Who can challenge Cheney on Energy meeting records?

[Dookus]

I don't want to get into the whole issue of Dean sealing his records. It's been discussed ad infinitum, and it seems nobody will ever change their minds on whether or not it was proper for him to do so.

But... I have raised this question a few times in those discussions and haven't gotten an answer.

If Dean is the nominee, will he be able to credibly attack Cheney for hiding his energy meeting records? What about the rest of the administration's penchant for secrecy - will Dean be able to use that as a weapon against the administration?

My feeling is no, he will not be able to do so credibly. And to me, that's very unfortunate, because it's one of the major faults I see with the current administration.

If you disagree, please tell me HOW Dean will have credibility on this issue - if he raises it, how will Rove respond? Will he be able to make a distinction between himself and Cheney on this issue? Will the voters buy it? Thanks!

[Nite Owl]

1. Well, I'm a Clark supporter but

I don't see a big problem with Dean's records as Governor being sealed in regard to Bush*. Weren't his records as Gov of Texas sealed in 2000? And now I think they are now at his daddy's library and you would have to go through hoops to get to stuff. This administration is more secretive then Nixon, it's the pot calling the kettle black, people in glass houses etc.

[Dookus]

2. Yes, Bush has sealed his gubernatorial records...

my question though, is can Dean raise that as an issue?

And your last sentence seems to indicate the opposite of what you're saying. If Dean raises the issue, won't he be seen as living in a glass house, or calling the kettle black?

[Cuban_Liberal]

3. I don't see this as the huge issue you do, Dookus.

This would be a 'second-tier issue', IMO, and one should never depend on second-tier issues in the GE. On the first-tier issues--- the economy, the war, education, etc.--- I believe that ALL of our candidates can and will be abel to credibly challenge Bush.

[Dookus]

6. Again, that dodges the question....

whether you rate the issue as first tier or second tier isn't really relevant. The question is, WILL Dean be able to challenge the Bush administration on this issue, and do so credibly?

[Maddy McCall]

8. No, he won't. and he won't be able to challenge him on his record on

civil rights, military service, and many other issues that are IMPORTANT to voters.

[Cuban_Liberal]

9. I wasn't dodging it, Dookus.

I don't see it as a major issue, i.e., it's #24 on ths list of things that need to be talked about in the GE campaign. If neccessary, yes, I believe he can challenge him credibly; the two actions are only superficially similar.

[Dookus]

12. Then please tell me

HOW he will credibly do so?

Dean: Mr. President, release your administration's records on Cheney's energy meetings.

Bush: Release YOUR records... neener-neener.

[Cuban_Liberal]

13. If it comes down to this as an 'issue'...

... we're already in DEEP, deep trouble, Dookus.

:shrug:

[Dookus]

15. Really?

I disagree. I think the Bush administration's secrecy is a big issue.

But you're dodging the question again.

I suppose I will never get a real answer. I've asked the question at least a dozen times in various threads, and all I've gotten is sidesteps and dodges.

[Cuban_Liberal]

16. Maybe because a lot of us don't see it as a big issue, Dookus.

You'll grant me that as a possibility, at least, won't you?

[Dookus]

17. Whether the issue is big or small

is irrelevant to this discussion. If you think it's unimportant, then ignore the thread.

*I* think it's important, as do many others. Open, transparent government is a big issue for me.

I suspect that if Dean had NOT sealed his records, many of his supporters here would be all over Cheney for hiding his records.

[Maddy McCall]

7. No, this IS INDEED a huge issue...sanitized records and sealed records

prohibit voters to know the candidate's TRUE record--you can't know if he was consistent if you can't look at records and correspondence throughout the administration.

I'm a historian, and in basic methodology class I was taught by a well renown historian/author that sanitizing and sealing records negates any ability to really know who the person was.

[Cuban_Liberal]

11. How will we know about ANY of the candidates, then?

None of them have opened their records up for examination, with the exception of General Clark, and even his are only open in a limited fashion.

[EXE619K]

4. Answer: Kucinich

But, why do I get the feeling that's not the answer you were hoping for?

How unfortunate that Gov. Dean's records are not protected by the DOD and the clause of National Security.

[Dookus]

5. I think Kucinich is a fine answer.

What I'm trying to get is an explanation for how Dean can credibly do it.

[EXE619K]

10. You're right!

I think ALL candidates should have ALL of their records released.

Everything!

Many records from this current administration is "hidden" in the name of "National Security".

I think ALL candidates records, regardless of the threats to personal privacy or in the interest of National Security, should be disclosed.

You're right!

[Dookus]

14. well then we disagree...

I have stated repeatedly that all personal privacy information should be redacted.

I would also not urge the release of information that is protected for national security reasons.

But instead of this sparring, I'll state that I THINK you're saying Clark's release of his records is unsatisfying to you.

If that's the case, it still dodges the question. How can Howard Dean credibly challenge Bush on keeping administration records sealed?

[EXE619K]

18. Hardly dodging....not at all!

Whatever reasons this current administration "hides" from the general public will be impossible to disclose. Do you really think that Bush/Cheney administration will disclose this information? Without hard evidence that their EP had a bias or intent to mislead the public into favoring the side of the administration, even a congressional investigation would be hard to make the WH open-up for full disclosure.

That's the beauty of the clause "in the interest of National Security" placed upon damning information(if damning).

No matter what candidate X does, there's no way in hell you can have full disclosure from the current White House.

on edit: who says I'm not a poor spelling bee.

[Dookus]

19. we're not talking about full disclosure

We're talking about Dick Cheney's energy meetings. There is already a lawsuit in progress to force him to release the records.

Will Dean be able to take a credible stand against Cheney on this particular issue?

And yes, it is another dodge.

[EXE619K]

20. How is this a dodge from your question?

If full disclosure is the pre-requisite for credibility in regards to release of information, you bet Gov. Dean has merit to challenge the administration for partial disclosure.

[gulliver]

21. Not Dean.

The pubbies will muddy the waters using Dean's Vermont "energy meetings". http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/12/28/elec04.prez.dean.energy.ap/ . Dean is clean, apparently, and Cheney's "meetings" were obviously dirty, but the subtlety will be lost in the general election. Good and bad are equal when no one believes anyone.

The energy meeting "secrecy" red herring will also be used to counter Democratic assertions about the Bushies' "secrecy." The Bush administration is secret enough to be called "clandestine," but that message won't sail because of the red herring.

Then with Dean we also lose the AWOL issue, the "prancing around in a flight suit" issue, and national security.

Kerry would be better than Dean, and I liked Kerry early on (like so many others when he was the front-runner). Then Kerry showed me that he can't think on his feet very well, and I switched to Edwards. Then Clark joined the race. He's the one.

[EXE619K]

24. General Clark:

If the only thing that impresses you about a person is how many Bronze Stars and Campaign ribbons that the individual has, I guess Clark is your man.

And might I note that, since Mr. Bush went AWOL, the GOP cabal cannot raise an issue in regards to a candidate's "patriotism".

[TLM]

22. It is very simple....

Dean's records have been opened... they are being reviewed by a judge.


Cheney's records have not.




Most of Dean's records are already open to the public.

None of cheney's records are open to the public.



When you set aside the hatered for Howard Dean that some Clark and Kerry folks seem to feel here on DU, it is very clear why Dean is still in a position to address these issues with Bush.

[Dookus]

25. Actually, it's not at all clear to me

Despite your repeated assertions that it SHOULD be.

We have a governor who thinks it's OK to seal his public records.

We have a vice-president who thinks it's OK to seal ihs public records.

Why does one get a pass, but not the other?

[Dookus]

26. also...

WHY are these records in the hands of a judge?

Because of a LAWSUIT! Dean didn't hand all his records to a judge and say "here, you decide". He sealed them. Got sued. A judge will decide.

It's like saying Michael Jackson has decided to let a judge decide what to do about the allegations against him.

[AP]

23. Root of that issue: who can take him on for whoring for corporations?

Edwards. The guy who was ALWAYS taken on corporations.