Close scrutiny: Which candidate handles it best?

[blm]

This is an important consideration because of the realities for a Democratic candidate in a general election race.

I believe John Kerry will hold up best because his 30+ years have been scrutinized closely by his enemies and he has not folded. He was on Nixon's enemies list and had dirty tricks against him. Today the players are much the same.

Back when Kerry was exposing BCCI and IranContra, he was smeared as a "conspiracy theory nut" but he turned out to be right, BCCI was closed and the world got its first good look of what we now call the BFEE.

At that time Scaife set up an "Arkansas Project" on Kerry LONG before many heard the name Bill Clinton. Scaife also tried to bring down his sworn enemy, Teresa Heinz Kerry, for supporting Democratic candidates in Penn. against his GOP protege Santorum.

[patricia92243]

1. Dean is the only one that has had close scrutiny so far

[Dookus]

2. Hrmm..

I could've sworn I read something about the other candidates.

lemme check...


hmm.. nope. Only Dean's been scrutinized. Can't find a word about the others. :eyes:

[Padraig18]

4. I would say 'closest'.

That's to be expected, though, given his status as front-runner. :)

[blm]

23. Really? They've examined his records

and compared them to his rhetoric?

I don't think so.

Only process, rah-rah stories were told for most of last year.

Only the last couple months have a fEW reporters noticed that Dean's real record doesn't match his rhetoric.

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Padraig18]

5. 'Corporate media gave him a press plane'

Please back that statement up with a link.

[Padraig18]

11. Link? n/t

[Padraig18]

13. *crickets chirping*

:shrug:

[blm]

14. Chris Matthews reported it on Hardball last June when it happened.

Why didn't you challenge the assertion in the Hardball thread back then when he said it?

[Terwilliger]

8. A press plane?

Please!

So I guess the story about Dean receiving the brunt of negative media attention was just a plant? :shrug:

[blm]

15. Yes. That story was a SCAIFE generated story. Read it closely.

They grouped all the other candidates "collectively" and gave no breahdown of their data.

Scaife hates Kerry and his wife and his first "Arkansas project" was against Kerry during his BCCI and IranContra investigations. Surely you know this by now, with all the research you've done?

[Padraig18]

19. What 'press plane', blm?

:shrug:

[blm]

20. The one that the press has been using since late last June.

Or was that just a figment of Chris Matthews imagination when he said it on his show last June?

[Padraig18]

21. Who provided it?

Here are your exact words:

"Funny, because the corporate media gave him a press plane last June...." Who specifically 'provided the plane'?

"...8. If you make a factual assertion about a candidate that is not generally accepted to be true, you must provide a link to a reputable source to back up your claim. Allegedly "innocent" questions which are actually an underhanded effort to spread rumors are not allowed. If you really need to know the answer to your question, try Google...."
:shrug:

[blm]

24. It was on a LIVE Hardball thread last June.

Why pretend that he didn't have a press plane since then?

[Padraig18]

25. *W-H-O* provided it?

The assertion is that it was provided by the 'corporate media', and I am asking for proof of that assertion, sionce that assertion is not generally accepted as being true, insofar as I am aware.

Edit: Punctuation in the subject line.

[Padraig18]

27. ???

:shrug:

[blm]

28. The same way they make their decisions

on who gets a press bus.

Just because I can't NAME who made the decision doesn't mean that there isn't a press bus, and just because I can't NAME who made the decision that Dean would get a press plane doesn't mean there is no press plane.

Did Dean get a press plane or not?

Doesn't someone high up have to come to that conclusion or are ALL candidates given press planes?

[Padraig18]

29. Assumptions are not facts.

The facts of the matter are that most campaigns charter their OWN press plane and bus. The media does not 'provide them' to a campaign, and there is no evidence whatsoever that they have provided one devoted to covering Gov. Dean.

[Padraig18]

30. Kick

:shrug:

[blm]

31. Then WHY did Matthews report it last June?

Why is it that a press plane DID show up after that report?

If you want to, then alert me if that is your goal.

I'm not searching the archives for that LIVE Hardball thread. You didn't pipe up then to refute was said. No Dean supporter on that thread claimed it was a lie. In fact, they were rejoicing that it proved Dean had the "big mo"...only now does anyone want to claim that Dean didn't get a press plane issued to him last June. Go figure. Alert me. Make sure you send the mods the whole thread.

[Padraig18]

32. I didn't make the assertion, OR post it here.

One is not permitted to make assertions about candidates that are not generally-accepted as true without a citation, according to Rule #8. I neither made the assertion that the corporate media provided the Dean campaign with a press plane, nor did I post it here. Had I done so, I would have followed the rules.

[Cuban_Liberal]

33. You've pretty well defined the problem, IMO.

I don't think any 'progressive' poster should quote a RW shill like Matthews about anything without being able to provide verification independent of whatever babble spews forth from his lying, Repuke mouth.

[blm]

34. If Dean did NOT get a press plane then, alert me.

Simple enough.

[Cuban_Liberal]

36. If I said I was doing so...

... that would violate the rules. As regards the 'commonly accepted as true' part of Rule #8, I am also unaware that this is commonly accepted as true, and I'm not a Dean supporter. I would wager that Padraig18 is right--- Dean has his own press plane which his campaign pays for.

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AP]

16. That study has been discussed. Research was partly funded by Scaiffe and

other conservative foundations. The study said that his positive stories have gone UP in Dec (the last month in the study).

So, yes, the story about Dean being a victim of the media when he's actually helped by the media might be a plant.

Also, the study said that the positive stories for Dean went up dramatically in Dec.

So, they gave him the (Dean vs Bush, Dean anti-war) "negative" stories all summer to get him donations and attract the people who are motivated only be that.

Then, when people start comparing to better candidates in Dec, the media has jacked up the good coverage.

[arewethereyet]

6. got to be Edwards

the press has been all over each of them. Its just that there is nothing there to bust him on. He's aware of what he says and he's not done anything that would be a problem. If he used to hi-jack cars or steal milk money as a youth you can bet we would have heard about it.

I know you're thinking that I'm crazy but don't forget that they exposed Braun's issues from when she was last in office. She was never exactly a threat to win the nomination.

If your guy seems to be under unusual scrutiny, perhaps its just that he (or she) had more to scrutinize. Its up to you as to whether or not this is a problem.

[KittyWampus]

12. How About Edwards' Phrase "Washington Lobbyists"

I've always wondered why he put the qualifier "Washington" in there.

Edwards hasn't been scrutinized at all. His time is probably coming.

Oh, but lets have a taste of what Edwards can face regarding stuff like Pork Farms:

FARM BILL DEBATE CONTINUES IN SENATE: The Senate continued
consideration of the Farm Bill this week. In action of interest to pork
producers, the Senate passed an amendment by a vote of 51-46
that would make it “unlawful for a packer to own, feed, or control
livestock 14 days prior to slaughter.” The amendment applies to
beef, pork and lamb, but exempts poultry. Senator Helms and
Senator Edwards voted against the amendment.

[AP]

17. Because as a Senator, he's supposed to represent the interests of NC and

not the interests of the highest bidder. So he's saying that he will listen to people representing the interests of NC'ians.

As president, his plan is to blow the lid of lobbying, so don't worry that, suddenly, he'll listen to national lobbyists when he's president.

Incidentally, a NC bank lobbyist said in an article a while ago about Edwards dropping out of the senate run that Edwards used to rarely return his calls. Since he started running, he NEVER returns his calls. Edwards is fine with my book on this.

[KittyWampus]

26. So Edwards Is A Legislator Not A Leader.

And as a Legislator he should support the People of NC and not the special interests of the Corporations.

Which include Tobacco and Defense as well as Hog Farms.

He won't listen to National Lobbyists? Like the Sierra Club?

And his Advisor, General Shelton helped pile on O'Neill this past week indicating where Shelton's loyalties and partianship lie.

Edwards hasn't been put under much scrutiny... I personally am not going to go digging, couldn't be bothered. But every Candidate has plenty of stuff for their opposition to use

[arewethereyet]

38. he referes to them as Washington lobbyists as thats what they are

where is Congress ? Washington. There are lobbyists at all state capitals of course but their activities are not of a national interest. Edwards is on the national stage per this issue.

[adadem]

7. I agree

that Kerry certainly has a solid background. It helps much with integrity issues that he has never accepted PAC donations. He is a veteran, has a solid record of progressive initiatives and votes in Congress...that's what's important to me...I trust Kerry.

On the flip side he is not "approved" by the NRA and a good many gun owners look at the NRA as decisive in who to vote for. Dean gets high ratings from the NRA, Kerry does not. While that's important to me I know I am in the minority when it comes to gun control.

[frank frankly]

9. blm, you are correct about this

but I'm asking today for people to please continue pushing their candidate without destroying others.

you're info about JFK has perhaps swayed me, but I am so tired of hearing people smash and smear Dean. I don't think you do it much, but, man, it don't help and it makes someone like me who nearly lost my mind last march and was so Incredibly happy to hear Dean's rhetoric against bushco and the war...well, it makes me despondent. i never thought 10 months ago i would read some of the garbage i've read here. i personally have only bashed once here, right when i joined and the senate passed the mini-nukes. i learned.

keep the high road, blm, you are doing great work for JFK.

youre one of the best here.

[wtmusic]

10. agree

Dean is still far less polished than Kerry in that regard. He will get better as the race continues.

[AP]

18. I love Kerry, but he couldnt' control the discourse viz Dean on IWR.

I think Edwards stays on target better than any other candidate.

"It's the economy, stupid" was something that the Clinton team plastered on the wall of campaign HQ to remind people not to be distracted by Republicans changing the subject.

Edwards does that. I've seen the media try to frame the debate around issues they think don't work for Edwards and withing 15 seconds he's answered and dismissed the distration and reframed the debate over the thing he wants to focus on -- ie, within 15 seconds you're back to middle class opportunity, opportunity for your children, health, wealth, and happiness.

This hick is a effing genius, if you ask me. Nobody controls the discourse and keeps the debate framed on THEIR issues the way Edwards does.

[blm]

22. The press framed that debate. And in all honesty

Edwards could have helped expose Dean on his lie, too. Kerry backed up Gephardt when Dean lied about the Social Security issue, and Kerry backed up Edwards on Dean's Con flag baloney, too.

Unfortunately, the press would have ignored anything Edwards said about Dean and the IWR, anyway, just like it did Kerry for the most part.

[AP]

37. Bottom line: Kerry talked about what others wanted him to talk about.

I have yet to see Edwards forced into a conversation about anything other than what he's running on.

[MJP]

39. Kerry

All I did was read your subject line, and I immediately thought, Kerry.

Doesn't mean I support him today.

[Justice]

40. Clark

Clark has done a pretty good job handling scrutiny/adversity. He has some quick retorts that have been pretty memorable.