'll get DK the nomination, much less the Whiter House. Sooooo...That's leaves the otehr "major" candidates as the only alternatioves.

Personally of all of them, Dean is IMO the "next best" to a clear, unambiguous liberal like DK. You might not agree, but I don't think bashing Dean is going to help anything, except to help elect Bush.

[citizen snips]

47. You are right.

There is nothing left for DK to do. I think he does not have a chance and he should start supporting the front runner.

[DemBones DemBones]

69. Dennis Kuchinich continues to campaign and

many people will be voting for him in the primaries. We may have a different front runner after the primaries so it would be premature for any candidate to quit now.

[LWolf]

87. There is no front runner

when no vote has been cast. It's the votes that count. There is plenty left for Dennis to do, and I expect him to be in the race when I get to cast my vote for him in California's primary.

If he does not win the nomination, he will support the democrat that does. Even if it's Dean. There is no way he is going to drop out and support Howard Dean before a vote is cast.

[JVS]

82. Your position is the same as mine

Which is why I will vote for Kucinich in the PA primary unless there is a threat to Dean, in which case I'll back Dean.

[Tatiana]

43. Thank you!

This really gets to me. It boggles the mind how many of the SAME Democrats and lefties that reviled Clinton and scream "down with the DLC!" support Dean... who was just as centrist, and just as DLC as governor.

What kind of change can Dean bring about with a Republican-controlled Congress? How many Democratic Senators is Dean going to help elect?

Let's be real. Dean is a centrist. If you want to vote for a liberal, you should be voting for Kucinich. If you want to vote for someone left of center, you should be looking at Kerry, Edwards or even Clark. If you want a centrist, then Dean is your candidate. And there's nothing wrong with him being a centrist! Let's just be honest about it and not paint him out to be something he isn't.

[MidwestMomma]

54. Exactly, if "We have the power" as Candidate Dean says

Then how come all the Democrats complaing about the party moving to close to center didn't throw all their power, support and money to the most liberal candidate,Dennis Kucinich? This greatly puzzles me.

[Tatiana]

61. HELLO!

The secret truth is that some of these people aren't as concerned with dragging the party to the left as they are with venting their rage with the failed policies that have brought us to the disastrous state our nation is currently in. Some of that is due to Clinton, no doubt... NAFTA and Welfare Reform being examples. So you've got this displeasure with Clinton and Bush's failed policies (everything -- you name it: the tax cuts, Medicare "reform," War on Iraq, deficit spending, increase in M-I complex... just everything this guy does, he F's up). That's enough to make anyone deranged with anger.

But what these people don't realize is that anger is good, yes. But after the anger, we've got to figure out how to fix this mess. We've got to elect someone who isn't just gonna talk about how bad things are, how much our policies have failed. We've got to put someone in the White House that is going to stop the insanity and reverse the direction we're headed in. And just electing a President who can do that isn't enough. We need someone who can work with Congress on a bipartisan level to get our agenda passed and someone who can help elect people to Congress that will make passing our legislative agenda a lot easier.

And on top of that we need someone who can go around to all of our traditional allies and say "My bad, Canada, France, Germany, (the UN) and everyone else we've offended with our misguided foreign policy... sorry, I know things were really bad with our preemptive strike policy and all that, but let's work together and figure out how we will make this planet a better, economically strong, more peaceful society for everyone."

Is Dean the person who can do that? Or is there someone else?

[revcarol]

49. I'm glad that someone finally said what I have known all along,

unconsciously, I guess.

I would hit DU and get some pronouncement of Dean's, then be away for maybe a couple of days, then hit another Dean Pronouncement that was very different... on the same subject.

And I would do a double-take,WHAAAA, I thought he said XXXX and now he said YYYY, and they are very close to being opposed to each other!!So I would look back through old threads,,, and sure enough, he said XXXX!!

He sure enough is evolving those positions, or revolving them, if you prefer. I'm sorry I sent him some money.

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Zomby Woof]

53. I'd much prefer a more articulate rebuttal

But hey, if that's the best ya got... :shrug:

[Duder]

58. A more articulate rebuttal...

...would be post #38, imo.

[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RetroLounge]

65. Poop.

lets see: the usual talking points:

Anger? Check.
Waffling? Check.
McGovern? Check.
off-the-cuff? Check.
Confederate flag? Check.
Too Liberal/Too Conservative? Check.
Quotes taken out of context? Check.

Hit post and watch the Circle Jerk begin.

Rule one of the Dean Bash handbook: Recycle old posts and old ideas and hackneyed poop into your own post and repeat ad nauseum until the Primaries... :boring:

_|_

[Zomby Woof]

67. I think what bothers y'all about the "talking points"

Is that there is more than a bit of truth to them.

Cognitive dissonance will cause many to create defense mechanisms like knee-jerk "poop" posts and the pretentious dismissal of these unpleasant truths as "talking points" or "memes".

Believe me, perception counts for a lot in politics, and as long as these perceptions about Dean persist, he will go down in flames.

I am happy to keep these very accurate and valid perceptions alive throughout the primaries. ;-)

[DemBones DemBones]

75. Thanks, Zomby, for telling it like it is.

Nominating Howard Dean would be a triumph for his supporters but they need to realize it would prove to be a disaster for the Democratic Party, the country, and the world.

I hope that the primary results will show that the rank-and-file Democrats reject Dean and support the best Democrat, Dennis J. Kucinich. Once voters start to realize what Kucinich offers them, his support will skyrocket.

No one but Kucinich is offering all Americans single-payer universal health care -- all the other Dema are offering some type of health insurance, not health care.

No one but Kucinich would decriminalize marijuana, for recreational as well as medical use, and stop wasting millions of dollars on prosecuting drug users.

Those two positions alone receive widespread support in the US, and should be enough to win the presidency for him.


If not now, when?

[frustrated_lefty]

76. No.

What concerns me about the talking points is beating Bush. Everything else is secondary.

I am happy to keep this accurate and valid perception alive throughout the primary.

[Terwilliger]

70. wow...you tear Dean down like there's no tomorrow

when are you going to change your sig to reflect your true nominee choice?

[Zomby Woof]

71. what are you implying?

Please come out and say it and don't be shy!

DK is my true choice. You should hear what we say about Dean at the meet-ups. ;-)

I have bones to pick with almost every one of them, but Dean just seems to have earned it a bit more, I think.

[Terwilliger]

78. you have a serious dislike of Dean

that's all well and good I suppose, but as a learned man of history (that's your claim) how could you possibly support a 3 percenter like Kucinich?

[Zomby Woof]

92. I support DK on principle

Besides, my learned historical knowledge also reveals that dark horses are an American political tradition. I love me those underdogs! Especially real human beings like DK.

I don't make grandiose claims about the "inevitability" of his nomination, and I don't insult people for not supporting him.

Face it, Dean's supporters DO do those things, all over the net.

I think Dean is as much of craven liar as Richard Nixon, and I don't care of he claims to be a Democrat. It is a matter of principle to not only support DK (chances be damned), but oppose Dean.

[JVS]

81. Good question

[arewethereyet]

72. oh shoot, just another Howie can't get his stories straight thread

we ALL know that by now.

The Dean faithful choose to ignore it, the rest already know its why the big money will not be coming forward if he's the nominee.

[Zomby Woof]

73. yeah

But I have fun anyway. Just exciting my own base, I guess. ;-)

[arewethereyet]

74. I understand, the surrealness of it is fascinating

damn shame it will have the cost that it will if Howie gets the nod.

But I guess its all about Howie isn't it ?

[Myra]

79. Well, there are undecideds. Not everyone posts.

But I think they've registered about 15% in our straw polls.
And some people are leaning, but not 100% decided.
...

[arewethereyet]

84. true enough

and some portion of them won't decide and just see who wins. and another portion are decided but are disinclined to share thier positions.

I respect all of them, this is a difficult and conflicting event this year especially. So much at stake.

[mitchum]

77. kick for Woof

[DoveTurnedHawk]

83. ZW, You Feel More Strongly About Dean Than I Do

But I share some of the same concerns, especially as they pertain to Republicans' ability to HAMMER him mercilessly in the general election.

DTH

[John_H]

85. Dean SHOULD be President if he wins the nomination

Trouble is he won't.

[LWolf]

88. Wow.

Brave post, Zomby. It's become cyber-risky to oppose Dean, especially with facts. The responses are telling. A few flare-ups, one argument with someone I've ignored, but relatively calm discussion. No cyber-blood drawn yet. It occurs to me that you've come out and publicly stated what many of us think, but we've been quiet about it. We've been keeping under the Dean radar, since there is no "winning" an argument with a Dean supporter, and disagreement sends the anthive into war. Better now than in the general election; if we wait to voice opposition until then, it's too late.

I don't hate Dean. I'll vote for him if I have to. I sincerely hope it will not come to that. I want a complete victory in '04; a victory over Bush, over the shadow corporate government, and a victory on the issues.

[Zomby Woof]

90. Thanks LWolf

I have never been one to be shy about speaking my mind. If I can encourage others to cast off their inhibitions and do the same, I am happy to help. :-)

I really think supporting Dean is a death wish for the 2004 elections, and will dig us deeper into the status quo.


These two things must happen in order:

1. Deny Dean the nomination.
2. Defeat Bush in November.

[LWolf]

93. I'm with you there.

Keep talking.

And Happy Holidays to you and yours!

[eileen_d]

89. ZW, you make some very good points

I want to tell you (ruh-roh! I'm channeling OJ ;) ) that I started reading Kucinich's book "Prayer for America" this weekend. After finishing the introduction and a couple of essays, I found myself PISSED OFF that Dean is painted as the grassroots, populist candidate in this race when Kucinich actuallly has the vision AND THE RECORD to back it up.

After I get my living situation squared away for next month, I am going to donate what I can to Kucinich. The man talks about the kind of America I want to live in. I will continue to support Clark because I think he has a better chance of winning the general election and turning this country around. But once the country is turned around, I definitely want someone like Kucinich to be driving us forward.

As for Dean... you said "Your off-the-cuff commentary style causes you to put your foot in your mouth much too often." I agree with this 100%. Both Clark and Kucinich have visions which they can articulate (Clark does stumble, but then again he's never campaigned before). Dean is like a blank screen onto which his supporters project themselves, as far as I can tell. Every time I look at his positions, his record, etc. -- there is no THERE there. (I can't remember who said that)

Anyway, thanks for your rant, which provoked my own rant. Now, back to reading Kucinich's book.

[Zomby Woof]

91. Hi Eileen!

Glad to hear you are reading DK's book.

I admit I took my time before making my decision, because all of the candidates have to overcome LOTS of objections with me. ALL of them.

Dennis passed the test for the reasons you mentioned - REAL grassroots, REAL progressive ideals. Certainly, I can sleep tonight, and every night, with a clear conscience supporting him.

Dean is a phony and I am quite frankly shocked that he has such zealous support. But then again, Mencken said you could never go broke... ;-)

Hope you enjoy working on Clark's campaign! :hi:

[Donna Zen]

95. A wake-up call

I ran across a blogger's endorsement for another candidate. The blogger made an interesting observation:

It is not a matter of whether or not Howard Dean is electable; it is a matter of why would you want to elect Howard Dean?

It was like a lightbulb flashing on. What does Dean offer that the others aren't? The Democratic wing of the Democratic Party? Well, he's certainly no Wellstone now is he? So it would seem he was offering me a chance to destroy whatever liberal element was left among my party.

Or maybe he's offering me a chance to annoint a whole new group of party bosses, but to what end? So the people will have the power? Don't make me laugh. And what will this NEW Democratic Party look like? Joe Trippi?

The only thing that Dean is offering is to take my money and give me four more years of monkey-rule.

[Zomby Woof]

96. Thanks Donna Zen

Good points, and I appreciate you resurrecting the thread. :-)

[edzontar]

98. Howard Dean not only should, but SHALL be president.

And all of you shall vote for him.

It is written in the stars.

There is no other way.

[Zomby Woof]

99. Zappa must be rolling over in his grave

Pushing a rather conformist groupthink mentality there, aren't you?

I think I may just write myself in if Dean gets the nomination.

[edzontar]

100. Have you no sense of humor, sir?

I rather like your man Kucinich, but have thrown in my lost with the perfectly acceptable Dean candidacy.

So what?

He is not a perfect candiate, surely, but neither is Dennis.

In any event, I shall be supprting whoever wins the primaries, even (*choke) Lieberman, because defeating Bush is the only things that really matters.

[bicentennial_baby]

101. Resistance is futile, eh?

Thanks but, no thanks...

[edzontar]

105. My friend, it is Xmas eve....lighten up a bit!!!

We may support different contenders, but at least in theory, we are in the same party...(I have been a voting Dem for 32 years)

It is a fair fight between the candidates, so let the voting begin and we shall see who wins...till then, spare a moment for a little humor, won't you, and have a good holiday.....

[curse10]

102. This is a great post

fabulous. fabulous. fabulous.

Thank you for putting in to words what I've been thinking for a long while now. :D

[Zomby Woof]

103. I think most of us do feel this way!

But I can understand why some are hesitant to come forth and say so... who enjoys being shouted down, insulted, and harrassed? Ah well, I am immune. ;-)

Thanks Kirsten! :D

[NewYorkerfromMass]

106. Well, I see Dean as an opportunist

and frankly there are men a lot more deserving of the nomination such as Kerry. I do resent Dean taking advantage of liberals as he has, when people such as John Kerry have devoted their entire lives to the cause.

[Zomby Woof]

110. a craven opportunist

Most certainly. The Wellstone wing of the party is bing sold out by Dean. Just wait and see what happens when the chickens come home to roost...

[leftist_rebel1569]

107. Great post, ZW!

Well effing said! :hi:

[ClarkGraham2004]

108. Let's make Dean dead on arrival <sarcasm>

I am a Clark fan too, but this ravaging of other Democrats is not constructive at all.

[Zomby Woof]

111. oh, I forgot

This is the first campaign in U.S. history where intra-party fighting has occurred. Damn me to hell for overlooking that.

Some of us don't like vanilla politics. Some of us don't believe in rolling over before the primaries for the sake of false unity.

I did not "savage" Dean anyway. It is a fair piece as far as these things go.

[stickdog]

112. A Cut & Paste Reply to Your Cut & Paste "Argument"

We once again see this Salon half quote being tossed around to try and claim Dean supported the Iraq war with a 30-60 day deadline, then flip flopped.

“He (Dean) gets a deluge of phone calls from reporters asking him to clarify his position. Which is -- "as I've said about eight times today," he says, annoyed -- that Saddam must be disarmed, but with a multilateral force under the auspices of the United Nations. If the U.N. in the end chooses not to enforce its own resolutions, then the U.S. should give Saddam 30 to 60 days to disarm, and if he doesn't, unilateral action is a regrettable, but unavoidable, choice.”

Now first of all notice the quotes… the underlined part is not an exact quote, but a paraphrase. Although the Dean bashers love to try and trick people into thinking it is an exact quote, because this is what they try to use to claim Dean waffled on his position on the war in Iraq.

The problem is Dean never waffled… his position has been consistently against the war because there was no imminent threat posed by Iraq, and thus no justification for unilateral pre-emptive war. What Dean did support was continuation of the inspection and disarming process, through the UN. And IF weapons were found and if there was a real imminent threat to the America, AND the UN refused to take action… then and only then, would Dean reluctantly support such action.

Now what the Dean bashers do is cut this little bit out of the story and present it as if Dean was saying 30-60 days period… with no prerequisite of an imminent threat. But once again, if you read the few paragraphs before that quote, you see this that the quote has been taken out of context to hide the fact that Dean specifically notes before that statement that there is no imminent threat, and they hadn’t made the case for war.


Hence, today's phone calls. It's Thursday, Feb. 6, the day after Secretary of State Colin Powell's presentation to the United Nations of evidence of Iraq's noncompliance with Resolution 1441. Edwards calls it "a powerful case." Kerry says it's "compelling." Lieberman, of course, is already in his fatigues.

Dean isn't sold. It doesn't indicate that Iraq is an imminent threat, he says.

From Washington come the barbs -- The New Republic calls it proof he's "not serious." ABC News' "The Note" wonders if he's backed himself into a corner. Dean has opposed the pending war because he didn't think President Bush had made his case. If he doesn't support military action now, the thinking goes, then he's just contradicting himself. Or, at the very least, he's been put in an untenable and -- for the moment, at least inside war-ready Washington, unpopular -- position.

He gets a deluge of phone calls from reporters asking him to clarify his position. Which is -- "as I've said about eight times today," he says, annoyed -- that Saddam must be disarmed, but with a multilateral force under the auspices of the United Nations. If the U.N. in the end chooses not to enforce its own resolutions, then the U.S. should give Saddam 30 to 60 days to disarm, and if he doesn't, unilateral action is a regrettable, but unavoidable, choice.


So you see, not only did Dean say that Powell didn’t make the case… in the paragraph just prior they reiterate Dean opposition to the war and ho unpopular of a position that was at the time. It s no wonder the Dean bashers cut that out, it shows they are lying their asses off.

And that begs the question… why do they have to put all this energy into making things up about Dean, finding quotes to spin out of context, and attacking folks who support Dean? Don’t let the bahsers fool you, because they’ll try very very hard to do so.

[windansea]

114. ok how bout these Dean flip flops?

(note..this is a post I copied by NewYorkerfromMass)
1. North Korea

In January, Dean said on CBS' Face the Nation that he approved of Bush's policy towards North Korea and agreed with the president that the approach will be successful.

"I concur with most of the president's policy on North Korea," Dean said, to the surprise of many Democrats and supporters who had criticized Bush's approach. "We have substantial differences on Iraq, but I like the idea and I believe in the idea of multilaterals. And the president's pursuing a policy in cooperation with the Chinese, the Russians, the South Koreans and the Japanese, which we ought to see bear fruition."

Just one month later, Dean flip-flopped without explanation, describing Bush's North Korea policy as "incoherent, inconsistent and dangerously disengaged."

2. Social Security retirement age

At a candidate forum hosted by the AFL-CIO in August, Dean faced criticism from Kucinich for considering moving the Social Security retirement age. Dean responded forcefully that he wanted to "tell everybody that I have never favored Social Security retirement at the age of 70, nor do I favor one of 68."

In 1995, Dean praised then-Sen. Bob Packwood (R-Ore.) for recommending changing the retirement age to 70. At the time, Dean said, "I believe that Sen. Packwood is on exactly the right track." A month later, Dean said "moving the retirement age to 70" was a way to help reduce the deficit and balance the budget.

Far more recently, in June 2003, Dean said on Meet the Press, "I would also entertain taking the retirement age up to 68."

3. Public Financing and Campaign Spending Limits

In March, Dean promised to raise a fuss if any of the other candidates decided to abandon spending limits and skip public financing.

"It will be a huge issue," Dean said in March. "I think most Democrats believe in campaign finance reform.... always been committed to this. Campaign finance reform is just something I believe in." As recently as June 7, Dean wrote to the Federal Election Commission that he will abide by spending limits in the primaries.

Last month, Dean said his campaign was "exploring" the possibility of opting out of the public financing system because of his success in raising money and his desire to spend more in the primaries than his opponents. He said he "didn't remember" making earlier promises to the contrary and said his campaign was free to "change our mind."

(Actually, Dean's flip-flopped on this issue twice. In addition to the recent conversion as a presidential candidate, Dean also did a reverse on spending limits while governor of Vermont. In 1997, Dean helped create a system whereby statewide candidates would agree to a spending cap and participate in public financing. At the time, Dean vowed that the bill would "change the way campaigns are run" in Vermont. When it came time for Dean to run for re-election in 2000 under the campaign finance system he helped create, Dean rejected public financing and exceeded the spending cap by 300 percent.)

4. U.S. trade standards

In August, Dean told the Washington Post that China and other countries could get trade deals with the United States only if they adopted "the same labor laws and labor standards and environmental standards" as the United States. When a reporter from Slate asked if he meant just general "standards" or "American standards," Dean insisted that he would demand that other countries adopt the exact same labor, environmental, health, and safety standards as the United States.

Last week in the DNC debate in Albuquerque, Dean shifted gears and said he doesn't believe that our trading partners have to adopt "American labor standards," saying that international standards would work.

5. U.S. policy on the Cuban trade embargo

Dean, up until fairly recently, was one of many politicians from both parties open to easing trade restrictions with Castro's Cuba. He admitted as much in response to a question from a reporter last month, saying, "If you would have asked me six months ago, I would have said we should begin to ease the embargo in return for human-rights concessions."

According to an Aug. 26 article in the Miami Herald, Dean has "shifted his views" on Cuban trade now that he has "surged to the top of the race" for the Dem nomination. Dean said he believes the U.S. can't ease Cuban embargo restrictions "right now" because "Castro has just locked up a huge number of human-rights activists and put them in prison and show trials."

6. "Regime change" in Iraq

In March, before the U.S. invaded Iraq, Dean sounded a lot like Bush on the possible war, suggesting that disarming Saddam Hussein, with or without the United Nations, should be America's priority.

According to an interview with Salon's Jake Tapper, when Dean was asked to clarify his Iraq position, Dean said that Saddam must be disarmed, but with a multilateral force under the auspices of the United Nations. If the U.N. in the end chooses not to enforce its own resolutions, then the U.S. should give Saddam 30 to 60 days to disarm, and if he doesn't, unilateral action is a regrettable, but unavoidable, choice.

When the U.N. chose not to enforce its resolutions, Bush followed Dean's position and launched a unilateral action against Iraq.

Since then, Dean has held himself out as someone who has opposed the war all along.

7. Death penalty

In 1992, Dean said, "I don't support the death penalty for two reasons. One, you might have the wrong guy, and two, the state is like a parent. Parents who smoke cigarettes can't really tell their children not to smoke and be taken seriously. If a state tells you not to murder people, a state shouldn't be in the business of taking people's lives."

In 1997, his position was beginning to "evolve," but he insisted, "I truly don't believe it's a deterrent."

In June 2003, however, Dean had abandoned his earlier beliefs. He said, "As governor, I came to believe that the death penalty would be a just punishment for certain, especially heinous crimes, such as the murder of a child or the murder of a police officer."

8. Repealing Bush's tax cuts

A year ago, Dean started out saying he'd repeal all of Bush's tax cuts. Asked about how he'd pay for increased spending in health care and education, the Philadelphia Inquirer reported, Dean "doesn't hem or haw" when answering the question. "'By getting rid of the President's tax cut,' Dean says. Not freezing it, mind you -- getting rid of it. All $1.7 trillion worth."

But Dean has not been consistent. In July 2002, Dean said on Meet the Press, "here's a few little things I wouldn't repeal. There are some retirement investment pieces I wouldn't repeal, although I would have to add some so that lower-income workers could help pay for their retirement, not just people like me."

Dean offered a still-different position March 2003, saying his tax policy would be to "repeal the president's tax cuts for people that make more than $300,000, with a few exceptions."

In May 2003, Dean came full circle, saying that he's back to wanting to repeal "all" of the Bush tax cuts.

9. Troop deployment in Iraq

In August 2003, Dean said U.S. troops need to stay in Iraq. "It's a matter of national security," Dean said. "If we leave and we don't get a democracy in Iraq, the result is very significant danger to the United States."

In last week's debate in Albuquerque, Dean completely reversed course, saying, "We need more troops. They're going to be foreign troops, not more American troops, as they should have been in the first place. Ours need to come home."

10. Civil liberties in a post-9/11 America

Shortly after the terrorist attacks of 9/11, while Dean was still governor of Vermont, he suggested a "reevaluation" of civil liberties in America.

Specifically, Dean said he believed that the attacks and their aftermath would "require a reevaluation of the importance of some of our specific civil liberties. I think there are going to be debates about what can be said where, what can be printed where, what kind of freedom of movement people have and whether it's OK for a policeman to ask for your ID just because you're walking down the street."

More importantly, Dean said he didn't have a position on whether these steps would be good or bad. When asked if the Bill of Rights would have to be trimmed, Dean said, "I haven't gotten that far yet."

In March 2003, Dean told The Nation's David Cord that he believes "portions" of the USA Patriot Act "overreach," but added, "I haven't condemned Congress for passing" the legislation.

On August 19, however, Dean accused Ashcroft of taking advantage "of the climate of fear and adopted a series of anti-terror tactics that go far beyond protecting our country and erode the rights of average Americans." He added that the U.S. should "roll back" the USA Patriot Act.

http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/archives/000622.html

[killbotfactory]

116. ...

On NK:

There is a difference between Bush's rhetoric and his actions. Dean liked that Bush was getting other nations involved, but criticized him for not talking directly with NK, and basically ignoring the issue in favor of Iraq, and in his view, not taking the threat of NK more seriously. It was incoherent of the Bush administration to warn of nukes, try and get others to negotiate with them, and then ignore the issue after that.

On SS:

He was wrong when he stated he never favored raising the SS.
But that was nearly a decade ago. Now he doesn't think it is necessary to do, after nearly a decade of proof that you can balance the budget and keep SS afloat without raising the age. "Entertain" is not the same as supporting raising the age limit. If you think changing your opinion after nearly a decade, because of changing conditions and facts, is a bad thing... then draft Jesus Christ, because there is no candidate in the field right now who never changes their opinion based on new facts or condidtions. Why? Because it's idiotic.

On PF:

He's more pragmatic than ideological. If PF is counter-productive to it's original intent, he's not afraid to scrap it. In both cases mentioned this is true, as the campaign finance rules handicap the candidate who accepts public funding and allows the opponent to outraise and outspend them by significant margins.

On Trade:

Okay, he changed his view from American to international. Big whoop. That's not a fundamental change in his position that we need to increase labor and environmental standards with our trade partners.

On Cuba:

Dean changed his view because Castro did a bad thing. Conditions changed. Facts changed. So did Dean's stance.

On DP:

Changing your position over a decade is not flip-flopping. Flip-flopping is going back AND forth on a position in an attempt to pander to every interest group.

Dean still doesn't believe the DP is a deterrent, except that he concedes it might make a criminal less likely to kill a police officer if he's put in that position.

On tax cuts:

He wants to repeal the tax cuts and start over, including making taxes fairer to the lower/middle classes. This is probably because he has a fully developed health plan and has come up with several proposals which he needs to pay for, and it's easier to say "repeal it all", than to say "repeal it all except this and this and this". I don't find it particularly concerning or horrible.

On troop deployments:

His position has always been we need to rebuild a democratic Iraq with the help of the UN, NATO, and out other allies. Saying we need more troops doesn't exclude foreign troops.

Nevermind that saying our troops need to stay, and calling on foreign troops to come in aren't mutually exclusive.

On 9/11:

Calling for a debate on civil liberties of the kind he's talking about, after 9/11, is not the same as supporting curtailments on civil liberties or supporting the PATRIOT act.

[Zomby Woof]

117. excellent job!

Thanks windansea!

[windansea]

118. thank NewYorkerfromMass

I just copied his post from another thread cuz it seemed relevant to your post.

The jihad must go on!!

[killbotfactory]

115. Hey, that's objective analysis!

Now watch as people ignore you and then complain that Dean supporters are irrational for not acknowledging the "fact" that Dean is a flip-flopping war supporter who's a puppet of an AIPAC/PNAC/ROVE Cabal funded by the illumanti to suppress electable candidates like Lieberman.

[killbotfactory]

113. What nonsense.

The first quote is Dean saying he would be prepared to act unilaterally IF Saddam was not disarming and the UN refused to do anything about it.

Unless you had amnesia during the first few months of the year, you should recall that Saddam was complying, and the UN was acting, and there was no proof Saddam had much of anything.

The second is Dean saying Saddam doesn't present an imminent threat to the US, so we should not go in unilaterally, seeing as the INSPECTIONS WERE WORKING AND THE UN WAS ACTING, this is a reasonable view to take.

What's more important (you know, other than parsing words, deliberately confusing hypothetical questions with reality, and taking quotes out of context) Is that he stood up to Bush and opposed the war during a dark time in our nations history when most of the party leaders sold us out. If Dean was trying to have it both ways, or flip-flop, he would have done so. Instead, he has kept to his message that the Iraq war was wrong, despite all the doomsday predictions about his campaign being the next McGovern.

Also, every candidate has advisor's. Dean asks them probing questions to get to the bottom of the issues, which is why he didn't believe Iraq was a threat to the US. That is how he was developing his views on foreign policy, it wasn't being written for him. If it was, he would adopt the same FP as Kerry, or Edwards, or Lieberman, or any of the others who accepted the conventional wisdom uncritically.

Sorry for interrupting anti-Dean echo chamber. Please continue.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

119. Wow you forgot to burn the Christmas tree down too!

:D

[Zomby Woof]

120. I left the damn lighter...

On the hood of your car! :D

[flaminbats]

121. If this is how you feel, then join "the Stop-Dean Movement".

And never mind that Dean supporters, Clark supporters, Kerry supporters, Gephardt supporters, or Edwards supporters should first be uniting around some basic principles before supporting their candidates. This negative campaign will only accomplish the destruction of our candidates while electing the crackhead as pResident.

But this movement is so inspirational that I may join the Kerry or Clark campaigns just out of spite! I want a nominee chosen by a brokered convention, not one elected by primary voters.

<http://www.pejmanesque.com/archives/004886.html>

[Zomby Woof]

124. I am my own Stop Dean movement

And hey, welcome to DU. :loveya:

[flaminbats]

125. Thanks, somehow I feel more at home here.

:toast:
You don't have to be no fish to tell when you're flounderin'
What am I? Some kind of barnacles on the dinghy of life?
I ain't no doctors but I knows when I'm losin' me patiensk
What am I? Some kind of judge, or a lawyers?
Aw, maybe not; but I knows what laws suits me
So what am I? I ain't no physciscisk, but I knows what matters
What am I? I'm Popeye, the sailor


And I yam what I yam what I yam and I yam what I yam and that's all that I yam 'cause I yam what I yam

And I gots a lot of muskle and I only gots one eye
And I never hurts nobodys and I'll never tell a lie
Tops to me bottoms and me bottoms to me top
And that's the way it is 'till the day that I drop
What am I?
I yam what I yam!

I yam what I yam what I yam what I yam what I yam

I can open up an ockean I can take a lot of sail
I can lose a lot of waters and I'll never have to bail
I can pushk up Madagascar grab a whale by the tail
What am I?
What am I?
I yam what I yam!

[polpilot]

126. Kerry/Gep/Joe can enlighten you as to your chances to 'stop Dean'.

Dean '04...

[Name removed]

122. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Zomby Woof]

123. Yeah, dammit, the jig is up!

You found me out. I am William Pitt! Float that theory around DU and see what kind of reaction you get.