It's time for Dean and Kerry supporters to get together.

[edzontar]

We are closer than we usually let on here.

Kerry was my choice until I was disappointed by his IWR vote and poor debate appearances.

But he has a solid record as a veteran, peace activist, and advocate for progressive causes in the Senate.

Dean has run a phenomenal campaign. He has energized a dispritited base and attracted legions of new voters.

He has given the party a new sense of mission and a new voice of authority and conviction, for which everyone here should thank him.

But now there is a new and very uncertain face in the scene--one whose campaign threatens disunity and catastrophic defeat in the general election.
That is the campaign of General Clark.

My sincerest hope is that Kerry and Dean will emerge as the victors in IA, and then move on to stop the Clark campaign in its tracks, in the snows of Iowa.

Then we can finally see a ghenuine New England Democratic race between two distinguished leaders of our party:

Kerry and Dean.

[molly]

1. Sorry to disappoint, but I do not see any similiarities

between Kerry and Dean - notta a one. Clark is my number 2 choice followed by Edwards.

[edzontar]

26. Wait a minute, Molly, it's Kerry who has been asking for a one-on-one

Between him and Dean.

I respect both men.

Why not toss the others and let them go for it?

[molly]

35. Dean has declined both times Kerry has challenged him to a

one-on-one debate - the first last September when Dean initiated it. Kerry would bring out the real Dean and Dean knows it.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

62. Dean would be beat like a bad peice of meat by Kerry....

n/t

[ModerateMiddle]

71. I'm with you molly

I would love to see a principled debate between Kerry and Clark, and would be happy to support either one for President. I would even add Edwards into that mix, although I would be happier if he had more FP experience, for sure.

[cthrumatrix]

31. i think the common enemy is the repug media --- it's obvious

there should be an investigation for the deliberate media bias and a class action suit

[edzontar]

32. True

nt

[kerry-is-my-prez]

63. That's one thing we all agree with...

n/t

[adadem]

48. moved n/t

[Exgeneral]

50. there was an AOL candidate thing today

that did a side by side of the candidates to view their stances.

According to the nice lady in my HR office, she says that the AOL comparison showed Dean and Kerry were "exactly alike"

Anyone get AOL? I would be curious to see this.

[stickdog]

68. What does Clark have in common with Kerry besides the fact that

both were both for and against the Iraq War?

[ModerateMiddle]

72. Yes, they are both nuanced

which demonstrated a grip on the "real world". Nuance does seem to be lost on some folks.

[threemilemind]

2. Kerry might win the general election

Dean will not. No thanks.

[the populist]

7. 24 posts

and you've already become my favorite fellow DU'er :) .

Thank you for your integrity. Dean has done too much damage for ANY Kerry supporter or Gephardt supporter od Edwards supporter to forgive him for.

I would vote for Dean in November, but I would really rather have ANYONE (Edwards, Gephardt, and Kerry figuratively means anyone) than him.

[BurtWorm]

33. Out of curiosity, what has Dean done to Gephardt that compares with

Gephardt's "Gingriching" of Dean?

[kerry-is-my-prez]

64. Add the Clark supporters to that too please... We're in it with you too

n/t

[stinkeefresh]

15. I guess I don't understand this...

I don't want a general in charge of the Democrats if it can be avoided, and I have real concerns about the quality of Kerry's campaign, but I know either of them could beat Bush in the GE.

But nothing like Dean's campaign has ever happened before- it uses tools previously unavailable to maximum effect, and as a result is very difficult to predict. How can you be so sure he can't win?

It seems like such a fear based thought. And keeping us afraid is Bush's best tool.

[the populist]

18. Here's the CNN pro-Dean talking points again.

Wow, he uses the internet. That has been such an overrated point. The GOP uses the internet too, so rest assured that Dean's words will be weighed heavily if he wins the nom.

Dean is *'s best tool. The media is supporting him (FOX News is doing it by reverse psychology) because he'll hang himself with his own microphone cord after the primaries.

[stickdog]

69. Except that the media is constantly slamming him!

Study: Network News Criticizes Dean Most

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=694&ncid=716&e=5&u=/ap/20040116/ap_on_el_pr/tv_news_democrats

Try again.

[bearfartinthewoods]

75. i think the first prez candidate to sign people via the net was

bradley and mccain raised half a million bucks on line IN ONE DAY!!!
btw....what happened to the bat?

[molly]

38. I spoke with a friend of mine today - male and registered

independent. He said that if Kerry wins the nomination, he would be behind him 100% - even work on his campaign. He said that he would never vote for Dean because he scares him immensely. This is a very politically astute and intelligent man - late 40's.

This is middle America folks - our party needs to encompass and appeal to ALL voters.

[KaraokeKarlton]

52. That's funny. I'm a registered Independent and a bona fide swing voter

and Dean is the one I support and the only one I have FULL confidence in walloping the hell out of Bush. I KNOW Dean will beat Bush. I think some of the others might squeak out a win if luck is on their side, but I'm not confident about them at all. For every one loyal Democratic voter Dean has, he has at least two voters solidly behind him that haven't been secure Democratic votes before now. In my opinion, it would be the dumbest thing Democrats could do to snub that. :shrug:

[Exgeneral]

51. If he does, he'll have to clean a lot of blood off his knife

He'll be climbing over a LOT of Dem bodies to get the nomination.
Especially General Clarks.

[threemilemind]

60. Clark is no Dem

[Feanorcurufinwe]

3. You may be jumping the gun a bit.

I do hope that once one of those two is eliminated he will show the leadership to mend fences with the other and energize his supporters for the Democrats, but I think things are gonna have to shake out for awhile first...

[in_cog_ni_to]

4. Why?

NOW, you want Kerry supporters after all these months of bashing their candidate? I somehow doubt they are going to be very accomodating to you and the Dean campaign and I wouldn't blame them. I could be wrong. If I were a Kerry supporter, I would say, Thanks, but NO THANKS!

[TLM]

5. I agree... I dislike Kerry and see him as the typical status quo insider

and fence sitter... but he is a dem and I think he'd make a fine president.

I'd much rather have Kerry than Clark and I also hope Kerry's campaign finding its legs in Iowa will allow him to come into NH and knock Clark out of it.

Besides... Kerry's been lifting things from Dean speeches for months. I nearly shat when Kerry said he wanted to help Americans have the same access to the health care plan that folks in congress have. Which was a word for word quote from Dean like 6 or 8 months ago.

I would support Kerry, but there's no way in hell a defense lobbyist who thinks Reagan is a truly great leader that he tremendously loves and admires, would get my vote.

I'd vote for dog vomit before I'd vote for Clark.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

13. That's been in Kerry's stump speech forever.

Gee, we are Democrats, is it really so surprising we share some viewpoints?

[blm]

44. Kerry has been saying that about healthcare for a year.

His plan is for people to get exactly what Congress gets.

[Rowdyboy]

6. I would think Clark and Kerry provide for more common ground

Both excellent in foreign policy/national security, both social/economic liberals, represent different regions and combine legislative and military experience to make an ideal ticket. And, I don't particularly care which one of them is at the top.

[the populist]

11. No thanks to you too.

I may shift my alliance to Kerry in the coming weeks, and I put Clark supporters and Dean supporters in the same disagreeable camp.

I hope Kerry would never let that guy who called Reagan a great leader into the White House.

[cprise]

12. Clark is no economic liberal

...not if Clinton's history is any indication.

[Democrats unite]

8. I wish Kerry all the best in Iowa

Also I would like to wish Kerry supporters a victory on Monday. That will send a message to someone saying don't take us for granted!

[cprise]

9. Even I will admit...

...that all-New England would spell death to a campaign.

There would be open discrimination against them AND the public would heed it.

Additionally, Dean's anti-war position would be compromised and that would make him a sitting duck against Bush.

Kerry also allowed himself to be used as a killing machine in the Vietnam war, AFTER he deounced it (he considers is heroic because HIS life was at risk).

[the populist]

22. You can't criticize Kerry's war record

That is an insult to every veteran in this country. No shit he was a killing machine, but he put his life on the line even though he was a blue-blooded aristocratic Bostonian.

You think Dean would be able to beat *?

No serious political analyst predicts a Dean success against Mr. Pretzel.

[Schmendrick54]

30. Who qualifies as a serious political analyst?

Hello populist,

First off, I have no wish to insult Kerry's record of service. I have nothing but the greatest respect for those who have served with honor in our nation's military (including Kerry and many member's of my own family).

That being said, you have stated that:

"No serious political analyst predicts a Dean success against Mr. Pretzel."

Just to give me an idea of whom you consider serious, can you give me a name or two of serious political analysts who have predicted Mr. Gephardt can beat *? (Incidentally, I personally think Rep. Gephardt or Gov. Dean could beat *, but do not claim to be a serious political analyst.)

Regards,
Schmendrick

[kerry-is-my-prez]

66. Stu Rothenberg, Charlie Cook, Laurence O'Donnell, Carville, Begala

Many, many others.

[edzontar]

36. Kerry's record as a veteran and anti-war activist is distinguished

He is a fine man and a great DEMOCRAT.

Clark served his country well too--he is just not our best choice for pres, i s all.

[cprise]

46. Absurdity can be a distinguishing trait

.

[cprise]

45. I just did

There is absolutely no excuse for an Ivy-Leaguer with a firm grasp of the facts AND a formed opinion that the war is wrong, to go abroad and kill people.

No serious political analyst has a voice in this country. They are all foppish moral cowards in their own Eddie Bauer, SUV-driving way.

[edzontar]

24. Yeah, but NE Dems know how to put on a CAMPAIGN...

I mean, say what you will, Dean has not been BORING, he is a scrapper!!

And Kerry has a persistent, stubborn, never-say die streak that Mass. Dems have grown to admire over the years.

They are the best in the pack--so I say, let's get the others out of there and let them at it!!!

[HFishbine]

10. My second choice

has long been Kerry.

[LuminousX]

19. Ditto

And if Kerry supporters don't like my campaigning for Kerry if Dean doesn't go the distance, I don't care. And I wouldn't even dream of asking a Kerry supporter to help Dean if Kerry doesn't go the distance.

[edzontar]

14. I think that Kerry and Dean have the best chance against Bush...

Clark's past votes and statements of support for the GOP will be used to destroy him.

Since Gephardt appears to be a regional candidate at best, and Lieberman is going nowhere, it seems to me that either Kerry or Dean are the best choices for the number one slot.

Edwards would be the ideal VP for either man.

That is my POV..and it makes sense from here.

[sandnsea]

16. It's a nice sentiment, truly

Howard could fix it in about ten minutes. He just has to come out and tell the truth about Iraq, tax cuts, NCLB and children's health care in Vermont. He has to own up to the fact that he said Saddam had chem/bio weapons and probably nuclear programs and was a theat; and had to be dealt with even through unilateral war if necessary. He has to tell the truth about the middle class tax cuts, that they were Democratic initiatives and are important for the people and the economy. He has to tell the truth about the intent of Kennedy and NCLB. And he has to tell the truth about SCHIP and its contribution to Vermont children's health coverage.

When Howard does all of that, I'll support him gladly.

[West Coast Democrat]

17. I am a Clark supporter

but I don't believe in stopping any campaign in "its tracks", to use your phrase. Every candidate has the right to campaign.

[edzontar]

20. Well, someone has to win, right?

To win you have to stop the other guy.

We have seen "Stop Dean Movement"" threads flourish here over the past months.

Why not a rock-solid. long-term progressive Democratic effort to stop Clark?

Makes sense to me....

[West Coast Democrat]

23. I oppose any "Stop Candidate Z" movements

they make us look bad.

[edzontar]

27. So did I...and I'm not proposing a movement...

Just envisoning a better debate involving the most worthwhile candidates.

[JNelson6563]

21. Kerry's my #2

But I can assure you his supporters had nothing to do with that. If I based my candidate order on supporters Kerry would be my #7 or so.

Julie

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

25. No way I will ever vote for Kerry.

His vote for the IWR sealed his fate as a footnote in '04.

[molly]

39. Could you - would you - please explain your logic?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

54. Sure I will.

I believe that the invasion and subjugation of Iraq was a political ploy by the idiot-in-chief to win the support of the voters after 9/11. Even though his stated reasons for going to war had nothing, zero, nada, zip, to do with 9/11 or for the alleged WMD. This has been done at the cost of thousands of needless deaths.

I believe it to be unconscionable to buy votes with lives.

Kerry supported that invasion and subsequent slaughter. I will not vote for him.

[sandnsea]

41. Dean supported Afghanistan

That was a war to build a pipeline and nothing more. Dean should never have trusted Bush. Bush could have gotten al qaeda without bombing Afghanistan, he just didn't want to. Dean was a fool to believe him.

That's the logic being applied to IWR.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

55. So did the UN.

I don't recall the UN voting in favor of the slaughter in Iraq.

[Jerseycoa]

28. Ahhhh, if this isn't the sweetest...

:7 :7 :7

[poskonig]

29. Kerry OR Dean

Iowa can't pick two candidates. If Dean wins Iowa, you're getting a Clark v Dean race whether you like it or not. If Kerry wins, then Clark is marginalized to some extent in NH, and Dean will have to figure out a way to stop the bleeding.

[returnable]

34. Clark, Clark, Clark

:hi:

[MoonRiver]

37. Clark's my #1 choice followed by Kerry

Dean is next to last, beating Lieberman. I see few similarities between Kerry and Dean.

[adadem]

49. I agree

Kerry is my first choice and who I've cast my vote for (Michigan...we're already voting). Clark is my new second.
The only thing Kerry and Dean have in common is that they are
members of the same political party.

[ModerateMiddle]

74. I have a similar attitude

except I'd vote for Lieberman before I'd vote (in the primaries) for Dean. Oh, and Kerry is my #1, Clark #2.

[worldgonekrazy]

40. I'm afraid all those disenfrachised voters Dean brought in...

are once again disenfranchised.

Thank you, mass media, for poisoning the spirit of a populist movement. I always knew I could count on the likes of you for slandering and mud-slinging.

[returnable]

42. Disenfranchised?

I think the word you're looking for is disgruntled. Or even disgusted.

But not disenfranchised. Cuz the mass media hasn't prevented you from your legal right to vote :hi:

[retyred]

43. Nice try but

Just why does the clear winner in Iowa {Kerry} need to align himself with dean? Why?

Kerry doesn't need dean, and until now dean sure sent the message he didn't want or need anyone.

If Kerry or his supporters fall in line with dean just to make dean look better, then it will not be just to derail Clark, but to derail Kerry as well, and anyone else that stand between dean and his goal.

I detect a desperation ploy coming on.

Too bad, so sad.



retyred in fla
“Good-Night Paul, Wherever You Are”
So I read this book

[cprise]

47. If Dean loses, he loses.

And the Dems risk collapse of the party.

[lurk_no_more]

58. I have no doubt you feel this way but

since you said it would you care to elaborate on just how you see the collapse of the party if dean doesn't win.

From where I stand and from what I've read about dean wanting to restructure the party, it would appear to me that a dean win would fracture the party even more.


And then there were none!
” JAFO”

[cprise]

59. Um, yeah, like Reagan "fractured" the Republicans

Restructure or expire. The last mid-term election spells it right out.

Just how the Democrats would fracture has been done to death (no pun intended).

[stickdog]

70. Kerry is the CLEAR winner in Iowa?

Would you care to make a friendly wager on your confident prediction?

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[windansea]

56. Kerry join forces with Dean?

not likely

[mmonk]

57. I beg to differ about this characterization of Clark

or his campaign. Have a nice day.:hi:

[kerry-is-my-prez]

61. How does Clark threaten disunity? Dean has caused a lot of disunity..

n/t

[edzontar]

76. I worry that Progressives wil flock to the Greens

If Clark is the candidate ...hopefuly, if it goes that way, I will be wrong.

[IndianaGreen]

65. The war is the issue

and the war shall remain the issue.

Hubert Humphrey's support for the Vietnam War was anathema to those that supported the antiwar candidates Bobby Kennedy and Gene McCarthy.

People died and will continue to die because of this war, a war that was made possible by the pro-IWR of many Democrats that chose to follow the DLC's advice to be accommodating to Bush.

There is only one candidate left, assuming Dean continues in free-fall, that best articulates our opposition to the criminal invasion of Iraq, and whose position on the issues are more liberal than John Kerry's. That candidate is Dennis Kucinich!

[stickdog]

67. After Dean & DK, Kerry & Edwards are next best.

I will do everything in my power to stop the candidates that are so scary that I couldn't even vote for them vs. Bush.

[IndianaGreen]

73. After Dean and Kucinich, we have Clark...

and after Clark, we still have Al. After Al, it gets a bit fuzzy, but I will say that Edwards has run a clean campaign and has not engaged in the Beltway gutter politics that Gephardt and Kerry have.

Lieberman is on his way to joining Zell Miller, so he is not a factor.

It will have to take a major revelation about Clark, something along the lines that Clark supports the PNAC agenda and has been lying all along, for me to drop Clark. I will point out that no such revelation has yet to surface. General Shelton's smear of Clark remains that, a smear. No evidence has been presented.

I don't think Clark is a liberal anyhoo, but neither is he a conservative or a centrist as defined by the DLC. I think Clark is a pragmatist. I also find Clark intriguing from an intellectual point of view, a man that will make his own imprint in history.