I've decided: I'm switching from Dean to....

[mw]

Clark.

I usually hate posts about switching, but I guess I understand them a bit now, because I didn't come to this conclusion lightly, and it's a sort of revelation or burden lifted.

I've been a Dean supported from Day One. I liked (and still like) Dean's proven ability to take on the Bushit. I gave a couple of hundred to Dean--the first time EVER I contributed to a political candidate.

When Clark entered the race, I didn't pay much attention. But the damn guy just gets better and better, he's taking Bush on head on , and, very importantly, he's from the South.

And guess what? I'm the local Meetup coordinator for Dean in my area. Or...as of today, "was" I guess. I need to let everyone know and hand it off.

It was a tough decision, but I think Wesley Clark is the better man. Can Dean beat Bush? Yep. But Clark can more readily, I believe.

It came down to asking myself: If the clouds parted and God's hand pointed to me and a voice boomed "Hey you! YOU get to choose, right now, who will run against Bush!", I would have to think about it. But I'd settle, I believe, on Clark.

I think Dean has the better campaign by far, but Clark is the better candidate, who's latecomer campaign will, I hope, catch up.

I remain excited for both men--in fact I'd say I'm right at 50-50--and if I had lots of time and money I'd probably support both at this stage. But time and money are precious, and I feel I must choose between the two. and besides I don't feel right being the Dean coordinator in my area when I don't feel unqualified support for the man.

If Clark ultimately gets the nomination: Yippee!!!

If Dean ultimately gets the nomination: Yippee!

But I've made up my mind. Clark in 04!

[hellhathnofury]

1. That's fair enough.

My suggestion is to sit it out. If you give money give it equally, if you advocate to friends do it equally..etc...

[mw]

6. I think you're right.

I need to advocate both men, unless a choice is required.

But I cannot continue to be the Dean coordinator. It doesn't feel right.

[hellhathnofury]

12. That's cool. The less partisans the better.

[windansea]

7. sit it out??

:wtf:

[hellhathnofury]

11. The candidate wars, she can vote for who ever she wants.

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[funky_bug]

5. Welcome to the camp

I'm sure the Clark MeetUps will be more than thrilled to have you on board.

[mw]

8. I just checked: there isn't a meetup in my area

The closest is in San Fernando.

But that used to be the case with Dean, until we made one up here. Who knows? Maybe I'm destined to become the Clark Meetup Coordinator here. :D

[Crunchy Frog]

28. One of the most active Clark people

in my area; he has had a house party and will be assisting us with ours, started out firmly in the Dean camp, donating money and attending meetups. I hope you will consider getting actively involved, you sound like you would be a great asset to any campaign.:)

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mw]

16. Huh?

"Newcomer"? I've been here, I'll bet, longer than you. I was one of the first dozen DU posters back in February 2000.

"Spouting insults"? Point out one insult in my post. Much less "spout".

You're the one "spouting", son.

[windansea]

18. ignore it mw

welcome to Clark country...and please don't sit it out...it's too important

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mw]

32. Well then, excuse me. (Although, you're not sounding any nicer)

:D

[JNelson6563]

39. While I disagreed with your initial post in this thread

I certainly didn't take issue with it. I fully respect your right to your own opinion. You seem quite reasonable and will join the ABB efforts after the primaries as I intend to do. I repsect that. I also thought your inital post was pretty respectful. Too bad the replies didn't all follow your lead.


I do take issue with folks with few posts jumping in and issuing blanket insults to huge swaths of fellow DUers. The compulsion to do so makes me suspect they aren't actually all that "new".

But, having several IDs ain't against the rules but making sock -puppet related jokes apparently are. Lesson learned.

No hard feelings, in the end I want us genuine Democrats who care about our country to come together behind the nominee and knock the snot out of Bush. New posters tossing out insulting one liners don't strike me as folks we can count on for that effort. On the contrary, the goals seems to cause and/or perpetuate division. Not what I saw in your post at all.

Julie--Democrat, Duer, Dean supporter and ABBer

On edit, genuine effort to "sound nicer" too :toast:

[mw]

41. Good words, and fair enough

Let's kiss and make up, and then get back to ABBA.

My personal quote: I'll vote for a tree before I vote for a Bush.

[hellhathnofury]

50. I can go much lower than that, a tree, bah!

I'd vote for half a moldy cracker before Bush!

[kayleybeth]

4. Welcome aboard, mw!

Glad to have you among the ever-growing ranks of Clark supporters on DU!

GO WES GO!

[Lefta Dissenter]

9. Welcome!!!

The more you see of Clark, the more you will be sure that he is the one. Go to his website www.Clark04.com and to CSPAN and watch as many of the videos as you can, particularly the town hall meetings.

I had been convinced that Clark was my man well before he declared, but that first NH Town Hall meeting set it in concrete for me.

Brilliant and compassionate - not just what we want in our candidate, but what we need in our President!

[Crunchy Frog]

29. The best resource on the web

for Clark media appearances is:

http://www.us4clark.com/mediaclips.html

This has most of his television appearances, as well as many radio interviews. I think you will be very impressed with most of them. He is especially good when he is being grilled by RW media shills. He really shows what he's made of in those. Look for the Asman interview from Faux news.

[Closer]

13. ...

If the clouds parted and God's hand pointed to me and a voice boomed "Hey you! YOU get to choose, right now, who will run against Bush!", I would have to think about it. But I'd settle, I believe, on Clark.

Well gosh darnit you've convinced me! God, are you listening? Wes Clark is the chosen one. God, can you hear me?

[Dr.Phool]

23. Everyone to his own conscience

I've also been a Dean supporter since day 1. Still am. But, the last couple of weeks a couple of candidates have broken through, and I think we have 5 good candidates who all have some very good pluses, and some minuses. The fact is Clark, Edwards, Kerry, and Gephardt have all risen in the polls on account of having strong messages, and an extremely negative campaign by the Republicans and the "librul" media. Not to mention other Democrats, and some guy named Joe.

I kinda liked Clark a little at first, but when the slander started in the media, I was turned off, but it all turned out to be BS. And, he's talking my kind of fight. I thought Edwards was an afterthought, until I heard him speak at the Florida convention. I was impressed. Kerry is finally talking like the opposition, as is Gephardt.

As I said, I'm still for Dean, and have also donated several hundred to him, but will have no trouble at all working for the above guys.

Remember, We're runing against a guy named george(or dick). Not each other. :toast:

:kick:

[Auntie Bush]

14. Congratulations... you're a real thinker

I wish we could convince more people

[Leilani]

15. Welcome to the Clark Camp

I know it's really hard to make these decisions, because it's an emotional as well as an intellectual decision.

Wes Clark will make a wonderful President. He is a man of principle, honor, & integrity who has served his country devotedly.

And he can win! He will win!

He'll take it to the phony little chicken hawk AWOL deserter, & show the country what it means to be a true leader.

Aloha & welcome!

Go Wes!

[mw]

19. I believe all that about Clark. Although Dean is a good man too

I don't want it to seem I'm down on Dean. Nope, not at all.

In fact, I first even broached in my mind the notion of possibly switching over two weeks ago, while I was preparing for last month's Dean Meetup and my heart just wasn't fully in it.

It took until today--thinking about it alot the whole time--before I even decided.

Both men, Clark and Dean, would not only be better than Bush, but they'd be exceptional presidents in their own right.

But Clark wins by a nose, with me.

[bitchkitty]

17. ???

Whatever. Best of luck to you.

[Lobo_13]

20. You've already been replaced

Like the Hydra, when one fair-weather supporter falls off, six more take it's place.

[mw]

22. "Fair Weather"?

That mean's your implying that Dean is NOT in "fair weather" now?

I think the Dean campaign is doing great. Dean is still, solidly, the front runner.

In fact, that fact made it harder to make my decision.

But say as you will. :\

[lurk_no_more]

36. link please

And then there were none!
” JAFO”

[Lobo_13]

40. Identified supporters

went up by 4,000 today alone.

I'd say he's been replaced.

[mw]

43. Yes, but it would be 4,001 if I didnt leave!

Excuse me, I'm just carrying your somewhat bizarre statement to it's illogical conclusion. :D

If I'm "replaced", then good for Dean.

We're all Democrats.

[Lobo_13]

48. Still a net gain

of 3,999 supporters. If you were indeed a supporter, then you would have already been counted.

I'm not going to slob on your knob to keep you from jumping to Clark. I'd rather have the 3,999.

[mw]

51. Good. I'm glad you won't do that.

It would be weird, I think. I mean, you're a guy, no?

:D

[NV1962]

21. Bienvenido/a a bordo!

It won't take long before Clark ignites the hope and inspiration of many, many people around the country. I feel it, I'm seeing it happen. He'll be #44.

Bushco KO in 04!

[necso]

24. I don't see it as a huge step.

I think that Clark people and Dean people have a lot more in common than all the bickering would indicate. We are passionate about our ideals, furious with what is going on in this country, determined to set it back on the right course and are willing to break the mold to do so.

For me it is all about the best chance to beat Bush --- within the constraints of supporting a decent human being who has responsible Democratic plans for the country (I know lots of people hate and disregard this kind of talk about electability --- so flame away.)

I like Dean and would love to see him stick it in chimp's ugly mug --- But not at the cost of risking the election. Clark, I think, plays better in places like my home state of Ohio and other moderate/conservative places. Like Michael Moore says it comes down to a few thousand votes in a few states. I believe that Clark is best able to get these votes. I think that he will also be best in terms of maintaining, gaining, or minimizing our loses in congressional seats.

While I still maintain that Dean is the better "street fighter" and would keep on fighting a stolen contest long after the others have given up "for the good of the country", this also isn't enough. (Fellow Clark supporters flame away.)

Any of the major Democrats will do their best to put this country on the right course in 2005, if they win --- and they have our support. There may be things in their individual programs that we do not like (I am real big on guns for instance), but sometimes we must compromise if we are not to give in to the "Great Reaction".

Welcome aboard --- now let's all stop Kerry.

[DIBL]

25. Great to have you on board

I applaud you for the courage to make a very tough decision. You're right in that Dean has the better campaign, but Clark has the convictions, personal attributes and background to beat Bush with modest amounts of money and without all the big campaign hoopla. He's the best candidate by far and when I made my decision to support him I was thinking beyond the next elections and about who I wanted to have as President for the next 4 or 8 years. Electability came as a bonus. Clark is a wonderful human being, a true gift to this nation. He's intelligent and compassionate. And best of all, he has the balls to stand up for what he believes in.

Did you read his 20-year vision speech that was posted on his website recently? If not, I suggest doing so. It shows you how far thinking Clark is.

http://www.clark04.com/speeches/027/

Also, you can find tons of his video clips on this site. I especially recommend some of the NH town hall meetings.

http://www.us4clark.com/mediaclips.html

Have fun!

[Crunchy Frog]

26. Let the flaming begin!

I hope you're wearing asbestos undergarments because I have a feeling you're going to be needing them.

But anyway, welcome to the Clark camp. We're glad to have you on our side.:)

[mw]

31. I can't be flamed. I didn't say anything flameable.

I haven't trashed Dean--nor would I, because Dean still rocks and if he wins the nomination I will support him enthusiastically.

I just made a margin call: I think Clark would be better. A call I probably wouldn't have even been forced to make if I wasn't the Dean Meetup coordinator for my area.

Anyone who would flame me based on what I've said--an honest evaluation and words of respect for both Dean and Clark--are not being reasonable and are not worth being taken seriously.

[windansea]

33. I agree

you even prefaced it by saying you don't like conversion posts

you were very fair and reasoned

we salute you!

[Crunchy Frog]

54. I agree

you didn't say anything flamable, and most people seem to be being pretty civil about it. I think the new rules are really having an effect because I've seen posts like yours degenerate into massive flame fests in the recent past.

My statement was more based on what I've been used to seeing recently, but it looks like it wasn't really a fair statement this time.

Anyway, glad to have you on board, and glad to have you politically active no matter whom you choose to support.:)

[angee_is_mad]

30. Welcome aboard!!!

[lurk_no_more]

34. Great choice

and welcome.

As you've noticed there are some that will rain on your parade but your amonst friends in the Clark camp.

I never saw the attraction to dean myself but thats ok, alot of others haven't either.

You won't be sorry, your observations are spot on, the General will win this.


And then there were none!
” JAFO”

[srpantalonas]

35. Disappointing...Clark is a latecomer

Plus he's flipflopped all over the place on a number of issues. He doesn't have the strength of his convictions, Dean does. I understand the desire to go for someone with military credentials who says the war was wrong, but you're supporting someone who joined the choir long after the preacher assembled us. He's a carpetbagger--a good guy, no doubt, but a carpetbagger.

[oxymoron]

42. Proof of the "lifelong Republican" charge?

Any proof at all? He was NEVER registered as a Republican. He an Independent like 90% of the citizens of Arkansas. I'm not even a Clark supporter and I could find that.

[srpantalonas]

45. sorry--you're right. my bad.

but he was a late-comer to the party and to the campaign.

[Lefta Dissenter]

46. thanks for editing

Editing to say thanks for editing your post

Feel free to seek information at www.Clark04.com

[stickdog]

37. You'll be back soon. If Clark gets 20% of the media smears that

Dean has already endured, he's toast.

And it's already starting:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2004/01/15/politics1623EST0684.DTL

[mw]

38. Good point. And you may be right.

One of Dean's many strengths is that he's already been "vetted" by the riech wing media.

Clark really hasn't.

But Clark appears to me to not take a punch sitting down, as well. We'll just have to wait and see.

I supposed I will be "back" to Dean if Clark somehow gets bumped out of the race. We'll see what happens.

[lurk_no_more]

47. Watch and learn

Clark has lived under real attacks of more than words. He doesn't flinch, he doesn't cower, and he surely doesn't quit.


And then there were none!
” JAFO”

[Lefta Dissenter]

49. Right on, Lurk

Do you really think that a man who continued to command his troops with bullets in his body and who has faced down dictators is afraid of Karl Rove?

Witness the Faux Smackdown! That was child's play for Clark!

[stickdog]

58. Right. Clark just gets his friends in high places to call off the dogs.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=125147&mesg_id=125147

[MoonRiver]

44. Welcome, you've made a wise choice!

Clark is the most dynamic, charismatic, and electable among the top tier, IMO His policies and plans for straightening up our domestic issues are right on target. From the time about 1 year ago when I heard the first rumors that he might run I was intrigued. The more I learned the more I became a major Clark fan. And it just keeps getting better!

GOOOOOO CLARK!!!!!!!

[Jerseycoa]

52. I know this was hard for you

But welcome to our team.

Take a stroll over here:

http://clark04.com/welcome/

:toast:

[Clark4VotingRights]

53. Welcome mw. I have similar reasons for choosing Clark.

I didn't switch.
But I think he's the best candidate with the best demographics.
And the best resume, intellect, charisma, the works.

Michael Moore really said it perfectly.
(Hey, he's a writer!)
http://www.michaelmoore.com
(Wow, he totally redid his site for Clark. :bounce:)

[Toucano]

55. You shoud be commended

It takes courage and an open mind to examine our all the candidates fairly.

I'm a strong Clark supporter, but I've not stopped listening to and examining the others. This race is really wide open so it only makes sense to treat the candidates I don't prefer with an open mind. I may have to carry a different banner after the convention, and I will be prepared to do that.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, and good luck with your new meetup group. :hi:

[mw]

56. Thanks for the Meetup good luck. Now I have to decide.....

I have to decide how to tell my Dean Meetup. The core people--about 3 others--all depend on me to be the guy running it, as they're not public speaking types.

Last time, there were 22 of us at the meetup. That's GREAT in this Republican area. But now I have to wonder....

Should I quietly exit, without a word except to the core team?

Should I post a note to our Yahoo! Group, telling everyone?

Should I try and woo a few to the Clark side with me? Very likely, some will follow me no matter what, as I tend to be the one who defines the group, and I'm changing the definition!

I'll probably go fairly quietly, but state my reasons simply.

[Tom Rinaldo]

57. That was a difficult, and even brave, decision for you to make.

Brave because you undoubtedly will be keenly disappointing a good number of people who you have become close to throughout a righteous struggle. I have been part of several grass roots political movements, and the bonds I made there with fellow activists deeply reinforced my motivation to continue, and intensify, my efforts.

I have also had the lonely experience of realizing at least on one occasion, that the goals of my movement's activity were being subtly compromised by our internal dynamic, which placed too high a premium on the celebration of our movement solidarity, and not enough on the effectiveness of the tactics we were using to bring about larger social change.

Too many derogatory comments have been thrown out by some, about "zealotry" shown by Dean's grass roots supporters. Without passion there is no zealotry, but also no intensity, and little in the wsy of real commitment. Zealotry is a dangerous by product that sometimes is caused in the course of an empowering personal transformation. It must be guarded against, but empowerment itself should always be cherished. The fact that you remained open to reexamine the choice you made, speaks eloquently about the motivation that drives your political commitment. The very same would be true had you weighed the candidates again, but then realigned yourself with your original choice. Dean's campaign has a great many passionate and committed people in it. I know how hard it must be for you to part ways with them now.

The upcoming Presidential Election is far too important though, it allows none of us the luxury of playing it like a team sport, not if we recognize what is really at stake in November. In almost all cases people back the candidate that they do because ultimately they believe it will be best for our nation if that man secures the Democratic Party nomination. We have an obligation to do the best that we can to buttress our belief with compelling reason, and reasoning can change with changing circumstances and new information. Not always, but sometimes.

For me, the possibilities raised by Wesley Clark possibly entering the Democratic Presidential race caught my attention before I committed to Dean's campaign. Otherwise I would have joined up with Dean last Summer. None of the other candidates at the time were articulating the essential messages, or delivering them with sufficient power. Yet I suspected that in the current right wing staged and managed political landscape, where loyalties were fused with fear after 9/11, that George W. Bush would be very difficult to defeat in 2004. So I decided I should at least look into Wesley Clark before signing on with Dean. I realized Clark's high ranking military background and National Security experience would be a strong, and maybe even essential, asset for a Democrat to bring into the race against Bush.

So look into Clark I did, and I looked hard and close because I have been a life long anti-war activist dating back to 1967 and the protests against the Viet Nam War. Part of the painful recognition I described earlier was brought into focus when I was forced by events to reconsider a changing role for the U.S, military during Clinton's Administration. For probably the first time in my lifetime, I actively looked at the possibility that United States Armed Forces could conceivably engage in fundamentally humanitarian missions that could actually, on balance, further the cause of human rights. I detested the primal nationalist inspired "ethnic cleansing", Rape Camps, and wholesale slaughter of civilians that was unfolding in Bosnia. I was horrified at the hate fueled wanton genocide that killed many hundreds of thousands of Rwandans, and I was further angered and appalled when Serbian nationalist dogs of war militias emerged to conduct renewed "ethnic cleansing" in Kosovo. I found myself more and more wanting the United States to do something to prevent those horrors, and reluctantly but inevitably I accepted and then even advocated for our military to have a role in doing just that.

That was then. I read newspapers and watched the news. I knew a little about General Clark, but as it turned out not very much, because I had no sense at the time how instrumental a role Clark played, at very real risk to his personal career, to confront and defy further genocide in the Balkans. I remember some cynicism I and some leftist friends had at the time also, yes the U.S. might fight to protect white Europeans, but never black Africans. I didn't know that Clark had been an isolated voice at the top levels of the military favoring sending U.S. forces into Rwanda. I only learned that when I stated paying attention to Wesley Clark as a possible Presidential candidate not that many months ago.

You wrote: "But the damn guy just gets better and better..." and I know you mostly meant that in the sense of the campaign that Clark is running, but that also summarizes my entire experience, as I have familiarized myself more with Wesley Clark. Believe me I've done a lot of that. I drove to New Hampshire to hear him speak at a county Democratic Party dinner event. I went to two of Clark's personal fundraisers in New York City. I've watched hours of him on network and cable news programs, and more hours still of him on CSPAN. The more I get to know Clark, the more I find to admire in him, and I mean admire Clark the man, not just the newly minted politician. Clark is for real, if you take the time with an open mind, I am confident you will see that.

Remember, I started out being interested in Clark as the guy who possibly would be best to counter Bush, and I'm convinced of that now more than ever. But I also increasingly believe that Clark will make a great President, that what he has to offer us Democrats is much more than our best chance to send Bush packing. I think Clark is making huge strides in reshaping the framework of American political debate, and he is ripping Republican "buzz" words right out of their throats while doing so. No Army General is "soft on defense". You can start right there, but that's not the end of it. After being force fed, for decades, all the increasingly sophisticated permutations of "America love it or leave it", it is startling and oh so liberating to listen to General Wesley Clark proclaim "Dissent is Patriotic".

Clark is uniquely capable of stealing Republican Thunder to deliver Democratic Lightning. Remember the "Reagan Democrats", and how their defection ultimately shifted the predominate political balance of power in this country? Ger ready for Clark Republicans. I believe Eight years of Clark in office will leave the Democratic Party ascendant again, with no sex scandals to screw it up this time. Clark is a Trojan horse alright, but not the one his skeptics describe. Clark is a progressive Trojan horse, able to breach Republican walls with Democratic content. In my opinion Clark's platform and priorities is at least slightly left of Dean's, but swing voters still view and accept him as a moderate. Perfect.

If you remain a Clark supporter, you will discover the growing and supportive movement of dedicated and active volunteers that are the heart of Clark's campaign, and I think you'll find much that is familiar to you in it.