Why should I be happy that the attacks against Dean worked?

[skjpm]

People seem thrilled that the polls are turning around. Well, that's because the slander, misrepresention, and even lies against Dean have worked. That this level of vituperation and negativity works to destroy a candidate should please no one. I am angry at the Democrats who rejoice that these tactics work. I am almost angry enough not to vote for a Democrat, and if Bush weren't so evil, I probably would vote third party. So, I don't think that the Democrats who have piled on Dean have done anyone any good and it's sad that anyone would be excited that this happened.

[Caution]

1. While I agree in principal

The fact is that it is better to get all of this stuff out now, in the primaries so that the campaigns can come up with strategies to combat the attacks. The republican party is going to go all out on the attack as soon as the nomination is clear. I'd rather that the eventual nominee be prepared for all of the potential attacks and thta his campaign have more time to prepare these defenses. It makes for ugly politics, but the Bush criminal gang is full of ugly people.

[MuseRider]

5. I agree with you.

We have to be very thick skinned (difficult to do this sometimes) but this is how it works. If Dean does not win then that is the will of the party. All of this stuff has to be hashed out. Better to do it now and be prepared. If any one of our candidates can't hold up to it then they probably will not be a good choice. It is so early, I would not worry too much about it yet.

[Tatiana]

12. Excellent point! N/T

[bearfartinthewoods]

56. agreed. the purpose of the primary is as a contest

of ideas and endurance and preperation for what lies ahead.

if you plan to sail around the world, you first do some shakedown cruises so that kinks in the system are found and fixed before they become fatal.

[KaraokeKarlton]

107. Well, if the stuff were true it would be good to get out early and deal

with it. Unfortunately, most of the attacks we've seen against Dean aren't true.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

2. What About the Democrats Who Are Mad at Dean?

I am happy Dean is dropping in the polls because I view him as a very poor general election candidate, and because I have major problems with various elements of his character and personality.

Like you, I would have to seriously grapple with whether I would vote for Dean in the general election, and there are also many others who are like me. I would wager, in fact, that there are more Democrats and Independents who would not vote for Howard Dean (while they would vote for some other Democratic candidate), than there are Dean supporters who would not vote for some other Democratic candidate (while they would, of course, vote for Dean).

And what about Howard Dean's attacks? He has hardly been some innocent in all of this, quite the contrary. What about the Democrats who have NOT attacked Howard Dean? Will you have a problem voting for them?

DTH

[bearfartinthewoods]

68. i can't agree with the word 'mad'

there is an old saying 'you can curse your mule until the sun sets but he will never be a horse'.

dean is what he is and me being mad at him for that is sort of senseless. that's not to say i'm not turned off by him or the way he has handled his campaign. it's a subtle difference but a difference none the less.

the change in his alledged supremacy is thrilling to me since i think we may yet get a candidate that is better suited to beat bush than dean. i'm sleeping much better nowadays.

[lastliberalintexas]

76. And when those very same tactics

are used by Dems as well as the RW to tear down Edwards, how will you be sleeping then?

I don't think the original poster meant what s/he said *only* in defense of Dean. What about the next frontrunner? First they did it to Kerry, then Dean, then who? Who will be the next fine person/candidate we allow this to happen to in our short sighted goal of getting *our* guy's name on the ballot?

[DoveTurnedHawk]

82. Ironically, I Think the Front-Loaded Primary Schedule May Stop That

Dean has been torn down because he was the front-runner for so long. Now that things are becoming fluid, the next front-runner after Dean (assuming there is one) will benefit from the abbreviated, front-loaded primary schedule. Sure, there will be a flurry of attacks, but they will look desperate, and then suddenly the primaries will be mostly over.

DTH

[lastliberalintexas]

100. Maybe, maybe not

There is still plenty of time for the attack machines to start working on the next stiff- and it's likely to be your guy. It's worked fairly well against Kerry and Dean (tho I still don't write either of them off), there's nothing to say it won't work against Clark too. While you'd expect attacks from the RWers, you'll have no idea how to respond to those from people supposedly on your side of the aisle.

But at least I'm glad to know that you won't be complaining when it happens to Clark. After all, everything is apparently fair game now, since this is just primary stuff. :-)

[DoveTurnedHawk]

103. Clark Knows Exactly How To Respond

He keeps it positive, and he points out the other candidates' negativity.

And I never once said "everything is apparently fair game," I actually despise negative campaigning. That's yet another reason I love Clark.

DTH

[lastliberalintexas]

109. Sorry- I forgot

that nothing will work to bring down Clark. He's Superman without the kryptonite weakness. :eyes:

I'm glad that you apparently think him staying positive will deflect, minimize or eliminate the attacks. Pardon me if I think that's hogwash. I asked a legitimate question about how others' supporters will respond when these kinds of attacks are aimed at their guy, and what I get is the same old apparent unwillingness to concede that their guy may actually have a few flaws.

Peace to you DTH. Hopefully we will be voting for the same person in Nov. :-)

[DoveTurnedHawk]

110. Consider This

Despite a week or more of vicious negative campaigning by Dean and others against Clark in NH, Clark still has the highest positives and lowest negatives among NH voters.

Is he Superman? Maybe not. But he's got more teflon than Iron Man. :-)

DTH

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

136. Hate to break it to you....

...Clark hasn't even been touched yet. You'll know it when he has been.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

138. You're Right, He Hasn't Been Touched, But It's Not for Lack of Trying

His opponents appear quite desperate to slow his momentum in NH.

DTH

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

139. Not talking about his opponents.

[bearfartinthewoods]

146. probably not well

as i was watching Edwards supporters chanting 'it's our time now' i admit to thinking about the press and DU.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

83. Fair Statement

I shorthanded "mad" because it was in the subject line. :-) But I agree, "turned off" is probably a better term.

DTH

[Hep]

3. This has put us in a tough position

Now we have to sell out our principles of common decency in order to defeat Bush. I'm in the exact spot you are. Except I'm beginning to wonder if I really have to sell out just to keep those who put me in this position satisfied. Why the hell not abstain?

[TexasPatriot]

11. you dont abstain

for the same reason i don't Hep... the dem may be the last dem on your list - below LaRouche and the even-scarier ones (yes, there are those out there) - but we have to vote. Bush is really that bad, and though we may each be upset at the choice presented - it's really not a tough decision in the end.

[Hep]

15. orry, but I don't have to sell my soul just to appease those

who made this so hard in the first place.

[Demobrat]

22. I'm right there with you.

Before the primaries I was ABB. Now I'm NBD. There's no way I'm rewarding any of the others with my vote. I'd rather move to Canada.

[TexasPatriot]

26. Ok Hep

you and i are different animals... i guess i just believe Bush is that big a nightmare and i have a responsiblity to do what i can to stop it. if you dont feel that way its your right. i hope i never get to the point i feel that way about Dean - i know there are days where i can sense it.

[Hep]

32. Please don't get me wrong.

I'm not NBD. I respect anyone's position even if it is ABD. There are several candidates that I will vote for. Honestly, my mind could change tomorrow.

[dajabr]

34. Seriously Hep, I've been thinking about it all day.

This may or may not be my last vote as a registered Democrat. I'm thinking more and more that if Dean or Kucinich does not get the nod, I'll be voting Third Party or write-in. If The General is the nominee, it will be much more likely that I do so.

I'm about 90% sure of this, I feel sick when thinking about rewarding those who have sold us out so much since Bush took office.

The Party needs to change, and either the Bush Appeasers go, or I will.

As I'm writing this I'm thinking, "I can't believe I'm in the same Party as Zell Miller"

:wtf:

[lastliberalintexas]

69. I agree

As of right now, I still think I'll vote Dem this year- even if it is Clark. But this is it. If our "leaders" can't understand that the repubs are playing hardball in a major league stadium while we're still playing neighborhood stickball, then something's got to give.

The last 3 years have shown me nothing new about Shrub and his cohorts- I live in Texas, after all, and KNEW how bad they were. What they *have* shown me, though, is how little fight is left in our party "leaders." Unless that changes, the Dem party will have to start actually earning my vote away from 3rd parties. Not that it will matter much anyway, since if we don't grow a backbone the Dem party won't be around forever anyway.


I understand why Daschle has to be as conservative as he is- South Dakota is not California after all. But why should that man be the leader of our party in the Senate? Feingold, Boxer, Leahy, Harkin or even Reid have stood up to this administration more than Daschle. Yet, he is the public face of our party, and the one urging other Senate Dems to capitulate. It just doesn't make any sense.

[TLM]

71. I do not think the democratic party realize that Dean's the last chance

He is the last chance at maintaining the party... if Dean or DK don;t get the nod, and someone like kerry or Clark does... the left end of the party will bail.

The greens are gone... the left end dems who have been on the fence, are gone. The party will fracture on the left and move to the right.

Leaving the pukes in power for another decade or two.

[blm]

72. Where was "common decency" when Kerry was laid up during cancer surgery

and recovery and DOCTOR Dean chose that time to start up his attacks on him? THAT was good character to you? Dr. Dean was unaware that the surgery and recovery period should be as stress free as possible for a patient? Especially since that patient had recently lost both his parents - Common decency?

Why lecture us about "common decency" when Dean marched next to a sign that read Kerry = Bush.

[cprise]

87. Kerry advocated an illegal War, and Dean did the decent thing

Personal tradgedy does not overshadow an issue like that.

Yes, even that is a lame excuse compared to over 10's of thousands dead and the spread of terrorism.

[blm]

96. Really? Dean supported a resolution that would have led to war,

so he was being a HYPOCRITE while accusing the others for supporting a resolution that did the same.

Dean now supports middle class taxcuts, so he was being a HYPOCRITE while attacking others for keeping middle class taxcuts.

The IWR adopted much of the same guidelines as Biden-Lugar.


I found this breakdown comparing the B-L and IWR and Dean's rhetorical hole-digging on a Clark blog. Don't think Rove doesn't have all this on file, in fact EVERY word Dean has said on this is on file at the RNC. Count on it.
>>>>>>>

There are two parts required of the President.

The second part first:
Biden Lugar restricted the authorization of force to UN WMD resolutions against Iraq and the broader concept of self-defense or mutual-defense.

The actually passed resolution (Public Law 107-243) restricted the authorization to use force to - relevant UN resolutions (including repatriation of war detainees and Kuwaiti treasures, the resolution of the fate of our MIA pilot, and the repression of the population), self-defense or mutual-defense, and the nebulously defined war on terror.

Now the first part - the President had to merely inform Congress that there was no other way but to use force against Iraq regarding the above mentioned restrictions.  The only difference between the reporting requirement Biden-Lugar and 107-243 was a time constraint;  Biden-Lugar required notification prior to the use of force, 107-243 allowed up to 48 hours after initiating force to inform Congress.

The actual text in both resolution can be parsed almost exactly like this:

"The President shall make available his determination that...."

Here's the actual 'trigger' for the President to use force:
---------------
Biden-Lugar:   "Before exercising the authority granted by subsection (a), the president shall make available to the speaker of the House of Representatives and the president pro tempore of the Senate his determination that (1) the United States has attempted to seek, through the United Nations Security Council, adoption of a resolution after Sept. 12, 2002, under Chapter VII of the United Nations Charter authorizing the action described in subsection (a)(1), and such resolution has been adopted; or (2) that the threat to the United States or allied nations posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program and prohibited ballistic missile program is so grave that the use of force is necessary pursuant to subsection (a)(2), notwithstanding the failure of the Security Council to approve a resolution described in paragraph (1)." 
-----------------
Public Law 107-243: In connection with the exercise of the authority granted in subsection (a) to use force the President shall, prior to such exercise or as soon there after as may be feasible, but no later than 48 hours after exercising such authority, make available to the Speaker of the House of Representatives and the President pro tempore of the Senate his determination that
(1) reliance by the United States on further diplomatic or other peaceful means alone either (A) will not adequately protect the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq or (B) is not likely to lead to enforcement of all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq, and
(2) acting pursuant to this resolution is consistent with the United States and other countries continuing to take the necessary actions against international terrorists and terrorist organizations, including those nations, organizations or persons who planned, authorized, committed or aided the terrorists attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001.
---------------

Now, Gov. Dean has an opinion piece in CommonDreams.org from April of this year which hints at the problem he has.

www.commondreams.org/views03/0417-07.htm

...snip...

Many in Congress who voted for this resolution should have known better. On September 23, 2002, Al Gore cautioned in his speech in San Francisco that "if the Congress approves the Iraq resolution just proposed by the Administration it is simultaneously creating the precedent for preemptive action anywhere, anytime this or any future president so decides." And that is why it was such a big mistake for Congress to allow the president to set this dangerous precedent.

...end snip...

This one paragraph shows is Gov. Dean's conflation of the White House resolution, which was not passed and the final resolution which, as I pointed out above is practically and functionally identical to the the Biden-Lugar resolution which he did support.  What this means is that Gov. Dean has based his entire criticism of his opponents and other Democrats on his incorrect understanding of what happened in the negotiation phase in Congress.  It's quite possible he didn't even read the intermediate or final resolutions involved in the debate, otherwise, he would have known that the 'certification' process for the Administration he claimed he supported in the Biden-Lugar resolution was also an explicit requirement in Public Law 107-243.

Even worse for Gov. Dean, what he claimed was a 'certification' process in Biden-Lugar was nothing of the sort.  Gov. Dean claimed that the President had to prove his WMD assertions were false; entirely untrue.  As pointed out above, the President merely had to show to Congress that he didn't believe Iraq would comply with UN resolutions or that he was acting under self-defense and that the invasion of Iraq was truly a part of the war on terror.

The only difference between Gov. Dean's position and what actually happened is that the report issued by the Administration would have simply deleted the references to the war on terror.  Even that's up for debate, since the war on terror would have been a claim used by the Administration regarding the 'self-defense' angle.  Otherwise, the net result would have been the same if Gov. Dean had been involved in the actual debate about the matter.  Ironically, he even has a quote saying that he 'got it right' while he was up in Vermont while the Washington insiders didn't know what they were doing.
 

[adadem]

108. This is

absolutely correct. I agree with every point BLM has made here.

[cprise]

128. And your point is?

What?

It is the same old Dean/Clark flipflop argument. As for Kerry, there is no flipflop to speak of until after he was shown up by the other candidates.

Dean was out there actively denouncing the war before it started.

What he might have done as a member of Congress IS hypothetical.

Kerry has no hypotheticals to his advantage. He knew Vietnam was wrong, then went off to battle and subsequently talks of the risk to HIMSELF(???) at every opportunity. Yes folks, he will risk his life to kill umpteen primitive, 3rd-world foreigners; unmentionable foreigners. And what do we hear from Kerry after his campaign starts: Bush lied to me! Waaah!

Hypocrisy.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

4. Dean has been attacking and spreading misstruths about the others

I have no pity for him. He was the first one who starting attacking others. He has also run a "dirty" campaign.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

6. What are you talking about?

What is the 'slander, misrepresention, and even lies against Dean ' that you are talking about?

I must have missed it. Could you give an example of what you are talking about?

:hi:

[DoveTurnedHawk]

7. I Second This Request: Specifics, Please (eom)

DTH

[Leilani]

144. And why is everyone acting like this is all over?

Not one vote has been cast!

To all the Dean people: because you were leading in the polls, does not mean you were going to win.

Because you have slipped in the polls, doesn't mean you can't win.

What bothers me is that the coronation has not worked out as planned, so let's pack up our toys & go home.

If you vote 3rd party or don't vote at all, you will be doing to the Dem candidate what Nader did to Gore. Just a few votes put Junior in the White House.

[Hep]

10. LOL

It's one thing to play the game, it's another altogether to say that you were never on the field.

[mzmolly]

17. There is one post gathering flies now in GD. It's not hard to find it

the attacks against Dean have been below the belt.

How wonderful it is that the Democrats have disenfranchised voters in this election. YIPPEE!

[Feanorcurufinwe]

28. Face it, the 'slander, misrepresention, and even lies' don't exist.

Of if they exist they are lost among the many substantial issues. There are so many REAL issues that it is not neccesary to make things up about Dean. Now you are throwing out the BS charge that "Democrats have disenfranchised voters in this election".

:nopity:

[mzmolly]

90. Let's face it they do exist. And, Democrats have disenfranchised

voters in this election.

What it comes down too is this. If Dean has solid support and has brought in new people to the process, he'll win Iowa. Barring any last minute slander/lies. Remember Dean is 'cheating' in Iowa ?? :eyes:

With BS like that a win isn't really a win. They will take it from Dean with dirty politics.

Bravo to those that contributed to Deans demise. IF Dean loses, the party isn't far behind.

[PassingFair]

123. Don't worry, Mz.Molly!

One bogus poll does not a caucus lose! Dean will TROUNCE all opponents in Iowa!

[DoveTurnedHawk]

30. How in the World Have Democrats Disenfranchised Anyone?

Negative attacks don't disenfranchise. The voters who are the targets of negative attacks on candidates still have the right to vote.

I certainly agree that all of the negativity from nearly all of the candidates (Clark and Edwards have been the most positive by far) is a Very Bad Thing, but I don't think disenfranchisement is the right word.

DTH

[Hep]

35. Democrats DO disenfranchise

I've been called an idiot, a cultist, brainwashed, and whole hosts of other things RIGHT HERE ON THIS WEBSITE.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

41. Disenfranchisement Means Removal of Your Right to Vote

How do negative attacks remove your right to vote?

DTH

[Hep]

43. Removal of my WILL to vote.

Perhaps there is a word for this? Sorry for butchering the language.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

46. Oh, I See

I guess the closest word I can think of is disillusioning or demoralizing.

Thanks for clarifying. :-)

:toast:

DTH

[Hep]

48. You were right to call us on that.

n.t

[mzmolly]

91. I liken it to disenfranchisement when young voters are brought into the

party and turned off by the crap that has taken place in this race.

Perhaps we won't get them back-ever?

It was a metaphoric statement ;)

[KaraokeKarlton]

111. Negative attacks do disenfranchise

when supporters of the target know they are not true or valid attacks. This has been the case with Howard Dean. I can honestly say that I will be very hard pressed to be willing to vote for anyone who took part in those attacks. That doesn't leave me with very many potential nominees to vote for.

I honestly believe that if Dean is not the nominee the Democratic Party will be forever changed. I believe there will be huge exodus of Democrats to the Green Party as well as changing their registration to Independent.

[sandnsea]

39. I agree, be specific

Otherwise it's about as meaningless as Washington cockroaches.

[Hep]

45. I love the "who, me?" tactic!

n/t

[Feanorcurufinwe]

85. A charge of 'slander, misrepresention, and even lies' has been made.

and when challenged, we are met with outrage we could dare to even ask that these charges be backed up with evidence.

:nopity:

[Hep]

89. Backed up with evidence

from a forum whose entire archive has been lost.

Brilliant!

[Feanorcurufinwe]

132. Not backed up with evidence

As if the threads in GD:2004 have any bearing on the race lol.

[mbali]

66. Dr. Dean is not always 100% correct about everything

seems to be enough to qualify as an attack against Dean these days.

[sandnsea]

102. Again, be specific

We've answered questions about Kerry's hair, his medals, his ketchup money, and skull and bones. Talk about petty. We've answered questions about the Patriot Act which no candidate except Kucinich is going to repeal and Kerry has already introduced legislation to fix. We've answered questions about the Bush tax cuts which Kerry didn't even vote for overall. And we've explained the war vote so many times we know everything about Iraq for the last 50 years.

And that's the argument against Kerry. That's it, that's all.

Oh, and he attacks poor Dean. So, again, be specific about these so-called attacks because otherwise the accusation is just an attack itself.

[mbali]

104. Re-read my post

[sandnsea]

112. Nothing specific in it

What wasn't he correct about that people are making more out of then they should? Be specific. Otherwise it's just a baseless accusation.

[mbali]

116. If you read it carefully, you'll see that I was being sarcastic

My point being that, to hear some Dean supporters tell it, any acknowledgment that Dean is not perfect constitutes an attack.

[sandnsea]

120. LOL, My sarcasm radar is off

Funny, because it's usually my preferred mo. Sorry.

[mbali]

121. No problem.

:-)

[PassingFair]

125. His dramatic deposit of

...SOMEONE ELSE'S medals is petty? I heard him making a speech this week, where he talked about his connections with the Vietnam Veterans for Peace. He didn't mention that they don't support him. He didn't mention that the have repudiated him since he voted for the Neo-Con Invasion of Iraq.

[sandnsea]

130. his ribbons

sorry. God, I made the same stupid mistake he did.

And there are a variety of Vietnam Veterans groups. They most certainly don't all have the same views, this is America after all. But I guess you'll know how most of them feel when they make him the next President of the United States.

[Kahuna]

140. Only one that I've seen. That ABC piece on spousal abuse...

is a non-story. ABC should be ashamed of doing it. Everything else I've seen seems to be true.

[Cocoa]

142. that story was truly shameful

I sent it to the Daily Howler, I hope the word gets out on ABC's crap, and I hope they pay a price for it.

Another awful smear job was an AP story comparing Dean to Cheney over the nuclear plant. The author, John Solomon, had to contort the facts to make the comparison.

[CMT]

8. but have they worked?

yes, the polls are tightening, but that is to be expected in a competitive election, but we will know next week if Dean wins Iowa or not. I have faith in the voters and the belief that Dean will still take Iowa.

[Bucky]

9. This really has been a two way street. Dean's called Dems roaches, Reps

the vituperation and negativity has been pretty equally spread around. If one calls a fellow Democrat a Republican or a Bush-lite or compares a fellow Democrat to a cockroach, expecting not to be counterattacked seems a bit naive.

The main beneficiaries seem to be Edwards and Clark, who've been running the most attack-free campaigns along with Kucinich. I think that says something.

I'd also point out that the vituperation and negativity dished out by Democrats is a butterfly kiss compared to what Rove and his machinery will do in the Fall. This campaign really is spring training.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Renew Deal]

19. Right, he said he was going to run like cockroaches.

I absolutely hate it when Dean campaigns against Washington. It is phenomenally irritating, and causes him to stick his entire foot deep into his mouth, like when he says that is he wins, members of Congress are:

going to be scurrying for shelter, just like a giant flashlight on a bunch of cockroaches.

Dean is a uniter. :eyes:

http://www.notgeniuses.com/archives/001218.html

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Capn Sunshine]

33. Of course, you left out the operative qualifier

"SOME" members of congress. SOME.

Of course I suppose to many , congress is doing a fine job upholding democratic party values and fighting * tooth and nail.

Is that your opinion?

[Tatiana]

62. Members of Congress who should be scurrying like cockroaches:

ZELL MILLER
Diane Feinstein
John Breaux

[Renew Deal]

77. Not geniuses did.

I took it from them.

[Hep]

79. Thanks for admitting

that you didn't verify the accuracy of the quote before posting it.

[BurtWorm]

42. I'd like to see members of Congress scurry for shelter

considering Congress is owned by Republicans now. But it is possible such an approach could backfire, assuming Dean were elected. The Republicans have shown that they are willing to use every weapon in their armory to keep the Democrats in their subservient place. It's a problem. Bad Republican behavior should not be rewarded with complicity and niceness. But threats may not work either. What is to be done?

[AP]

58. Like Harkin? At one moment, this guy's endorsement is supposed to be like

gold for Dean, because Harkin emodies everything that' great about the Democratic party.

At another moment, Dean's telling voters that anyone who, like Harkin, voted Yes on IWR and No Child Left Behind is an enemy of true Democrats?

[BurtWorm]

67. How does that address my post? I asked a question

about what is the proper way to attack the Republicans. I'm conceding that calling members of Congress cockroaches may backfire. But trying to excuse or ignore Congress's bad behavior of late may backfire too, because it's as good as looking the other way and letting it continue. And by the way, I don't think Democratic members of Congress, including Harkin, ought to be off the hook for making life easier for the Republicans. Do you?

[mbali]

78. Don't forget the Patriot Act

But he endorsed Dean, so he no longer has the cooties.

[bearfartinthewoods]

86. can you imagine incumbent dems trying to campaign with dean

at the top of the ticket? they either have to run against him or their own records.

[AP]

53. Similarly, when Dean lables other DEM CANDS as being bad on race,

he leaves in the minds of many that the candidate nominated, if not him, is bad on race.

It's a dangerous game to play.

Now, he's forced the eventual nominee to spend a couple million reminding people of the truth -- that he's good on race and always has been.

[indigo32]

84. AP

when has Dean labeled the other candidates "Bad" on Race?

[AP]

98. When he said they don't talk bluntly about race to white audiences.

He was telling black voters that they might talk to you about race, but when they're in a room full of only white people, they forget all about black voters. Dean was telling them that he still talks about race when he's talking to white people, and that he was the only one who did it.

[indigo32]

119. Well I guess we interpret these things differently then

"Cockroaches" is pretty unambiguous... though it wasn't leveled directly at any of the candidates.
This is not necessarily calling them bad... but thats just my opinion.

[AP]

122. Dean was telling black voters that the other candidates only care about

them when you're standing in front in the candidate, but they ignore you over in the Whites-Only lounge (as if there were whites-only audiences that a Democratic candidate would talk to today).

It's not a helpful seed he's trying to plant in the minds of black voters.

[mbali]

97. Another inconsistency -

Dean wants to reach out to confederate flag wavers, feed them warm milk and cookies, and gently rock them to sleep in hopes that they will see things his way, yet his way of getting wandering politicians back onto the reservation is to call them names and attack their principles.

I, for one, would like to see him use this tough love approach on the racists he is courting. It would make me feel al ittle better about him.

[bearfartinthewoods]

147. good point

[mbali]

73. It also makes me wonder if he has what it takes to govern effectively

since, rail as he might against the "Washington establishment," the bottom line is that, if elected, he will have to work these folks and he will get nowhere if he continues the nasty rhetoric, attacks and condescending attitude he has shown toward an entire branch of government.

Clinton learned the hard way in his first year when Congress - a Democratic one, at that - taught him a lesson about the folly of assuming he could make an end-run around Congress. Dean obviously learned nothing from that and seems to think that he can just ride into Washington and give Congress the back of his hand. If he really believes that, he definitely isn't ready for national leadership. He'll get his ass handed to him and we'll all suffer as a result.

[mbali]

95. Think it's occurred to Dean that he'll need these Washington cockroaches

this fall?

After all, while endorsements are nice, a candidate really needs political machines to get out the vote and this is where members of Congress are invaluable. They already have the local operations - operations with a proven track record of success as evidence by the fact that they won their last election - that national candidates desperately depend on for the GOTV effort.

I wonder how eager some of these people are going to be to work their butts off for, go around the state with and devote their resources to a guy who spent the primary season trashing them.

[Hep]

99. Why would he need them this fall?

Are the cockroaches going to vote for Bush? I figure they knew who they were voting for as much as a year ago.

I wonder how eager some of these people are going to be to work their butts off for, go around the state with and devote their resources to a guy who said he would be a republican had rove returned they're calls, or to a guy who claimed that supporters of another candidate are reckless kneejerkers.

[Cocoa]

20. I think Bucky had it right

by using that metaphor, I think it's fair to say he was calling dems cockroaches.

[Hep]

29. You're welcome to your interpretation

but it was never his intent. And that's the problem, that some people are willing to assert that Dean was trying to be insulting.

It's a level of cynicism and mean spiritedness that baffles and discourages me.

[Cocoa]

44. so he accidentally compared dems to cockroaches?

it kind of fits in with his whole "throw the bums out" theme, but if Dean has said it was a mistake, I'll forgive him.

Like when he apologized for the Confederate flag thing, once he apologized it became a non-issue for me.

So has Dean apologized for the cockroach thing?

[Hep]

47. Try again

He didn't misspeak. He used metaphor. Would you like for me to give you the long, remedial explanation I've given about thirty times already?

[Cocoa]

54. why does the device matter?

What is the significance of the fact he used a metaphor?

And to be technical, from what I recall from Mrs. D'Asaro in 7th grade, that would be a simile, not a metaphor.

But like I said, what difference does it make what device he used? He still is comparing dems to cockroaches.

[Hep]

59. What s the relevance of a metaphor? Are you serious?

He was comparing the SCURRYING, the freaking SCURRYING to cockroaches, NOT the people.

[Cocoa]

65. suppose he said "Kerry is talking like an idiot"

Could he then say, I wasn't calling Kerry an idiot, I was just comparing the talking, not the person.

I would think not.

[Hep]

70. A push poll in response?

Dean didn't and wouldn't say that, and it's not by any means anaccurate analogy. We all know how cockroaches scurry when the lights are turned on. We all have a mental image of that.

I don't know how an idiot talks.

Come up with a WORKING analogy and we can discuss it.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

143. You don't really expect people to take that comment seriously do you?

It's a joke, right?

[kiahzero]

114. There is an implicit comparison

If I were to say Bush walks like a chimp, there would be an implicit comparison between the two things that walk similarly: Bush, and the chimp.

If there is no implicit comparison, what idea was intended to be expressed?

[TexasSissy]

23. No, I think he did refer to the Washington Democrats as cockroaches.

You think the report of that was incorrect?

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hep]

38. I don't think it, I know it.

You didn'tknow that the media misrepresents people for a living??

[HFishbine]

24. Dean did not call dems cockroaches

and I challenge you to provide a link or source that proves he did.

[Cocoa]

14. look at it a different way

don't look at it as attacks, look at it as the primary campaign working to educate the voters.

It can be seen as a good thing. Maybe the early Dean lead was based on lack of information, or hype, in which case it's a good thing there's been a correction. We want the most qualified candidate going against Bush.

[mmonk]

16. Can we attribute the recent fluidity

in the polls to nothing but attacks? Hard to say. I would like to think some of the undecideds are starting to decide on candidates and that is part of it.

[Melodybe]

31. I don't think that the attacks have worked, I'm not that worried for Dean

However, I think that Dean is our stongest candidate and he has forgone spending caps. This is a big deal, I have decided that my new second choice will be Kerry. As much as I like General Clark (check all of my old posts if you don't believe me, he has been my second choice all along), I think that matching funds will murder the democrat in the GE. I feel like Dean or Kerry are our only viable choices now.

[mmonk]

36. I respect your opinion.

[TexasSissy]

18. I haven't seen or heard any attacks on Dean.

I HAVE seen the other candidates point out Dean's inconsistencies and contradictions in current vs. past positions and statements. That's fair play. In fact, it's their duty, as well as the media's duty, to do that. We, the public, rely on it.

And that goes for all the candidates.

I have not heard any name calling (except by Dean---cockroaches, I think he called the Washington Democrats). That's going to far, IMO, and is disrespectful & ungentlemanly.

Don't be too upset. At least his name is still in the news. Most of the other candidates were virtually ignored for months, until recently. It's time to share the spotlight. Cheer up. It may not last.

[returnable]

21. The Dean campaign...

...has engaged in the very same tactics you deplore.

Does the political climate suck right now? Sure, it does. I agree with you.

But your candidate is as responsible for it as anyone else.

Quit complaining about his slip in the polls and go out and do something positive to help your guy.

[MoonRiver]

27. If you're a Dean supporter I wouldn't expect you to be happy.

But those of us who believe another candidate would be a better campaigner against *, and a more skilled American president, want Dean defeated in the primary. My position is that General Wesley Clark is the best thing that's ever happened to the Democratic Party since FDR. I will be so thrilled if he wins the nomination.

[Meshuga]

40. I also hate the negativity...

But Dean ran a very negative campaign until he became the front runner and started to protest the attacks againt his person. Now he's going to start attacking again, Im sure. I don't blame him. That's what politics is all about. I'm happy that Dean is falling in the polls because I don't see him as the most electable. All I want is Bush out of the white house and we need a candidate who will beat him and I think Kerry not only has a better chance than Dean, I think he has a better vision. Kerry would make a better president.

If Kerry's campaign fails to ride the momentum in the next few weeks my support will go for the one who becomes the anti-Dean. I will only support Dean if he wins the nomination.

[bigtree]

49. The truth (apparently) hurts

him.

[blm]

50. Well, were you happy that Dean attacking the others worked?

Were you happy that Dean marched next to a sign a few months ago that said Kerry = Bush?

Were you happy that Dean called the other candidates with records WAY more liberal than his "Bushlite" for a year?

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jumptheshadow]

52. Could it just be?

That there a many voters out there who were going on name recognition and hadn't made up their minds? And that when they started following the candidates closely they decided that they like other guys?

Can it be that Wesley Clark is genuinely a strong, engaging candidate who has run a brilliant campaign in the past two months and who deserves the momentum he's getting?

Could it be that John Kerry, pound for pound, owns the best Democratic record of any of the candidates and deserves the momentum he's getting.

Everything is not about Howard Dean.

[retyred]

55. I don't see it as slander, misrepresentation, or lies

I see it as people actually looking at dean now that certain facts have been exposed to the public.

While most is indeed negative, none have been more slander, misrepresentation, or lies than dean has slung and given the equality of it appears to merit the fact that voters find dean less desirable.


retyred in fla
“Good-Night Paul, Wherever You Are”
So I read this book

[theboss]

57. Welcome to politics

A primary is basically a marathon where all the participants are armed. If someone like Dean sprints to the front early, then everyone starts lobbing grenades at him to bring him back to the pack.

If he wins the nomination, he will be a better candidate for it.

[mbali]

60. Let me get this straight

Everyone who doesn't want to support Dean and anyone who has changed their minds about him and switched to someone else was too stupid to resist being boondoggled by criticism of him?

Is the only explanation for someone not wanting to vote for him that they have been tricked or improperly influenced?

Wow. I knew that Dean was the only politician talking about race to white audiences but I had no idea he was also the only candidate worthy of any support in this race!

[Adjoran]

61. There's another way of saying

NB(insert your candidate's initial here):


It's called "bush 2004"


If we are to win this election, it will take EVERY candidate's supporters and volunteers, and a lot more. If a significant candidate's people sit it out or vote Green, you-know-who wins.

Those who "walk" or "sit it out" are in fact voting with their feet for four more years of shrubbery.

You can cloak it in righteous indignation all you want to, but that is what you would be doing.

[TLM]

63. Don't lose heart... this was expected. And there are plans to address it

Dean's going to pull this one out... just sit back and watch, it's going to be great over the next few days.

And I'm talking Ali vs Foreman great.

Starting with CMB throwing her support behind Dean... Carter... and another little surprise in the wings.

[PassingFair]

127. You betcha!

I'm chilling the champagne as we speak. The base votes in the caucuses, and this year, Dean supporters ARE the base. Gore is kicking butt, speaking out like he should have in 2000. We are going to take our country back. And yes, there are dem cockroaches in Congress and Dean WILL turn over their Global Crossing/Enron encrusted rocks.
Yippee!

[Forkboy]

64. This,and a number of other reasons,have convinced me

that this is the last time I'll vote dem for a long time.

[cprise]

74. They're just following their media script

For all the mistrust of media here on DU, most have no understanding of how they are manipulated every day. OK, it's not a script... more like a Pavlovian bell. Through them, DU became their instrument; Coke is chosen over Pepsi and then courage is married to this 'conviction'.

Some of the posting restrictions that exist on DUer speech do not apply here to the mass media, so that is the voice which dominates. Can't call Dean a nasty name because the mods will get you? That's OK, Christopher Hitchens will supply the acceptable corporately-secreted wallpaper.

It is interesting, for all his highly liberal positions that Clark is rarely ever attacked by the media. "Too liberal" doesn't even come up as it did endlessly with Dean in the beginning. But Clark is against breaking up media conglomerates, whereas Dean is for it. Hence, only token scrutiny.

Now we may end up with a Clinton corporatist (based on actions, not words), and corporate control and brainwashing will keep getting worse. Nothing may actually improve, but would all be re-labeled instead. The rest of the world, with sovereingty and subsistence economics weighing heavily, would still hate and mistrust us. Now that would be an interesting problem for Madison Ave. propagandists.

[blm]

88. Can you explain how Dean's record shows him to be the most corporatist of

the candidates, yet his supporters only see corporatism in other candidates? Even environmentalists like Kerry who NEVER took corporate pac money gets called a "corporatist" while Dean was pushing deregulation for years as governor.

[mzmolly]

92. BLM Kerry has taken PAC money. I've seen you say this time and time again

It's time you were educated on this. Kerry has taken almost 50K in PAC contributions in this campaign.

http://www.opensecrets.org/presidential/summary.asp?ID=N00000245

[blm]

93. He never did in ANY previous campaign...

yet, Dean supporters call Kerry a "corporatist" and a shill. Can you point to CORPORATE pac now?

Can you explain why Dean supporters accuse others while ignoring Dean's VERY procorporate record throughout his governing career?

[sandnsea]

105. Leadership PAC's, just like Dean

Kerry has his Citizen Soldiers, Dean has his Fund for a Healthy America. These are not PAC's in the traditional sense and are often used as holding funds to support other candidates anyway. Kerry has never taken traditional PAC money.

[cprise]

101. (This is where Clark is supposed to get a pass...)

(...no record except as a corporate lobbyist pushing finance's transformation into a homeland spy infrastructure.)


Oh, Dean was a DLC'er all right.

And boy do they panic when one of them defects and turns against the ideology.

Specifically Dean instituted healthcare for all children under 18 (PR says you are not supposed to go beyond playing with the idea of universal care). He turned against his own utility privatization scheme and saw it defeated.

I will let his website describe the rest:

During the Dean tenure, more than 41,000 new jobs have been created, the state's minimum wage has climbed twice, incentive programs have expanded to help downtowns attract new businesses, and tax incentives were created to attract and keep new companies.

If fiscal management is Governor Dean's trademark, improving the lives of Vermont's children is his passion. A physician, Governor Dean strengthened the Dr. Dynasaur program to guarantee health coverage to virtually every child in Vermont age 18 and under. Vermont has one of the lowest uninsured rates in the country and one of the highest rates of immunized children. Governor Dean has expanded programs to help seniors afford prescription drugs, and he signed into law one of the toughest managed-care consumer protections in the United States.
It is the preservation of Vermont's precious natural resources and landscapes that the governor considers his legacy. Governor Dean worked with local communities and the federal government to preserve more than one million acres of farmland, shorefront, working forests, and wilderness.

Under the Dean Administration, 76 of the state's leaking landfills were safely closed, and Vermont became a leader in the move to reduce mercury pollution and stop power plants from polluting the air. Governor Dean has created bikeways, led the effort to restore commuter rail service in Vermont, and led a strong, coordinated attack on sprawl.

Working with lawmakers, prosecutors, judges, and law enforcement, Governor Dean has cracked down on violent crime in Vermont and ensured that violent felons spend time behind bars. He has fought to protect family farms, increased the number of women and minorities in judgeships and other prominent positions, cracked down on domestic violence, and put Vermont in the forefront for child support collections.

http://www.deanforamerica.com

[blm]

106. You trust election year conversions over 30 yr. records?

Suit yourself.

I would ONLY trust someone's record accrued WHILE they were using the power they were given to govern. I would NEVER trust someone's word in an election year campaign, especially if their record didn't match their word.

[cprise]

115. Yes, the *2000* election, whereas Clark converts in 2003.

And you didn't read my post. A list like that is not accomplished in an election year, or even two.

[stickdog]

75. None of the attacks on Dean add up to even half of a legitimate scandal.

The very worst thing about him is that he very intelligently sealed his records to protect against just this type of feeding frenzy.

None of the other candidates has open records, and none of the other "scandals" or "gaffes" mean shit.

It's all a bunch of media noise, just like "Al Gore is a liar."

[w4rma]

80. We're going to win this thing, we've GOT to get out that vote, tho!

I will tell you, that the tactics used by these other guys have absolutely PISSED ME OFF. And while I'll vote for any of them, I'm going to be feeling a bit vengeful towards them if their tear-Dean-down strategy wins one of them the nomination.

This primary SHOULD have been focused on attacking Bush but they decided to make it one about attacking Dean. And, I don't exepmt Clark, as I think that most of the attacks may be coming from a couple of candidates who are on kamakazee campaigns for Clark against Dean.

[Duder]

81. Don't worry...

First, let me say that there's only one poll that I look at and as it stands now, Howard Dean will be the nominee. There might be another poll update before or on the day of the Iowa caucus and if the numbers change and someone else goes on to win the nomination, then I suspect that there will be a scenario much like when Humphrey was the nominee and the McCarthy voters stayed home. If that happens then Bush will be re-elected, imo.

For now, pay no attention to the "horserace" coverage because Dean's in very good shape.

[Crunchy Frog]

94. I don't believe that it is

the attacks against Dean that have been hurting him. Having watched this primary process closely for some time, what I have noticed is that when Dean has been attacked it has always seemed to make him more popular, and the attacker less so.

I think that what is happening now is that as the primaries approach, people are subjecting all the candidates to much closer scrutiny. Whereas before, some of Dean's poll standing may have been from people who thought he was good just because the press was saying he was the front runner, those people are now making real assessements of him as a candidate.

Also, as the race has tightened and Dean is feeling his lock on the nomination being threatened, he has begun employing the same type of attacks against his opponents that were used so ineffectively against him. I think that this alone is helping to lower his standing.

At any rate, I think it is imperative that if Dean is a weak candidate, that this become known now, and not next November.

[edzontar]

113. Do not despair. The liars shall fail in the end.

Dean will be victorious.

And the Media Whores, Repuke slanderers and faux-Democratic campaign operatives will suffer a catastrophic defeat.

So it is written, so it shall be done.

[blm]

117. Can you compare the last 30 yrs of their records and explain to us

who you see as a faux Democrat? Please use their actual records of governance to do so.

[IndianaGreen]

118. Good luck in November!

I know more than a handful of people that were looking forward to voting for an antiwar Democratic candidate. Most of them support Kucinich, the rest support Dean. They either never voted before, or had not voted in a long time, disillusioned about the corruption of the political system and its failure to prevent outrages such as PATRIOT Act and the Iraq War Resolution. They are not about to vote for a prowar and pro-PATRIOT Democratic candidate in the Fall, and I won't blame them!

Right now our efforts are geared to getting Dennis on the Indiana ballot. Dean is already well on his way to having the necessary number of signatures. There is also a well-organized effort by the Clark folks, and I hear that they are doing well.

Perhaps no candidate will have enough delegates to win the nomination on the first ballot, which means that the Indiana primary may be more than a meaningless rubber stamp.

Kucinich may well be an attractive choice to those Hoosiers that feel that they have been wronged by a party establishment that is prowar.

[dajabr]

124. I'm ready to work for Kucinich...

If the Stop Dean Movement is successful. If Kucinich fails, I'd have fewer and fewer regrets about what I'll need to do for my own sanity in November.

[IndianaGreen]

126. I know what I am doing in November

I will be working like crazy to reelect Julia Carson to Congress, and to help Governor Kernan defeat the challenge from Bush's former budget director, Mitch Daniels.

Evan Bayh won't get my vote. Indiana Republicans love his ass, and vote for him in great numbers. I loath him!

[skjpm]

129. Wow! You sure get a lot of responses when you run for an errand.

I think this is the most responses I've gotten to a thread, and I wasn't even here for most of it. I am furious that Gephardt calls Dean's anger contrived. My anger is wholly genuine, if he wants real anger. I am angry that Kerry misrepresents Dean's stand on Medicare. And I'm really angry at Clinton for lifting up a savior from outside the party--mainly to stop Dean.

So, if Dean isn't nominated, I'm going to be an angry Democrat who in other years would vote third party.

[cryofan]

131. i disagree with you

I think that by spreading the meme that dean has a history of dissing the Lefties, of wanting to drastically cut retirement benefits, veterans benefits, and other social safety net benefits, I am doing Americans a BIG BIG favor. How could it be otherwise?

[LuminousX]

133. As a Dean supporter I say, yes, you should be happy

Okay, stick with me here.

The primary system is clunky and ancient but it does work. We are in the crucible. If Dean can't survive here, he wouldn't survive against Bush.

If he does survive (and he has a good chance) he will be ripe to take on Bush.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

141. great point

I agree. If Dean can survive the bashing I've given him over the last two years, there is nothing he has to fear from the publicans, for sure.
:)

[DjTj]

134. The candidate who has not attacked...

...has gained the most in the polls.

The January 12th Zogby poll had John Edwards at 12% and the January 15th poll has him at 17%. This is a 41.7% increase in the number of supporters.

I am excited by this because it shows you can win without attacking.

[mbali]

135. Not only isn't he attacking, but he's presenting real policies & solutions

I think Edwards has the most substantive campaign of all of the candidates.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

137. Talk to me on Monday.

I think you'll be surprised at what has worked and what hasn't.

[Printer70]

145. Disgusted with DLC/Clinton-led slime campaign against Dean

IE: Dean's letter to Clinton about Bosnia that was leaked. I've had it with this nonsense- if Dean doesn't win the nomination, I'm going 3rd party.