OK, so tell me how Clark is a True Liberal

[cryofan]

Well, I think with my recent research and subsequent posts here on DU, I have determined that Dean is definitely not a liberal...

All right, then, who is next?

Clark....can you Clark supporters tell me if Clark is a true liberal, and if so, how can you tell?

[SahaleArm]

1. Give a description of the criteria for what you ask...

Define a Liberal, Centrist, and Progressive and then I can give you a clearer answer.

[Melodybe]

2. He is pro-choice and speaks the truth, I'd call that pretty liberal.

These days anyone that has the balls to call the media and the repubs on their shit is automatically labeled a liberal.

I like Clark, I like it when he sticks it to the adminstration, who cares what you call him he is still a descent guy and a good candidate.

[Cheswick2.0]

17. Arlen Spector is pro-choice

So are many republicans from swing states. I don't know about telling the truth, many republicans and centrist democrats also tell the truth as they know it.
I am not saying Clark is a republican. I think he registered as a demcrat then he is one. However I do wonder how deep his "liberalness" reaches in his convictions.

[SahaleArm]

19. Liberal - One who is open-minded or not strict in the observance...

of orthodox, traditional, or established forms or ways. What is liberalness from your standpoint?

[dobak]

3. ok - here are a few reasons

1 - Pro-choice - Never had to vote on it, but I take him at his word

http://clark04.com/issues/women/

2 - Pro Affirmative Action - Fought for it in the military. Wrote a letter in support of UofMichigan in the recent case

http://clark04.com/press/release/095/

3 - Against sky high CEO salaries - Has said that the corporate world should more resemble the military pay scale. (Clark made $60,000 as a 4 star General in 1999)

http://www.boston.com/news/politics/president/clark/articles/2003/12/14/clarks_income_soared_after_army_career/

4 - Pro Union and supports making it easier for workers to organize

http://clark04.com/issues/americasworkers/

5 - Supports the environment

http://www.lcv.org/Campaigns/Campaigns.cfm?ID=1946&c=4

http://clark04.com/issues/environment/

-----------------------------

I also think he would be one of the candidates LEAST likely to get us into another war.

http://clark04.com/issues/10pledges/

http://clark04.com/issues/alqaeda/

http://clark04.com/issues/iraqstrategy/

[cryofan]

5. I lke what I saw on that americaworkers link you gave

Looks like Kucinich is going nowhere, and it may be important to beat Bush....I may have to support a democrat anyway, just for this election, although I would rather support a Green.

I was in the Navy for 6 yrs. And I hated it, mainly because it forced me to live so close to a lot of other people. But I liked the way it took care of you, although it was totally set up to cater to the officers and lifers. But the military is truly a socialist operation in so very many ways. So possibly Clark might bring that perspective to the presidency. And he does come from ordinary middle class America. That is very important to me. I might be able to support Clark.

But what is his position on increasing taxes on those in the upper income brackets? That is what we need to do! And not just the rich--we should increase it drastically on anyone in the upper 25% of earners.

[pa28]

4. True

He cannot easily be defined as a liberal based on his record so I won't even try. My personal feeling is the man is more of a centrist (after reading your sig line I assume you think political moderation equates to Republicanism).

While the record on paper might lead me to support Kucinich I believe the party is not capable of electing a true liberal at this point in history. Right now we need a centrist to buy time for a party that is dying from its own lack of organization. Try looking at some of the recent polls on party affiliation: as recently as 1992 the Democrats were a clear majority. Now, respondants are divided equally among Democrats and Republicans. Building a new majority must come first and then the crowning accomplishment of electing a true liberal.

Your question is a fair one but not really the issue at hand.

[Neoplatonist]

6. Clark is a philosopher

He studied philosophy in college. His reasoning is between being liberal and pragmatic. That's Aristotle's golden mean--the synthesis between excess and deficiency.

Left-wing liberals should chill out. Wesley Clark tries to find the truth in an argument. He's not driven by dogmatical behavior, bad habits, corruption or cronism. He's a man of idealistc principles. He's a retired 4-star general who opposed the war in Iraq. That's got to say something.

He's not only the most qualified candidate to become president, but he's the most highly educated, rational leader to lead America out of the mess that the chimpanzee-in-theif created.

I study philosophy and Smybolic Logic, too. Idealistic philosophers tend to be right down the middle on complex issues. If two people are wrong, which the chimp is 75% of the time, then the answer is somewhere in between. Clark not only knows that simple truth, he lives it every day.

[BootinUp]

20. I like your description of Clark

and I think it sounds very plausible.

[TLM]

7. Well he must be liberal because it was two whole years ago

that he was raising mone for republicans and saying:

"And I'm very glad we've got the great team in office, men like Colin Powell, Don Rumsfeld, Dick Cheney, Condoleezza Rice... people I know very well - our president George W. Bush. We need them there."


"We were really helped when President Ronald Reagan came in. I remember non-commissioned officers who were going to retire and they re-enlisted because they believed in President Reagan."

"That's the kind of President Ronald Reagan was. He helped our country win the Cold War. He put it behind us in a way no one ever believed would be possible. He was truly a great American leader. And those of us in the Armed Forces loved him, respected him, and tremendously admired him for his great leadership."



"President George Bush had the courage and the vision... and we will always be grateful to President George Bush for that tremendous leadership and statesmanship."

[SahaleArm]

8. Are you on auto-repeat mode tonight?

:evilgrin:

[robbedvoter]

9. After they gagged all others in using nicknames, they do the freeper thang

by posting one thing over and over...Just worried. I can understand why.

[TorchTheWitch]

11. oh! and here it is yet again! must be my lucky day

Did you actually read that speech? If you did, you somehow missed how it was overall a testiment to what we were doing wrong, what we needed to do to get it right, and came complete with a warning that we better wise up...

"Anyway, a lot of that is in my book. The title of the book is 'Waging Modern War'; I'm not going to go through all of that tonight. But I'll just make a small prediction: When this book comes out, it may be World War III. Because when you're there, when you're a general and you're caught up in these things, it's just like politics or business or anything else--you know a lot of people with different ideas. And I hope that we have learned something out of this experience in the Balkans."

I've found it interesting that when you cut and paste this same post, which you have done numerous times, you don't supply a link... can't imagine why that is. :eyes:

Do you know what a paid speaker does and why they're hired? Paid speakers aren't hired for any association they may have with whatever group they're paid to speak to but for whatever expertise they offer.

As an example, a friend of mine is a retired police officer. He frequently gives paid speeches at various schools about the importance of driver safety. Many of those schools are Catholic academies, and he's Jewish. Like any paid speaker, he includes a few nice comments about the group he's speaking in front of... in the case of his speeches at Catholic academies, he'll even say a few nice things about *gasp* Catholics! I assure you, he isn't going to be thrown out of Temple and stoned.

This is standard operating procedure. Paid speakers most often need to have their speech pre-approved before giving it, and it won't be approved without a few nice comments having something to do with the group they're speaking in front of.

There are subtle and not so subtle pokes at Repubs throughout the speech, and *holy mother of God!* he says not one single word against Clinton... can't imagine how that got by the censors.

[JVS]

22. Well you know what they say, "There is no zealot like a convert"

[cryofan]

28. hmmm....that's a good one, thanks n/t

[robbedvoter]

10. Unlike other candidates who STATE they are NOT liberal, Clark says:

Maher:
I want to read you a quote,
because Howard Dean said "...In Vermont, you know, politics is much
farther to the left. A Vermont centrist is an American liberal right
now." And then his campaign manager came out and said "That's not an
admission he's a liberal!" Which, quite frankly pissed me off. Somehow
they hijacked that word. And you're a Democrat, you said that last week.
Clark: Absolutely. (audience applause)
Maher: OK. I'm just wondering, of all the people who have the
credentials to say "liberal" is not a bad word, I'm wondering if I could
get you to say that.
Clark: Well, I'll say it right now.
Maher: Good for you!
Clark: We live in a liberal democracy. That's what we created in this
country. It's in our constitution! We should be very clear on this...
this country was founded on the principles of the enlightenment. It was
the idea that people could talk, have reasonable dialogue and discuss
the issues. It wasn't founded on the idea that someone would get struck
by a divine inspiration and know everything, right from wrong. People
who founded this country had religion, they had strong beliefs, but they
believed in reason, and dialogue, and civil discourse. We can't lose
that in this country. We've got to get it back.

[sandnsea]

13. I've always liked that

I've always thought that was exactly what we need to do to start talking about issues rationally again. The Revolution was about throwing off a King and law based on divine right. The country was founded on the Constitution which sought to protect us from divine right. That's how we get the discussion back to law and civil rights based on logic and reason, by advocating the true meaning of the word liberal the way Wes Clark does.

[robbedvoter]

14. True. I welcomed THAT controversy for the same reason.

I loved the fact that Clark had to make the case for what Liberal, Democrat means. I thought he made it well.
I think a lot of people need to be reminded of it.
yesterday, in Derry he made another interesting point: he explained that during the cold war he voted based on what he perceived as strength on National security. After the Cold war ended, he felt more visionary leadership was needed so he voted Dem.

[Cheswick2.0]

18. Bush made a great case for being a compassionate conservative

Bush is neither of those things.
But it is the 2nd part of you post that bothers me. During the cold war Clark felt he had to support republicans? Does he think Democrats were not willing enough to fight back, or build enough weapons or what?

[BootinUp]

24. Bush making a great case? - I must have missed that

The rest of your post is not important to me. Its the "But he's not pure argument" and I am tired of going there. There is plenty of material on Clark if you really want an answer.

[LandOLincoln]

12. How's this:

"I want to make something clear: I'm pro-choice, I'm pro-affirmative action, I'm pro-environment, pro-education, pro-healthcare and pro-labor. And if that ain't a Democrat, then I must be at the wrong meeting."

--Clark to the DNC, 10/3/03

[imhotep]

16. imagine

if the Dalai Lama decided to become a republican.
Thats how absurd Clark's "epiphany" to become a democrat is.
Words are empty. Actions are not.

[Renew Deal]

35. So what do you want him to do.

He has already submitted a brief to the supreme court advocating Affirmative Action. He has be recognized for protecting the environment in the Army. What's left? Do an abortion like Dean did?

[Bombtrack]

15. He said that he was a liberal on Bill Mahers show

(paraphrasing)
Maher: Well after Dean said yada yada(I forget what Dean said) in an interview, his staff immediatly got on the phone an emphasized Dean wasn't saying he was liberal. Are you going to admit to being a liberal and that that isn't such a bad thing?

Clark: Well of course I am, there's absolutely nothing wrong with it and I'm proud to be liberal.

-------

I'll look for a transcript but I think this was pretty close to what he said

[robbedvoter]

27. See # 10 for exact quote. Link:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=284779&mesg_id=287760&page=

[JVS]

21. You'll just have to take his word for it. There is no record to examine.

Kucinich is the real liberal in the race.

Dean is left of center, but at least we get to deal with a known quantity.

[SahaleArm]

23. If Dean is left of center then you must be accepting his words...

An examination of his records indicates otherwise.

[JVS]

25. I said left of center, not far left of center or leftist

[robbedvoter]

26. There is too a record. One way to see it:

http://www.clark04.com/americanson/

His record as a humanitarian may be relevant here:

http://Blog.forclark.com/story/2003/11/28/81836/095


****

[Padraig18]

29. Please define the word 'liberal'

Thank you. :)

[Mairead]

30. He supports the School of the Americas -- that's not liberal at all

Especially since, as an ex-general, he knows damned well what they teach there and the uses to which the instruction is put.

[Toucano]

33. Where did he say he supports the school of the americas? n/t

[Mairead]

34. Search for it -- it was just posted here within the past week

[KittyWampus]

31. He Has Talked About Cutting The Pentagon Budget

and without doing this we cannot change the fundamental structure of our Economy, the focus of our Scoeity or the direction of our Foreiegn Polilcy.

Republican like weapons systems and Democrats like people. - Wesley Clark, the only candidate(except perhaps Kerry) who can actually change the Pentagon & MIC.

[Toucano]

32. Define "True". Define "Liberal"

Do labels help us understand issues? I am on the verge of rejecting all lables because of their fluid and subjective nature.


For what it's worth, these people put him in the liberal box.
http://www.issues2002.org/Wesley_Clark.htm