Can I ask a question of Dean supporters?

[Skip Intro]

I don't post in this forum much, and I don't know the rules (I just agreed to that page - I will read it, tho), but I read something here a day or two ago that stood out - even in this forum.

I read that a lot of Dean supporters had left this board. And that bothers me. I'm a DK supporter, and i hope he blows everyone away, including the resident moron - but I have a strong second in Dean.

My question, and I guess it could be directed at anyone who might have the answer - Dean supporter or not - is: why leave???

Dean won't quit because the fight may seem too much, why would his supporters?

Maybe I got bad info, but I read this "account" more than once here recently. And it struck me then, and it strikes me now, what is served by abandoning the debate?

One post said "hundreds" of Dean supporters have left this board. As a potential future member of the Dean camp, I have to ask, why just quit?

[wtmusic]

1. I have no idea

They're still here--I see no diff :-)

[Dookus]

2. I don't believe significant numbers of Dean supporters have left....

I only heard the claim made when Clark started winning the DU polls. It's an excuse. Some people just refuse to believe that their guy isn't popular with everyone.

[RevolutionStartsNow]

20. Indeed, they have

If you could compare the "check in" threads from the summer and early fall to the ones now, you would be surprised. Many many Dean DUers left, for various reasons. I won't speculate on all of those reasons, draw your own conclusions.

[polpilot]

29. Some Dean supporters, myself included, aren't interested in the spirit of

the anti-Dean threads and some Dean supporters, myself NOT included,
have posted very good educational threads about Dean for the past year. I've appreciated their informational posts about Dean's history and would think their work is done. There are PLENTY of seasoned veteran politicians running for the demo nominee and I certainly support DUers right to support those.

Dean '04...

[bearfartinthewoods]

35. some found following the rules too onerous

[RevolutionStartsNow]

42. ....or something

heh

[Khephra]

31. They started to leave WAY before Clark started doing better in the polls

Trust this Dean supporter on that one. You can only be called a cultist so many times before you realize that you don't want to hang out somewhere anymore.

[EXE619K]

3. My honest speculation?

They left to do ground work for the campaign.

Just my opinion but, it is kinda silly campaigning for your guy here.

[Skip Intro]

12. Oh, that's true

I've posted very few "Dean is the man" threads, if any. I post very few candidate-specific threads period (should be no indication of my support, however - that's what my avatar is for). And I'm not a rabid Deanie (yet) - and HD has plenty of "campaigners" here.

My big "woah" was when I read that many Dean supporters had left DU (yes, that was in response to a secondary showing on a recent DU poll).

Why leave, is my question. I'm not "campaigning." - not here, anyway.

Not yet.

[Toucano]

16. That's really true.

I spend far less time here lately because I've had so much to do.

This is the time for the rubber to hit the road.

on edit:

I realized you were asking Dean supporters. I hope you don't mind my chiming in.

[mzmolly]

71. Yup, some of that!!!

:)

[dsc]

4. There are a number missing

some have left involunatarily (ie gotten banned) while others have gotten tired of fighting the same battles, with the same people, over and over again. As one who is posting way less than he used to I can say that the constant barrage of dishonest, mean sprited, and as of late often sexist attacks on Dean and especially his wife have led me to post less. It is either that or go postal and get banned anyway.

[mzmolly]

70. Ditto!

:hi:

[Upfront]

76. Not So Long Ago.

I came here several times a day and found the site to be very educational. Then about the time I decided on Dean the bashing started, grew and grew some more. Being a Democrat first, I can't stand to see us kill our own. It has just evolved and I maybe come here once a day now, if that. There are other things to do that don't leave me sick at heart.

[imax2268]

95. I'm here...

just not as much...can't stand the negativity between the candidate supporters...I sill lurk and read stuff though...

[dweller]

5. The temporary minimum post count rule?

The forum rules changed, then changed again later (not sure of the time span).

minimum of 250 posts to post on GD04 was a requisite.

it was dropped later.

:shrug:

dp

[aquart]

6. They formed their own message board, is what I heard.

But that doesn't mean they left. Just that they have an attack-free venue for discussion.

[arewethereyet]

120. thats an interesting choice of words

attack free.

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[IronLionZion]

10. amen sister!

Go Dean! damn, I wish i was in Iowa!

[wtmusic]

15. good pt--a lot of hardcore Dean supporters

are in cold, cold IA. Clark supporters are resting comfortably at home :silly: j/k

[Clark4VotingRights]

25. You take little digs like this, in an otherwise nice thread.

But Dean supporters are the ones who are supposedly
victimized by DU attacks?

[bitchkitty]

8. I can't tell you -

it's against the rules.

[IronLionZion]

9. I left GD and GD 2004

because of the brutal yet completely stupid shit being slung around. And when my guy Dean (my other guy is Clark) became the target of most of them I just decided "screw this" and headed to the lounge.

[slinkerwink]

11. that's what I'm doing mostly anyway

Also, I bet the attack threads on Dean still wouldn't stop if all Dean supporters left GD:2004. Some people just like to bash Dean because they're used to it.

[kayleybeth]

13. I haven't noticed any significant amount of Dean supporters leaving DU

and it wasn't until Wes Clark started regularly winning the DU polls that I heard it suggested Dean supporters were leaving DU in droves.

[Melinda]

14. No one has quit, a few are on sabbatical is all.

Dean supporters are busy working to take our country back - especially now. So, no worries. :hi:

[fabius]

17. I haven't left...

But I've been busy. My wife and I went canvassing for Dean and went to the community college. Plus the usual, work, etc. One of our friends went to Iowa to campaign for Dean. I've never been much for bashing other candidates because I've been a Democrat since 1972 and this is the best field we've had in many, many years.

I think Clark's support among activists really is increasing as people find out more about him. He's pretty impressive. I'm still with Dean however.

One volunteer friend of ours told her husband (a Republican) that Ann Richards had endorsed Dean. So he says "Well, now I'm going to really have to think about this Dean guy". He's a big fan of Ann Richards. Go figure.

I see Kerry, Edwards and Gephardt making a strong run in Iowa and Clark making his move elsewhere. It'll be interesting. It's getting tight. But I'll bet money that the whole West Coast goes for Dean. Because we're like him: optimistic, unpretentious, savvy, energetic, and forward-looking.

[shance]

18. Dean won't quit because the fight may seem too much, why would his support

Thank you NuDUer***

We aint leavin****

And most of us love the other candidates as well, of course including Dennis Kucinich, who has been incredible in informing and enlightening Americans too.

Thanks for the post.

[eileen from OH]

19. Quit?

Um, not bloody likely. Could be that Dean supporters see DU as a not particularly useful use of their time.

eileen from OH (just guessing)

[Paragon]

21. Because it's become boring as fuck?

Poll this, my guy that, your guy this, spam spam spammity spam.

I don't need this forum to read Dean bashing - I have network news and the other campaigns if I feel like banging my head against a wall.

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[blm]

34. BWAHAHAHAH....good one.

;)

[Cheswick2.0]

81. There ya go

!

Frankly I don't know why this is even a topic of discussion.

Most Dean people are very busy campaigning. Several of us have gone to Iowa and several others to NH.

[drfemoe]

22. I haven't left

.. don't plan to leave. I know a few were shown the exit for disruptive behavior.

I know quite a few of us lost heart after the Anybody but Dean Team used DU to solicit members. (Had nothing to do with Clark winning DU Polls.) I don't read GD2004 or post as much since then. My political history is progressive independent so I can't understand what is going on with the Party loyalists.

We have a crook in the white house who is by-passing Congress to appoint judges now .. after everything else he's done.
I was hoping the Democratic Party would save what remains of our democracy, but that still remains to be seen.

[sandnsea]

24. I haven't noticed it

I saw that post. But I haven't noticed a mass departure. The same people who were here 6 months ago supporting Dean are still here. I can only think of one that's gone and announced it was due to Dean bashing. That's it. I won't say anymore because I think this is against the rules.

[quaker bill]

26. I post less

Folks here seem pretty convinced that they have made the correct choice of candidate, regardless of which one they support.

On the other hand, out in the larger world, many are just beginning to focus on the race.

I oppose Bush* and support Dean. I find that message an easy sell in most other places. People are ready to become engaged and run this squatter out of office for a lot of very good reasons.

Whether they eventually become Dean supporters or supporters of another Dem doesn't matter as much to me as getting their commitment to become involved in defeating Bush*.

Basically I can spin my wheels here trying to reach the converted and committed supporters of other candidates, or I can be out there drafting people into the movement to retake the country. The latter is both easier and more productive.

[curse10]

27. I suspect that it isn't true

that's just my opinion though.

[Walt Starr]

28. I could tell you

but then I'd get banned.

:(

[LuminousX]

30. The answer is fairly straightforward

One of the things a campaigner has to do is maintain a high level of morale.

DU is all about demoralization of the opposition. My own participation has faded a bit and if the tone and temperment doesn't change after the primaries, I too will be leaving. I fully admit, that at the moment, I'm addicted to the conflict and arguments, but it gets old defending against the same accusations over and over when you know nothing you say, not argument you put forward will ever convince the opposition.

When you are actually trying to get someone elected, you have to calculate the best use of your time. You can spend four hours arguing until you are blue in the face with someone who will never support your candidate, or you can spend four hours distributing flyers, making phone calls, writing letters, or having discussions face-to-face with members of your community who have the possibility of being swayed.

Will the Dean people who have left return? Possibly. DU is one of the better Democratic oriented discussion boards around and for many who have built up a reputation here, they may wish to return at a less rancorous time to rejoin the real fight, the fight against Bush.

[PassingFair]

132. I agree, Lumi...

I've been an avid reader and some-time poster for some time. I used to tell everyone about DU.
When I find myself too angry to fall asleep at night, it's time to leave.
I have kept my criticism of other candidates to a minimum, never bringing them up unless unduly provoked. I have bashed none (OK, I'm guilty of Lieberman bashing) of them to the extent that Dean has been smeared around here. I just don't have the time to post link after link debunking the crazy stuff some people here delight in flinging around.
I'm spending the rest of the primaries working for Dean. It'll be hit or miss for me from now on.

[Jerseycoa]

32. Don't know

If this is true or not. I'm sorry to say I have a great number of Dean supporters on Ignore, so I don't know if they are individually still here or gone, although they are well-represented by their collective folder in threads. After New Hampshire, I'm going to take everybody off and start fresh. I just couldn't take the noise anymore.

[KaraokeKarlton]

33. Here's the Cliff Notes-type version of the story

For months many individuals were calling Dean supporters cult members, making kookaid cracks and even going so far as to compare Dean supporters to Nazis and Dean to Hitler. Because these insults and personal attacks were worded to sound like attacks on a group, it was basically a very underhanded and sly way to slip in an attack on a person while using the allowance of attacking a group. Personally, I feel this behavior should have been nipped in the bud immediately, but hindsight is 20/20 and it was eventually addressed. Unfortunately Dean supporters had already been offended and were already frustrated that it had been allowed for so long. Things really went downhill when that "Stop Dean Movement" thread was started. Initially it was locked. Then it was reopened, which I believe was a significant mistake. That's when a lot of Dean supporters from DU got the impression that DU is in some way biased against Dean. For the record, I don't think that there is any bias. However, I do see how some people could feel like there is. The job of the admins and mods is a difficult one. They've got people on their ass all the time, and frankly, it's impossible to make everyone happy. So I see valid arguments on each side of this issue. Another big part of the problem is that there really is no way to have an open, frank and honest discussion about this because it's against the rules to do so. I'd really like to see a special thread opened to hash all this stuff out and see if the hard feelings can be resolved once and for all. There have been mistakes made on both sides from frustration, anger, pride and just people being human.

So yes, many Dean supporters either have been banned, left permanently, taken a break until after the primaries are over, stopped posting, limited their posting or are very close to doing one of the above.

I hope that at some point there will be an open discussion had to address the situation so that it will be resolved.

[janx]

39. That's a fairly good summary, KK.

Yep.

[edzontar]

52. This is an accurate accounting of the situation...

There is more, of course, that we cannot get into.

Basically, the board changed drastically after Clark came into the race.

And I would say, changed for the very much worse.

That is why I am vehemently, passionately opposed to clark;s campaign.

I am afraid that the destruction his campaign brought to this board could be written across the entire party this fall is he is our nominee.

[KaraokeKarlton]

59. I don't blame Clark nor should you

This is nothing but a case of both sides making some mistakes and not being willing to own them due to being too proud to admit the part they have played in the problems. It's not just one side at fault. Yes, some things were not handled in the best way, but a lot of people behaved very badly too. It's 6 to one and half a dozen to the other.

I don't like Clark either, but his entrance into the race isn't what caused this.

[Tinoire]

112. The the enrance into the race

of a candidate who is appealing to both Democrats and Republicans at the same time is bound to cause problems on a left-leaning progressive board especially when there is a huge, sudden influx of people who start defending the very things the majority of the posters on this board have stood against from the start- such as the School of the Americas and the organizations of which Clark is on the Board of Directors. In addition to the spin used to white-wash these things, there was some very aggressive, very heavy-handed activity from the start.


Before Clark's entrance we had candidate wars at DU- now we have huge ideological wars where wars are spun as good things (humanitarian missions), SOA teaches human rights, occupation is not low-conflict war far, Soros is a hero, all the way to McCain for VP. This is not the DU I joined. This DU is worse than the I/P forum and I pity the admin who, in the interest of a Democratic win and fairness to all the candidates, is caught between a rock and a hard-place on how to maintain an uneasy peace.

[KaraokeKarlton]

114. Agreed

and that's actually a much bigger part of the problem than many seem to realize.

And with that I'm going to go get ready for work. :D

[Walt Starr]

75. This was well said Edzontar

For my part, Clark is out of the question.

I'd vote for Joe Lieberman, holding my nose while doing so, but Clark will NEVER get my vote simply because I am too bitter about things.

Is it emotional? You bet!

Do I give a shit what anybody thinks of the fact that I'll never vote for Clark in the general election? Not a whit!

[Eloriel]

108. The first significant (noticeable) change

came with the "first wave" of Clark supporters -- sometime in the spring, possibly early summer, near as I can recall. There weren't that many of them but they were quite active and aggressive. There were also a very small handful of Kerry supporters who I first started noticing at that time (new? I don't recall) who contributed to the unnecessary toxicity.

Unfortunately, came a point when Dean supporters -- most of whom at that time had been here quite a while -- had had enough and started firing back. Either choice -- whether to engage or not engage -- represented essentially a "no win situation" for both Dean supporters and DU as a whole.

Actually, there are quite a few Dean supporters in various stages of leaving -- and while the new rules have some positives, there still seems to be a serious problem of uneven enforcement, which will mean more departures, I'm sure -- both voluntary and un-.

I wasn't able to sign in for a few days earlier this week. It didn't phase me at all, except that I wondered now and then in passing if I had any PMs or warnings waiting for me and of course couldn't use the search function. :shrug: If you can't post, you can't get banned without warning or explanation, as some have.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

124. Interesting Perspective, Which I Completely Disagree With

There were a lot of Dean supporters who were dishing it out against Kerry and others LONG before Clark entered the race. So your claim that there "came a point when Dean supporters -- most of whom at that time had been here quite a while -- had had enough and started firing back" is very much inaccurate, in my opinion.

No campaign currently running is innocent on DU.

DTH

[Pax Argent]

133. DTH is right. Democratic party dis-affectation was Dean's first plank.

Does anybody remember references to "Pink Tutu Democrats" by many Democrats and Independents? I think the surge in Dean's popularity was largely based on the dissatisfaction felt by a great number of the American people, Democrat and Independent alike, towards the Dems at the beginning of the war as an "opposition" party. Dean stepped forward and said what a great number of us were thinking. For this I still feel that we owe him a certain level of gratitude.

In all fairness though, he had the least to lose. At the beginning of the build-up to the Iraq War he was running last, Bush was riding ridiculously high in the ratings, and the right wing media was waiting to pounce on any Dem who would speak out against our glorious leader and his rush to war. The others needed to be careful lest they squander their political capital too early.

In summation, I like Dean the best, gaffes and all. In Dean I feel that populism has a chance. However, I will absolutely vote for any Dem who makes the cut.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

122. You're Opposing a Candidate Because Some of His Supporters Are Vocal

On an Internet message board?

Well, OK, but I have to confess I don't understand that position at all.

:shrug:

DTH

[Walt Starr]

123. Quite frankly, yes

supporters of any given candidate demonstrate to me how the candidate they support will govern in the absence of a record.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

125. Again, I Do Not Understand That at All

Do you really think Wes Clark, or his campaign, is directing Clark supporters to waste their time (to put it bluntly) here on DU?

Do you really think the Dean supporters here, by and large, have been significantly better than Clark or Kerry supporters?

I think failing to support a candidate because of the candidate's personality, issues, character, etc., is fair game. I do not at all understand failing to support a candidate because of what ordinary Americans unconnected to the campaign do. There's no causation, no responsibility. And primaries get heated, they always do.

:shrug:

DTH

[Tinoire]

109. That's about it in a nutshell. I am still in contact with many of them

And that about sums up what they've told me.

Adding anything to your post would get me one of those flashing yellow love letters from the Admin which has been put in a most difficult position in the last few months.

Many Dean supporters are off somewhere working in peace and harmony- away from the recent right-wing creep that brings us enthusiastic threads about how A-ok the School of the Americas is and how the National Endowment for Democracy spreads peace and democracy. More power to them. They're just fueling the Dean machine in peace and quiet.

Still not enamoured of Dean but Dean supporters rock! True progressives the majority of them. I look forward to the day their spirit returns here.

[KaraokeKarlton]

110. Well, it's like this

There are going to be things that Dean says or does that you won't like...same with any candidate. But Dean is reliable and honest. You won't ever wonder what he's up to, because he'll say what he's up to. Since he isn't inclined to be fueled by ideology, he's very fair, balanced and clear headed about finding solutions that usually end up working pretty well for everyone. And best of all...if you provide him with information that shows him that he's wrong on something, he WILL reconsider his stand. He's open to input from the people, and he listens. He genuinely cares.

And yes, I left out some of the issues a lot of Dean supporters are upset about. Actually, it's really one issue and most people probably already know what it is anyhow. My take on that is that all parties involved could have behaved better than they did and make more of an effort to communicate and be fair to each other. I still think it could be resolved to the satisfaction of all involved if it were not for the stubborn pride and refusal to accept responsibility for bad behavior. No one is innocent, and that's the bottom line. I also think there are some unrealistic and unfair expectations from both sides of this one. This would be another thing that I feel should be openly and honestly discussed in order to pave the way for healing. Okay, that's all I'm gonna say because I've really been making the effort to keep my nose clean.

[Tinoire]

111. Agree on both points, the first totally, the second generally

oh and on keeping your nose clean too!

[MGKrebs]

36. Yeah, what they said.

I think a lot of us are still here, we just don't respond to the trash as much.

Some very "vocal" members stay active, but many of us just don't see any point in engaging in these same debates over and over. It seems most everyone here has made up their minds already, so there is very little to be gained by continuing to try to get the message out.

Once Dean became the front runner, it seemed that any Dean comment got 20 insulting replies. Can't possibly respond to all, many don't deserve response anyway.

Gov. Dean does a pretty good job of explaining himself, to those who really want to find out.

There's too much of a "horse race" aspect of the whole thing. The major issues are largely out there and fully explored. New and significant information is becoming rare, so we end up talking about polls, and statements from years ago, and idiot pundits opinions, and who attacked whom first.

If we believe that continuing to promote Dean here- one forum on one message board- no longer does much good, it follows that we would believe that ignoring the Dean criticisms here won't hurt much either.

[Padraig18]

37. I've not left, and don't intend to. However, I can understand...

... why some have. This board took on a decidely VILE anti-Dean flavor a few months ago, and many Dean supporters left after it becamse clear that that was likely the way it was going to remain.

[Dookus]

41. And yet...

if you were a Clark supporter, you could easily maintain that the board took an anti-Clark flavor.

The smears against Clark are no better or worse than the smears against Dean. People see what they're looking for.

I have to laugh at the ominous tone of those who say "I'd tell you, but I'd be banned." The implication is that this board's admins have some reason for WANTING to get rid of Dean supporters, and that one can be banned for telling the truth.

That is simply untrue.

[TLM]

45. I could tell you why you're wrong...

But I'd get banned.

[Dookus]

47. uh huh... sure

Nobody's been banned for civilly telling the truth.

[edzontar]

54. Most people here, including myself, were not hostile to Clark

Initially.

For a long time, I considered him a good candidate and my second choice.

But the tactics of his DU supporters--most notably the "Stop Dean Movement" threads--have turned me against him completely--and I do mean completely.

And I know literally scores of DUers feel the same way, if not hundreds.

[Dookus]

57. and how many people were involved in this "Stop Dean Movement"?

less than a handful. Are Dean supporters that thin-skinned?

Do you think Clark hasn't been attacked here in similar ways?

[Cheswick2.0]

84. I could explain it to you Dookus

but I would be banned. Don't take that as a slam on the administration either.

[TLM]

86. Please show me the posts from the "Stop Clark" movement?

I'd like to see them.

[drfemoe]

65. My experience was different

I got here in October and had already done my research into Clark and decided his candidacy made me very uncomfortable. Even though a lot of Dean supporters had Clark for second choice, I never have. I have been posting my concerns about Clark since day one. Additional research and observation of his campaign have only proved to strengthen my initial findings.

My favorite thing about Dean maybe the fact that he says what's on his mind even when it is not the popular thing to say. One year ago, no one in our "free" country could get away with criticizing B*** (except maybe here on DU .. I wasn't here, so I don't know). That's why, when Dean gave voice to what I had been thinking for two years, I ran to his campaign. That is why I feel that anyone who wants to stop Dean, also wants to stop ME (and others in our camp) who want to bring our country back from the treacherous path of destruction is has been on most recently.

[Name removed]

88. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[newsguyatl]

93. TLM

i surely enjoyed your post... too bad it'll be deleted soon...


it's sad when the truth is seen as inflammatory or being "critical" -- a good sign things have gotten out of hand.



but you're absolutely right about him in everything you just said.

[Walt Starr]

94. Bingo!

It's sad, but sometimes the lesser of two evils must be the one that can only do damage for four more years and not the one who has potential to do even worse damage for as long as eight more years!

[Walt Starr]

77. Same way, I was even a Clark support for a while

now, I wouldn't even consider voting for him, ever.

[Cheswick2.0]

83. and many have lied and not been banned

[TLM]

87. Dean supporters have been banned for many reasons...

and if I were to go into them, I too would be banned.

[dave29]

38. I have not left

just don't have much time to post :)

This place has become awfully contentious - and I think a lot of people figured their energies were better spent promoting Dean somewhere where it mattered. It's not about running away from a fight - it's about going to where they can be the most effective.

Personally I have fun on DU - so that's why I hang around. Yes, even in the 2004Primary forum ;) I think it's important to balance the misrepresentations with fact, and on occasssion, take a swipe at one of the other guys. All good practice for the real deal once our nominee is chosen.

[bicentennial_baby]

40. They went away to their Yahoo group

I'm sure that's at least one factor...

[MODemocrat]

43. I'm still here; This is where I get the news

I'm not on here as much as I used to be, because of the work I've been doing for the Dean campaign. Sometimes a headline on the home page will make me take pause for a moment, but it doesn't take long to figure out where it's coming from. Most Dean supporters are truly committed, not quitters. :hi: :dem: :hi:

[lurk_no_more]

44. Just a guess but.....I think most are still here

I just think some are no longer dean supporters, I have seen quite a lot of dean supporters announce a change in support.


And then there were none!
” JAFO”

[TLM]

46. Nope... more than 100 Dean supporters from DU have left...

Most willingly as an act of protest, and some have been banned.

Those of us still here can not talk about any details, or we also will get banned.

[Dookus]

48. and I will maintain

that's it's still a ridiculous assertion that DU has a vested interest in banning Dean supporters, OR for banning people who tell the truth.

[lurk_no_more]

49. Are you insinuating there is a conspiracy afoot

to ban dean supporters? I really find this absurd.


And then there were none!
” JAFO”

[Melinda]

51. More than 100 have left? That's a hard number to swallow.

Seriously... have you hard data to support your asertion? I'd love to see it... pm it to me, would ya please?

[KaraokeKarlton]

55. There are over a hundred who are upset with the situation here

Not all have left, but many have. The level up upset varies from person to person. As for me, I feel mistakes have been made on both the side of Dean supporters who are upset as well as on the side of DU. Nothing would make me happier than to see everyone admit their mistakes, apologize and make the effort to fix things. However, there is a lot of pride and stubbornness on both sides that makes it difficult for that to happen. :shrug:

[Melinda]

60. Your numbers are based on what data, KK?

[KaraokeKarlton]

62. On my interactions with the group of Dean supporters away from DU

And like I said, there are varying degrees of dissatisfaction.

[Melinda]

64. What is the number of registered users at the new site?

[Walt Starr]

78. More than 125

I won't say exactly how many, but suffice ti to say more than 125 and growing daily.

[Melinda]

79. Geeze Walt, the number is 139. It doesn't hurt to say it, I promise!

And it doesn't seem to have grown much in the last three weeks. But thanks for responding.

[RevolutionStartsNow]

80. Why were you asking for "hard data"

if you have the data yourself? Curious.

That's a lot of people...125 or 139, whatever..

[Melinda]

89. Someone was kind enough to pm the data to me right after I asked.

And I didn't think I needed to come here and post the numbers once I had them. Walt then posted numbers I knew were ballpark, but not specific, so I posted them. If he hadn't, I wouldn't have. My curiousity was satiated long before his post. :)

[Walt Starr]

82. I guess you found your "hard data"

Of course, that represents only one of the sites.

:)

[Melinda]

90. I did, thanks. :-)

[Cheswick2.0]

85. Why Melinda?

What's the big deal?

[Melinda]

91. Look at the OP thesis...

The answer is right there. :)

[poskonig]

126. The number is between 100-200

I was a member of deanunderground.net before I was ostracized for switching to Kerry. The claims are true.

[edzontar]

56. At least 100...maybe more....

And I must say that the Clark suporters who drove them away did a great job of polarizing and ultimately crippling this board..but we are not defeated, nosiree, not by a long start.

[Dookus]

58. How did Clark supporters drive them away?

by disagreeing with them? That seems like awfully light grounds to leave a forum. Is unanimity of opinion a requirement for Dean supporters?

[Melinda]

61. I have a problem with unverified numbers

Do you have hard data to support that?

[Hoppin_Mad]

129. As a 31 day DU member you have seen this, eh ?

[Egnever]

50. Mostly becuase this forum is devoid of anything but gotchas

Its for entertainment purposes only at this point. There is no realy discourse here anymore only one attempt after another to paint x candidate in a worse light than y candidate regardless of the truth behind the claims or the impact it has in the fight against bush.

This forum has become a waste of time. Why fight with fellow dems if all we are going to do here is fight baseless attack after baseless attack our time is better spent on free republic where our arguments might actually have an effect on someone who is actually thinking of voting for bush.

[Logansquare]

53. Um, I think that number is exaggerated.

I have noticed that a lot of people who were posting here three months ago having either stopped or cut way back. And I'm not just talking about Dean supporters. Most of us who have made our decisions are busy working for our candidates, and are pretty much tired of arguing.

[LizW]

63. Several formerly frequent posters

who support Dean simply don't post here anymore. That is clear to me from looking at my own personal Dean supporter "buddy list".

I feel certain that these people have not "abandoned the debate", they have just decided that the debate here is not the best use of their time right now.

I hope they'll return when the primaries are over and the discussion here settles down to how to defeat BushCo in the general.

[farmbo]

66. The Clark Yahoo group migrated over in October...

And the Dean folks have been dodging bullets ever since. Many of us were just plain worn down. Hell any 'opposition research' talking point, no matter how goofy, was getting four or five threads and hundreds of posts. Many of the anti Dean posters were obnoxious and quite personal in their rhetoric. Thankfully, the Mods have banned some and established the new rules, which, frankly, saved me from leaving as well.

But I too am getting my Dean Internet fix from an alternate site where the contributors can share positive, pragmatic suggestions about the Primary election.

The election will not be won (or lost) on DU. When all is said and done, we're all preaching to the choir here. All of us who support a candidate need to spend less time 'getting the upper hand' in some DU thread...and more time knocking on doors for our candidate.

ABB!

[Dookus]

67. I've been here since long before October

I have to laugh at the presumption that somehow DU was the province of Howard Dean supporters, and then got invaded by outsiders.

That simply is not true, and is a weak justification. I don't understand why so many Dean supporters feel that absent unanimity of opinion, this site is less worthy than before.

DU never stood for Dean Underground.

[farmbo]

68. Its the attack culture we don't like...

And the distortion of the written word to score political points.

Clark supporters have always been on DU, but their numbers surged after he announced (Duh?) and IMHO the dialog has since been less civil. Wes Clark is a great candidate and he has many 'type A' personalities who aggressively support him on these boards.

That is why many Dean supporters are leaving DU.

[Dookus]

73. But do you really maintain

that Dean supporters have been nicer to Clark than Clark supporters have been to Dean?

I think any objective look at the board over the last few months would show that to be false.

Why is it Dean supporters feel so singled out? Do you really think you've been more civil about Clark than we've been about Dean? If so, I think you're reading the board with a prejudiced eye. The attacks on Clark are just as bad.

[maxanne]

113. no one is making the claims

you are stating. I'm surprised you'd be concerned about a migration of Dean supporters.

The level of discourse has changed here in recent months. The level of moderation, too. It's ridiculous to have to write a post so bland it won't be alerted on.

[farmbo]

116. Boy, you got that right...

We're all looking over out shoulders while we post these days.

[Tesha]

69. Have hundreds left? Probably not. BUT...

> One post said "hundreds" of Dean supporters have left this board. As a
> potential future member of the Dean camp, I have to ask, why just quit?

Have "hundreds" of Dean supporters left this board?
Probably not.

But you can be sure that "hundreds" of DUers have found other
discussion groups where the point doesn't seem to be tearing
down the Democratic front-runner. And the time that folks
spend on those other boards is time they don't spend on DU
any more.

They didn't "just quit"; they're just working in more-positive,
more-supportive, more-productive venues in support of
Howard Dean.

Tesha

[LuminousX]

72. Difference between leaving and disengaging

I'm certain hundreds haven't left, but at least a hundred have switched over to a more passive involvement with DU. There are names I just don't see anymore.

[Tesha]

74. The next fundraiser should be interesting.

> I'm certain hundreds haven't left, but at least a hundred have switched
> over to a more passive involvement with DU.

The next fundraiser should be interesting! A "more passive"
involvement with DU doesn't bode well for increased donations
and/or subscriptions.

In fact, I understand that a number of the now-"disengaged"
have asked for and received the return of their contributions
to DU. I guess they weren't very happy with what their
contributions were supporting.

Tesha

[CWebster]

92. Now that you mention it...

This is something that is starting to worry me. I am still here for the moment but I can't be sure what will be deemed "inapproriate" by the mods apparently and that puts me at risk of being banned. Why should I financially support a board that doesn't encourage my participation based on arbitrary criteria that causes me to never know if my posts are going to be deleted? Think it is just me? Well there are many similar stories among those 139 Dean supporting DUers who felt the need to provide a board where they could discuss progressive issues without having to contend with those arguing in favor of the SOA, for example. Hell, that debate is available with right-wing types plenty of places, so what is the point?

So, maybe the time has come to ask for a refund, because what we used to support no longer is worth the risk of being banned.

[Bonobo]

96. Dean supporters on this thread, I'd like to say this to you:

Hi, my name is Jeremy. Shake my hand and let's work together.

You and I agree on so much. Shit, compared to the rest of the country we are two peas in a pod.
I'll bet if we were in a roomful of Repukes, we'd be hanging out and as chumsy as you want.

I've decided to go from Dean to Clark because we must focus on the central goal. It disturbs me to hear that you would not vote for him even if he becomes the candidate. Can we talk about it quietly over a beer or a joint or something?

[Walt Starr]

98. Sorry, SkeptyCal, but no.

I will only vote for a ticket with Clark's name on it if Dean's name is there too. I would be willing to vote for just about any other ticket up to and including Joe Lieberman/Zell Miller.

[Bonobo]

99. Fine then, Walt.

But will you still take me up on the beer/joint. You never know...

[Dookus]

97. And yet again

I maintain that truthful, civil posts have NEVER been grounds for banning anybody.

I believe the problem here is that a number of Dean supporters are upset that others don't agree with them. If they've gone off to form another group, good for them.

Personally, I'm not interested in a political circle-jerk. I like DU because it reflects the broad range of interests in the Democratic party.

[Walt Starr]

101. Maintain whatever you like and believe whatever you like.

You're entitled to your opinion just like I'm entitled to the opinion that I will not vote for Clark in the General Election.

[Dookus]

102. I've never tried to convince you to do that...

I know you're shut off to the idea.

Alas, this thread is not about who Walt Starr will vote for. It's about the claim that large numbers of Dean supporters have left this site. It's been claimed it's because of the big mean Clark supporters who chased off the virginal, pure Dean supporters.

I maintain that argument is pure bunk. I think a handful of petulant people are upset that others disagree with them, and are going out of their way to feel victimized.

And by the way, I won't vote for Dean in the GE. Fair enough?

[Bonobo]

103. Man you guys, cut it out!

It's so silly to let the steam created by a 2-dimensional message board affect who you will vote for.
I know its easy for emotions to get up when you are looking at words on a screen instead of talking to a human being face to face. But please remember that you are both human beings with mothers and people who you love and who love you. So start acting like humans and democrats! Where are your manners? Besides, people are watching and the tone you set affects others as well.
\
You reflect on your candidates as well whether you like it or not. So if not for yourself, then do it for them.

[Dookus]

104. I don't think I've been rude to anyone here

I respect your opinions. I respect Walt's opinions. I ask for the same respect for mine.

[Bonobo]

106. Okay, not rude I admit.

Reread your posts. None of them are rude, true. So then why did you allow the rhetoric to make you say you wouldn't support Dean? I just wonder if maybe that isn't what has Walt so steamed up... maybe it's more personal than he wants to admit.

[Dookus]

107. no, it's not personal at all...

I decided that I wouldn't support Dean LONG after Walt made his decision, and it wasn't inspired by him at all.

Walt is one of the few solidly anti-Clark people I like.

[The Magistrate]

128. If You Will Forgive Me, Sir

Should Gov. Dean secure the nomination of the Democratic Party, you damned well should vote for him in the general election. The criminals of the '00 Coup must be defeated, and the only vehicle for doing so will be the nominee of the Democratic Party. Anyone who, on any ground, chooses not to vote for the Party's nominee is in fact supporting the current administration.

Please, Sir, reconsider your view and intention in this matter. Should Gov. Dean secure the nomination, he will have my vote, and my energetic support.

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[Walt Starr]

105. I believe the question of the original poster has been adequately answered

n/t

[LuminousX]

100. Admin and Mods are trying

I've seen the admin and mods jump through some pretty firey hoops lately and I give them major kudos. I do not believe, now, that there is an inherent bias on the moderator's part (though I would have been hard pressed to be convinced of that a month ago.)

Just remember, there is a lot more to DU than this forum. There are a lot of different ways in which DU is aiding the progressive cause. At least wait until after the primary season to see if it does pull together before making any rash decisions.

[NashVegas]

115. I'm Still Here

Although I rarely post in GD2004.

Recently the Washington Post ran an article about how campaign workers from the Kerry/Gep/Lieber/Clark/etc campaigns in NH were complaining about Dean campaigners were unwilling to partake in their off-field social activities. You know, fight like animals during the day then go be buds and network at night.

Here's the article:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A8439-2004Jan11.html

The unofficial rules for the young staff who work the New Hampshire primary have always been thus: By day they are rivals, press secretaries out-spinning each other, field directors fighting for every vote, interns standing at busy traffic corners holding their campaign posters, shouting each other down. But half an hour from midnight, they are fellow partiers, bumming cigarettes, buying each other beers, bound by the weird facts of their daily existence: long, long days, addiction to campaign adrenaline, month-to-month leases.

This year, however, the rest of the staffs complain that Howard Dean's people don't play by those rules. Stop by the Strange Brew or the Wild Rover in downtown Manchester late on a Friday or Saturday night and you're likely to find any combination of Democratic staffers drinking, letting off steam, talking about anything other than work. But to the great annoyance of everyone else, the Dean people are almost never there.



The people complaining about the lack of presence on their Dean counterparts is then contrasted by this:

The other campaigns talk about the Dean people with the same mix of condescension and envy that one might use toward an overeager colleague who just doesn't understand when to turn it off.

"I'm sure they think they're starting a revolution," says one press secretary for a rival campaign. "Just like when I was in college, and I used to listen to Rage Against the Machine a lot, and I thought I was starting a revolution, too."

And this:

One Friday night at the Strange Brew, Dean pops up on the news and staffers from two rival campaigns begin booing. Soon the mocking gets transparently bitter: "Woo-hoo. I bet it's Mardi Gras all the time over there. Party on, pass the organic peanut butter."

It's a situation reflected on and from DU, I guess.

Is it any wonder Dean's supporters are said to be operating under the radar?

"The Revolution Will Not Be Televised"

[formernaderite]

117. I'm new here as a poster...but have been lurking longer

I came here because the progressive energy, particularly for Dean was very exciting. I'm rather perplexed at the support Clark has been getting here. I could understand Kucinich,Kerry, Gephardt or Edwards for that matter...but Clark?
Being a new poster, I understand that most would be skeptical regarding my positions and motives. There is a natural process of intitiation in all things. Which is partly why I question the sincerity of those enveloping a newcomer politician instantaneously BTW: I love Dennis, he's my second choice.
Although, I do think there's been an upsurge of Clark supporters...I have no way of knowing whether they're new or old.

[PatrickS]

118. Well...

maybe they left because this place is so anti-Dean. Not too difficult to understand, hmmm?

BTW, I don't think this forum is healthy one bit. Just one slanderous thread after another.e

[RetroLounge]

119. For myself, I come and go, better use of my time

is campaigning for Dean, which is where I'll be tonight.

You can only watch so many circular firing squads and anti-Dean circle-jerks before it just gets so fucking boring and unproductive.

[GumboYaYa]

121. Put me in the "I'm to busy to waste my time

argiung camp..." Between canvassing, work, and trying to raise two kids, I don't have the time or patience to argue over the inane nonsense that gets worked to death in GD.

I hope Dean wins. If he doesn't, I'll be right there with you working for the person who does get the nomination.

[Name removed]

127. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[foo_bar]

130. I thought the moratorium was in response to Dean supporters

posing as Lieberman supporters in the middle of a DoS attack. I guess nobody but Skinner knows for sure.

[The Magistrate]

131. That Is What Administrator Skinner Announced

It was a wretched piece of juvenile excess, that certainly lowered my estimate of some disputants here....

[candy331]

134. I am a Dean supporter and will be one

all the way to the Whitehouse or until Dean says with his own mouth that he is out. I don't care who flames, my mind is made up and Dean is my choice. I don't feel the necessity to respond to every flame on Dean and I remain single focused and that is to support Dean. To me putting a Democrat in office just because they wear the label is not productive. That is why we have the mess we have in Washington because the Dems there have failed to do their job and we need new leaders and if not the sooner the party goes the sooner a new beginning can take place. I despise the Bush administration too but the lesser of two evils are not an option for me, I want real change as far as that can be done in an imperfect word.

I consider that a lot of the flaming was done by people whose motives were questionable anyway, some I feel are just trolls and disrupter's. I come here to hear the latest news and am selective in posts I read and reply to. I still like DU and am glad I found it but it will not control my life nor my choice for President.