If Dennis Kucinich had Hired Joe Trippi....

[rucky]

Would he have been the Howard Dean of this race, instead of - er - Howard Dean?

Not to take anything away from Dean and what he has done. The purpose of this post is to wind the clock back about a year, examine the two fringe campaigns, and try to find out why one took off when the other didn't.

They were both running grassroots. They're both innovative & creative visionaries. They're both short. They're both inspiring speakers. They target the youth. Both speaking out about Bush & Iraq.

There's many things that were different about them back then, of course. Kucinich is an unabashed liberal. Dean made himself more mutable, and harder to pin down - the mystery, and inability of the press to label him seems to have worked to his favor in gaining the wide support that he has rightfully earned. It also has been part of what's put him under such heavy criticism by the press and the public.

But the main factor that catapulted Dean & left Kucinich at the fringe was the internet buzz that Joe Trippi created.

Could the Trippi model have worked for a candidate like Kucinich?
So what am I missing here?

[AP]

1. Trippi needs someone more maleable, willing to change who they are for

votes.

[MercutioATC]

47. Hehehe...you never stop...

Trippi is a great campaign manager, but I think he DOES need a candidate with certain qualities to be really effective. Kucinich's positions on some iddues are seen as extreme to a lot of people and I think Trippi would have had trouble compensating for that.

...you can be whomever you want to be in politics...doesn't mean people are going to vote for you. If your message isn't appealing, it doesn't matter how true to it you are.

[Padraig18]

2. No.

It's not DENNIS that is causing him to poll at the bottom, it's Dennis' IDEAS.

[JI7]

3. which ideas ?

?

[Padraig18]

4. I'm not going to play that game.

Dennis is far, FAR removed from the 'mainstream' of politcal thought in this country; he is a fringe-left candidate.

[JI7]

5. not a game

i was wondering which ideas of his you viewed as out of the mainstream and as a result has him low in the polls.

[Padraig18]

7. Ok, one answer:

Department of Peace. I can see my neighors--- Republican and democrats alike--- picking themselves up off the floor (having fallen down laughing) and RUNNING to the polls to vote for Bush!

[rucky]

9. Dept of Homeland Security is not silly?

given the choice, which department would you rather have?

raising the exaggeration level to orange.

mainstream acceptance of a person lends heavier credibility to his ideas. maybe it's important not to offer any out-of-the-box ideas until you get that cred? criticism alone can catapult you to that level, why rock the boat.

Did you even know about the Dept of Peace a year ago?

Do you know about the 40-some House co-sponsors of the proposal?

[Padraig18]

12. Did I say that?

No.

[rucky]

19. I'm not trying to play "gotcha"

just playing "what if" ... that's all.

[MuseRider]

44. Perhaps it is all in the way it is presented.

My demographic is pretty much solidly rural and I have brought it up to a lot of farmer types who would have laughed their asses off had I not presented it in the manner that DK presents it. I respond to you because from all the previous posts I gather your demographic is similar. All in all, they have responded quite favorably.

[Eloriel]

62. No he's not --

he's a liberal. A very strong liberal. Not on the "fringe," but rather in the mainstream of liberal thought.

And frankly, I rather resent you referring to him that way, even tho I am not a supporter myself. It is VERY insulting to those who do support him and to others, like myself, whose "ideal politics" are fairly clost to his.

I think you owe Kucinich supporters an apology.

[rucky]

6. So it was the labels as well?

on the surface, there wasn't much difference in the labels thrown between the two a year ago. We all know the differences now. If you just look at Iraq... is that a fringe view? not exactly fringe, but not exactly mainstream, either. It was Dean's courage to speak out against a popular view that got him that attention.

dig deeper.

[morgan2]

31. the only reason dennis is considered fringe

is because thats how the media portrays him. Many of Clark's ideas are taken right off DK's website, but with different names. Clark had his own idea for a Department of Peace but had some other name for it, Depart of International something or other. All the coverage on Kucinich focuses on a few quirky hippies that like him, so thats how people think of Dennis. Look at Crossfire, Tucker Carlson made jokes about Kucinich for weeks about him being a pot smoking hippie. The so called advocate of the left, Paul Begala doesn't even question it he just laughs.

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AnAmerican]

57. okey dokey

:eyes:

[JohnKleeb]

67. If hes fringe dude then I need to get the hell out of here

because I am way to his left. Yes, I think if Dennis had a Trippi like person it would have helped.

[cyclezealot]

11. That argument is bogus.

Recent polls show the nation's citizenry want universal health care, a weary of corporate crime(if only a Democrat would stop letting them get away with it),and blame trade agreements for our job losses.
Social issues Dean and Kucinich are pretty much in agreement.Same with Iraq, Kucinich just a little more consistant.
The reason for Kucinich's lower polls, politicans were commited to Dean by his earlier start and Kucinich's record about corporate corruption is so clear, business' knows her is uncorruptable.Not a remdey go campaign funds. Dean does get some big money, don't be fooled by that.
Big businsess oriented newspapers give him no time.. Kucinich's ralllies are much too enthusiatic to think his message is a turn off.Even Democrats who are not voting for him often end up hooting and hollering with glee.

[Padraig18]

13. It's not 'bogus'

Dennis Kucinich is dead last because he is a fringe-left candidate, period.

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cuban_Liberal]

28. At best, he's 8th out of 8.

Kucinich is polling dead last, and the polls are essentially right. The only time DK will see the inside of the Oval Office will be when whoever's POTUS invites him to see it.

As for the suggestion that someone not post in a thread, that is a personal decision on the poster's part, and to tell someone to 'butt out' is incredibly rude.

[tinanator]

29. lol

Did I say "butt out"? No, I didnt. What I said was those posts spoke volumes, but nothing that matched what was written. How about a little truth here? 8th out of 8? Dont you wish.

[Cuban_Liberal]

33. I'll wager money on it.

He is completely out of touch with the Democratic electorate, because he is so far to the left.

Further, you wrote this: "cant you find some truthful things to post? If he is such a nothing candidate, why are you forcing your expertise on every thread?..."

That is clearly a 'butt out', as well as suggesting that thge poster is untruthful.

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cuban_Liberal]

37. It's called 'reality'.

Dennis will finish 8th out of 8, assuming there are 8 left by the time the convention rolls around.

Nice ethnic jab, btw. very 'progressive'. I'm also 1/2 Mexican--- want to add 'wetback' to it?:eyes:

[tinanator]

38. your agenda is rather transparent

and it bears no relationship to reality. In my reality, a "cuban liberal" wouldnt expend much energy on falsehoods. How do you feel about Castro?

[Cuban_Liberal]

39. What is my 'agenda'?

And what do my feelings on Castro have to do with the price of beans?

[tinanator]

40. spreading manure about the American electorate and Kucinich's chances

If you call yourself a Cuban liberal, you shouldnt have a problem discussing the NUMBER ONE Cuban political topic. Something to hide?

[Cuban_Liberal]

42. Start a thread in he appropriate forum and I will.

It's not 'manure'--- it's true.

[tinanator]

54. so Im a racist?

I was under the impression "Cuban" was a nationality, not an ethnicity. Kinda thought Cuba was a diverse population. Tried not to assume anything about you and naturally was curious about your "liberal" opinion of Castro. Any other inference was simply based on your gambling offer and low opinion of Kucinich's chances and American voters. I don't owe you an apology, but I think you do me.

[Padraig18]

59. Oh, come ON!

The "sugar plantation" reference wasn't an ethnic smear? :wtf: Your posts got deleted for good reason, so don't berate HIM with it.

[tinanator]

60. no it certainly wasnt

it was a classist swipe. Get a grip.
-and I imagine that "good reason" was SOME little tattle tale baby hitting alert. Kinda wish I wasnt above that, cuz you have it comin 1/2 the time.

[Cuban_Liberal]

61. The only person responsible for a deleted post is the poster.

You make the post, you live with the consequences.

Good night.

[tinanator]

63. apology accepted!

was i supposed to be harmed somehow?

[Cuban_Liberal]

68. I didn't apologize. n/t

[tinanator]

69. viva la revolucion

neither did I.

[cryofan]

14. Oh, puh-leeze!

Dennis's ideas are more in line with a larger segment of American people (though not necessarily people who vote) than any other candidate. Dennis is not the frontrunner because human beings are evolved from social, hierarchy-centered pack animals, and Dennis does not come off as an alpha male. If we were more rational and logical and analytical, Dennis would win this race.

Also, if Dennis were a different person, one more willing to bend and adapt himself to the realities of electoral presidential politics, he would be doing better.

[Padraig18]

16. Oh, puh-leeze!

Dennis is completely out of touch with what ordinary Americans think and believe. He's one step away from being a full-blown Socialist, which is NOT what most Americans are or want as POTUS. Dennis would lead our party to an electoral humiliation of unprecedented proportions.

[cosmicdot]

20. yet, according to this poll ...

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040115/ap_on_el_pr/campaign_poll_1

Dean was seen as further from the average Americans' political views than President Bush, according to the poll by the Pew Research Center for the People & the Press. But some other leading Democratic candidates were closer to the average voter's views than Bush.

snip...

Other candidates like Clark, John Kerry, Dick Gephardt, John Edwards and Joe Lieberman were relatively close to the average voter in a general election, while Bush was seen as more conservative.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=130328


which only shows how much baloney (mildly stated), and disinformation, is out there ... and, too often here ...

we continue to let the media and other propaganda sources direct us, shape us, prop us up, whatver ... especially if it favors the candidate we individually support

we can't have peace ... God forbid ... the mainstream American doesn't want that ... says whom?

want to try another out of the mainstream 'issue'?



I think things are more akin to what Gore Vidal relates

Gore Vidal: The war against lies

http://argument.independent.co.uk/commentators/story.jsp?story=482276

[Padraig18]

23. Non-responive.

All that's very inbteresting, but doesn't address what I wrote.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

21. Keep telling yourself that!

It would be funny, except the consequences are so serious. I can't wait for Dean fans to start making fun of the way Christians play - yeah, that will help us win 270.

[Padraig18]

25. Huh?

What? :shrug:?

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

35. wrong thread

sorry :eyes:

[sandnsea]

48. No, it's the way he presents them

He ran as a dreamy idealist. That's what makes people not even listen to him. Had he ran as a tough realist, cutting straight through to the fact that the corporatist mentality is literally killing us, he'd have done much better. It is Dennis that is causing him to poll at the bottom and Joe Trippi wouldn't have been able to convince him to change.

[mopinko]

8. bashing not necessary here,

let's answer this good question, here.
i am a dean supporter, in large part because of the fact that when howard gets to washington, he will owe it to ME, and lot's of other tiny donors like me. but also because he hit my key issues as gov. i think that no government has any business doing anything until the next generation (aka the future) is taken care of. if we could eliminate violence against children nationwide, we would be living in a different country in a generation.
now, dennis. i like dennis, and i don't really even think that it is his appearance or whatever that is keeping him down. i think he has stepped on the third rail- single payer health care. he has phrased it as something that is "correct" instead of explaining the impact it would have on the economy, freeing people stuck at jobs by their pre-existing conditions, and holding down small businesses. i distinctly remember al gore giving a speech about this and going- yea, i never thought of it that way. dennis's response in the debate about jobs lost in iowa was stupid. it re-enforced the image as a guy out of touch with the real world.
i do think you are right that he is just the kinda guy who would benefit from a campaign like howard's. but it would not make him howard.

[rucky]

17. Yes...and to add

Howard thinks out loud. And when he's not quoted out of context, it's easy to follow his thinking - he always explains himself (in a good way).

For me with Kucinich, I have to catch up to him a bit - his brain is always one step ahead of me. But when people take the time to understand him, there's always a big "wow" factor waiting for them. trouble is, people don't take that time & the words & ideas just get tossed out. It took me awhile to take to him, but now I can say he IS truly remarkable.

[tinanator]

30. He is such an intelligent and honest man

he doesnt need a handler or strategist. He knows what he is doing, and I have no doubt he has things up his sleeve which will put him right where I want him.

[Cheesehead]

45. Perfectly said!

Dennis is the only candidate with a cogent, fully developed and clear position on every issue that he communicates consistently. No politics, just a clear position on the issue that he sticks to without waffling.

[TheWebHead]

10. kucinich would be economically dangerous

and wouldn't have stood a chance no matter who was the brains behind his campaign. The stock market would sell off substantially even if he were the Democratic nominee on the worry of a possible election, let alone the total meltdown if he made it into office.

[Paulie]

15. Doubtful

I spoke with my Benefits manager at work, and mentioned the 7% tax on healthcare in the Kucinich "Medicare for All" plan. My company would end up saving 10's of millions of dollars, probably as much as they saved laying off 1000 people.

Have you actually READ Dennis' proposals, or just what others have said about them? Seriously, they are good reasonable plans.

[tinanator]

18. what a disgusting thought

If it was all about money, Kucinich wouldnt be the candidate he is. He is nothing like Jerry Brown.

[LWolf]

24. He wouldn't have hired Trippi.

That would be out of character. Dennis is, if nothing else, the embodiment of what he says. He says what he believes, he lives and does what he says. He is not going to "spin" himself or his platform as someone/something different from who he is. He would have frustrated the hell out of Trippi. I don't think Trippi would have worked for Dennis. I don't think Dennis would have hired him, anyway.

[OhioStateProgressive]

26. Dennis already had his own "Trippi" years ago

and it ran into problems...Dennis has seemed to not ever go that route again

[NashVegas]

27. I Don't Think So

Besides the fact he's so much further to the left than Dean, Kucinich is campaigning as what I'd call a "Finite" player in that he presents himself theatrically. When he goes to speak before us in debates and TV coverage, his "candidate" mask is firmly in place. Dean is more of an "Infinite" player; he is not theatric, but dramatic. His mask is not that of "candidate," his mask is "Howard Dean," which is to say, largely, he is unmasked. This allows others more ability to project the image we choose upon him. As the internet is an infinite gameboard like nothing ever seen, it's natural that Kucinich would find it a less responsive tool for his presentation than Dean has from the start.

When the primaries are over and Dean needs to reach out (if he wins the nomination) across the board, I expect him to utilize more "Finite" tactics.

[Cuban_Liberal]

32. It would not have helped.

Dennis is far to left to have a serious chance at winning 50.1% of the vote. he's a nice guy, decent, honest and obviously passionate, but he's not the democratic candidate America will vote for.

[tinanator]

34. wrong

but dont expect me to substantiate my position any more than you do (can?) yours. Speak for yourself, I think much more highly of all Americans than you seem to.

[Cuban_Liberal]

41. I think very highly of Americans.

That's why I believe they would never be bone-headed enough to nominate a candidate like Dennic Kucinich for President, because it would assure an electoral defeat of unprecedented proprtions for the Democratic Party.

[arewethereyet]

43. Trippi could not have helped him nor anyone else

his message has limited appeal and big holes.

He's done better than I thought he would.

[LiberalBushFan]

49. There would be some differences

Yes, Kucinich's numbers would be way up. But not nearly as much as Dean's were because he's really not the same type of speaker. However, Kucinich also would not have had the drop that Dean is having now, because his words are consistent and highly credible.

[diamondsoul]

50. Here's what I'd like to know-

Since I already know no way in hell would Dennis have hired Joe Trippi with his history of less than ethical behavior-

If Kucinich is such the loser candidate and has no chance, why are any of the other candidates supporters so inclined to bash Kucinich supporters over the head with so much brutality and venom about it? I mean seriously, the nastiness directed towards us by some on these boards is just sickening and everyone thinks it's just dandy. Worse it gets directed at Dennis with this BS of calling him "Denny" purely for insult factor, riducling him and any of us across threads all over the place with no provocation whatsoever- Or IS THERE something for you to worry about after all?!

FEH!

[NashVegas]

52. Ridiculing Dennis?

Seeing as though you're the one who's making the claim, and you have a star, would you be so good as to pull out examples? The fact no one expects Kucinich to do that well is why he's gotten a (mostly) free ride on this forum, IMO.

I did a search of GD2004 on the word "Denny" and it came up with three posts for the last 7 days and 10 hits on an archive search. Just for comparison, an archive GD2004 search on "kool-aid" turns up 52 hits.

While I'd not be surprised to see some Kucinich bashing, I'd bet a 25 dollar donation to DU that the majority of what's there came well after the attacks on other candidates, that were perpetrated by people with pictures of Jello Biafra wearing a Kucinich shirt in their sigs. Whether those posters were genuine Kucinich supporters or someone trying to attack Dean and lay it at someone else's door is up for grabs.

[diamondsoul]

53. Were any the "kool-aid" hits

from me? I'm not for a minute suggesting Kucinich is the only one to get slammed. Never did.

Attacks on other candidates- well I'll grant I'm not perfect, but I try to talk about issues without attacking. I can be provoked and I'm getting sick of hearing that my candidate is "fringe" which in turn means that so am I- well so what if I'm "fringe"? What my opinions and my vote shouldn't count for anything?

I'm sure it's obvious I'm provoked right now, and I didn't point any fingers or call anyone out, so please have the same courtesy for me. Just so you know, I won't be back to respond to anything for a few days at least. Honestly, I don't like the way I feel right now, and I don't like the fact that I really want to return some of the nastiness I've seen, so I'm going to take a break. (I mention this because I'm aware of my own shortcomings, and I don't want people thinking I'm pulling a swan-song or running scared, either one.)

To tell you the truth, I'm sick and tired of being told I don't matter. I'm sick of being called a fringe leftist by extenstion since I agree with Kucinich on very nearly everything. I'm sick of being disenfranchised and the tension and treatment I and other Kucinich supporters have had just makes me want to cry. It shows me why Nader was right. It shows me why this party is or may as well be dead to me, and that is possibly the saddest note of all.

[NashVegas]

55. I've No Idea

I didn't care to spend the time chasing them down.

I'm not trying to call you out, personally. You asked a question. I tried to supply you with information that might help put things in perspective.

I'm sick of being called a fringe leftist by extenstion since I agree with Kucinich on very nearly everything.

I'll tell you a secret: I do to. So do many supporters of Howard Dean, John Edwards, and many other candidates. Some of us just happen to also think that our ideal isn't necessarily going to work for everyone else. That's why the US has a system based on compromise. I don't think Kucinich could work as a president because he's so far left he'd be forced to compromise on everything. Being forced to do that too much compromises the strength of the office, in the end.

I'm sick of being disenfranchised and the tension and treatment I and other Kucinich supporters have had just makes me want to cry.

Don't let the bastards grind you down. Even though I disagree with you on candidates, I believe Kucinich has a very important message that needs to be heard.

[diamondsoul]

65. Ok, so I didn't take that break yet...

LOL No I got PMed about something and popped in to see this thread had been bumped. Thanks for your patience with my outburst.

Honestly I think I just needed to vent some frustration, and a lot of it is tension. I'm both excited and nervous about Iowa right now and the buildup is driving me buggy. When I see people posting flamebait crap after a while it does get to me- and I consider the flamebait crap to be stuff like "he's ugly and looks matter", "he's a nutcase and he'd be dangerous as President" things like that. Sooo, I'm not reading much in this forum for now, at least until I have control of my temper.

I can deal with disagreement about which candidate is best or even will win. I can't deal with stupidity very well at the moment.*wry grin*

[Valjean]

51. The Joys of Dennis

Dennis is an excellent issue candidate. He speaks his mind and he does it eloquently. He doesn't back away from criticism and that gives him integrity.

I support Dennis mainly because he's the only one who has come out 100% AGAINST NAFTA and WTO. He's the only one who realizes that they are destroying America. He's the only one not afraid to say it for fear of a backlash from corporate America.

I never expected him to win. I hope that someone else catches on and declares NAFTA and WTO as the America destroyers they are.

[Turkw]

56. The media did a real number on Dennis K, I heard more than one talking

head use a "fringe" reference to him. When he spoke up for himself, as he should have, when ABC (I believe) announced that they were going to drop their embedded reporter from his campaign, he got hit again. When he went on The Capitol Report, they had the two hosts, Dennis K, a reporter (representing the media) and a Republican. Four to one, all talking against what DK was saying without listening to him. The Republican couldn't figure out why they had invited him, but was happy to bash along side the media heads. Jeez, then they made it a point to ask about creative visualization. Nice fair reporting, commentary, and discussion in the news.

I like DK, I don't think he will get the nomination (I think Clark will, I'm sure several disagree, but that's OK, that's Democracy!) and I would like to see DK become a Senator! No limitations on terms, more power, better pulpit to advocate from. He would be good for the country in the Senate.

[mandyky]

58. Trippi might have helped Kucinich

but DK's message is a bit to far left to sell to swing voters.

While Dean's DNC winter meeting speech made me a supporter, the pragmatic win against shrub part of me liked Dean's A rating from the NRA, his fiscal conservatism and his way of talking about race.

While I agree with a lot of DK's issues, I am not sure there are enough other voters in the US who are and would get him to the WH.

BY the way, in profiles and interviews Trippi has done, he said he told Dean to be himself and go for broke. I know lately they've readjusted due to "gaffes", but I don't think that is all Trippi. I think Dean has told his people - "Don't let me stick my foot in my mouth anymore".

[Th1onein]

64. Dean is more "Clinton-like" in my view.....

Maybe some would disagree. There is something about Kucinich, though.....some conviction that I feel from him, that seems to me to make him less malleable to the forces that move Dean. Yes, Dean is already conforming, in my opinion, to the forces that, to most, would make him "electable." This is the very reason why those who think that Kucinich is "unelectable" should vote for him in the primary.

I used to be one of those "I would vote for Kucinich, but he is not 'electable' people." I have since realized that, for the first time in a very long time, I have a chance; WE have a chance, to make this country what it should be, with Kucinich as our leader.

I am not going to give up on that vision easily. I will vote for anyone but Bush in the general election, but I will put my effort, and my sweat, and my hope, in getting Kucinich on that ballot, in November.

Kucinich is VERY intelligent. He has shown himself able to stand up to corporate America. That's what we need. This is a man of courage, and of integrity.

Bush has done so much damage, in such a short amount of time, without someone like Kucinich, we just won't make it as a country.

[ThirdWheelLegend]

66. Agreed..

That is not necesarrily a positive for Dean. I see Dean as very Clinton-like. Says alot of what people want to hear while having very right of center policies. Besides his misrepresentations of Kucinich, his record and policies are the main reasons I am not a Dean backer.

TWL

[Freddie Stubbs]

70. Dean comes off a lot better on TV

Perhaps someone like Kucinich would have been able to have been elected in 1904, but not in 2004. The electronic age has made changed things.