See how shallow Kerry's support was?

[BurtWorm]

It's all over this forum, the evidence of that. Is this why he lost? (If I can use that term without quotation marks.)

PS: This is actually a serious question. It is kind of shocking for me (a Dean guy) to see how rapidly sympathy for Kerry disintegrated today.

[Vickers]

1. Well, not many folks expected him to bend over and spread the ham

so quickly. I certainly didn't.

[Walt Starr]

4. Um, it was mathematically impossible to win

What else could he have done except rip the country apart?

If he won via lawsuits, he would be less legitimate than * was in term 1!

[maveric]

22. Is your assertion considering the no paper trail votes?

And the glitches in the systems?
BBV's fucked us and fucked us good.

[Deja Q]

40. Exactly. Fair elections are as extinct as the Dodo.

x(

[Vickers]

30. Walt, I'm not saying my anger is necessarily logical

My whole day has been one red flash after another.

[BurtWorm]

6. How deep was your support for him a couple of days ago?

Did you support him in the primaries? Just to be clear, these are exploratory questions, not insinuating ones, I hope you know.

[Carni]

20. I did vote for him in the primaries

I understand what your point is... but I still maintain that a couple of days wouldn't have been the end of the world.

The only reason Ohio went to Bush is because the bush campaign said they took Ohio--it's like Florida all over again and we have no real way of knowing how many of those provisional ballots there really were...three or four counties hadn't even reported those numbers yet.

[Vickers]

32. I supported Dean, but gladly shifted my support to Kerry

after the primaries. He is a TRUE veteran (I am a veteran, too), and he has served his country in several ways.

I did freeway blogging (south Florida), local voter registration, and gave 6 older folks in my neighborhood a ride to the polling station.

So I would consider my support pretty strong.

[JohnKleeb]

2. I dont know man

I just cant blame Kerry for this, Ive been reading that "morality" is why Bush had a nice turnout, homophobic freakazoids who vote against their own interests because gasp that John Kerry cares not only about me the straight middle american but the gay american as well. I cant blame Kerry for ignorance by so many idiots.

[mzmolly]

49. Exactly. It's not as if the polls showed Kerry leading by 20% and

suddenly Bush won. We knew this was an uphill battle, and we lost.

[Stuckinthebush]

3. Aw, come on Burt

It is just saddness coming out in the guise of anger and hurt. Tomorrow will be another day.

[BurtWorm]

8. We'll see.

[TimeToGo]

5. No

People are just very upset and they are venting.

[Dawgs]

7. If you think that then you totally missed it...

This election was about getting rid of the fuck up in office, George Bush. Kerry was a much better option than Bush. The fact that people didn't see this is what's so amazing.

[RinaJ]

9. Part of is that people had gotten really high expectations over the past

week. And honestly, sometimes it's just easier to have a target for your anger, in order to put off having to face the stark reality of the situation, which is four more years of Bush, and the fact that slightly over half the country thought he was the better option.

He wasn't going to win Ohio with the paper ballots that could be proven. There was no way he was going to win a lawsuit based on the Diebold machines, that needed to be won prior to it. The only thing he could probably show was that the machines were flawed, which is already widely known, but it would be very unlikely that he could prove that they were set to exclude votes from him.

[sangh0]

10. FYI, many of those who seem eager to blame Kerry

are the same ones who were eager to attack him before the Iowa caucuses. They are the same ones who have attacked every Dem, with one or two exceptions.

And a couple of them have "outed" themselves as stealth disruptors and have been banned, and some of those who are now quick to blame Kerry are wondering why these self-confessed disruptors were banned.

[sangh0]

12. Here's one

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1308705

[venus]

16. Right on sangho. Tell it. What mean-spirited Kerry "supporters" we

have here. Bet we'll be hearing about ourselves on the network news. How Dems have stabbed their candidate in the back and deserted him. Some of us should be totally ashamed.

[LittleClarkie]

55. I'm sitting here in my Kerry Real Deal t-shirt

just about to go to the Freeper bar (if I can ever get my poker face on, that is) and show them that I still support my candidate.

I'll be paying attention to him from now on. I still have his back.

[Julien Sorel]

11. I didn't know DU was the entire world of Democrats.

Excuse me now, while I go out and find a razor blade.

[Jack_DeLeon]

13. You are right.

Kerry = a typical politican, and apparently not even a great one at that.

Dean = something fresh, something different.

Hell even Wes Clark would have been a better choice than Kerry.

14. Perhaps its because he QUIT?

losing can be done with honor

Where is the honor in quitting?

[solarspa]

15. those were just ringers--don't worry nt

[Carni]

17. My only beef with Kerry

Is that he didn't wait it out for a couple of days to see where they stashed all the ballots they trashed (or more likely to find out how they hacked the Evoting machines)

Conceding immediately given the history of bush in 2000 was stupid--

If in two days it turned out there wasn't anything amiss....then so be it! Concede at that juncture, but not today before everything is even counted in Ohio and Florida.

I was also very annoyed about the healing and uniting crap in JFK's concession speech--

I like Kerry and think he is a decent man (and I have been most supportive BTW) but I totally disagree with healing and uniting and all that garbage.

In addition Kerry ran a campaign that was very blunt in it's criticism towards Bush/ so it looks rather hypocritical to tell his voters to chill out and unite with the bushbots.

[gottaB]

18. Shallow support in the Fighting and Acrimony Forum?

Go figure.

My support for Kerry is not shallow. I haven't weighed in for a number of reasons: still waiting for more information about what really happened, shell shock, not wanting to hurt anybody's feelings.

Since you're being sincere, I will share my observation that sympathy for many of our fellow Democrats is in short supply today. Under the circumstances, I'd rather see people dump on our nominee than scapegoat others. It's a burden he can and should bear. In time we'll see whether he is still worthy of being a symbol of our aspirations and positive vibes. I think he is, but I don't want to argue the point with those who are lashing out in their grief.

[Misunderestimator]

19. I supported him completely... I went to his rallies, I donated a LOT of

money to his campaign, I volunteered my time for him, I've practically lived my life about getting him elected since he was nominated.

But to see him immediately give up, when we all know what corruption there is out there... what should we do, just lay back and take it? Be good little democrats again? :wtf: No way... I will never give anyone a free pass. He should have waited long enough that the voting issues would have time to be exposed in the press. Now, because he conceded so quickly, there's no recourse.

Don't call ME shallow... I've devoted a hell of a lot of time, energy, money and love to his campaign. I only began to criticize him when he conceded. I still think he's a good man, but it doesn't stop me from disagreeing with what he has done.

[sangh0]

23. One decision you don't like, and that "complete" support disappears

.

[Misunderestimator]

28. Please re-read my post... I still support him

I did not support him conceding before every vote was counted. They said last night that they would keep their word. They broke it. Please demonstrate how they kept their word. If you don't respond to my question directly, please don't bother responding at all.

[sangh0]

31. IMO, calling Kerry a "liar" is an odd way to support him

which you say you still do.

I'm not going to argue about if he should have waited because it does no one any good. However, I will point out how your "support" is not as strong as you make it out to be.

[Misunderestimator]

42. How does saying that you will count all the votes and then not 12 hours

later conceding without counting all the votes make you honest? And you can point out all you like about what you think my support was. I supported him more than I've ever supported anyone other than my own family or partner in my entire life. I'm at peace with what I've done, and I'm at peace with my belief that Kerry is a good man. It will never change the fact that I think they made a mistake in this regard.

I really don't like arguing with you sangh0, we've been through this before re. religion, and it's really tiresome.

[BurtWorm]

44. You're arguing with a wall, Misunderestimator.

I've made the mistake of trying to reason with this wall before. You might as well just bang your head against one.

[Misunderestimator]

45. Thanks, Burtworm....

sometimes I just can't help myself... :hi:

[BurtWorm]

47. Me too.

:eyes:

:hi:

[BurtWorm]

43. I'm seriously just asking.

I don't mean to insinuate anything about either DUers or Kerry with this. I just find it remarkable how quickly people's feelings for him turned. I can understand it. It took me a very, very long time to warm up to him. My feelings for him were kind of shallow, I guess. Maybe that's why, come to think of it, I didn't have as violent a reaction to his concession as you, for example.

[Misunderestimator]

50. btw... I was also a Dean supporter until he conceded...

it took me a while to warm up to Kerry as well, but when I did, I did. Which is why I still believe him to be a good man.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

21. Here It Goes...

I didn't support him in the primaries... I had no dog in the primaries ... I just wanted the candidate best able to beat Bush...Among those candidates I thought Graham or Clark were the best... Graham because he might have brought Florida and Wes Clark because he was a southerner with military creds... Out of the second tier Kerry was definitely the best choice....


Myself and a couple of other posters argued ad nauseum and ad infinitum that the last non southern Democrat to be elected to the presidency was JFK in 1960 and he was one of the most gifted and charismatic politicans in American history... We were ignored...


That being said I give props to John Kerry . He used George Bush as a punching bag in the first debate... So many people voting for Bush voted for him in the knowledge that he's a natural idiot...

It's not his fault but John Kerry was a bad fit for the Electoral College... Hell any northern Democrat is... We won't see a northern Dem as our president in our lifetime...

I like John Kerry ... He's a mensch... When that kid came up to him in Ohio and told him all the work he did for the campaign and John Kerry gave him his tie to keep as a memento it touched me... It's the little things we do when nobody's looking that reveal our character... And George Bush doesn't even deserve to be mentioned in the same breath...

[noamnety]

24. I still support him 100%

I have total faith in him.

[GreenPartyVoter]

25. Instant Runoff Voting in the Primaries, Burt

Couldn't hurt the Dems more, could it?

-----------------------------------------------------------
FIGHT! Take this country back one town and state at a time!
http://www.geocities.com/greenpartyvoter/electionreform.htm

[BurtWorm]

46. Dean is the only Dem I've ever heard use the phrase Instant

Runoff Voting. More should!

[ecstatic]

26. The base was never behind him to begin with

The base was behind Dean. It was the independent/non-liberal leaning Iowans who decided to throw Kerry's name out there. Then everyone else jumped on board because he seemed "safe." We should have never allowed it to happen.

[sangh0]

27. No, the "base" was NOT behind Dean

as demonstrated by how the "base" actually voted in the primaries. Either that, or the "base" is dumb enough to listen to the DLC/media/pick-your-favorite-boogeyman

[alteredstate]

29. I can't believe he didn't fight.

n/t

[THUNDER HANDS]

33. people on this board were always split over kerry

but the fact is, if kerry couldn't beat bush no Dem running this year was going to.

[FrenchieCat]

36. That is

YOUR Fact.

My support for Kerry was shallow, period. I wanted Wes Clark, at least for VP...because I knew what this election would be about...a Wartime president basking in the war on terror/a culture war...and I didn't underestimate Bush and his voting machines. We needed an overwhelming majority of votes everywhere to win......

Kerry didn't deliver.

I admire politicians who win that much more...cause that's 1/2 of it. He didn't, even with the Democratic machine behind him, millions of dollars and current events breaking his way.

He made a terrible choice with Edwards as VP (nice guys finish last) and that foretold what would happen next.

I voted for Kerry, but only because I was voting against Bush. I don't blame myself because of it.....I blame Kerry for not being able to make me excited about his candidacy.

The rules at the convention not to Bush bash......not to deal with Iraq until the very end of the campaign....bringing the Vietnam service as though it was his only prerequisite to National Security, his lack of stating clearly is stance on his war vote, the 87 billion dollars, or fighting back immediately against the Swift Tidy bowl crew....these were bad decisions made by Kerry and his campaign.....and the results showed in the vote.

[THUNDER HANDS]

38. and if we had won Ohio

Edwards would have been a great pick. The convention would have been great. And every move would have been genius.

Nobody knew how this election would have turned out. Hell, every correct move in the book doesn't erase voter fraud and intimidation and the fact that the GOP controls the voting machines.

[FrenchieCat]

39. Considering that

Kerry was running against the worst President in History...it should not have even been close. The fact that we almost won doesn't really hold water in my book. This should have been a slam dunk to a great extent, even having to deal with the creepy whore media.

[Awsi Dooger]

59. That's the nonsense that led to all the idiotic landslide threads

From an incumbent standpoint, you're only the worst president in history if your base agrees with that and abandons you. There was always 100% evidence that was not going to happen, in fact exactly opposite. Bush always had 45% locked up and plenty of ammo to pursue the swing 10%, specifically high marks on personal qualities and fear as an ally.

Ther is no such thing as a slam dunk when we concede 25+ states and nearly 200 electoral votes before the game begins.

[Flammable Materials]

34. His support disintegrated for us, what are you talking about?

He left us twisting in the wind!

Dan Rather worked harder to defend the Bush memos! How much harder should Kerry have worked to defend the importance of counting every vote?

He gave up before the military votes could be counted!

[AuntPatsy]

35. kerry is a grown man, not at all new to politics, he as well as this

whole country was very aware of the dirty tricks this administration was guilty of committing in 2000 to steal this election, he is my candidate because he should be able to take criticism, if I wanted to stand behind someone with my mouth shut than I would become a bushite supporter...

Bottom line is many many people spent their time and money to help elect Kerry, considering the way they disrupt elections, he should not have so easily conceded this one, at least not in less than twenty four hours. I am upset and have that right to be, that does not mean that I am taking my support away...

I have heard that according to Randi Rhodes, Kerry and Edwards are planning to use their lawyers to investigate the many shady happenings in the repubs effort to steal this election once again, I hope it is true and he is just fighting behind the scenes so those who believe themselves to free of further scrutiny will then make a mistake.

It is the only thing that will redeem him in my eyes, he hasn't lost my support per say but he has lost for the time being my faith until he works to get it back...

I refuse to be like those mindless zombie like freepers, it is our right to question our leaders motives...

[Nicholas_J]

37. No exactlly

Kerry's support was very large. In fact Kerry actually exceeded the percentage of votes George Bush got in the states he won in 2004. I think fear of John Kerry got the republican base out in force.They outgunned us because they were afraid of losing. They came out in mass.

I hate to say it but the wedge issues of Gay marriage, and the crap about moral issues. plus the religious bigotry against ANY muslims that exists in the religious right played heavily. George Bush'sbase beleives that hitting any muslim was justified after 9/1. The day that American arrogance says changed the world.

[Doomsayer13]

41. Democrats are supposed to stick together

If Bush had loss, the republicans would still be singing his praises.

[Meshuga]

54. And that's why we lose elections

Republicans would be praising Bush while working on a take Kerry down campaign as we speak! They choose to be effective and we choose to be emotional.

[Djinn]

56. could that be because vast numbers of them

are unthinking, glaikit automotons who beleive what they're told to - I'm GLAD that group think isn't as prevalent on this side of the political divide

[Meshuga]

48. DU is not the democratic party

The sentiment in DU is not the sentiment of Democrats. It is fair to say Kerry's support in DU was shallow.

But I'm a DUer who is proud of Kerry and I think he ran a great campaign!

[mzmolly]

51. We lost because while Rove was registering voters, we were having a heated

primary. But I agree, DU-ers can be shallow and graceless.

[Meshuga]

52. Amen! n/t

[Mandate My Ass]

53. Two-way street. His support of us was quite shallow too.

What support he got from us was freely given. I'll be the first to admit I was lukewarm about him until the past two weeks or so. During that time I saw and heard some fire from him. Inspite of my initial reservations, I had donated to him and did some pamphleting, door knocking. Admittedly I did it for my own good as well as his but I did do something.

In return he promised us to make sure every vote was counted. He said that repeatedly throughout his campaign. I was disappointed that he didn't promise to rectify the wrongs that had been done to Gore or investigate and abolish BBV, but at least he said there would not be a repeat of 2000 and I took him at his word.

His about face was not only a stunning break of his word but a slap to everyone who supported him whehter that support was wholehearted or lukewarm. His excuse that he didn't want to put the country through a couple of weeks of litigation is so transparent that it's insulting considering what not doing anything will put us through.

[Lorien]

57. Exactly

I worked so hard for that man. I've been fighting the flu this past week, and still I canvassed, called, drove people to the polls...I feel completely betrayed. I was ABB and never really liked Kerry, but I cared enough for my country to fight like hell for him. He did not.

[jmaier]

58. I'm a bit surprised

but I think it's a heartfelt emotional release. From my perspective, (not a Kerry primary supporter), he ran a long, hard, courageous campaign. I'm proud to have voted for him. I have no regrets and I'm not about to second guess his choices. We feel bad -- can you how he is feeling today.

I'm ashamed that we are so quick to turn on our own. Kerry didn't lay down -- he got beat by a very aggressive, mean-spirited campaign team orchestrating wedge-issue driven GOTV that was simply too strong to over come simply with more money and an enthusiastic but not precisely coordinated grassroots movement.