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burning bush Donating Member (539 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 04:14 AM
Original message
Kerry over Clark
For those of you who want a national security candidate with military honors, or who feel that Dean just can't beat Bush, I ask you to reconsider the candidacy of John Kerry.

The man, though he had a bad vote on IWR, has dedicated his life to progressive politics and to the various plights of veterans.

Kerry has a SOLID history of Democratic participation, and has been on the right side of justice many more times than he has ever been near the wrong. He is a known good in the Democratic party, and can be counted on to be a progressive force for good well into the future.

If you currently support Clark, but are conmcerned about his ties to the Neoconservative movement that has overtaken the Republican party and threatens to destroy our American Republic, then please, look again to John Kerry.

With your support, Kerry can take the "Anti-Dean" mantle, combine it with the growing "Anyone but Clark" base, and make an excellent showing in New Hampshire to carry on through Feb and March.

I'm a Dean supporter, but if ai had to chose other than Dean, I wouldn't be able to chose Clark. Kerry, however, has Clark's positives, as well as his own, and carries none of Clark's baggage that I'm aware of.

Vote Dean, and if you can't vote Dean, Vote Kerry. Or Edwards. Or Lieberman. Or Kucinich.

But please, before you vote Clark, read bout what the man has said and done in his quest for an Emerica Empier
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kerrygoddess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 04:18 AM
Response to Original message
1. Thank you
Kerry is very progressive!
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Hoppin_Mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 04:20 AM
Response to Original message
2. I would have NO trouble choosing Kerry over Clark ! -nt-
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kayleybeth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 04:25 AM
Response to Original message
3. I'm with Clark for the primaries
but John Kerry would make a fine president. He is tied with Edwards for my second choice. If Clark, Kerry or Edwards doesn't get the nomination I will vote for the Democrat in the general election. ABB!!
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 04:26 AM
Response to Original message
4. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
isbister Donating Member (902 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 04:26 AM
Response to Original message
5. Can I ask...
why was the IWR bad, or wrong?

I was the most anti-war person I ever met (Mom said I hated America 'til I turned her from the dark side). I just don't 100% get why it was a "bad" vote and I really don't understand the opposition to Kerry's position at the time.
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burning bush Donating Member (539 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 04:55 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. I can't speak for all, but I opposed the IWR because
It was an open book/blank check for Bush to fight an undeclared war, it was supported by false information, outdated sources, and outright lies, because it encouraged America to act unilaterlly against a sovereign nation that posed no immediate threat, and because it diverted our attention from the war we should have been fighting - the war against the perps of 9/11.

The IWR was an attempt to justify a lie.
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 04:47 AM
Response to Original message
6. Clark and PNAC
I knew I saved the below prior post for a reason. Let's see, you said:

"If you currently support Clark, but are conmcerned about his ties to the Neoconservative movement that has overtaken the Republican party and threatens to destroy our American Republic..."

You're not one of those people who are all bent out of shape by the Neocom Project for a New American Century (PNAC), are you?

Me too.

Clark has been among the most prominent whistle blowers against PNAC, and the most effective mainstream opponent of it. On another thread someone directly accused Clark of supporting PNAC's plans. So I put together the following long post about Clark, and his opposition to PNAC's plans (you know, taking over the Middle East and Northern Africa and all of that). It's long, I warn you. By the way, before I paste it below, You aren't one of those Dean supporters trying to booste other candidates against Clark because Clark is poised to challange Dean across the South and West on Feb. 3rd, fresh from a second place finish in New Hanpshire, are you? No, I suppose not.

For the record I have nothing against Kerry, I could support him or Dean for President. Anyway here it is:


This is taken from a September 23rd 2003 article

"Clark says after the 11 September 2001 attacks, many Bush administration officials seemed determined to move against Iraq, invoking the idea of state sponsorship of terrorism, “even though there was no evidence of Iraqi sponsorship of 9/11 whatsoever”.

Ousting Saddam Hussein promised concrete, visible action, the general writes, dismissing it as a “Cold War approach”.

Clark criticises the plan to attack the seven states, saying it targeted the wrong countries, ignored the “real sources of terrorists”, and failed to achieve “the greater force of international law” that would bring wider global support.

He also condemns George Bush’s notorious Axis of Evil speech made during his 2002 State of the Union address. “There were no obvious connections between Iraq, Iran, and North Korea,” says Clark."

Found on Independent Media TV: http://www.independent-media.tv/item.cfm?fmedia_id=2654&fcategory_desc=The%20Project%20for%20a%20New%20American%20Century


This is taken form a long thoughtful review of Clark's book "Winning Modern Wars". The review is on a Pro Clark Web site, but the reason they are Pro Clark includes his position vis a vis PNAC:

"Clark describes the decision by the Executive branch to escalate the war and concludes:

"And so, barely six months into the war on terror, the direction seemed set. The United States would strike, using its military superiority; it would enlarge the problem, using the strikes on 9/11 to address the larger Middle East concerns; it would attempt to make the strongest case possible in favor of its course, regardless of the nuances of the intelligence; and it would dissipate the huge outpouring of goodwill and sympathy it had received in September 2001 by going it largely alone, without support of a formal alliance or full support from the United Nations...."

"Clark spends time to detail some of the inside apparatus of policy making - taking the time to explain the importance of the quadrennial National Security Strategy of 2002 - before getting to his main thrust. Because Iraq was not organically connected to the terrorist attacks of 9/11 - the mission had to be sold as being a short strike to overthrow an imminent threat. This precluded an honest assessment of the costs and benefits of overthrowing Saddam, and therefore, when the invasion ended, and the occupation began - everyone was underprepared, including those who had backed the war policy. In order to convince the American people this was another "in and out" along the lines of Grenada, Panama, Haiti and the first Gulf War - the preparations for the occupation had to be minimal - lest they betray foreknowledge of the real cost. It smacks of Hitler failing to order winter uniforms for Operation Barbarossa, the invasion of the USSR.

In tomorrow's entry will be on the remainder of Clark's argument, where Clark turns the corner - from accusing Bush of following long standing misguided dream by the far right wing in the form of the Project For A New American Century, and hence producing a failed policy, and an occupation which everyone denied until we were engaged in it - to a larger problem of America as an Empire."

Unfortunately I got that from an archive site and can't find part two of the review. Here is the link:
http://www.draftclark.com/archives/004406.shtml


Some more stuff, this from May 15th 2003 newpaper coverage of a talk by journalist Richard Dreyfuss:

"The image of the United States has changed in the eyes of the world,” Dreyfuss said. “We are no longer viewed as the beacon of democracy, but as the bully on the playground that picked on the weakest kid to beat up in order to intimidate others.

Dreyfuss is an award-winning independent journalist whose cover article in the April issue of American Prospect magazine, “Quicksand: Iraq is Just the Beginning,” was the title for the forum. His articles on national and foreign affairs appear routinely in The Nation, Rolling Stone, Mother Jones and other publications...

In his American Prospect article, Dreyfuss wrote: “Six years ago, in its founding statement of principles, PNAC called for a radical change in U.S. foreign and defense policy, with a beefed-up military budget and a more muscular stance abroad, challenging hostile regimes and assuming `American global leadership.’” It was signed by Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Cheney’s chief of staff I. Lewis Libby and Gov. Jeb Bush, the president’s brother, among others. “The PNAC statement foreshadowed the outline of the president’s 2002 national security strategy,” he wrote.

The invasion of Iraq, as a component of this strategy, was not supported by many in the U.S. military, including Gen. Zinni and Gen. Wesley Clark, former head of the Allied Command, Dreyfuss noted, and top levels of the CIA, who knew there are no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq nor government ties to al Qaeda. terrorists."

The Link: http://www.fcnp.com/310/story4.htm


Finally here are some very relevent quotes from an article trying to make Clark out as a crack pot for EXPOSING the extent of PNAC influence. This from October 2, 2003:

"Candidate Derides Committee That Crafted Cold War Victory"

General Wesley Clark, the late entry into the race for the Democratic nomination for president, is making what critics called a “bizarre,” “crackpot” attack on a small Washington policy organization and on a citizens group that helped America win the Cold War...

... Relatively few American voters have even heard of the Project for a New American Century or remember the Committee on the Present Danger, so the flap is unlikely to sway many votes immediately. But if the interview contributes to a sense of General Clark as something of a loose cannon, that might have an effect on voters seeking a steady leader to guide the nation in the war against terrorism...

...A director of the Project for a New American Century, Randy Scheunemann, called General Clark’s comments “bizarre.”...

... “This is a guy who could barely win a war in Kosovo,” Mr. Scheunemann said. “Now Wesley Clark is running for president by running against a think tank?”

Here's that link: http://daily.nysun.com/Repository/getFiles.asp?Style=OliveXLib:ArticleToMail&Type=text/html&Path=NYS/2003/10/02&ID=Ar00100


Oh by the way, concerning that "bizzare" "crackpot" terminology used against Clark, check out this link to a great buzzflash interview with the co-author of "Hunting the President", Gene Lyons where he outlines the attack campaign the Republicans will use against Clark, among other things. This from October 22, 2003:

BUZZFLASH: You're probably one of the most well-informed journalists on how attack politics play themselves out with a culpable media, based on your extensive research and writing on the Clintons. How do you think the right wing is going to go after Clark? What can he expect? What advice would you give Clark and the people who are working for him?

LYONS: Well, the outlines of it are already evident. They're saying he's too tightly wrapped, which is kind of akin to what they tried to do with John McCain. They're saying he's a zealot and tends to become unhinged. They're suggesting he's crazed with ambition.

I wrote in a column a couple of weeks ago that one of their lines of attack would be to portray him as sort of General Jack D. Ripper, who was the megalomaniacal general in Dr. Strangelove who was so concerned with his precious bodily fluids. And that's what I think they will try to do. They might go all the way to the edge of suggesting some kind of mental illness. I don't think he's very vulnerable to that sort of smear."
That link: http://www.buzzflash.com/interviews/03/10/int03221.html


Shall I repeat the right wing smear against Clark for trying to expose PNAC? Yes, I think so: "General Wesley Clark, the late entry into the race for the Democratic nomination for president, is making what critics called a “bizarre,” “crackpot” attack on a small Washington policy organization and on a citizens group that helped America win the Cold War."

And what thanks does Clark get for his trouble? Smears against him here at the Democratic Underground for having NeoCom ties.



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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 05:22 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. I know....
Edited on Wed Jan-14-04 05:38 AM by Frenchie4Clark
It's pitiful!:shrug:
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kayleybeth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 05:24 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. Thanks for posting this, Tom
Some people don't want to see the truth. The other day someone posted a thread citing an article Clark had written for Washington Monthly a few months ago. They quoted one out-of-context passage from a very long article and cited that as "proof" that Clark was part of the PNAC cabal. Of course the usual suspects had to pipe in and shout "AHA!" but apparently none of them bothered to read the entire article, which in reality actually exposed and condemned the neocon agenda and called for a multilateral approach with war as a last resort only.

I realize some people have legitimate concerns about Clark being so new to the Democratic party. But the people who are trying to make Clark out to be some kind of neocon bogeyman are way off the mark. One of the reasons Clark is running for president is that he knows how dangerous the neocon movement is, and he wants to put them out of business. I can't say for sure whether or not the other candidates have spoken out about PNAC, but if they have, I haven't heard anything about it. I know Clark is talking. Instead of smearing him, DUers should be applauding his efforts to expose the neocons for what for they are. As far as I know, he's the only one of our candidates who is doing so.
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w13rd0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 05:37 AM
Response to Reply #6
11. Well, what's interesting...
...is that PNAC had this website, and it's been around for a while. Hell, they wrote a letter to Clinton, lobbied the European nations, drummed up this guy named Chalabi, to support their agenda. But all of Clark's comments you cite, well, they are all fresher than his Democratic membership card, which, might I remind you, is damned fresh. All of the comments you cite are within the lifetime of his candidacy, or the several months of consideration beforehand (back when he was deciding which Party's nomination he'd run for, because everyone knew, he could easily win the nomination of either Party). Not that I think we need to go back to comments people made 4-5 years ago, but usually we like a little more breathing room than 2 years. If Jeffords suddenly announded he'd like to run for the Democratic nomination, I would expect that he'd be met with a fair amount of skepticism, despite his being a very good man, and I so thank him for switching parties. But we're talking even fresher than that.

PNAC wrote a letter in 1998 lobbying Clinton to invade Iraq. They seem like the sorts that might plan in advance. Maybe even years in advance.
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kayleybeth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 05:52 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. I'm not going to argue with you, w13rd0
You have obviously made up your mind about whom you will support. That's fine, I'm not bashing anyone's candidate and I'm not trying to talk anyone out of their choice. I'm just pointing out that these people who smear Wesley Clark for being a neocon are either woefully misinformed or knowingly spreading crap in order to advance their own candidate in the primaries.

Kerry is a great guy and I am not trying to talk anyone out of voting for him. But the reasons the original poster cited for why DUers should switch to Kerry over Clark are at best misleading and at worse outright false.

It should also be pointed out that Kerry overtaking Clark in the NH primaries will benefit the original poster's own candidate, Dean.
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 06:13 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. You know, it is impossible to disprove the existence of the unknown
That's the problem with this type of suspicion. Heck, you can't even prove that I'm not secretly arrived from a distant galaxy.

Prior to fairly recently Clark was of course in active service. You may have noticed that it is generally the rule in America that high ranking military officers don't go around making independent public policy statements, or otherwise inject their personal views into the arena of public political debate.

Of course, Clinton didn't invade Iraq despite the PNAC letter. Clark had an excellent working relationship with Madelein Albright, Clinton's Secretary of State. Why is that do you suppose? Could be she's a secret PNAC supporter I guess. Clark was the foremost military commander associated with promoting multinational oversight of U.S. military engagements. He was virtually a bleeding heart liberal ready to send American boys to fight to save the lives of poor Africans in Rwanda, within a United Nations peace keeping mission for heaven's sake! Not a drop of oil to be found.

Do you remember all the disdain the Bush team during the 2000 campaign had for using our military for "nation building" efforts? Where do you suppose that type of thing was going on? Try Haiti, Bosnia, and Kosovo, certainly not in the middle east. Bush and company virtually sneered at everything Clark was involved in; Peace Keepers, humanitarian missions, moral imperatives, multi-national forces, oversight and sanction by International organizations. That's certainly not from PNAC's play book. Clark made real enemies in the Pentagon, we all know that story by now, in large part because of the emphasis he placed on everything PNAC wanted no part of.

There is a record to be looked at. No, Clark wasn't in elected office giving policy speeches with one hand and taking special interest contributions with the other. So yes there are fewer printed words by Clark to point to now. You of course have a valid point that Clark is newly arrived to partisan politics, which is unusual, and it requires a certain leap of faith by those who have lived partisan politics for many years to embrace Clark as a potential Democratic Presidential nominee. Some will refuse to support him for that reason, and it is an understandable position to take, though one I disagree with. However unlike you I suppose I see that the statements that he is currently making against PNAC are completely consistent with the positions that he advocated in the military, and it is reverse McCarthyism to argue the opposite devoid of facts, beyond the types of tortured and/or casual associations that Old Joe himself was so willing to damn people for.
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w13rd0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 07:10 AM
Response to Reply #13
16. Yes, I remember Bush's comments regarding nation building...
...but he's certainly put the lie to that now, hasn't he. Problem he had was that he thinks nation building should be accompanied by the splitting of the spoils. Yeah, it requires a "leap of faith", one I'm just not willing to make on a lobbyist who seems to only recently had his political policies 'crafted'...I appreciate your more reasonable defense of him, which is why I'm responding to you and why I can read what you have to say in the first place.

And what's that about faith and works and trees and fruits?
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 05:35 AM
Response to Original message
10. I am sorry, but given a choice between Kerry and Clark...
Edited on Wed Jan-14-04 05:36 AM by IndianaGreen
I will choose Clark. I think Kerry has been living off his resume for far too long. What has Kerry done for me lately? Kerry voted for PATRIOT and for IWR. Kerry was also among those that chided Dean for contradicting Bush on the assertion we were "safer" with Saddam captured.

Kerry's disgusting conduct during the primary debate leaves me convinced that he truly supports Bush's PNAC agenda. Lieberman is right when he said that Kerry was trying to have it both ways in Iraq.

I think it is significant that I am among many others that are willing to take a chance with Wes Clark, despite some reservations I have about him, over a Kerry that we are so familiar with. Perhaps it is unfair! Perhaps we should trust Kerry's proven liberal credentials over the neophyte Clark. Perhaps we should hold Kerry accountable for his Iraq vote and support someone with better national security credentials than him.
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Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 06:27 AM
Response to Original message
14. Thanks alot for your friendly advice
but I think I will stick with my candidate just the same. Besides, those PNAC checks really help with the house payments.
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 06:56 AM
Response to Original message
15. Yes, ABC&L. (nt)
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Rowdyboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 07:24 AM
Response to Original message
17. If Clark falters, I certainly respect Kerry to give him my vote
But Clark's not going to falter...Wes is gonna win this thing...
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