Does anyone see the Kucinich/Edwards deal as a slap at Dean?

[beaconess]

After all, Kucinich probably has more credibility as an anti-war candidate than any of them, even Dean, since he is the only candidate who actually voted no when given the chance. It's one thing for Clark, Dean, Moseley Braun and Sharpton to say they would were against the war, but Kucinich is the only one who stepped up to the plate and, as such, deserves a lot of respect on the issue. (and I say this as an Edwards supporter).

Given this, it's a little surprising that he would cut this deal with a candidate who voted for the war rather than swing his supporters to a purportedly anti-war candidate. Could it be that Kucinich is not all that impressed with Dean's anti-war props? Otherwise, why would he pass him over in favor of Edwards?

[wtmusic]

1. Could be a boost to Dean

If Dennis' hardcore antiwar people defect

[AnAmerican]

9. If they defected, it would NOT be to Dean

Dean is not anti-war.

[w4rma]

28. Only Kucinich is anti-war. It is my understanding that Edwards=Lieberman

on Iraq war policy.

[spooky3]

32. did Lieberman vote against the $87 billion? Edwards did.

[w4rma]

39. Okay. **Almost** equal. (n/t)

[youngred]

33. not really

and Anti-War is one position among many.

[goodhue]

2. yes

Kucinich is not all that impressed with Dean's anti-war props.

[Shrek]

3. Perhaps he's taking a broader view

There are plenty of issues besides the war. Unless it's some kind of litmus test or a line-in-the-sand-that-cannot-be-crossed, it doesn't seem unreasonable that he'd ally with Edwards.

[spooky3]

29. that's my opinion also.

[citizen snips]

4. All the other candidates was surprised...

by this deal nobody saw it coming.

[_Jumper_]

5. Payback

Dean has been painting himself as the only "major" anti-war candidate. This is DK's chance to punish Dean for this.

[returnable]

11. You may have something there...

DK called the Doc on it many, many times, yet the rhetoric continued.

[beaconess]

19. Great point - hadn't thought of that

n/t

[polpilot]

25. He 'punished' himself and his anti-war credentials.This isn't high school.

Dean '04...

[mandyky]

6. What shocks me is that DK supporters

would support an IWR pro voter. I remember a North Carolinian who posted an excuse form letter they got from Edwards in the lead up for the war.

While I am only against the Iraq war because my gut told me shrub was lying about stuff, I could vote for Edwards. But folks that are really anti-war all the way, I don't understand, unless DKers have become part of the Stop Dean movement.

[youngred]

13. Not part of the stop dean movement

but looking at their various policy choices Dean's high NRA rating, economic, social, health and education policies are very different.

The only liberal issue Dean has is his anti-war stance (forget the civil unions, he won't do anything with that nationally and is using that as an opportunity), whereas Dennis is strictly progressive, and Edwards shares a good many of his positions

[IndianaGreen]

27. Personally, I would support Dean above Edwards

Kucinich voters are all over the map, many of them have never voted before. Regardless of what Dennis says, their votes are not transferrable in the general election. On caucus night, if they are not viable they will have to go elsewhere.

It is going to be an interesting night, but bear in mind that Iowa is unique, and that this is the first inning of a 9-inning ball game.

[LWolf]

63. In order to understand, you have to realize

that Dennis isn't a single-issue candidate, and his supporters are not single-issue voters. We don't support Dennis just because of his anti-war credentials; that is just one facet.

And we aren't looking at this strategy as support for the war; we know Dennis doesn't, and won't, support war. He's not supporting Edwards, either. He's working to improve his own standing. If Edwards were president, and Dennis in the house, he would still vote against pre-emptive war.

We want our candidate to win. We want him to get the recognition he has earned, which so far has not been forthcoming.

I am not part of any "Stop Dean" movement; but I think knocking the good Dr. back a peg is a good thing for democrats at this point. We don't crown anyone before the convention, let alone before a vote is cast. I don't want voters convinced that he's already won this early in the game. I want a real contest. And I do deeply resent the "Join us or go home, if you're not one of us you're a loser" attitude the rest of us have endured at the hands of many Dean campaigners. They've made the many other civil, intelligent, and fair Dean people hardly visible, as well.

I'll vote for the eventual nominee in November. But, IMO, a vigorous, closely contested primary gives us a stronger candidate in November.

And it is completely in Dennis' character to stay and maneuver against the odds. We've always known he wasn't going to pack it in and disappear when the going got tough.

[youngred]

7. not to mention that While Dean supported Biden-Lugar, DK voted against it

HOWEVER, it is not unreasonable nor a slap at Dean for Kucinich to be doing this for several reasons.

1. This election is bigger than one issue (though it will be an important one). The policies on other issues line up closer between Edwards and Kucinich than they do the militant moderate from vermont. Dean's anti-war stances are insecure at best and only came out after that idea became somewhat popular

2. Contrast. The idea that DK might be playing at a VP nod would make him a great ticket balance to someone like Edwards.

3. Representation. Kucinich isnt going to win any state outright, but getting some support from Edwards followers will bring him a few delegates at the convention and Kucinich's plan is to have enough representation at the convention to get his ideas into the platform at least if not make him a potential power broker at the convention.

[cprise]

41. Biden-Lugar has been done to death.

Dean came out vigorously against the war before it started.

If you're looking for purity back to the mists of time, look on another planet.

[youngred]

43. hardly

He came out against the war once he realized that was a tappable market for a presidential run.

I'm not looking for purity, I am looking for honesty. Dean was not the first to oppose the war (contrary to his NH flyers). He was not even the most vocal opponent of the war (Sharpton and Kucinich would share for that one). He is stealing a position that he feels could go well for him.

[cprise]

75. How can you 'steal' a position?

Like I said earlier, Kucinich will not recognize a victory for his ideas when he sees it... and would just assume sabotage them.

Dean won over so many people to the anti-war side, that I'd venture to guess someone like Kucinich could be facing reactionary censure and even charges of treason if it were not for his influence.

Dean is a doctor, and a civil rights advocate and someone who grew from mere fiscal responsibility to fighting for the public enterprise.

So there... :)

[candy331]

8. Yes I do. I liked Kucinich's message and could have voted for him

I just didn't think his message could get him elected at this point.I hope all that back dooring backfires and bites them all in the butt.What a cheap stunt.

[Zomby Woof]

10. I sure hope so

Kerry, Dean, and Gephardt have been leading in Iowa in a very close race. Edwards has had the greatest momentum as of late to make it an extremely close four way.

This deal helps DK with a boost in caucus votes - he has nothing to lose - and also gives Edwards a push to force the declining Gephardt out, and present another serious challenge to Dean. NH is likely to be a race between Kerry, Edwards, and Dean.

It was a good move, and if it hurts Dean, that is damn good news.

[returnable]

12. I think you're forgetting someone

"NH is likely to be a race between Kerry, Edwards, and Dean."

Wes Clark, anyone? :hi:

[Zomby Woof]

35. I think he'll be stronger in the south

Nothing against Clark - but I think his momentum will build after NH when the primaries get away from the yankees.

One thing I love about these analyses is that anyone can be right, and most certainly wrong. :-)

[Dover]

14. Has Kucinich explained his choice of Edwards to his constituents?

I saw his t.v. interview where he first said that he was "buddies" with Edwards, but never saw more on this.

[Zomby Woof]

38. This hardcore DKer needs no explanation

nt

[Clark4VotingRights]

57. Ya know, that's how I'm leaning too.

I trust DK. Edwards isn't my choice 'cause of his IWR vote.
But Dennis is high minded enough to make the right decision.
He's one of the few professional pols that I do trust.

[diamondsoul]

68. Any Kucinich supporter

who is serious needs no explanation. It's a strategic move between friends and fellow Dems, nothing more, nothing less. No compromise of values, just a strategic effort to keep the field fluid, period. If you claim to support Kucinich and don't get it, shame on you.

[loudnclear]

15. I think Kucinich's position on the war is real and deep.

I believe that Kucinich believes that Dean's position is not entirely honest. Edwards' positon on the war is also real although opposite to Kucinich's. I think Dennis respects Edwards' for being real about the war issue...althouh wrong about it.

The best possible ticket for America would be a Kucinich/Edwards' ticket but that would not get us the WH. About the only thing I hold against Edwards is his position on Iraq.

Having said all this, I do sense an atmosphere of excitement surrounding the Dem primaries that was missing until this week. I think it's great that the State of the Union address will be tomorrow. I know that Bush's speech writ.iers are pulling out all the stops...this will be Bush's major campaign speech...you can bet on it. The only thing that Dems have going for them is truth, true compassion, intelligence, and love of democracy for all people. But will that be enough to win the hearts and minds of fools?

[Sly Kal]

16. Here is what they are doing

K thinks he will get Dean's votes if he can drive Dean from the race. Many of his supporters rightly see it is a betrayal of their ideals.

[youngred]

22. hardly

but thanks for playing

[AnAmerican]

23. Ummm nice try.

DK's supporters see this as a good strategic move. Anyone who has gotten pissed and siad he will switch to Dean is merely a one issue voter who lacks a general understanding of how caucuses work.

[LWolf]

76. LOL

Dennis thinks he can drive Dean from the race? What are you smoking?

:crazy:

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

17. I heard a rumor that Willie Nelson arranged a deal with DK and Edwards

Willie took Dennis aside and said he wanted a back up plan, and did some backroom dealing with the dixie boys in Edwards' camp. Didn't I tell you people not to underestimate Willie Nelson? The man is a significant powerbroker.

[CabalBuster]

18. Yes, pure Dean hathred

I really think Dennis is acting like a spoiler and his "deal" with pro-war, patriot-act author Edwards is a slap on the face not only of Dean but to the thousands of new voters (young and old) who are part of the Dean movement. Sad, indeed.

[beaconess]

24. Add DK to the list of people picking on Dean

[youngred]

31. The only people who have a problem with this

are the Dean fans. Why??

because they've got sour grapes that what they thought was a sure backing from DK isn't going their way. Dean needs to learn that one position and a lot of anger doesn't make for a good candidate.

[cprise]

34. Worse, DK doesn't recognize when his ideas are winning

...and won't reward converts, apparently.

Also, Dean is on the short side like Dennis is, and removing height as an excuse, that may bring Dennis face to face with his failings.

[IndianaGreen]

20. Tactically it is an attempt to deny Kerry a win in Iowa

There is talk that Edwards may skip New Hampshire, where Wes Clark awaits in ambush.

Unlike Kerry and Gephardt, Edwards has run a very clean campaign. Regarding IWR, Edwards and Lieberman are the only ones with honorable positions on that fateful vote. Edwards did not do a Kerry and say that he was against the war and that is why he voted for it. Edwards did not do a Gephardt and pulled the rug from under all the other Democrats as he did when he appeared next to Bush in the Rose Garden.

Lieberman has always said that he wanted Saddam taken out, and he never pretended otherwise. While we may not disagree with Joe's views, we have to give him credit for being honest about it.

[stickdog]

51. And Dean?

He is notoriously absent in your analysis.

[IndianaGreen]

61. Kerry is leading in the latest Zogby poll, with Edwards closing the gap

Dean and Gephardt are stagnant. Since Edwards is the one with the biggest momentum, and since New Hampshire follows Iowa, it makes sense to prevent Kerry from getting a bounce from Iowa.

As a matter of fact, I don't expect a bounce from this four car wreck for any of the candidates. The media will write Iowa off as inconclusive and move on to SOTUS and NH.

[Melinda]

21. No. :-) You must be new to politics. Welcome :-)

[Clark Can WIN]

26. Of course it is, everything is a slap at Dean

the whole world is involved in a conspriacy agianst Dean.


the media
the DLC
the DNC
Terry McCauliffe
President Carter
President Clinton
those people at the MLK rally

Who have I left out?

[kerry-is-my-prez]

37. Carville, Begala, Sharpton, Rangel, Hillary, McGovern, Michael Moore,

and many, many more. Don't worry - there's lots of hate left....

[depakid]

45. That seems pretty accurate

with respect to almost all of your posts-

[Darranar]

30. His supporters would essentially be Dean supporters...

in that case.

In most places, DK isn't going to get more than 15% without joining with Edwards. Since Dean is almost certainly going to do better than Kucinich, making this deal with him would make his supporters esentially Dean supporters.

[Guaranteed]

36. It's purely strategic

The insiders know that, contrary to the polls, in the caucuses Edwards is in 4th place. Kucinich, wanting to keep the race as tight as possible amongst the front four (so none of them drop out, and have to expend more resources beating each other up), is lending his support to the one who is likely going to get the least delegates.

[Cuban_Liberal]

40. Don't be ridiculous.

Every candidate has one of these little 'scratch my back and I'll scratch yours' in caucuses where they don't have viable numbers.

[stickdog]

42. Why? Because he's pissed that another candidate has stolen his thunder.

Sure it's a petty swipe at Dean, but doesn't that reflect on Kucinich far more than it reflects on Dean?

I mean, the unabashedly unapologetic and utterly pro-Iraq War DLC-darling Edwards?

Does DK really think his supporters are that stupid?

[youngred]

44. that's a fairly laughable conclusion

but thanks for playing

[stickdog]

50. I haven't come to any conclusions. I'm currently reevaluating DK, though.

Thanks for your contributions, as well.

[youngred]

60. It has nothing at all to do with Dean "stealing his thunder"

Its smart politics.

[diamondsoul]

71. Oh bull!

Re-evaluating, WHAT? How much you hate the guy and how to be nastiest to people who love him?:eyes:

[ThirdWheelLegend]

77. I concur

TWL

[stickdog]

78. Damn. I truly don't hate Kucinich. I'm merely surprised at the way he

threw away his candidacy to help the DLC stop the only viable candidate who could legitimately make an issue out of Bush's Iraq debacle.

[ozone_man]

46. I would say yes.

Sometimes you slap the one one closest to you in ideology, class, culture, etc. Edwards, to me, is close to an opposite to Kucinich. Over $7M in campaign contributions from lawyers and lobbyists (much more by now).

http://www.opensecrets.org/industries/recips.asp?Ind=K

Voting for the Iraq war and making no apologies would seem to distance Edwards from Kucinich also.

So I have to think that DK is reacting out of some kind of proximity effect, where he can't beat the one closest to his ideology, so he has a tantrum and votes for one on the other extreme of the Democratic party.

[youngred]

48. tantrum?

closest to class and culture would edwards and kucinich not upper class Dean. Closest to ideology again would be edwards and kucinich not Dean.

look at the candidates for real

[in_cog_ni_to]

56. He has a tantrum?

Hahahahahaha! What? Are we in Kindergarten here? Dean has burned all of his bridges. What do you expect the canidates he bashed to do...make a deal with the devil? I remember the Kucinich flyer lying about Dennis. I'm sure his supporters do to.

I find the Edwards deal a little odd, but Clark isn't there so he can't deal with the man who is closest to him on the issues. If this helps beat Dean, I'm all for it.

Go, Dennis!

[youngred]

65. you're right

A Clark/Kucinich (or vice versa, but I won't hold my breath) ticket would be great I think

[in_cog_ni_to]

69. I like Dennis Kucinich!

He would be my second choice if he could win. He speaks to me too. I'm rooting for him in Iowa! :bounce:

Go, Dennis!

[LWolf]

47. Of course.

Every minute happening in the primaries is about Dean, and anything that doesn't resemble a crowd of groupies chanting his name is a slap.

And yes, Dennis has the anti-war credentials. And no, Kucinich has never pretended to be impressed with Dean's anti-war props.

The "deal," if it can be called that, is not to change his stance on the war or anything else. It isn't to applaud Edwards for the things they disagree on. It is about collaboration towards common goals: to stay alive, gain delegates, and keep the race tight. And Edwards is the obvious choice for all of those goals.

They aren't giving anything up here. They are both still competing against each other. Don't expect them to be giving any ground in the next 49.

[Astarho]

49. Not everything is about Howard Dean

And personally I think that Edwards and Kucinich are more aligned over things like economics rather then the war vote.

Could it be that Kucinich is not all that impressed with Dean's anti-war props?

It's possible, I wasn't impressed with it.

[stickdog]

54. Thanks for the irony break. (nt)

[George_Bonanza]

52. This may make Edwards my number two

Clark supporting the School of Americas (terrorists) is not good news for me.

[MoonRiver]

53. Dean has insulted and alienated people Kucinich likes and respects.

Yes, he disagrees with them on Iraq, but there's a whole lot more to a candidate than one Senate vote. I suspect Kucinich is feeling the same things about Dean a lot of us (including former Dean supporters) are feeling.

[stickdog]

58. Exactly. Kucinich feels that Dean has insulted him.

Would he even vote for Dean vs. Bush?

[youngred]

66. that's a ridiculous question

what's with the Kucinich hatred?

[MoonRiver]

70. I agree. Whether out of naivete or denseness, Dean forgot

that people, even Democratic leaders, have FEELINGS, HELLO!!

[arewethereyet]

55. do you really think he would choose Dean to deal with ?

they area not close philoisophically apart from the war. DK is not a one dimentional man, he should not be expected to act that way just to suit a few. He has a larger vision than that.

[chocolateeater]

59. No. n/t

[AP]

62. I do. It proves that the definition of liberal in this race should depend

on how you plan to fight the current upward and increasingly narrow distribution of economic, political and cultural power in America.

It tells people who want to be liberal that it's more important to have a tax plan which addresses this than it is to meet a purity test on the single issue of the IWR vote.

[nancyharris]

64. It is not at all surprising.

Congressman Kucinich could not make a deal with Congressman Gephardt or Senator Kerry or Governor Dean (who are closer to him on issues) because there is little chance that any of them would be in a “non-viable” position to switch delegates. If there is a situation were your supporters must switch anyway it might as well be in an effort to make someone else viable.

[Clark4VotingRights]

67. Oh *everything is a slap at Dean in his supporter's eyes.

He's just pissing post to the world poor poor Dean.

There, happy Dean supporters? Did that scratch the itch?

Now back off because in all honesty what Dennis Kucinich
decides to do has little to do with Howard Dean.
He's not the center of the universe (gasp).

I have all the respect in the world for Dennis Kucinich.

[creativelcro]

72. There is no deal. Lock this thread.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=138764

[diamondsoul]

73. There IS a deal.

It was an agreement reached between two frinds and Democratic Candidates. Nothing sleazy, "backroom", or secret to it and there is no "compromise" on positions. It's a ONE TIME strategic move between friendly opponents where it benefits both, period.

[TreasonousBastard]

74. Dean has nothing to do with it.

And I notice the Kucinich supporters here seem to understand this much better than some others, and generally think it's a good idea.

Curious, that.

Betcha they didn't even mention Dean's name when hashing this out.

For those of you new to all this, there are personal feuds in politics, but this isn't one of them. Petty revenge isn't taken for no good reason and when there won't be a payoff.

Edwards and Kucinich have complementary districts-- Edwards is strong in some rural ones, and Kucinich in some urban ones. By joining forces, they can raise the odds that they will be viable in some districts where alone they wouldn't be. This could get both of them a few more delegates, and keep them in the running.

It's a deal for survival, and these guys are personal friends, so it makes a lot of sense. The war isn't all that important after all when your ass is on the line. Plenty of time to deal with that after you've come up for air.

Politics is the art of the deal. Make the right deals, and the votes and money follow.