Calling all DUers in Red States! Visit a "born again" church tomorrow!

[goclark]

It is a valid point that we really don't understand where they are coming from with the Christian Right.

Tomorrow, would be the perfect time to attend one of their church services. This should be especially meaningful because this Sunday should be a real celebration day for their Lord and Savior George Bush!
Note: I know, I know it will be hard to listen but you may learn something.:think:

Stop at the literature table and take copies of the latest flyers.That should give you a good understanding of the church traditions and culture.

I believe that you will be warmly welcomed. One thing I know about born agains is that they really want to pull you in to their way of thinking.

There are a few things to remember.
. Let them see you put money into the collection plate. If you have to march in front of the minister to give more for his collection, do it. Give him $5 at least.

. When they sing and raise their hands in prayer, if you are Christian and you feel comfortable doing it, raise your hands too!

. Always take your Bible, with a bookmark

If they ask you are you born again say, " Yes! Jesus is my personal Lord and Savior!" You really aren't telling a lie and that will make them feel that you are a good person.

I have visited born again churches a few times. They were always nice to me.

Let us know what happens!

[Randi_Listener]

1. I'd rather eat my own bowel movement.

n/t

[goclark]

3. ROTFL I know exactly how you feel

but somebody has got to "see" exactly what is happening there.
We are the perfect ones to do it.
It will broaden our understanding.:think:
Remember, we are the party of inclusion.

[Cronus Protagonist]

25. Would you eat mine too? I don't want to go either

:)

Show your support for the president, wear a FUCK BUSH button!

http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13
(We usually ship same or next day by first class mail)

[lynintenn]

2. They will celebrate

all be thanked and saying praise Jesus

[goclark]

5. You got it

I wonder how many of the ministers will thank them for their vote?

How many will say what their next political goals should be, how they will organize.:think:

[HR_Pufnstuf]

4. Yes, but be sure to...

... make some home-made Avery label stickers in Microsoft Word with

"Buck Fush" or
"Who needs a Church if you never sin?" or
"Religion Kills, Science Saves"

and have some fun.

[goclark]

7. Avery sticker : Kerry is Christian too!

You could stick it on the toilet paper roll in the bath room for some nice person to see a little later. :)

[wuushew]

6. Time for militant atheism

they are still human and subject to the degenerative effects of scorn and ridicule. Payback is a bitch and I will give as good as I take.

[arewenotdemo]

73. Yes! Give shame a chance!

But as I aksed (without reply) once before: are the sheeple really shameable?

[THUNDER HANDS]

8. how about we ask them to visit a VA Hospital

or a homeless shelter, or a women's shelter or a FUCKING LIBRARY.

[goclark]

10. Good points

But in order to say that, you have to get to know them.

I believe they are basically good people. Just sheep for their church.

Forgive them for they know not what they do.

[THUNDER HANDS]

12. i don't buy that, they know exactly what they're doing

thinking they're just misguided or dumb is what got us in this mess in the first place.

I'll settle on making them feel that the GOP is so bad that they should just stay home rather than vote.

If we can turn them off to the GOP, we'll accomplish a lot more with less effort than if we try to win them over to our side.

[goclark]

13. In order to turn them off to the GOP

we can not sit in front of our computer and blame them for giving their votes to their savior GWB.

We have got to get to know them in their own religious setting and find out how they really think.:think:

[THUNDER HANDS]

17. religious setting? think?

maybe we should shoot for finding them where they work.

[goclark]

20. I have worked with many of them

In fact I have visited the churches of co-workers.

I get an entirely different sense when I see them in their church circle of friends.

I also had a friend that was Mormon. She would always explain her church to me.

About 20 years later, I attended the open house of a Mormon Temple in Michigan. It was entirely diferent than I had imagined. Much more sheltered from the world I lived in.

[alittlelark]

72. YES....YOU ARE RIGHT ON

My mom is one.... they know what they are doing - their minister tells them. The minister is the one who tells them what to think/feel.....there is nothing more.


There are not enough re-programming experts to de-progam this country in less than 20 years.


And that is:( :(

[KitSileya]

26. Ahhhh, but that is where our opinions differ.

I do not think anyone would join these cults if they didn't have a deepseated need to dominate other people and feel better than them - they are the heirs of the pharisees. They know they are better than everyone else, so they find a religion that confirms that to them. Their belief also absolves them of any guilt for what they may do to the 'others'. Since they aren't as good, if they hurt, it doesn't matter.

Remind you of someone? If you say the nazis, give yourself a cookie. If you also say nietzsche, give yourself a jarful.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

49. No, sorry, they are not good people

and anyone who voted for bush a few days ago has blood on their hands.

The blood of innocent Iraqis we are still killing.

And the blood, shed unnecessarily, of our servicemembers who are still being killed.

[arewenotdemo]

75. Library not a good idea

They'll only check out the "Left Behind" series and "Unfit for Command".

[Walt Starr]

9. There's a better way to experience an even more religious event for them

Wait until next Friday evening and attend a high school football game.

[goclark]

11. Yea! That is another good way to see them in action

I am suggesting the church because it would be compelling to see how they celebrate their Savior GWB.

I want us to gain insite into the fabric of their religious experience.:think:

[mmonk]

14. No thank you

I could go into a rage. It might look bad.

[goclark]

15. I didn't say it was easy

but we have got to find a way to find out how they operate in their church home.

I can't think of another way to do it.

[seabeyond]

16. my kids go to a christian school

i know what they are saying and doing. get a regular dose

[goclark]

18. What state do you live in?

If you live in a red state did you see an overwhelming get out the vote effort from the school?

[seabeyond]

27. yes.... panhandle of texas

ultra conservative and baptist. the chrildren in the school made comments like

kerry is not a christian,
repug are christians
god is a republican

minister preached at hour chapel on thurs right before election that kerry is a murderer. and showed pictures. i have to find out what pictures

yes, they absolutely are political and bring the kids into it. they know gay issue and abortion, with disgust me. kids at this age have no reason to know about this.

also i pulled news off my tv because the kids were getting too much. yet still they were bringing it home from school on a regular basis. it wasnt us bringing our support of kerry into the school, it was feeding and brainwashing kids for bush

also on regular basis during chapel they would talk bush, not jesus, how great he is, what a good christian man, how hard he works, a hero to the minister. the kids love adn idolize this minister.

[goclark]

29. Wow! Do your kids like the school?

How can you take it!

I will certainly say a prayer for you.

Question: When they voted were they in long long lines ?

[seabeyond]

32. we did like it, last spring

along with the movie passion, i saw this behavior really take hold. we have been addressing it since. tried to get them into public, but the one with money too full, the public in my district is poor. remember we are in texas and have had no child left behind longer than the nation.

i kept boys out of school wed and thurs and talking about going back to school with bush a winner oh was so hard for them. my oldest wants to go to poor public christmas break, youngest wants to stay in san jancinto. then get them into money public next year. they are expanding and will be room.

the reason i tell you all this,........

myt boys are christians,.......they live it. adn why this school is so hard for them, is they are seeing these beautiful people living in hate. and that is what is hurting them, listening to and seeing the hypocrisy

i am not worried about my kids, we have been there 6 years, we know everyone, and they know me. i am a hands on mom and they know this. took kids to school friday and oldest teacher embraced and welcomed oldest, told him they missed him, adn told me i know best, i am mama

they are confused, they are sheep. they see the lite of my children, the grace, they see it in the family, yet thru religion told we are the unchristian. throws them in their religion. my oldest last spring asked his teacher, and she is wonderful........he asked, is my mom a good christian. i dont follow their rules, and left quite an impression i am sure on this teacher. she says, yes your mom is.

even tho

i am not according to them

it has all been hugely interesting and a learning experience. did i say i am not worried about my kids. i take care of this, even in their challenge of school. my oldest say we are suppose to be there to help these people see the lite, wink.

[goclark]

33. Sounds like you have great kids

and it sounds like the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

My prayers are we all of you.

You story helps all of us to understand what is going on with the church schools.

[seabeyond]

36. thank you. i am feeling we stay with the voter fraud

and theft. that it is ours to help them to own this. will be interesting to see the school for the next couple weeks if voter fraud expands and takes off. also have to go to the biggest of church, the minister use to be the superintendent adn he is the one that welcomed us in all those years ago. he is the one that challenged me, that i had to go to church weekly as a family unit to go to that school. i told him all those years ago no. i couldnt sign that because we wouldnt be going to a church. but you have to he says. i wont i say. i wont lie. adn i wont lie to get into the school. and i certainly wont lie about this.

he accepted us. and has accepted we dont have a church all these years. anyway i think it is time i sit with him. knew i would, just now seems to be the time

what i see with so many of these people work with what your post is all about. we in the red states have to help these people back on the path of god. they have redirected towards darkness, wink. i think that is what the big in the election was but we left christians never addressed it. or not enough, hard enough. i am not a church goer so i couldnt do it in my church, but it is what our left church goers need to do. adn do it in love, and christ conscious so the religious can hear

[goclark]

38. Thanks for your wisdom!

[novadem]

86. Why do you send your kids to a Christian school?

If you don't approve of their value system? Why don't you send them to a public school?

[seabeyond]

92. the decision was made 6 years ago

a lot has changed since then. i dont go to church, but i am a christian. i wanted them to get a christian experience, since i dont do church

my oldest is slim, sensitive, intellectual, bully material, i wanted a safe place for him, this was it

public school had been taken over by bush no cild left behind, i was seeing the effects of it with my nephews and nieces

the public school in our area is poor and education is below average

this private school had rich poor and working class, opposed to other private school that took the money kids. i am member of country club, i see those kids behavior and i wasnt going to put them in that enviroment.

and they were a lot more accepting 6 years ago

we are working on going to a public school. in time we will make the move, when it works for the kids. they still see they have a role in this enviroment. and i take care of them there, and they have an excellent home enviroment, so they have a safe place to experience adn learn. they are beyond so many kids because they have had the opportunity of this experience

there is a higher in all things. even this.

[novadem]

99. Ironic that you criticize Christian values

yet trust them to instill values and education in your Children.

[AnnInLa]

19. I just don't think I could handle that, but it did occur to me,

that we need to start at a grass-roots level to try to change minds, or at least try to point minds in a more truly Christian direction. I could probably stand to rejoin my more moderate local church (am a lapsed Methodist). Methodists tend to be more live-and-let-live than the Baptists, or some Holy Roller sects. It would be great if we all infiltrated their Sunday School classes and nicely pointed out inconsistencies in the RW interpretation of Christianity.

[goclark]

21. I am Methodist too

My church is very open in their belief system.

It would be nice if some brave soul could attend one of their Bible Study groups. Especially if they really knew the Bible.

Sorry to say this on again-off again Methodist is not a student of the Good Book.

[anarchy1999]

22. WHY?!

n/t Are you a sadist? I'm know a bunch that stood outside of Prestonwood Baptist Church in Dallas last year and one of the women organizing the protest wound up being fired from her volunteer position with security for kids at said church. (They were holding signs on Sunday, "who would Jesus bomb".

Another church that my husband and I were attending refused to marry us because we were living together (and this was a "non-denominational church, although the pastor came from !st Baptist, downtown). The only way the pastor would consider marrying us is if we would be separated and went to counseling first. We sought out another church. One that did not condone bombing Muslims and were truly peace oriented. www.peacemennonite.org

[goclark]

23. I Am no sadist :)

First of all, I am not suggesting that anyone stand out in front of a church and picket. That is wrong.

I am suggesting visiting their church and worshiping with them.

It is not for the faint of heart but I have done it.

[chimp chump]

89. .

'They were holding signs on Sunday, "who would Jesus bomb" '

Sorry but that made me laugh. I'm sure they got a few dirty looks.

[PartyPooper]

24. Can I bring my partner along, too?

We could say that we're shopping for a new church to get married in!

What are they gonna' do...throw us out?

:evilgrin:

[goclark]

31. That would be awesome!!!

I bet that you will not be the only partners in there.

They are such hypocrites, the minister would probably be gay too!

That is what I can not take, they have so many glass houses and they have the nerve to put others down! It's wrong, so wrong.

If you go, let us know.

:bounce:

[The Flaming Red Head]

28. The only time I go inside of a church is to vote

and that bugs the fuck out of me.

[onecitizen]

30. Don't have to..........

I have my very own little family right next door to me. They are nice people though until they start with the Jesus stuff. I think material possessions runs a tight second to God in their home though. They got a LOT of STUFF(that they seem to not even use).

[kitchen girl]

34. Oh, nonononono!!

I'm a recovered Southern Baptist - haven't set foot in one of those dens of intolerance in about 30 years now. My skin crawls at the thought...

[Minimus]

35. I visit different churches quite often - the last was Pentecostal-

talk about born again holly rollers! It was as if the congregation was all drugged or something. Some started speaking in tongues, I started looking around for snakes.

I have been to many denominations, Catholic, Lutheran, Episcopalian, Methodist, (too many to name) but none have ever compared to the fever I witnessed at this particular church. I was so amazed I went back the following Sunday to see it again. I am Quaker and we are pretty laid back so it was quite a shock.

There is no way to reach these people (I hate using that expression, "these people", but I have no choice) they are way too gone.

BTW has anyone noticed that many churches are no longer putting their denomination in their name? So many in these parts, NC, are just calling themselves "Such and Such Christian Church" including the Pentecostal one I spoke of above. It is kind of like bait and switch. They are just trying to get people in the door!

[goclark]

39. Thanks for the excellent input!

I believe that I have been enriched to have visited many places of worship.

I attended a funeral for a young Muslim doctor. I was fascinated that his young son could pray in the front on the floor with his uncle.

His wife had to pray behind the rope in the back with the other women. I took off my shoes and prayed with the other women.

One of my best friends in the Mid West was Jewish. I visited the Temple with her family many times.I enjoyed the softness and serenity of the service. I loved the traditions.

My grandmother was Baptist and I love to return to her church and clap my hands and tap my feet to the music. I love the preaching in a Baptist Church!

I believe that God is everywhere,

[Auntie Bush]

53. Brovo!!! Glad you're a Clarkie.

[democratreformed]

45. Here are some of the new names popping up in Arkansas:

Here in White County, we have a "Victory Life Church" and "River of Life Church". That's all I can think of right now. But you're right, they are getting more non-denominational.

[Bridget Burke]

66. Pentecostalism has a lot of African-American influence....

Although its roots go back to Methodism, I believe. That sort of non-white behavior could be quite upsetting for someone used to proper Anglo-Saxon restraint. And "these people" are probably of a lower social class than yourself--how shocking!

Did you actually talk to "these people" before or after the service? Do you have any idea about their political beliefs? Or did you just watch them as you watch monkeys at the zoo?

The rigid Fundamentalists who are the most politically active consider the Pentecostals heretics. To those Fundies, the whole charismatic movement is a bit too ecumenical; there are even Roman Catholic charismatics.

[Minimus]

78. It was a predominantly white congregation, very few African-Americans.

And the members were from my "social class". I was familiar with the political belief from a co-worker from a previous job(she often spoke of her anti-abortion stance). She always spoke of how great her church was. She never told me the denomination though. I learned that fact after my first visit. She was surprised and happy that I came to visit and introduced me to many. Everyone was very friendly and welcoming.

The minister spoke to me for quite awhile also. He asked me where I normally attended church and when I told him the name of the Friends Meeting House, he even said that I was probably not used to his kind of preaching.

As I stated, I went back the following Sunday because I was amazed at the fever I witnessed. I was not watching them "as you watch monkeys at the zoo", I was in awe and I actually quite admired their uninhibited (obviously deep-felt) religious experience.

[MsTryska]

84. Hmm.....Maybe i should go on a Holy Roller 2004 tour too.

I was baptised Church of England, accidentally communed a Catholic and confirmed a Lutheran.


My mother naturally set up a rift for me betwene us "normal christians" and "those foot-washing bible-thumpers".

Might be time to go in their and start acting with real christian values. maybe even joining a womans groups or soemthing.


we've gotta infiltrate.

[JI7]

37. for those who do this, please report back here

i would be interested in reading it.

[goclark]

40. I can't wait to have someone try it

I would just love to be in a red state born again church tomorrow!

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

50. Tell you what hon

I'll go live in LA and you can come here to the burbs of Dallas and go to fundie churches alllll you want. Does that sound good?

[goclark]

59. No thanks Moonbeam I am an LA girl from my heart

Other than the earthquakes there is no place else on earth I'd rather be.

There are plenty of born again churches here.

In fact, West Angeles Church of God In Christ is about two miles from our house. It is beautiful. Denzel Washington( who I heard was a Bush supporter) and Magic Johnson are members of West Angeles.

They generally have 5000 people at the 8 am sevice.

[StrongbadTehAwesome]

41. I'm now atheist primarily BECAUSE I grew up in a fundie church

so trust me when I say that we don't need to "understand" how they think. We already do. I'd say that 98% of the stereotypes and insults posted here about fundies are true.

(Note: The stereotypes are NOT true of all christians, but sadly, they are true of this weird subset that's steadily gaining more and more prominence and power.)

[goclark]

43. How many of them voted for Bush?

That fascinates me because for all of their strang behavior they have now grown so powerful in the eyes of the media.

I've noticed since the election they are doing more stories about Red States. Check it out.

[democratreformed]

42. But I DO understand where they are coming from. Believe me, I was

raised in close proximity. My grandma was Pentecostal and I attended church with her regularly when I was young. That's why all the shouting and jumping around didn't scare me like it did my hubby when his grandparents took him to a Church of God. I even watched one of my cousins fall plum over the altar once in one of her "Holy Ghost" moments.

My son attends a small private school at the Church of God - not for religious reasons but for educational ones. One teenage girl who attends that school has seizures. One day, my daughter was picking up my son when the girl had a seizure. What did the mother do. Hold the girl and pray over her and say "Call on God. God will take it away."

I attended a Church of Christ college and took many Bible classes. During my first one, I was called in to the teacher's office to discuss my religion (which I had listed as Baptist).

Trust me. I understand too well. And it scares the hell out of me.

[goclark]

44. I know what you mean they are in Hollywood too

I once had a dear friend that was in the rich Hollywood crowd.
One day she invited me to a lovely luncheon at her home.
There were several big stars at the time there.
Pat Boone and his wife were there.

I had met them before.
After the lunch we all gathered in a circle.
The next thing I knew, they were all talking in tongues!

My grandmother was Baptist and I was often there to see people falling out in the aisles.

But I tell you, I was never as shocked in my life. There I was watching Pat Boone speaking in tongues!

I am always reminded of that day when I hear them bashing the Hollywood crowd. I bet there are lots of "born agains" in Hollywood that they wouldn't believe to be "one of them."

[democratreformed]

46. Before the election, whenever I discussed what I would do if we lost,

I said "Go to church." Now that it has happened, though, I just can't bring myself to do it.

[goclark]

47. I feel the same way!

Why is that, we should want to go.

I just don't ewant to go at all.

[democratreformed]

52. I don't know about you, but I feel betrayed.

I just can't support a group of people who do not care about innocent people being bombed on a daily basis, but who care about telling Americans how to live their lives.

It is totally beyond me. Completely. I can make absolutely no sense of it.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

48. I've been to such churches

and quite a bit. I know all too well how they think, how they feel, what they talk about in church. I grew up in Dallas and in the surrounding area. The only states I've ever lived in are Texas, Georgia, and Alabama.

I don't have to go to know, I already do.

And I'm just going to say right here, there is NO UNDERSTANDING BIGOTRY. There is NO appealing to it. There is no working with it or talking them out of it. Period.

Here's how they work: they skip the parts of the Bible that make them uncomfortable, such as most of Jesus' teachings and the stuff about giving all your possessions away and how hard it is for a rich man to enter heaven.

Instead, they focus on how horrible everyone else is. And how wonderful they are. The place is rife with self-righteousness.

They feel they are perfectly justified in judging others because of a book in the bible titled "Judges."

They pick and choose the portions that serve their own hateful agenda.

I know these people well. I live among them, I work with them. They feel if they give some clothes to a shelter or have a canned food drive, they have done the Lord's work and don't need to bother themselves with anything else, besides condemning homosexuals and screaming and yelling over embryos.

Social justice is not part of their vocabulary. Compassion is just a word.

I'm going to a UU church tomorrow for the first time (Unitarian Universalist). They accept people of all faiths and NO faith. Atheist, pagan, agnostic, Buddhist, Hindu, Christian, it doesn't matter. They are concerned with matters of true compassion and social justice. That is where I belong.

As for what you will learn if you go to a born again church: you may learn quite a bit in one day, you may not learn much at all. They may let slip a racist comment or two or they may eye you suspiciously for a few Sundays.

If anyone here goes to one and finds a single person TRULY distraught about the war we have waged on Iraq, I'll eat my shoe.

[arewenotdemo]

77. Rock on, Moonbeam_Starlight

Unitarians are pretty cool. I'm really a pantheist myself, that is, I believe that all consciousness is connected and part of a larger, universal consciousness.

Last time I went to a Unitarian service the minister, interpreting certain passages, suggested that the Bible did not condemn homosexuality. I just wondered why in this day and age we have to rely on archaic tribal myths/texts to validate what common sense and science has already made clear.

[SharonAnn]

94. It would be like going to KKK meetings to "understand" them and

try to build a dialogue.

There's not point in it.

They're greedy, selfish, judgmental, racist, bigots.

Oh, and did I mention ignorant? They don't want to know about anything they don't want to know about it. Education is "secular", knowledge is found in the Bible, and people shouldn't worry about anything else.

[SharonAnn]

95. It would be like going to KKK meetings to "understand" them and

try to build a dialogue.

There's not point in it.

They're greedy, selfish, judgmental, racist, bigots.

Oh, and did I mention ignorant? They don't want to know about anything they don't want to know about it. Education is "secular", knowledge is found in the Bible, and people shouldn't worry about anything else.

[texas is the reason]

51. i will need to pack lots and lots of shroom juice. then it could be fun!

[Silverhair]

54. A red county will do. Look at that red/blue map.

Sorry I don't have a link of one. But the blue states had lots of red counties. PA, NY, CA, OR, WA come to mind.

[goclark]

55. Very good point,,,,,,,,,,,,,nt

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

57. What we really need to do

is get these voting issues settled, some way, some how, once and for all.

I agree with your post, completely.

THESE ARE NOT PEOPLE YOU CAN REASON WITH!!!! Part of the reason they are the way they are is because they want to be part of a cult-like group. Ever tried to get someone out of a cult? Pretty much the same thing.

I mean far be it from me to stop someone from going to such a church tomorrow. Have at it. You might get some really frightening insight into their character. And believe me it will be frightening.

But there is no reasoning with them. I REFUSE to pander to them. They are immoral and Pharisees.

[goclark]

67. I am far from a quitter

By the way, I helped to register 0ver 1300 voters and worked from six am until 10 pm at a Polling Site. I am no quitter.


I was in shock for about one hour after the election results and I have been working to discover this FRAUD and injustice every night and day since Tuesday.

I agree with you that we have it right.

The Media is questioning our ability to relate to the Wingnuts.
If you will read the thread over 1/4 of the post reflect an awareness of the "born again" Nuts.

If you want my honest opinion, I don't think GWB has a mandate. He stole the election.

The Christian Right has joined with Bully Boy Bush to make us afraid to beat them at their own game.

I am not afraid of anybody! I want my country back!

[liveoaktx]

58. You must be kidding. I already know... I'm a former Southern Baptist

and live in Texas in the Bible belt. I no longer believe that only evangelistic, born-again Christians have a lock on salvation, and especially not when that view is used to justify racism and slaughter of innocents of other religions.

[goclark]

60. You have proved my point

Many of the posters are familiar wuth the Christian Right.
They are trying to paint us as out of touch with the people that have such strong religious views.

The Born Agains are not the enemy in my view.
They have allowed GWB to use them and abuse them.

[liveoaktx]

81. Please.. I don't consider Born-Agains the enemy-but I'm not going

to attend the church where I do not agree with the doctrine. I equally do not agree with white supremacists and see no reason to attend those types of meetings. Does that make me *out of touch* with the KKK?

The whole idea of being *out of touch* is an idea fostered by Republican propaganda. 49 percent of Americans rejected Bush-that's STILL almost half the country- I AM in touch with that half.

The Southern Baptists in this area believe that they have a mission to bring Christ to the world, that if someone isn't saved and born again, they will roast in hell, and that only those that believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God are in line for that salvation. So what does that say for the Jews who believe in God but don't believe Jesus is the Messiah? Or the Muslims who believe that Jesus was a prophet but not the son of God? Or the other myriad religions and beliefs that have scores of good, honest people with ethical and moral tenets that don't happen to believe the same way as the evangelicals?

Again, I choose not to associate with those who have such a rigid, bigoted view AT CHURCH. To say that I should start attending church just to be in touch with them is foolish, any more than those same church goers should be required to come to Democratic county meetings to be in touch with us. Does this mean that other opportunities to have discourse with those church goers don't exist? Of course not.

[goclark]

82. All born agains are not bigots

and I, as an African American, would never ask anyone to attend a KKK based church.

As I have mentioned in several posts, I have attended several born again churches.

To paint them all with one brush is dangerous.

I would also never suggest that to attend one of their churches is the only way to get to know them!

In previous discussion on this thread we have talked about seeing them at football games, in the work place etc.

My post was to get a discussion started not to "mandate" that anything must be done. I will leave the mandates to GWB. :)

Thanks for sharing your knowledge and thoughts as we work together for the greater good, the healing of America.

[gordianot]

61. I've been there. (Missouri ) ala Ashcroft

It makes my head hurt. Don't say anything or you might be healed.

:puke:

I will be frank about it, if these people are going to heaven count me out. I'll go with Will Rodgers who wanted to go where the dogs go. Harry Truman and Mark Twain had similar opinions.

There is no understanding involved. They reject reality and rational thought. They read the Bible and quote verse(often out of context). From what I read in the Bible, I suspect Jesus would have a hard time with their conduct if he were to walk in their churches in the flesh. Tell one of them that and you might get flayed or shot. Also be prepared for their sales message. Many are experts trained in delivering a convincing pitch after sizing you up. They really are good at playing on peoples fears. Just the ticket for developing Fascism.

A few years ago my brother got a Federal Firearms license and sold guns to supplement his income. He gathered several cases of AK-47's and sold them on order to a local church. He also gathered a lot of PVC pipe and cosmoline so they could store them for burial. I understand this is not terribly uncommon.

One more story. My wife has had several conversations with educators who have had contact with a seemingly harmless fundamentalist sect in Southwest Missouri. They operate much like other Pentacostals. They have a practice enouraged by this sect where the father has sex (first time) with his daughter. You tell me these people are harmless.

I recommend the works of Robert Heinlein. He was from Missouri and grew up around this drivel. I met him in the late 1960's. He wrote a series of science fiction short stories about a fundamentalist religious theocracy in America. He told me as a teenager this would happen for real someday. Guess what?

Walk into these places at your discretion. You have my story, be warned you may not know what you are getting into.

[UdoKier]

62. I hated church with a passion the few times I went as a kid.

I'm not about to start going now.

[gordianot]

63. Sam would approve.

I sure hope he is not on a cloud somewhere playing a harp trying to improve himself. He did not want that.

He would be better somewhere else smoking cigars with Grant playing poker.

[UdoKier]

64. Samuel Clemens on church...

Nothing agrees with me. If I drink coffee, it gives me dyspepsia; if I drink wine, it gives me the gout; if I go to church, it gives me dysentery.
- Letter to Henry H. Rogers, 8/7/1905

[markclemens]

83. Hard to tell

He wrote a book "Joan of Arc" and called it his greatest book and her the greatest woman in human history. Always hard to put a guy like Sam in a box.

[Digit]

65. I have already seen the light....bud light

...and it refresheth me.

[vetwife]

68. I have been in Born again churches for 54 years !

Every single one is different. My father is a former pastor. The term born again is supposed to be spiritual and not literal. Charasmatic is a cultish thing. Jimmy Carter and MLK were born again christians. Don't get caught up in that word, these Koolaid people have turned christianity into something evil ! They are the American Taliban. You will just get turned off. HAd I not been brought up knowing some truth m and walked into one of these churches today, my life would be upside down trying to grasp their Archie mentality. My Daddy a good man of the cloth has not stepped into church for over three years. I quit in April because if I stand and tesify there will be a division in the church, even though they don't preach politics there. I have spoken out on the phone about Christ's teaching and how many were wandering away from it.
They ask for no money from us. I loved that church and guess what, its evangelical but not the Benny Henn. Copeland and Falwell type. It took me years to find that church and I know the truth as I believe it and there are some good dems there. my reason for not going goes back to a personal incident regarding the death of my Mom. My husband still attends but says the 1st time politics is mentioned that he walks. The church is also multi racial..Very different in Georgia.

[chimp chump]

90. But...

"My husband still attends but says the 1st time politics is mentioned that he walks."

...my question is: so has the preacher learned yet to wait to mention politics until *after* the offering is collected?

[vetwife]

98. He mentioned it today and it was democratic view I was shocked !

No offerings taken at our church. People give it they want to..They don't pass the plate !

[nookiemonster]

69. My ex-girlfriend was from Seattle,

and decided that she wanted to try out one of the churches in my hometown. She just happened to pick one of the pentecostal (sp?) variety.

I warned her. I don't think she realized what she got herself into. I remember this lady in front of us got up quickly and started speaking tongues.

Scary shit for someone who doesn't expect it.

[NAO]

70. Skip The Church Service - The Whole Thing Is Spelled Out In Detail Here

The fusion of Evangelical Christianity with right-wing politics was NOT an accident.

The religious right is a carefully crafted, skillfully executed mass movement which does not have genuine Christian principals at heart. It is based on a perversion of Christian teachings driven by an overarching lust for political power. Most Christians would shrink away in horror if they really understood the underpinnings of the religious right political movement.

The Despoiling of America
How George W. Bush became the head of the new American Dominionist Church/State By Katherine Yurica
http://www.yuricareport.com/Dominionism/TheDespoilingOfAmerica.htm

This article is well documented, well researched and is critically important in understanding the religious right. It's not just about Christians voting their values.

a follow-up article by the same author:

Conquering by Stealth and Deception
How the Dominionists Are Succeeding in Their Quest for National Control and World Power By Katherine Yurica
http://www.yuricareport.com/Dominionism/TheSwiftAdvanceOfaPlannedCoup.htm

Links to More Articles Revealing the Rise of Dominionism in America
http://www.yuricareport.com/Dominionism/DirectoryRiseOfDominionismInAmerica.html

[chimp chump]

91. Good links on Dominionism

And they don't use the softer term, Christian Reconstructionism.

[choicevoice]

71. you have got to be shitting me!!!!!

I understand where they are coming from. I have been battling them for years.

I ...I can't even tell you how abhorent I think this is.

[Hog lover]

74. Totally disagree with giving them money!

I have suggested in other posts that we attend Sunday School classes and ask questions just to make them try to justify the killing, etc. It would be for sport, because I agree that there is no damn way these idiots will change. That's because religion takes the place of thinking.

[gordianot]

80. I know this.

When challenged in church they can become physically dangerous. This entire idea of attending their churches has considerable risk.

Be very careful. I know you mean well.

Many are clearly Christian Taliban.

[really annoyed]

76. I Should

I have a Baptist church on my corner. They always display snappy little quotes like "Give God what's right, not what's left."

After the election, they changed it to "One Nation Under God."

That pretty much gives me a clear indication of what I will find on the inside.

A shame, really. I use to attend the church when I was a kid.

[RPM]

79. and dont forget to set it afire while there...

just kidding

[Skittles]

85. If I want to be around phony, sanctimonious assholes

I will just go to work.

[chimp chump]

87. No matter who won...

...you'd expect a couple things in any of these conservative evangelical or Baptist churches: they would say that whoever was elected was God's will and they'd tell them it was their duty to pray that God would grant the president wisdom and strength in governing the nation.

Even if it was Kerry, not Bush. Actually, especially if it was Kerry.

They are very consistent about this. No properly schooled preacher would teach anything else since there's a lot of scripture on the matter. Here's a small sampling of scripture on the subject:

"bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you" (Mt 5:44; cf Lk 6:27-28); "But love ye your enemies and do good" (Lk 6:35); "And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise" (Lk 6:31), commandments repeated by the Apostle: "Bless them which persecute you, bless and curse not" (Rom 12:14), "Provide things honest in the sight of all men" (Rom 12:17); "Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink" (Rom 12:20).

Jesus and the apostles spoke pretty directly to the subject and there's little wiggling away from it. Some, not all, churches teach and try to practice these ancient virtues.

[jonnyblitz]

88. i would rather eat nails. oops

I am in a blue state....nevermind.

[AuntPatsy]

93. Been there done that, it changes only those who wish to change..

[slestak]

96. No Fucking Way

I hope you're joking.

[Flammable Materials]

97. I won't set foot in a church of any kind. Never again.

Not for a wedding, not for a baptism, not for a funeral.

I would rather give my money to a panhandler or a prostitute than give it to a church.

If I found myself in a church right now, I'd probably wind up disrupting the service by faking a demon possession or Tourette's Syndrome.

[G_j]

100. I'd rather see an "ask a Liberal" program

I know where they are coming from, but they have no idea where I am coming from. I'd be more than willing to answer their questions.