Have I been too hard on Clark?

[Bush loves Jiang]

Given his voting record, it's often hard to trust them. Nonetheless, I like what he has to say, and I believe that if, in a strange twist of fate, the man he voted against to support Richard Nixon can forgive and endorse him, then perhaps it's time for me to stop focussing on the ballot's he cast in the 70s and 80s.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

1. Thank You!

I have had the privilege of meeting General Clark several times. He exudes sincerity and honesty. I think George McGovern really gets that aspect of Clark as well.

I greatly appreciate you reconsidering your strong opposition to Clark, at least, even if you still might be going with someone else as your primary choice.

DTH

[Jerseycoa]

2. How nice

Give him a chance, go ahead. :)

[kayleybeth]

3. Please take McGovern at his word

McGovern has no reason to lie about Clark and we have no reason to not take McGovern at his word.

"I've been around the political block--and I can tell you, I know a true progressive when I see one. That's why he has my vote," McGovern said. "There are a lot of good Democrats in this race, but Wes Clark is the best Democrat."
--George McGovern
1/18/04

[mikehiggins]

4. Hey, it was youthful indescretion, or something like that.

I don't know why folks focus on votes cast in the 70's and 80's for the winning candidates (well, there are those who think Clark is running for the Presidency of the Democratic Party so that would be important to them) and discount votes for Clinton and Dean.

Of course, we only have Clark's word that he voted for Clinton and Dean, but then again we only have Clark's word that he voted for Nixon and Reagan either. Sort of a strange thing to say if it wasn't true, right?

The question of belief comes up because we don't have a history of votes and executive decisions available that make perfectly clear his unblemished record of solid liberal credentials like the rest of the candidates do. So, about all you can do is study his past (did you know he personally murdered all those children at Waco?) or his record since leaving the Army (surely being a lobbyist is a criminal activity that should carry heavy penalties? And being paid to be a keynote speaker? Where's the death penalty when you need it?) or look at his stated positions on his website (I know they are not as liberal as Dennis's and anyway, he's gotta be lying about them cause he's Clinton's stalking horse for Hillary).

Then you are free to make up your own mind like George McGovern and all sorts of other Democrats or even Mike Moore(unless you somehow decide to support Clark in which case you'd better keep your mouth shut about it, see?).

Have a nice day.

[Kathleen04]

16. Clinton and Dean?

you sure about that? ;)

[drfemoe]

17. Timelines

I don't know why folks focus on votes cast in the 70's and 80's for the winning candidates

I don't know why candidates focus on bullet wounds received in the 60s and 70s in an effort to advance their political aspirations.

[bearfartinthewoods]

20. i'm more concerned with what he did last two years like lobbying for CAPS

2

Federal disclosure records show that Clark lobbied directly on "information transfers, airline security, and homeland security issues" for Acxiom. The company was pushing the by now notorious CAPPS II, a creepy program designed to profile all airline passengers. Clark, who reportedly got $800,000 in fees for his work, lobbied the Justice Department, CIA, and Department of Transportation. According to The Arkansas Democrat Gazette, he met personally with Vice President Dick Cheney.

http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0403/nh4.php

[LTR]

23. Do you feel more comfortable with candidates

Who offer tax havens to companies like Enron?

Or improve their state's environmental standing by shuttling toxic waste to poor towns in Texas?

Tit for tat.

[windansea]

34. you do realize where CAPPS came from?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=133473

[Tom Rinaldo]

5. You got it.

And Thank You for being the type person who is willing to rethink your position. He really is on our side now, and I am glad of it.

[The Magistrate]

6. Well Said, Sir

People have been known to change and grow and reach diffeent conclusions than those of their younger days.

Opposition in a primary campaign does not trouble me, so long as it is conducted without attempting distruction, as befits a family quarrel. It draws my ire only where someone indicates they will not close ranks against the enemy once the nominee is chosen, whoever that might be.

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[VolcanoJen]

7. Nice post, Bush loves Jiang!!

:-)

[andym]

8. Remember how you know his voting record

Voting is private. Clark himself revealed his voting record.
This demonstrates his integrity, he could have withheld this information or fibbed that he voted for Democrats forever.

This itself is a good reason to trust him and to take him at his word in what he wants to do for America.

[Bush loves Jiang]

9. Then I guess I have to be honest too...

If I lived in Rhode Island, I would vote for Lincoln Chafee.

If I live in Howard Berman's district of California, I would vote Republican if Berman is ever vulnerable and Green or Libertarian if he were not. I say this as a committed cyber-libertarian: There are both Republicans and Democrats who show a deep lack of regard for cyber-liberties, and Berman is one of the worst.

[dfong63]

12. Clark was less than fully truthful about it

Voting is private. Clark himself revealed his voting record.
This demonstrates his integrity, he could have withheld this information or fibbed that he voted for Democrats forever.

when Clark was first asked about whether he'd ever voted repub, he said he "couldn't remember", but he "guessed" he had. that kind of answer is not what i'd call "demonstrating integrity", and if he'd tried to give answers like that as a west point cadet he probably would have been busted.

and if Clark had tried to lie about his voting record, he might have been caught, after all he had gone on record praising the repubs at that GOP fundraiser in 2001.

[mmm]

15. didn't remember if he ever voted republican!?!

what's with that? Is that true?

[wyldwolf]

19. No

I said he wasn't sure he voted for Nixon - said he probably did...

Hey! Did you know Bobby Kennedy worked for Joseph McCarthy?

Did you know Howard Dean went to the 1964 Republican National Convention and supported Barry Goldwater?

See? People not only have the right to support (and work) for whoever they choose, but they can also change their minds.

[End Evil]

30. You are a gem!

Hilary also supported Barry Goldwater!

Bobby Kennedy was just awful in the beginning...HUAC, my heavens!

Maybe a lot of very young or immature people do not know or accept the possibility of people changing. People can change; really.

Although endorsements don't mean much; why would George McGovern, Mary Frances Berry (Civil Rights Commissioner who oversaw the investigation into the stolen election in 2000 Florida), Michael Moore and some other progressives be for Clark? At least, please consider it.

[TexasSissy]

27. Not true. I heard Clark on TV ages ago state his voting record.

He also includes the fact that he voted for Clinton both times.

[douginmarshall]

31. Voting record

I'm disturbed by this notion that you get penalized if you did not always vote Democrat. In 1960, both of my parents voted for Nixon, By 63 my mom was attending King's speech in Detroit, when he first gave his I Have a Dream Speech. By 68 they supported Eugene McCarthy and then HHH. In 88 they voted for Jackson. They both had files in the Michigan State Police's list of "subversives" for supporting liberal causes. My Father helped to write the states first Fair Housing legeslation. Now by many standards used in this Forum they would not have been considered Democrats and probably would still not be.

They both support Clark, McGovern supports Clark, Nelson supports Clark, What more do you want.

If he did not believe what he says and is not a true Democrat why would he be doing this?

He is the Real Deal, All Patriot - NO Act

[End Evil]

32. Clark

was always an Independent. He has been a Democrat for a while. He has never been a Repuke. In articles about registration in Arkansas, apparently it is quite common to register Independent.

BIG DEAL!

BTW, this in no way attacks Kerry; it does inform this discussion. One of Kerry's campaigners is Jean Shaheen who had the temerity to attack Clark. The interviewer asked if she hadn't voted Repuke in the past as well. She had to admit she did; seemed a bit flustered; definitely was a bit hypocrtical!

So, she voted Repuke; now she supports Kerry.

Clark IS the real deal...just giving a bit more support to that idea!

[Dookus]

10. Thank you BLJ...

I would hope more people would look past their prejudices and examine the man. Good job.

[dfong63]

13. Clark is banking on prejudice

I would hope more people would look past their prejudices and examine the man.

but Clark is banking on prejudice himself, trying to play into people's prejudice that a general is better able to "defend" the country. Clark is running on image, which is largely a form of prejudice. unlike most of the other dems, he doesn't have a political track record to run on.

[FrenchieCat]

18. A General....

would be better at defending the country...duh....

I don't understand your point about prejudice. It's kinda of like if I said a surgeon would do the best surgery on me....you'd say...ha ha...prejudice.

You ain't making no kinda sense!

[dsc]

11. My problem with his voting record

is his explanation for it. He says he voted on foreign policy and not domestic policy. But I remember what the 1988 race was about domesticly. We faced losing the Supreme Court, as it was Brennan and Marshall were replaced by Thomas and Souter. The problem is that I care more about domestic issues than foreign policy ones. He wasn't there then or at best didnt' give much care to them then so I am not sure I can trust him now.

[LTR]

25. In 1988

The Dem candidate was Michael Dukakis.

I can't blame him for choosing Bush. Besides, at that time, we did not know what we know now about the Bush family. Most just saw it as Reagan without the Alzheimers and Iran-Contra (though I'm sure Bush was knee-deep in that).

1988 was the first time I ever voted for president. An I held my nose while voting for Dukakis. The guy was simply a weenie.

In 1988, to most people, Bush was the lesser of two evils. I won't hold a Bush vote against the average person in that election. But if you didn't vote for Clinton in '92, well...

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

28. Clark should have known better than to vote for Bush Sr.

There was plenty known then about the Bush enterprise.

[LTR]

29. Dukakis was a weenie

I'm a hardcore Dem, and I was tempted to vote for Bush.

Then I slapped myself in the head and voted Duke anyways.

[dsc]

33. Clark wasn't an average voter

and he supposedly cared about several domestic issues that the Court would rule on. We lucked out in Souter but no one had any way of knowing that we would get a Souter instead of a Thomas out of Bush's second pick.

[incapsulated]

14. Thanks

For being openminded and honest, you're a good example for all of us. :)

:thumbsup:

[robbedvoter]

21. McGovern convinced Mr Robbedvoter who was bothered by the Vietnam thingy

"I am impressed" he finally said (after months of fruitless evangelizing fron me). McGovern was his friend? Suddenly the whole "us vs them" during the Vietnam protests melted - at least in regard to Clark.
So, I keep this as my signature:

And that man is my friend, our leader, a true progressive, and the next Democratic president of the United States, Wes Clark.
George McGovern

[bowens43]

22. No, your first instinct was the correct one.

IMO , the only worse then Clark receiving the nomination would be Clark in the White House.

[Renew Deal]

24. Yeah, who needs peace and healthcare anyway?

:eyes:

[cally]

26. Micahael in his speech said two things convinced him about

seriously consider Clark. The first was when Clark defended his right to free speech at the Oscars before they had ever met. The second was when Clark admitted voting for Republicans. Moore said he sat up and shook his head asking himself why didn't Clark just lie. Noone would know. Moore said that he realized Clark just tells the truth even when it's not something voters want to hear.

Thanks for reconsidering Clark. I understand supporting another candidate and disagreeing. I don't understand the hatred many on this board have for Clark. I don't hear it from voters. Most say we'll be on the same side after the primaries. Many have told me that they like that Clark once voted Republican. To them it means he is more indepemdent. :shrug: