Will anti-Dean demos vote for * against Dean in the general election?

[rogerashton]

It's time to ask the question. After ads like the one referenced here, they seem to be making it impossible for themselves to do otherwise.

http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/nation/7538902.htm

By the way, let's look at Mr. Bush's "foreign policy experience."

Reversed the Clinton policy of active opposition to Al-Qaeda 9 months before 9-11.
Of course, we do not know whether continuation of the policy would have prevented the 9-11 attacks. That's one of Rummy's "known unknowns." But it would certainly have made them less probable.

Let vicious, sadistic dictator Charles Taylor of Liberia get away with assisting the 9-11 attacks, instead committing US forces to "take down" Saddam Hussein, who, nasty as he was, had nothing to do with the 9-11 attacks.
These are known knowns.

Diverted US forces from Afghanistan to attack Iraq, with the result that Al Qaeda and the Taliban have recovered and gained power in Afghanistan, power that is a real threat to American citizens in their homes.
Osama bin forgotten?

Abandoned the Clinton policy of engagement with North Korea, a country that really does have WMD's; violated norms of diplomacy by gratuitously insulting that country's ruler (who is *'s own resume twin!), and allowed the threat to American interests and American soldiers to grow worse as military and naval resources were diverted (again) to the attack on Iraq.

Bottom line: EXPERIENCE OF UNBROKEN FAILURE AND INCOMPETENCE IS NOT A QUALIFICATION FOR OFFICE.

[FlashHarry]

1. Wow.

Put on your Nomex underwear, folks. It's about to get a little hot in here...

[Nay]

2. If they do, we are well and truly screwed.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

3. If they do, they were never really Democrats

Democrats are for the people, and go with what the people want. I'm actively supporting whoever is nominated, even if it is my ninth choice. To do otherwise is to be a traitor to your party, imho.

[nhtfopo]

15. So if you don't vote democratic, you're not a democrat?

I've voted for a R in my local elections for years, guess I'm out of the party. He does a really good job, I don't care what party he's in.

[HFishbine]

31. Um, yeah

Pretty much. By definition, yes.

[LeahMira]

22. Bingo!

If they do, they were never really Democrats

Now you get it. They may be registered Democrats because generally they like the direction that the Democratic party takes better than the direction that the Republican party takes (or maybe they are "Green at heart" and just haven't gotten around to changing their registration, or they want to vote in someone's primary), but when they see a candidate that conforms to their wishes more closely than the Democratic candidate does they vote for the candidate of their choice.

It's difficult for some people to vote a party line or to be loyal to a party or to be "really Democrats" in a country where "rugged individualism" is such a value. If it's any consolation, these folks aren't going to let the administration become a dictatorship or an oligarchy either. They are just too independent to let that happen without serious protest and resistance. They are where your revolution will come from.

Now, the Democrats' job is to connect those dots.

[Mairead]

27. I think you might be a little uninformed about how consent is manufactured

'what the people want' is a function of what the people really do want, not merely what they've been told they want. Someone staying home is voting for 'None of the above' in the only legal way open.

[forgethell]

29. That is one way of looking at it.

some people, not me, I actually agree with you here, think that it means that the people are satisfied with the status quo.

I believe both are a dangerous attitde to take. Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that * has created heaven on earth for the great majority of Ameicans. They stay home. the evil Democrats take over and "paradise lost".

On the other hand, assume that someone, call him Dean, is the Democrat nominee. Life in the USA is hell. But the voter doesn't like some of Dean's policies. He stays home. Odds are * stays in office.

If you care, you HAVE to vote. I even took a vacation day once to get my vote in. (long commute).

Merry Christmas, or whatever.

[Mairead]

44. "If you care, you HAVE to vote."

I agree, if you can figure out how. Me, I plan to vote for real change: I'm voting for Dennis Kucinich, check-off or write-in. Nothing less will do.

[tsipple]

4. No

Pundit hyperventilating notwithstanding, this campaign isn't much different than prior campaigns when Gore said nasty, awful things about Bradley, for example.

It'll pass, and then the real contest begins.

[blondeatlast]

12. Egg-zactly.

[xJlM]

5. Probably just stay home and not vote

If the democratic party were to give us a confederate flag candidate, I imagine a lot of hard core democrats would stay home rather than imply support for such nonsense.

[xultar]

6. Amen! n/t

[HuckleB]

8. Wouldn't that imply support for Bush's nonsense?

[Mairead]

25. No, why would it? It would imply repudiation of both forced choices.

Which do you prefer to take, cyanide or strychnine? er, I'll pass, thanks.

[bearfartinthewoods]

10. my brother in law and his wife are firm at this point that they wll not

vote to increase their own taxes.

[HuckleB]

14. Yeah, let's follow Bush's lead and put off payment until we retire.

Who cares about interest, anyway? Who cares about a debt that will make raising taxes on future Americans a necessity, and at a far higher rate than Dean proposes, which is hardly a raise in taxes, as it only eliminates Bush's irresponsible actions.

[otohara]

34. Hope They Don't Mind

when everything goes to shit because there's no money to pay for anything like - schools, roads, trash, environment, etc...

[ima_sinnic]

41. they haven't noticed an increase in their taxes under Bush?

so they saved $300 or whatever it was on their income taxes, big whoop. they haven't noticed an increase in their state and local taxes and their property tax? or the fact that social services are squeezed to the bone and going belly-up?

[blondeatlast]

13. And hewhosnamemustnotbespoken will TRULY win the White House.

You can't be serious.

[Scott Lee]

30. I see the confederate flag fairy tale is still afloat

And some are still buying it. Sad, that.

Now for the facts: Dean never supported the confederate flag (in fact called it "loathesome"), and his support in the south is rising - outpacing Clark.

Thank you for your time.

[Dogmudgeon]

7. Author: Dick Polman

He's the Philadelphia Inquirer's resident Bush worshipper. If Christ Himself were to run for the Presidency on the Democratic Party ticket, Polman would still find enough dirt for two or three columns per week. And it is compounded because the "Inqy" has decided to be the instrument by which the corrupt Democrats in the Street Administration are cast from public service.

Polman's main journalistic "technique" seems to be recycling press releases and pundits' interpretations of press releases.

I take what the man writes with a very very large grain of salt.

--bkl

[AntiCoup2K4]

23. If Christ Himself were running...

...some here would say even He wasn't progressive enough.

[elfin]

9. I do not think so BUT

"Security Moms" and more moderate Repugs definitely will not. Also - his "coattails" will be nearly non-existent IMO.

[blondeatlast]

11. I'm not anti-Dean, just strongly favor another opponent, but

I will vote and campaign for the Democratic candidate.

You have my word.

[Jerseycoa]

32. Mine, too

For the five hundredth time.

[LiberalBushFan]

16. no, but anti-clark dean supporters will

and have admitted so. In fact they threaten not to vote for Clark a lot more often than Clark supporters say they won't vote for Dean.

[Padraig18]

18. I don't agree with the last part of your statement at all.

In fact, I think the opposite is true.

[jonnyblitz]

39. I don't think so.

I have seen waaaay more Clark supporters say they won't vote for Dean .

[mikehiggins]

40. Clark voters will vote democratic regardless

That doesn't mean that we do not expect to lose if Dean is the candidate. I think you may be misunderstanding the posts.

Dean is not electable is NOT the same as saying I won't vote for Dean.

If he is the nominee all of the ABB camp, which is the largest part of the Clark following, will still vote ABB. We just expect to lose if Dean is the nominee.

[mouse7]

17. If you won't support Dem nominee, then rot in Bush Hell

If you refuse to support the Dem nominee after Dubya has been... Dubya, the new Dem Prez should lock you onto the Crawford Pig Farm with Dubya for all eternity. Let you hang with that idiot clearing brush for the rest of your days.

[Auntie Bush]

19. I'll definitely vote for whomever wins the primary

I will attend house parties for Clark...but probably not for Dean. However...that is subject to change. Right now I want Clark to win so badly it is hard to imagine rooting for someone else! However, ask me again AFTER Dean wins (?) the nomination ... maybe I'll be having my own house parties here in VT for Dean because I want anyone but *ush.

[Toucano]

20. Short answer, NO.

"Anti-Dean" Dems will vote for the nominee. Deals will be brokered. We will beat Bush. Everyone who supports another candidate is not anti-Dean, however.

If Dean doesn't get the nomination, will he run outside the party?

That's the question that George Will posed this morning. It is an interesting question, too.

On edit:
Typo, cold fingers!

[LeahMira]

21. Certainly not!!!

Will anti-Dean demos vote for * against Dean in the general election?

They will either hold their noses and vote for Dean or they will vote for a third party candidate or do a write-in.

I understand that many folks consider voting for a third party or doing a write-in to be the same thing as voting for * but, in the minds of those who will do that, it isn't. It's a refusal to go along with what they see as "business as usual."

Maybe Democrats ought to encourage the Constitution party to run Roy Moore to take far right votes away from * Or maybe the Democrats ought to give the far left a reason to vote Democratic.

There will never be a "good time" to launch a third party. I can't think of a time in the past forty years or so when a third party wouldn't have been seen as "a good idea but dangerous thing right now." Can you?

The fact is that most Americans are afraid of giving all the power to any one party. In Republican administrations they have usually given the Republican president a Democratic Congress... and vice versa. I think that's instructive in that it seems the people aren't too happy with either party and hope the parties will work to keep one another in check. IOW, they really don't trust any dern politician, and I'm afraid most politicians have lived right down to their expectations.

That's why some people vote against what they see as "business as usual."

[vi5]

24. No way.......I don't know anyone planning on that.....

I know a ton of people personally and on-line who have major reservations about Dean and how he has run thus far. And who worry about him as our candidate.

But of those people I know none (including myself) who won't vote for and/or campaign vigorously for Dean if he is the nom.

[TexasPatriot]

26. or course not

then again, living here in Texas it wont matter all that much... but that's never stopped me from voting before.

[WilliamPitt]

28. He's got my vote if he wins the nomination

but I've said that a few thousand times already.

[arwalden]

33. Same Here... But I Often Wonder

Why must everything be black-and-white, this-or-that, good-or-evil, for-or-against?

If I'm not FOR Dean, why do the Dean supporters assume that I'm "against" Dean? Why can't I just be FOR someone else?

Just wondering. I'm sure it's been asked before.

-- Allen

[ulysses]

45. you can be.

As if anyone here controls your vote. C'mon, Allen.

[Zomby Woof]

48. he has a point

I have seen plenty of people accused of being anti-Dean just because they say they won't vote for him in the primaries (and I am not talking about people like me who are obvious in their bias, but more mellow and levelheaded types, lol), only because they prefer someone else. So c'mon Uly.

[rogerashton]

35. So happens I'm a Kerry supporter.

I like Clark, too. But I find myself getting angry over the way Dean is being treated, not by supporters of those candidates (so far as I know) but by the anybody-but-Dean money conduits who placed those ads.

Yes, I suppose, most of the people responsible for the ads will endorse and support Dean if he is nominated. And when they are asked how they can support a candidate who, on the basis of their own ad, cannot compete with the unelected George W* Bush for foreign policy experience, they will change the subject. But a large glob of egg will be visible on their faces all the same.

What worries me is that they might not be hypocrites.

On edit: a pretty discouraged Kerry supporter, as it happens, and somewhat up for grabs -- and these ads are leaning me toward Dean, not against him.

[Octafish]

36. I'll vote for Dean over Bush. I hope it doesn't come to that.

The reason? Bush would beat Dean, IMO. How would he do that? Well, that would be telling.

[eileen_d]

37. For the thousandth time, NO.

I would prefer that a different candidate get the nomination. BUT

If Dean gets the nomination I will vote for Dean.
If Dean gets the nomination I will vote for Dean.
If Dean gets the nomination I will vote for Dean.
If Dean gets the nomination I will vote for Dean.
If Dean gets the nomination I will vote for Dean.
If Dean gets the nomination I will vote for Dean.
If Dean gets the nomination I will vote for Dean.
If Dean gets the nomination I will vote for Dean.
If Dean gets the nomination I will vote for Dean.
If Dean gets the nomination I will vote for Dean.
If Dean gets the nomination I will vote for Dean.
If Dean gets the nomination I will vote for Dean.
If Dean gets the nomination I will vote for Dean.
If Dean gets the nomination I will vote for Dean.
If Dean gets the nomination I will vote for Dean.
If Dean gets the nomination I will vote for Dean.
If Dean gets the nomination I will vote for Dean.
If Dean gets the nomination I will vote for Dean.
If Dean gets the nomination I will vote for Dean.
If Dean gets the nomination I will vote for Dean.

[QC]

38. The Daily Loyalty Oath is getting old, isn't it?

[Zomby Woof]

50. well, you do know

All of us anti-Dean posters are just closet Rove plants. :eyes:

[5thGenDemocrat]

42. No I will not vote for Bush under any circumstance

Which is a different thing than saying I'll necessarily vote for Dean.
John
Unless Michigan is running within a "too-close-to-call" spread next November, I'll keep my options open. Then I wouldn't have any choice -- I'd have to vote for Dean.

[JohnKleeb]

43. Do you want me to write it out for you and sign it

because I am sick of saying yes.

[ClarkGraham2004]

46. Absolutely not

If Howard Dean wins the nomintion, I will certainly vote for him. But I have confidence that it will be General Wesley Clark who I will be pulling the lever for in 2004.



Clark-Graham 2004

[ulysses]

47. some will, bet the bank.

They just won't tell you so here.

[Zomby Woof]

49. I like your sig line

She did endorse DK btw. ;-)

[rogerashton]

51. One more time:

I am talking about the people who placed the ad. Not about people who post here -- unless they happen to be the same, which I doubt.

What I am saying is -- if you believe the stuff in that ad -- which you shouldn't, for reasons I wrote in the post that started this thread, -- then how can you not vote for W*??

And if you helped to pay for the ad and you don't believe what it says -- shame on you. You certainly don't deserve to be a Democrat.

[arewethereyet]

52. a few will but not many

more will simply NOT vote and a few will vote for third party folks.

Most will suck it up and pull the "D" lever as they always do as they are probably seldom happy with the nominee.

Its the NOT VOTE numbers that concern me. This could be significant.

[TexasSissy]

53. As a Clark supporter, if someone besides Clark wins the nomination,

I will have to see who it is, and who all is running, and make my decision at that time. I'll vote for whoever I think will make the best President. Would I vote for someone that I think would make a bad President, but not as bad as the other choices? I don't know.

It's way too early to name second choices, for me. Although if it were Kerry, I can say that I'd probably vote for him (begrudgingly). I would have to think long and hard about the others.

[xrepub]

54. Anyone but bush

I do not currently support Dean. I am quite confident that any of the Democratic candidates would be a great improvement over the shrub. I find it hard to imagine any Democrat feeling differently.

The most important priority in America now should be removing bush.

I will vote for Clark in the primary, but I will strongly support any of the other dems. I think that any other action I could take would be unpatriotic.