Forget about privacy Dean, release your records and shut these people up!

[ecstatic]

As much as I understand Dean's reasons for having the records sealed, its clear that many people are either falsely or genuinely not comprehending his reasons.

I'm tired of hearing about Dean's sealed records! Dean should just unseal them and let the chips fall where they may. :shrug:

[dsc]

1. The problem is that it isn't his privacy

but his constituent's and other's privacy.

[sangha]

3. That's not true

The law requires that personal info be stricken before it's released. The records can be released without invading anyone's privacy.

[dsc]

14. I posted this example before and no one could answer me

Say a person wrote the following,

Dear Howard,

I thank you very much for granting civil unions to your citizens. My partner and I are currently in Mississippi teaching but I will get my Masters next year and can leave. We are looking to relocate out of MS and would love to consider Vermont. He is from there and I am from Ohio so his state is better for us. I am an avid skier and my partner loves hockey. We need to know what the market is like for math and english teachers in Vermont as we would both need jobs. Where would we write to find that out.

Again, thank you very kindly for standing up for us on civil unions. I can't wait to 'marry" Jack in Vermont.

Sincerely

John Doe
address

Now all that would be redacted is the stuff below sincerely and Jack. From this it would be very likely that a person who had these people in class would know who they are talking about. It wouldn't take Sherlock Holmes to determine that the guy from Ohio with the picture of himself skiing on his desk who lives with the guy from Vermont with the hockey picture on his are a couple. It is one thing for this stuff to be released in Vermont but for it to be released nationwide could cause havoc.

[ecstatic]

18. exactly. i can picture Fox News knocking on the doors

of these citizens and destroying their privacy indefinately. But the naysayers just don't get it, and is it worth having Dean continually smeared in the media?

[babzilla]

34. yeah, how about those naysayers

they're a bitch aren't they.

Always with the rehashing and the continual smearing.

dickweeds is what I call 'em.

[TorchTheWitch]

52. huh

Now all that would be redacted is the stuff below sincerely and Jack.

Says who? Whoever wrote the letter would have their info redacted as well. The entire letter or parts of the letter could be redacted. Obviously, no one cares to make this kind of personal info public, and no one is suing Dean to try making this kind of info public. Dean himself didn't care about this kind of info being made public since he never sealed many personal letters or redacted any info from them contrary to his claim that the reason he sealed certain records was to protect the privacy of constituants.

From this it would be very likely that a person who had these people in class would know who they are talking about. It wouldn't take Sherlock Holmes to determine that the guy from Ohio with the picture of himself skiing on his desk who lives with the guy from Vermont with the hockey picture on his are a couple.

Assuming such photos exist and anyone who sees them knows of your sample letter being made public, what it says and are able to connect the people described in the letter to those they know as well as know that both men are gay and are a couple. If Dean had NOT made such an issue over this, it's highly doubtful that anyone would even have a reason to go to Vermont and dig up this letter who knows both Jack and his partner, knows they are both gay and knows that both men have photos of their partner on their desk, and are still able to connect the scant info in your sample letter to the two men. It's still a stretch even after Dean made such a nationwide public issue over his sealed records.

It is one thing for this stuff to be released in Vermont but for it to be released nationwide could cause havoc.

It already has. Dean ALREADY made available unredacted personal letters from constituants that revealed personal information about them and nothing was redacted, so anyone who looked at them would know those peoples' names and addresses, like this woman...

http://news.bostonherald.com/national/national.bg?articleid=117
<snip>
Also made public: a 1991 letter to Sheri Arpin of St. Albans, who wrote Dean looking for help with her depression.

Arpin said she was shocked the letter was released, given Dean's claims that he's protecting those who wrote to him. "I figured he read it, sent it through the shredding machine or in a personal file," she said yesterday. "I wish he had. That was a time when I was extremely ill."
<end snip>

Obviously, when Dean sealed his records, he didn't care a whit for the personal info of people like this, so to claim NOW that he sealed the records he sealed to protect constituants' privacy is not only ridiculous, it's a lie. He sealed speeches and press releases yet did NOT seal documents marked "not for public disclosure" right on them that cited criminal and civil penalties as well as records that had peoples' very personal info in them without any redactions at all.

http://news.bostonherald.com/national/national.bg?articleid=117

[bearfartinthewoods]

21. i think we should all send him black marksalots

so he can redact the names etc.

[dsc]

23. Have at it with my example

but if you state that some of the details would beredacted then I will demand a source for that.

[sangha]

45. Your example and the issue of confidentiality is worthless

Law and tradition make it clear that the sender of a letter has absolutely no expectation of privacy.

[dsc]

47. I don't think anyone would have thought he was running for President

but I am sure if one gets lynched in the south you can tell his family that. I am sure they will be comforted.

[sangha]

48. If confidentiality were the reason

why Dean is not releasing the records, he would have said that from the start instead of saying it was to avoid embarrassment

[dsc]

49. He was joking

but humour isn't appreciated here I guess.

[bearfartinthewoods]

60. can you provide a cite on this?

[mitchum]

53. "...gets lynched in the south" hmmm

I'm sure that I'm just misreading your intention (much like Dean's "Confederate flag remark")

[ecstatic]

4. was Lieberman telling the truth when he said there

were ways of getting around that issue (like blacking out names)?

[sangha]

6. Yes, Lieberman was telling the truth

.

[babzilla]

57. quite the devils advocate aren't you?

here is my question: was Lieberman ripping off Lazio in his debate with pen moment. I would think that Hilary would have warned him about how effective that strategy can be.

Just one stroke of the pen Gov. Dean, that is all it will take for me to lay off.

Why sure Joe, where do I sign?

[aquart]

2. Exactly WHO is having this problem?

And what are they so anxious to find?

What, precisely, is the dread suspicion that must be investigated?

[beaconess]

7. Actually, the question is why won't he release them and what's he hiding?

[ecstatic]

11. I think he's made that clear repeatedly, but since many still act confused

its best for him to just release them. All he'll do is out a couple gays, AIDS sufferers, etc. What's the harm? :puke:

[ecstatic]

8. Every time I see a TV news discussion about Dean

his "sealed records" are brought up. Its irritating, because nobody seems to be willing to accept Dean's reasons for having them sealed.

[bearfartinthewoods]

22. which reason? the political one o0r the executive privledge one or

the privacy one?

[Toot]

5. Unfortunately I agree with you, even though Dean has valid reasons...

it would really shut some people up.

[Bombtrack]

9. Except his privacy excuse is null as well

several newspapers have confirmed that any third party embarrassment/privacy issues would be protected if he signed off on releasing the records

[in_cog_ni_to]

10. There's no reason he couldn't have

released them already. Privacy isn't an issue. Any "private" correspondence he had concerning civil unions and such, could have been extracted.....loooong ago. He's hiding something. Why else would he keep them sealed?

[ecstatic]

12. Why would he turn them over to a judge

if he was hiding something?

[Jerseycoa]

13. To take it all past the primaries? nt

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

27. Only to get potentially hammered with the "info" in the GE?

Not bloody likely.

[Jerseycoa]

33. In the GE

He CAN argue the other side's records are secret. In the primaries, he can't. Just keep them closed as long as needed. After that, we just have to live with it because we've already accepted a bad deal and it's all we've got.

[TorchTheWitch]

15. when

did Dean turn these files over to a judge?

[ecstatic]

20. a while back

He has said so repeatedly during the debates.

[TorchTheWitch]

29. ahhh...

He has said so repeatedly during the debates.

He's said so repeatedly, but he isn't being truthful about that. He's already had his attorney file an Answer with Counterclaim to the Complaint... he's still fighting the suit regardless of what he says. In case you aren't aware of what a Counterclaim is, Dean is suing the people that sued him to open his sealed records, which goes beyond merely fighting the suit to keep the sealed records from being opened.

http://www.judicialwatch.org/3536.shtml

[chocolateeater]

41. So the Attorney General of the State of Vermont is Dean's lawyer?

Also if you look closely, you will see that Dean's signature is not on the Counterclaim. It is only on the Memorandum Of Understanding between Gov. Dean and the Secratary of State of Vermont, which was appended to the Counterclaim. Please note that the dates of these signatures are in January of 2003. The date on the Counterclaim is December 23, 2003. The date of the original claim is December 3, 2003.

[TorchTheWitch]

59. well

Also if you look closely, you will see that Dean's signature is not on the Counterclaim. It is only on the Memorandum Of Understanding between Gov. Dean and the Secratary of State of Vermont, which was appended to the Counterclaim.

Doesn't make any difference whether Dean's signature is on the Counterclaim... court documents are written by and signed by the attorney of record who files those documents on the client's behalf - in this case, Dean (just like it's done everywhere all over the US). There are probably other documents that were filed with the Counterclaim that are part of the Counterclaim that aren't shown on the website (just like the Exhibits weren't shown) like the client Verification and Certificate of Service. They may go by other names in Vermont, but essentually the client Verification is a statement from the client that the info in the Counterclaim is true and correct to the best of their knowledge. A Verification absolves the attorney of any wrongdoing if the client later tries to claim that info in the Counterclaim (or any other court document filed on behalf of the client) is incorrect or that the document was filed without their permission.

Please note that the dates of these signatures are in January of 2003.

I assume here that you're talking about the Memorandum of Understanding? Apparently, if it was signed in January of 2003, that's when they negotiated the terms of sealing the records. I have no idea what the significance of the date of the signing of the Memorandum of Understanding is here... all that matters is that it was signed before the lawsuit, which it was by nearly a year.

What is most interesting about the Memorandum of Understanding is that there is no law or statute in Vermont that allows anyone to enter into a Memorandum of Understanding to seal records.

http://www.judicialwatch.org/cases/107/deancomp.htm
<snip>
There is no Vermont statute or other law that authorizes a governor (or anyone else, for that matter) to enter into a "Memorandum of Understanding" as a means of preventing public review of a governor's official correspondence.
<end snip>

The date on the Counterclaim is December 23, 2003. The date of the original claim is December 3, 2003.

Makes sense. JudicialWatch and Attorney Manitsky sued, and Dean's attorney countersued a few weeks later... that's normally how it's done. Most states have a deadline to file an Answer and Counterclaim (if a Counterclaim is applicable) in roughly 30 days from the date of service of the lawsuit.

[beaconess]

42. He also claimed that he's letting a judge decide because if he were

to release them, people would accuse him of hiding something.

Since when is Dr. Dean worried about being accused of anything, especially if it's false? I thought he was a straight shooting kind of guy who never lets others cow him into backing down. So why should he care if some folks accuse him of hiding something if he isn't?

[candy331]

17. People that keep bringing up Deans records

are not concerned with his records they are people who are not for Dean and are cowardly hiding behind records to do so. If they had the records does anyone think for a moment this would end the matter for them? Of course not! Dean has told you about the records so let the Judge/court do their job.

[Leilani]

16. Dean people are bashing Clark

for info that he released in his records, but Dean's records should be off limits.

Makes sense to me.

[babzilla]

19. what is the point of this thread?

who are you trying to shut up?

I'm asking because I haven't heard this topic brought up in a couple of days.

Until now that is. :shrug:

[Democrats unite]

24. Now fair is fair...

People here have been screaming to Bush & Cheney to release sealed records. We are of a consensus here why they haven't. Shouldn't our candidates be held to the same standard?

[dsc]

25. Yes

and if Dean were withholding records of the nature that Bush is I would be saying he sould release them. The records that Bush is withholding are public in nature and very relevant to us. We still don't know who is on the energy task force nor what they said. Dean is withholding private things. That is a big difference.

[Democrats unite]

26. So we think...

The records are sealed no one knows for sure but Dean. Trust me when I say this is going to come back & haunt Dean, Just like it is going to the others mentioned also.

The more this gets brought up the more I am convinced he is trying to hide something.

[dsc]

28. Go to post 14

and tell me how that letter would be editted not to allow those people to be outed. I will require a citation of a similar redaction if you are going to say that more than the name and address would be redacted.

[Democrats unite]

30. Thats getting old...

Plain and simple you seal something to hide something. Nuff said!

[dsc]

31. Yeah

He is hiding the identy of gays. I mean why would he do that. It isn't like they get the fuck beaten out of them (no wait it is like that). It isn't like they lose their jobs for being gay (no wait it is like that). It isn't like their parents desert them (no wait it is like that). So go to my post 14 and back yourself up.

[babzilla]

40. its lucky for Clark

that his records are sealed by the military.

Is there any legal process in place that would unseal Clark's correspondences between himself and his troops or his military consultants?

Would this sort of decision to release records go before a military tribunal or what?

[Clark4VotingRights]

54. Actually Clark has released his records. Good try though.

eom

[babzilla]

55. which ones

and where can I find them?

[babzilla]

32. message received

The more this gets brought up the more I am convinced he is trying to hide something.

come on back and haunt Dean's sealed records controversy regularly y'all, ya hear?

[windansea]

35. of course we will

just like Kerry's IWR vote is haunted every week..just like Clarks Axciom/kosovo/etc is haunted every week etc etc

Dean has flipped and flopped and LIED on this issue many times:

he started out saying he was sealing the records for future political concerns and to prevent political opponents from using them

then it was to protect privacy of his constituents

then it was in the courts hands

his latest statement is a bald faced lie:

Jan. 19 issue - When pressed on why he refuses to release a large chunk of his records as Vermont governor, Howard Dean has a standard response: he's being sued over the issue by a Washington watchdog group, so he's leaving the entire matter up to the Vermont courts, where a judge can decide which documents can be released. "Why can't a judge look at every single piece of paper and make that decision?" Dean asserted during a debate in Iowa. But Dean's explanation has drawn a demurral of sorts from a surprising source: his own lawyer in the case. Vermont Attorney General William Sorrell, a longtime Dean ally, told NEWSWEEK, "I wouldn't quite agree" with Dean's analysis. In court papers, Sorrell—on behalf of Dean and the state—isn't asking for a Vermont judge to review all the records. He is asking the judge to toss out the lawsuit and declare all 146 boxes of sealed records barred from disclosure on the ground of "executive privilege."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3927029/

[babzilla]

38. of course you will

you needn't reassure me, I never doubted it.

[windansea]

39. so can you or another Dean supporter

tell us why Dean's multiple statements and lies about his sealed records are defensible and how, if he is the nominee, he will be able to attack Bush and Cheney for their sealed records??

[babzilla]

44. the last 3 governers of VT have had their records sealed

for a min. of 6 years. The executive privilege for a governer to seal a portion of their records has been upheld by the Vermont Supreme Court before Dean ever got there.

http://rutlandherald.com/hdean/76483

Vermont's Supreme Court extended executive privilege to cover a governor's official papers in a 1990 ruling, so it has affected only three former governors.

Madeleine Kunin sealed 46 percent of her official papers for six years when she stepped down in 1990. In 1991, after former Gov. Richard Snelling died of a heart attack, his aides sealed 40 percent of his records for more than seven years.

The difference between Dean and Cheney's records being sealed is that Cheney is a V.P. who does not have the executive privilege granted to him by the courts. Dean on the other hand as the VT. Governer did have the executive privilege of sealing records as granted by the Vermont Supreme Court prior to Dean's governership.

Cheney is not granted executive privilege to keep his meetings and advisors private until a court rules as such. Whether the U.S. Supreme Court is going to take the matter up remains to be seen.

[windansea]

50. were those VT govs quoted

saying they were sealing their records for future political considerations and to prevent future opponents from using them?

did those former govs then change their story 3-4 times>

did they lie on national TV about them as Dean did??

[babzilla]

51. well, one of them was dead

so Snelling probably didn't say much about it.

Don't know what Madeline Kunin had to say about her sealed records, it seems like it is SOP for most governers in the nation no matter what their future intentions are.

[windansea]

43. still waiting for an answer n/t

[TorchTheWitch]

36. hmmm...

and if Dean were withholding records of the nature that Bush is I would be saying he sould release them.

Dean's records are sealed... so how do you know what's in them? How do you know he isn't hiding records that are just as bad or even worse? I'm not saying he is (obviously, I can't know what's in them either), but no one can claim here that they know he isn't hiding something in them that's just as bad because none of us know what's in them.

The records that Bush is withholding are public in nature and very relevant to us.

How do we know this? Those records are apparently sealed and we have know way of knowing if they're public in nature or relevant to us. Further, Dean's records that are sealed are potentially just as public in nature and relevant to us... why should his remain sealed and someone else's be opened?

We still don't know who is on the energy task force nor what they said.

That would be Cheney's records... about which Dean publically stated they should be revealed to the public.

http://www.judicialwatch.org/092503_PR.shtml
<snip>
"On September 15, 2003, Dean called on Vice President Cheney to 'level with the American public' and release the Cheney Energy Task Force records. While we appreciate Dean's implicit support of our ongoing litigation on behalf of the American people's interests in accountable and transparent government, we believe he should follow his own advice...."
<end snip>

Dean is withholding private things. That is a big difference.

Some private things, probably. Nobody cares about the private things, and anything that should remain private could be redacted to preserve any privacy of contituants as they should be. However, not only was very private information in Dean's records not sealed to begin with, within the sealed records are public papers that should be revealed such as press releases and speeches.

http://news.bostonherald.com/national/national.bg?articleid=117
<snip>
Also readily available are letters written to and from Dean detailing personal struggles and medical conditions of his constituents.

They include correspondence with a couple about the care of their daughter with Down syndrome and Alzheimer's and a couple who detailed to Dean the medication they take.

...

Dean sealed many of his government files for 10 years - including all his press releases and many speeches, keeping them private until 2013.
<end snip>

[dsc]

37. Read post 14

give me an edit of that letter that you can back up as being one that would be allowed that would protect that privacy. Then I will answer you.

[bhunt70]

58. Here you go.

Dear Howard,

I thank you very much for granting civil unions to your citizens. My partner and I are currently in <state> <employment> but I will get my Masters next year and can leave. We are looking to relocate out of <state> and would love to consider Vermont. He is from there and I am from <state> so his state is better for us. I am <personal interest> and my partner loves <personal interest>. We need to know what the market is like for <employment> and <employment> in Vermont as we would both need jobs. Where would we write to find that out.

Again, thank you very kindly for standing up for us on civil unions. I can't wait to 'marry" <name withheld> in Vermont.

Sincerely

<Name Withheld>
<Address Withheld>

[w4rma]

61. I want to see Clark's NED papers. (n/t)

[arewethereyet]

46. two points

if it was the ethically right thing to do before(sealing them), it remains so now.

If it was not, its too late to matter.

This is the least of his problems.

[stickdog]

56. Yes, take a tip from Axciom, Howard.

Forget about the privacy rights of American citizens.