Kucinich supporters, please read-

[diamondsoul]

I need some serious help here. My patience is wearing thin and I can NOT give over to that. This deal with Edwards is bringing out the purists from the woodwork who would rather Dennis lose than compromise in any way shape or form.

I feel sick to my stomach with frustration at all this. I spent 15 minutes typing out a rant I knew would never be seen, and it hasn't helped. Dennis needs and deserves defense that I'm not capable of providing so please could some of you who GET this arrangement come to the volunteer forum and stand up for him. Me, I'm going to go indulge in a short spate of tears and get back to work for the man I trust most aside from my spouse.*sigh*

http://us.denniskucinich.us/phpBB2/index.php

[spooky3]

1. hang in there, diamondsoul

Not everyone is ever going to agree at DU. But Dennis did the right thing. If he doesn't get his 15% (even with the help of Edwards cross-overs), then if any of his supporters in Iowa does not like Edwards, he or she will be completely free to go to whatever candidate he or she can more comfortably support. All DK was trying to do was stay in the race and have his voice continue to be heard. And it is all upfront.

[AP]

2. Edwards and Kucinich are strategizing to make sure someone who

cares about people who work for a living gets elected president.

[Terwilliger]

4. So Kucinich has compromised his other stands so that he can agree...

with Edwards on jobs? Why not Gephardt then? Why not Kerry?

[corporatewhore]

5. Kerry is the front runner

[stickdog]

13. Jello just tore up his shirt. (nt)

[Terwilliger]

14. Why not Dean, then?

Why anybody in particular? Could he be...playing politics?

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

25. because Dean is the frontrunner? He doesn't need this delegate trade?

It's not an election it's a caucus. We're speculating about a similarity between DK and Edwards on some issues, but this is really strictly about their lack of organization in Iowa. Dean doesn't need it, Gephardt doesn't need it, and Kerry probably doesn't either.

[Terwilliger]

39. You just said Kerry was the front-runner

So, Edwards and Kucinich are both ailing, and the right thing to do is support each other? On what grounds?

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

56. Don't Compromise Anything! Don't Vote!

Don't vote it only encourages them.

Let me save us some time:

Dennis Kucinich is an egomaniac that is only running for the big money, so he can stay in fancy hotels like Sharpton. Kucinich is in bed with the pro-lifers too. By asking caucusers to cooperate with the Edwards camp so each of them can get over 15% and win delegates is a crass political sellout, and tarnishes Dennis symbol as the anti-war vote. True anti-war left working class people must never cooperate with other working class people who serve in the military and supported the war. Edwards vote for the IWR was morally equivalent to shooting 6 year old Iraqi girls personally, and makes Edwards a neo-con.

/giving-up

[spooky3]

7. Maybe he feels as if they agree on far more issues than

those on which he agrees with Gephardt and Kerry. Or, maybe he approached others and they refused to work with him.

Once again, no one is being forced to do anything. Iowans can do whatever they feel is right, and I am sure they will.

[Terwilliger]

16. This is not about what voters do...its about Dennis and what he says

and I'm having problems with this

[AP]

36. Why were you supporting him in the first place if you don't think

he knows what he's doing?

Democrats hate to follow.

Dean makes people feel like they're leading. Now some Kucinich supporters are pissed because they want to lead with thinking. It's time to stop, look, and listen to what K is saying.

[Terwilliger]

Dean bashing? Whoda thunkit?

K is saying that he wants to support Edwards but I cant find the reason why.

[AP]

52. Judging from the post below, it's becuase you don't know a thing

about Edwards.

It's time for you to do a little research. Informed opinions are the best opinions.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

20. Kucinich compromised what?

What are you talking about? Kucinich hasn't compromised anything?

[Terwilliger]

41. what exactly makes Kucinich the candidate he is?

as Ive said elsewhere, if he wanted to be in contention in this race, he could have had different positions from the start.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

50. he's not a symbol he's a candidate

Frankly, if Kucinich were to make a huge swing to the right, I'd be fine with that. If let's say, Kucinich really sold out and proposed getting us out of Iraq in 180 instead of 90 days, I could deal with it.

There are plenty of ways to signal your opposition to the war, and to do it officially and on record. Voting for Kucinich is one. Let's say you are caucusing in Iowa, and you and your friends decided you would not vote for any candidates who support the war (all of them except DK) then you vote DK, he gets no delegates, you go home. Why bother?

I think the deal was mostly for strategic reasons instead of ideological anyway.

[AP]

33. If you think this is JUST about jobs, I understand why you're confused

This isn't just about jobs. This is about the future of America.

What is going on in the world?

Bush is turning America into the Matrix. He and his cronies get ALL the benefits of everyone else's labor.

Kucinich cares about this more than anything else, as does Edwards.

No other candidate cares about this as much as these two candidates.

K has his PRIORITIES in order.

[diamondsoul]

8. I know, AP, and honestly

I LIKE Edwards quite a bit despite disagreements on some policies. He's a good guy, and I don't believe for a second he's in it for corporate interests (btw some twit actually said he was an attorney FOR the corporations on the volunteer board. I can't respond because my temper is in the BP overload range). He does what he believes is right based on the information at hand, and honestly, I can even understand the Patriot Acts even though I utterly and completely disagree with them.

You should see it over there, it's just unreal, and I'm blown away. On one side we've got people complaining we don't runa a campaign like Dean's and now we've got people complaining that we made a deal to stay solvent in the race. It's enough to convince me Republican-lite IS the only answer, and that just infuriates me to the tune of inifinity!

[MuseRider]

21. Sorry dear,

I am on the edge of imploding just with hearing about all of this. Why must we all overreact so? This is just the way the game is played and he is holding fast to his ideals. He is, after all a politician. A damned fine and honest one so we have to trust that this is all just part of the game. BTW, I tend to agree with you on Edwards. I have my issues with him but he seems like a damned fine human being.

[Terwilliger]

24. Why isn't Dennis Republican-lite?

He's offering the support of his people for Edwards...someone who IS Republican-lite?

With your support of Kucinich, how can you possibly play favorites with other non-Kucinich candidates, when they're all so VERY much further to the right ideologically than Dennis?

Why am I supporting Dennis again? Why are you?

[AP]

37. This should be evidence that Edwards ISN"T Repub-lite

as if you really needed it.

[Terwilliger]

46. pro-Patriot Act, pro-Homeland Security, pro-war, pro-NAFTA

pro-capitalism, pro-IMO, pro-neoliberal


Not Republican-lite?

[AP]

49. Ohmygod. No wonder you're so confused about Edwards.

He's ANTI-NAFTA -- he ran on an anti-NAFTA campaign in '98 and alwasy votes in favor of America jobs. Dan Schorr said DLC doesn't like him because of that.

He has the same position on the Patriot Act as everyone else. Keep the good stuff, get rid of the bad stuff.

He's DEFINITELY NOT NEOLIBERAL! Have your ead Lisa Duggan's book, The Twilight of Equality? She talks about neoliberals and pretty much describes the opposite of Edwards.

Pro-capitalism? You haven't paid close attention to his life as a lawyer and Senator have you?

I can't believe I'm wasting time posting a response to such an uninformed post.

T., you need to sit down with about a decade's worth of newspapers and get your facts straight. I'm stunned.

[DemBones DemBones]

40. When did you start supporting Kucinich? Seriously,

I thought you were a Dean supporter.

If you are a DK supporter, do you really have to ask why you're supporting him?

Edwards and Kucinich have much in common in regard to where they came from (poverty) and what concerns them (everyone getting a fair shake in this country.) I believe Edwards is a decent man. There is no one whose positions are just like DK's.

When you're the only real progressive in the race, you have to work with people who have drifted far to the right. That's politics.

[Terwilliger]

43. Yes, I do need to ask why I'm supporting him

I'm supporting Kucinch in much the same way I supported Nader. If I thought Kucinich had a chance of winning anything, I'd be overjoyed, but I never thought he did (outside some chance he could persuade enough of the grassroots to garner some power, which he didn't)

I started supporting him after his Prayer for America and his amazing progressive policies and stands on issues. This vote swapping with Edwards suggests that Dennis is in it for something else...something besides the ultimate goal he keeps presenting, which is that he will win.

He shouldn't be changing his ideological stands now.

[AP]

35. Getting liberal dems on the same page with a winning strategy

is like herding cats.

Too many people think it's all about them and whatever single issue they happen to think the world revolves around because their head happens to be revolving around it.

We have a world in which political, economic and cultural power is being upwardly redistributed on an increasingly steep pyramid and Edwards and Kucinich are the two who care the most about this.

Bush layed a trap with the Iraq war, and Edwards has not stepped into it.

Liberal Democrats need to get smart and see the big picture.

[Terwilliger]

3. I've asked this before...what is Dennis Kucinich going to "win"?

The general election? The primaries?

If he doesn't keep his ideological stands, he doesn't have much else. What is he dealing for? Is he trying for a cabinet position? Is he throwing his weight behind Edwards for some reason that agrees with the rhetoric he's put forward since before I saw Dennis last March?

I'm trying to understand why I'm supposed to support a man who says he's going to be president, doesn't actually believe that but doesn't let anybody know, and gives his supporters directives to trade their votes.

[Eloriel]

6. Now, now, Mr. T

Don't be snarky. :evilgrin:

Apparently he's willing to give Edwards a boost. :shrug: Who knows why? And, DK might even get a slightly better showing out of it than he would have otherwise.

[Terwilliger]

9. snarky is my middle name

Oooo! Good showing! Liek I said to somebody else, he would have had a great showing if he espoused different policies and ideals. Why start now?

[DU9598]

15. Changed me

I was totally going to make Kerry my second choice tonight, but now that will go to Kucinich. I have 20 committed Edwards folks, so we are likely viable, but Kucinich will get my vote now if my committed neighbors stay home.

[Terwilliger]

19. As an Edwards supporter

What is it that makes your second choice Kucinich? Why not Kerry? Why not Gephardt?

Do you agree with Dennis' positions? You know, they're nothing (NOTHING) like Edwards' policies.

[MuseRider]

12. OK, I have been gone for a few

hours but my take is this. They are only helping each other, not changing any stances on policy. Perhaps DK knows exactly where the evolution of Edwards is going? I do not know, I am a purist on one hand but a realist on the other and if DK can't get some momentum he will lose quicky and decisively, he gets no press and over half the people I talk to here still do not know who he is. I trust the man to not be wavering on his stances just trying to stay in the game so he can be heard. This is how the game is played. I trust him but we must always remember, he is a politician. He needs to be free to play the game at some point, at least he is not allowing himself to be spun as something he is not. Just my humble opinion, nothing more.

[diamondsoul]

22. Hey, Ter. I think I can answer you

without being a complete b*tch because most of the time I get where you're coming from.

Please think about the whole story for a minute, ok? Look at the sh*t we've had slung about how Kucinich is "inflexible", "doesn't stand a chance" "I like him but...". He GOT to overcome that somehow, doesn't he? How many ways are there to do that? How many of the other candidates would have helped him this way, seriously?

Sharpton? No, I don't think so. He's not in this to win, and I don't say that lightly. He's out there to make a statement and make race an issue. I don't disagree with it, but Kucinich doesn't play "us versus them" games, Sharpton has.

Dean? Come on now, how much more pissed would you be if Kucinich struck a strategic deal with Dean?! I'd have lost my mind and probably tried to call Kucinich directly!

Kerry? Do they even speak? I don't honestly know since neither has ever even mentioned the other that I can recall.

Clark? Uh, no, not with the Balkans hanging over his head.

Gep? The man has seriously neglected his elected duties, something Dennis is absolutely determined NOT to do and will not condone in any way shape or form.

Who does that leave open to and friendly enough to assist each other in problem Iowa caucuses?

[Terwilliger]

30. I appreciate your reasons why he wouldn't support those others...

why Edwards???

He GOT to overcome that somehow, doesn't he?

Overcome it? Is he strident, or is he steadfast in his beliefs?

Dennis had convinced me that the support I could give was his because he stayed true to what are truly Democratic ideals. Now he's playing nice with one candidate or another...but NONE of them are align with Dennis on most any issue. Why shouldn't he have just changed his positions from the start? Hell, if he sounded like Edwards and Gephardt and Kerry, he'd be right in the thick of it. He didn't do that, and now he's playing games with the people who did support him.

[goodhue]

45. because Edwards runs on hope for the future

not anger over the past. Edwards runs on working-class issues and is expressly anti-elite on the stump. Go to C-SPAN and watch Edwards Friday at the Nodaway Diner in Greenfield, Iowa. Maybe that will clue you in the the fact that Edwards is an economic populist with a hopeful vision of raising up the majority of Americans that have been left behind.

Plus they like each other. They are friends. Birds of a feather . . .

http://www.c-span.org/

Democratic presidential candidate Sen. John Edwards (D-NC) makes a campaign stop at the Nodaway Diner in Greenfield, Iowa.
1/16/2004: GREENFIELD, IA: 40 min.

[bearfartinthewoods]

27. how about a voice at the convention?

without some delegates they could easy shut him out.

[Terwilliger]

31. what voice?

How does "Cancel NAFTA" and "single-payer" healthcare" and "get the troops out of Iraq" play at a convention where no one else agrees?

I've asked this many times and no one has answered...what does Dennis think he's going to get by compromising like this?

[stickdog]

10. Does anybody really believe this compromise will bring Dennis victory?

[LWolf]

11. The big point here,

that must be absolutely clear, is that Dennis is not compromising anything.

He is not compromising his platform. He is not compromising his agenda. He is not compromising his vote/s in congress. He isn't endorsing anyone for president but Dennis Kucinich. He isn't giving anything away.

He is using strategy to counteract the "invisibility" factor he has enjoyed with the media, to stay viable as the primaries progress.

[stickdog]

18. And if all DK gets out of this is an Edwards bounce?

What will you say then?

[LWolf]

44. I don't think an Edwards bounce

hurts Dennis at this point.

This collaboration is just for today, just for Iowa. It isn't an endorsement or a whole-campaign strategy. If Dennis doesn't get a bounce, he's not going to get any less than he would have, anyway.

Both men getting a bounce helps the primaries, imo, keeping the race wider and not allowing the presumption of a winner before I ever get to cast a vote.

[wyldwolf]

17. Dennis is doing the right thing

Purists be damned. "Purists" are the downfall of everything.

[stickdog]

23. Yes, the typical DK supporter is 100% anti-purist!

That's why they love him so -- because he's such a cynical, hardboiled backroom-dealing politico! :eyes:

[diamondsoul]

28. You know something, stick?

I've tried to be respectful of our differences, but you came to this thread just to add to my upset and act like someone I never really took you for.

Thanks for the reminder of just how nasty people can be.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

29. I am a typical DK supporter and I'm no purist

Kucinich is an elected official, he knows how to play the game - and come out with his principles intact.

[goodhue]

48. me too

most of the purists i know ignorantly support dean
they don't own tvs or read the paper, so they really don't know much about the issues

[WilliamPitt]

34. You should get off the computer and go to Iowa

or New Hampshire or New Mexico or anywhere where the supporters are actually working. Five minutes worth of face time and you'd understand how shrill you sound.

[DemBones DemBones]

26. Don't let it get to you, diamondsoul. If people give up on

Dennis this easily, their commitment wasn't that strong to begin with. I read one post at the forum (from the same "Iowa college student" who posted on the Dean blog) and it's obvious that he is very immature and naive, and unwilling to think this through. He's even talking about Dennis getting "trial lawyer money." :eyes: Let him go rant at his caucus tonight, maybe the politically experienced folks there will educate him. He is very unlikely to convince anyone except other emotionally immature, politically naive, single-issue voters like himself.

Dennis has done nothing unethical and that's what matters. Edwards is a good man even if he did vote for the war. Sure, I think they all should have listened to us, but remember that they were being told all sorts of convincing lies that were supposedly "highly classified intelligence."

I can help some tonight at the forum. See you there!

[Terwilliger]

32. the others aren't "good men" too?

Why did he pick Edwards?

[LWolf]

51. Well, let's examine that question.

I think the reason why he wouldn't pick Dean is obvious.

and Gep...same base, if you're looking at labor supporters. As a matter of fact, when it comes to labor support, I don't know why any would support Gep when they compare his stance and attendance record to Dennis'; Dennis actually shows up in the house to cast votes. I'm not really sure about this one.

Sharpton...might not give him enough to make 15% anyway.

Clark...ditto.

Lieberman? Do you really see any common ground there?

Kerry would have been a good choice; but he's already leading. The idea is to keep it closer, not give the leader more of a lead.

[tishaLA]

38. It is my understanding that this decision involves two factors

1. DK and Edwards don't have supporters from the same "pool" of caucus-goers. It is not like candidates who are ideologically similar, where it could undermine their base support.

2. They like each other personally, desipte disagreements on the issues.

I think it is a reasonable, pragmatic decision that is potentially mutually beneficial for DK and Edwards. That is how they see it, too.

[Sugarbleus]

42. I'm really bummed at what I'm hearing at the pre caucus

yakkity yaks this far. I wish Kucinich could win. He seems to be the only person interested in REAL change for this government.
I'm extremely depressed. The rest of the candidates are probably nice people but they are still holding on to politics as usual and that's what I'd hoped to see fade away. Getting Bush outta DC is a great thing but I'm feeling hopeless for those of us at the "bottom" of the food chain here in amerika.
Kucinich, in the final analysis, comes the closest to helping ALL the people. I almost went for the "bait" with the others but now I see DK is the only one who meets my expectations for a great nation.
I'm going to bed, screw it all.

[diamondsoul]

53. And you now also join the ranks of

my all-time favorite DUers! Thank you so much for seeing things as they really are!

[goodhue]

47. I feel for you

but please don't let the purists get you down.

This strategy is the best thing that could happen to Dennis at this point. Folks who complain generally don't understand or don't care how caucuses work and/or don't understand or don't care that Edwards is in fact a hope-based economic populist.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

54. Have you noticed that the people who are getting

snarkiest about this and bewailing DK's "betrayal of his ideals" weren't Kucinich supporters to begin with?

As I said, it all seems like fake indignation to me, as when the Republicans slam the Democrats for not approving a conservative black/Latino judicial nominee. My grandmother had an Old Country proverb, "If you want to beat a dog, you can always find a stick."

[IndianaGreen]

57. Good observation! It is the non-DK supporters that are bent out of shape

All of a sudden, the candidate that was irrelevant and was running a "vanity campaign," as Ted Koppel described it, now has relevancy and the potential to push Edwards over the top.

[dpbrown]

59. You're correct again

This is the essence of "fake" indignation.

Fear Ends
Hope Begins
Kucinich 2004

Dan Brown
Saint Paul, Minnesota

[dpbrown]

55. Number Four and Five make a deal in Iowa only to get some power

And this means nothing else.

People are really getting weird about this.

As the press release stated, this just means that in precincts in Iowa in which either Kucinich or Edwards aren't able to make the 15%, they'll swing their delegates to whomever is higher.

This is politics - hello, these people are politicians.

If done effectively, Kucinich will gain delegates he wouldn't have gotten, and keep them from the frontrunners.

This is a very smart thing.

I like it. Thank you, Dennis, for doing a very smart political thing here.

This reinforces my already incredibly well-founded belief that you'll know exactly how to deal with the Congress to get your plans enacted.

[Desertrose]

58. diamondsoul...I totally understand how you feel...I feel

the exact same way!


(I can't post all my thoughts right now - had an eye exam and pupils are totally dilated & can't see a darn thing!)

But I do share your frustration....as one who deals on a daily basis with all the Kucinich bias...you eventually just reach a point of.......screaming ,crying or tearing out your hair...

Hang in dear diamondsoul.....
:hug:
:loveya:
DR