Something that bothers me about Kerry

[ldoolin]

These two positions are taken verbatim from John Kerry's campaign platform at http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/

The highest form of service is military service. America's military is having trouble recruiting and is increasingly relying on the reserves for active duty. John Kerry believes we must change that. The complicated missions we face and technologies we use depend on it. In a Kerry Administration, no university that receives federal aid will be allowed to ban the ROTC from their campus, except for religious reasons.

As President, John Kerry will ensure that every high school student in America performs community service as a requirement for graduation. This service will be a rite of passage for our nation’s youth and will help foster a lifetime of service. States would design service programs that meet their community and educational needs.


This is not a negative post but an honest question based on this candidate's own platform. How about it, Kerry supporters? Convince me why somebody who espouses such views should get my vote?

[KaraokeKarlton]

1. These are two of the reasons I don't like Kerry

I see those policy positions as pushing military service on kids and encouraging recruiters who are already pushy having more access to our impressionable youth and a violation of the rights of one of the populations most at risk for being abused. Kids also don't have a vote.

I have strong, strong oppositions to these policies.

[IndianaGreen]

4. This John Kerry is not the same John Kerry that opposed the Vietnam War

Yet, it is the Kerry of the Vietnam era that is being marketed to the voters by Kerry's campaign.

I liked the Kerry that stood up to Nixon and that saw nothing wrong in attempts to kick the ROTC program out of college campuses, ROTC is nothing but a cannon fodder program.

I don't like the Kerry that stood alongside Bush on the Iraq War Resolution.

[paulk]

49. For some people, ROTC is a chance for an education

and a career.

There was a time in my life when I was opposed to the idea of ROTC on campus - then I met my future father in law. ROTC put him through college and set him on the path to his career - meteorology - were he became one of the world's preeminent experts in his field.

ROTC is not something I chose to be involved in - but why deny others the opportunity? Or even the opportunity to become cannon fodder?

[blm]

71. There is a VERY good reason why...and one that many lefties don't realize.

Kerry knows that the military needs a balanced viewpoint. It has become increasingly rightwing in its pov because the ROTC programs have been shut out of many left leaning campuses.

What Kerry is proposing will maintain a balance of influence in an area that is sorely neglected yet much needed...the military.

[evil_orange_cat]

12. I agree... but these are just two MORE reasons ;)

sigh...

[mb7588a]

48. What? You didn't do community service in high school?

Shame on you. I did and still do more community service than homework. I volunteer 2 weeks per year, and one weekend per year at a camp for disabled adults and children. My high school required 20 hours of community service. When I graduated I figured I had around 2000. Not kidding. 20 hours, which is the norm for these kinds of programs, really is nothing. Most high school students work for 25 per week.


You volunteer for ROTC. This is pushing nothing. I know a lot of people who are upset they can't get ROTC at smaller state schools.

[KaraokeKarlton]

56. No, I've never been convicted of a crime

only people who get convicted of a crime have to do community service. I'm no criminal, thanks, and I'd rather not have America's kids treated like they are either.

My entire family volunteers, though. I'm sure you've heard of that before, right? That's when you donate your free time and energy for a good cause that you believe in out of the goodness of your heart, not because John Kerry told you to.

Thanks for playing....next!

[ldoolin]

69. That must have slipped in sometime in the 1990s...

...along with school uniforms, metal detectors, strip searches, drug sniffing dog patrols of the lockers, surveillance cameras, and urinalysis as a requirement for playing school sports.

We sure didn't have to do anything like that in school in the late 70s/early 80s. And to be honest, this is the first time I've ever heard that there are schools right now making community service a requirement. To be fair, Kerry's suggestion to make community service a requirement in school nationwide does sound a whole lot less onerous than some of those other things I've mentioned.

To understand what's going on, I refer the interested reader to William Strauss and Neil Howe. They seem to approve of all this, but at least they understand what's going on and can explain it well. The younger generation is being prepared to be a good order-taking, conformist, "soldier" type generation. I don't think that's a particularly healthy thing.

[La_Serpiente]

2. The first one bothers me as well

Some Universities have sued the federal government because they are threatning to withold moneies from the universities. Why? They won't allow military recruiters and ROTC programs on their campuses due to the Don't Ask Don't Tell Policy.

On top of that, it is also federal law that if the Universities receive federal monies, then they have to allow recruiters onto their campuses. It has only recently been enforced by the Bush administration.

There is a group of law professors and law students at Yale who are suing the federal government because they are infringing on the free speech of the universities. Why? Well, the universities believe in civil rights and they feel that the federal government is undermining the rights of GLBT in the military. In turn, the universities ban military recruiters.

But Kerry wants to give GLBT people the opportunity to serve in the military. So why would he have to block their funding if the universities already got what they wanted?

But I can see where you are coming from. It is just the fact he put the literature in there. I don't think there would be that much of a problem since the main sticking point is the rights of GLBT in the military, and Kerry is going to fix that.

And on the second point, I agree with that. That is just my opinion.

edit: run on sentence

[savistocate]

3. Outrageous

Kennedy set srvice as an ideal but voluntary, This required to graduate business stinks--can imagine the ways it would be corrupted too by trade-offs waivers buyoffs.

Added tohis buddy Republicans James BakerIII and Schwarzenazi.

[WilliamPitt]

5. Well

ROTC allows a lot of kids who can't afford college to be able to get a degree through the service. Normally this is a good situation - my father did it - but when a maniac like Bush gets in, these kids get shafted. That does not make ROTC inherently evil. Banning ROTC from campuses was a big thing in the 60s. Personally, I have no problem with them.

As for the second bit, it sounds like private school. Most private high schools have a service requirement to be fulfilled before graduation. Do I think this should be federally mandated? No. Is it a good idea for kids to do community service? Yeah. 'Community service' does not mean military service. In fact, it usually means soup kitchens and food banks and spending time at nursing homes.

[KaraokeKarlton]

7. Here's why he's wrong

I don't have a problem with ROTC being there for kids who want it, but there shouldn't be any pressure on kids. I have a problem with Kerry implying that he would aggressively encourage and recruit kids to join. That's not cool. Let them know it's available, but don't be pushing it.

Mandating kids to do community service in order to get their high school diploma is just plain wrong. Community service is punitive by nature, and just because it'd be kids in school and stuffed into education requirements for graduation wouldn't make it anything more than punitive. Volunteer work is great and should always be encouraged, but the second you make it mandatory it's no longer voluntary. This poses all kinds of problems. First of all, the second you force kids to do something, they stop liking doing it. I certainly wouldn't want an angry, resentful and bitter kid keeping my grandmother company in the retirement home. I have 3 teenagers, so I'm pretty aware of how teenagers respond to this kind of thing. On top of that, you have many teens who have jobs, participate in band, sports, clubs, activities and who actually want to have social relationships with their peers. They already have pretty demanding schedules and requirements and dumping something else on an already overtaxed youth being forced to grow up too fast is not something I approve of. On top of that, teenagers already do a huge amount of the volunteer work in the community simply because they want to. It would be dumb to mandate community service because kids are already doing their parts.

[SahaleArm]

9. I guess the question is why shouldn't the Armed forces recruit?

I don't have a problem with ROTC being there for kids who want it, but there shouldn't be any pressure on kids. I have a problem with Kerry implying that he would aggressively encourage and recruit kids to join. That's not cool. Let them know it's available, but don't be pushing it.

Should it exist in a passive state and hope the office corp is staffed? I guess it boils down to what 'recruit means'. Is putting up an informational booth and advertising considered recruiting?

[KaraokeKarlton]

14. Not aggressively

and that is the impression Kerry's policy leaves me with, that he wants to recruit more aggressively.

[SahaleArm]

16. What does aggressively mean - More booths or advertising?

There's not a whole lot more they can do; in the end it's still voluntary.

[KaraokeKarlton]

18. I'm not going to get into a stupid pissing contest with you

I stated clearly why I think it's wrong. I'd suggest that if you actually agree with the policy that you actually make the effort to defent it rather than contribute mere trite one-liners.

[SahaleArm]

23. My point was it's easy to condemn Kerry - But neither of us have any

idea by what he meant.

[WilliamPitt]

42. I didn't see where he advocates aggressive recruitment by ROTC

[KaraokeKarlton]

57. Thats what he implies on his website, but not specifically ROTC

it was military recruitment in general, and there was some strange allusion to some kind of mandatory corps that involved security and policing. It made me quite nervous, to be frank with you. I'm surprised you don't know all this, Will...this is the guy you're supporting for president. I'm surprised.

I did go and look at it when I first heard about this hairbrained idea. Most of it stinks. There is the college in exchange for service on a voluntary basis, and an optional service for the elderly that earns them something...those are good ideas, but the rest of it just plain sucks.

[Scott Lee]

19. ROTC can be a trap for future dead soldiers fighting for Corpos

You've heard it before. "Be all that you can be". In some cases, that means "dead", and if you don't believe me, hold a seance and ask over 400 recently killed US soldiers.

The US imperialist war machine has several soldier attracting mechanisms in it's arsenal, but two of the most effective are ROTC and the National Guard. The lure? Money. Especially if you are in the lower economic stratae. I cannot tell you how many people I have met who went into the military specifically because they got a good deal ($$$) to do so. Unfortunately, with the rise of the Bush Reich, it's a far more dangerous proposition than ever meaning there is a good chance you will end up in a far off place taking a bullet for BushCo's prestige.

Another trick they pull is High School recruitment. This is big in my area. In fact several schools are noted by the particular branch of the military that they cater to. Down the road is the High School known as the "Air Force" school. A few miles away is the Navy school. And so on. And guess who ends up in most of these programs? Poorer kids of color, be they Black or Hispanic - being trotted off with some money and a promise of travel to go die once again for the rich man's wars. We have lots of military funerals around here in Spanish these days.

So here's my middle finger to John Kerry pandering to the harvesters of death in our schools and promoting the lure of the future dead soldier. I like the community service idea (which I did plenty of as a kid, and no not because a judge told me to), but when I hear this weeks John Kerry pushing for all this military solution for the individual's economic straights, I want to puke on my keyboard.

[IndianaGreen]

54. "The harvesters of death" are even advertising to the Boy Scouts

According to my 10-year old nephew, the Army has ads in a Boy Scout publication he reads. "Harvesters of death," indeed!

[welshTerrier2]

6. There are Many Good Things About Kerry

but these positions are not among them ...

I am sick and tired of the Federal government attaching unreasonable requirements to programs it funds ...

Call me kooky, but why not have the Feds support education because it's good for the country ... why muddy the waters with an ROTC requirement ...

If our military is used responsibly, ROTC should have no problem recruiting those who seek to offer their services to the military ... to argue that the military is having trouble recruiting fails to acknowledge that the military has been used for some pretty inappropriate purposes ... the solution is not to hurt academic institutions by depriving those who run and attend them of the right to decide whether military recruiting on campus is appropriate ... the solution is to stop sending our troops on PNAC adventures around the globe ... the real solution is to provide better vet benefits ... the real solution is to provide vets returning from Iraq with better healthcare ... Kerry makes these other points very effectively ... but he's dead wrong on making ROTC programs a requirement ...

And mandatory service prior to graduation? there's already plenty of incentive to "broaden one's credentials" for those planning to go on to college ... to mandate service to the state smacks of conscription ... to encourage the young to be idealistic and want to help their country in some way is great ... to make it a requirement that must be met or punishment will be meted out misses the point completely ...

maybe these positions are designed to help Kerry win votes with the general public ... but I think Kerry's wrong here on both counts ...

[BackDoorMan]

8. They shouldn't...did you need me to tell you or all of DU?

[DrFunkenstein]

10. Kerry Sets Up A Non-Military Service Program To Pay For College

You missed that part, which is especially great news for those just trying to get out of the inner-city. And teenagers can work summers led by AmeriCorps to earn college grants. And old-timers can tutor kids or help sick and infirm seniors to earn a grant for their grandchildren or any kid they pick.

Or the part where Americans can volunteer to pass on to their neighbors reliable information about disaster preparation and work as assistants for First Responders during emergency situations.

An honest question would have mentioned these parts FROM THE SAME SPEECH.

[KaraokeKarlton]

15. And people don't take issues with those parts of his policy

It's the bad parts of it that quite a few people don't like. You can cover up shit with poseys if you want to, but that doesn't miraculously turn the shit into poseys.

[ldoolin]

24. I happen to agree with those two

But the two I posted are the ones I have a problem with. I am a big supporter of expanding non-military, voluntary service options like AmericaCorps, so long as they remain voluntary. What I am noting with Kerry (and also with some others like John McCain) is they aren't willing to draw a line between non-military service and the military, and that bit about requiring mandatory community service to graduate from high school scares me. It looks too much like preparing kids to accept a military draft once they graduate.

Part of the reason I would like to see AmericaCorps and other non-military service expanded is because they will keep impressionable kids *out* of the military if they know that other options are available to pay for college or get a job after high school. I'm sure that if high school students knew that they could spend the summer fighting forest fires instead of going to boot camp and being cannon fodder for Bush in Iraq, most would choose the former over the latter, especially since the former actually delivers the adventure and rite of passage that the military promises but doesn't deliver. Correct me if I'm wrong but that doesn't look like Kerry's motivation here.

Regarding ROTC, many colleges made the decision to remove ROTC during the Vietnam era, and there is currently a right wing push to have it reinstated and to cut off federal funding for those which won't. I do note that Kerry says he will make an exception for religious reasons (which, I suppose, would mean that Mennonite colleges would not be required to have ROTC), but I could really see ROTC going over like a lead brick at, say, the Evergreen State College in Washington state. There are many other valid reasons why a college would not want ROTC there, not just religious. One of them is that, simply put, teaching college students to "kiiilll" is not considered by many to be an appropriate use of an institution of higher education. I'd like to see both ROTC and military recruiter access to public schools phased out entirely.

[DrFunkenstein]

33. The High School Community Service Leads To AmeriCorps, Not Military

Here is the passage in question:

"So I propose that all high school students should also be required to do community service before they graduate. Today, the state of Maryland, many school districts around the country, and many high schools - including some here in New Hampshire - already require service. They have proven its worth - and shown that it is not make-work. Rather it can make a difference in many lives and enrich all our communities. Communities can design these efforts to meet their own specific needs whether it is providing after-school activities for younger kids, tutoring them in reading, spending time with seniors, or helping to clean up and renew neighborhoods. There is a world of work for students to do and a nation of extraordinary volunteer organizations ready and eager to recruit them.

States and local communities will design their own service requirements that make it significant without being onerous. For instance, Maryland's requirement is seventy-five hours over the course of high school and local educators have discretion to implement this in ways that meet student needs. Nothing in this plan will prevent young people who need to work to save for college from being able to work. Certainly fifty to a hundred hours in the four years of high school doesn't seem too much to ask from young people as they take on the responsibility of being a citizen. We can and will assist local communities in shaping High School Service plans to fit what they seek to accomplish - and then we must assure sufficient resources to put those plans in place.

So, High School Service should be mandatory for students, but it should not be another unfunded mandate from Washington. Again and again, the federal government has issued demands and then left states like New Hampshire with the burden of paying for them. This won't be another one of those times. I propose that the federal government fully fund this service requirement - or states will not have to implement it.

http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/speeches/spc_2003_0519.html

Kerry sees the military as one branch on a tree of public service, just as the WWII era viewed it. Kerry doesn't think community service is preparing kids to be cannon fodder, and I'm surprised you can read the speech and still suggest it. Here is Kerry on the military (the part you left out):

As President, I will seek to strengthen our armed forces by recruiting more active duty personnel at a time when the military is having retention and recruiting problems. The difficult missions we face and the complex technologies we depend on demand that. And when so many reservists are also firefighters and police officers, relying exclusively on activating them during a time of crisis can actually weaken our security. President Bush has not led in recruiting young people into the military. I will. And as President, I will modernize our GI Bill benefits. Those who risk their lives for America deserve the best chance to learn more and earn a better life for their families.

[ldoolin]

52. Now that you mention it

I have a problem with this statement too:

President Bush has not led in recruiting young people into the military. I will.

[DrFunkenstein]

53. Recruiting Is Not Drafting People

PS - Way to ignore the rationale he actually provides for saying this.

[ldoolin]

55. It's probably not worth debating with you...

But the issue here is the very idea that we need more young people in the military to begin with, regardless of whether they are recruited or drafted. The Pentagon budget needs to be cut, cut, cut, and the military is an authoritarian institution that is not recommended for young people to join in the first place.

If you want an honest debate, fine, but if you just want to post smart ass remarks, this conversation ends here.

[oasis]

58. A Bush victory in2004=expansion of PNAC=draft. Count on it. (eom)

[KaraokeKarlton]

59. That is one of the comments that made me nervous too

he seems too gung ho to want to push kids to join and I don't like it one bit.

[oasis]

11. Heaven forbid that America's young people would get to do something real

in the lives.

[evil_orange_cat]

13. hey it's a free country... go to China with that crap...

we don't need to take a step towards mandatory military service...

[oasis]

17. How do think this got to be a "free country"?

[Forkboy]

20. I dunno...how?

[oasis]

25. Americans making personal sacrifices for the good of America.

[Forkboy]

27. did they choose to make those sacrifices?

[oasis]

29. Lucky for you and I they did.

[Forkboy]

32. Yes

we are lucky they CHOSE to.

[oasis]

37. When you are a called up for jury duty do you refuse to go?

[Forkboy]

38. I go

but they dont call minors for jury duty.

Next...

[oasis]

44. Jurors are summoned, and those who have a sense of public duty

serve. If not them, who would serve?

If given the opportunity, most Americans will do the right thing.

[Forkboy]

45. Besides the fact that this is totally irelevant to the conversation

you're actually disagreeing with Kerry.

He is REQUIRING service,not giving people an opportunity.

[oasis]

50. Young people having no sense of duty IS relevant to my original post #11.

I'm not advocating Kerry's PROPOSAL, but it's not a bad idea.

[welshTerrier2]

28. Which Do You Argue For ??

this: Americans making personal sacrifices for the good of America.

or this: Americans being made to make personal sacrifices for the good of America.

[oasis]

30. Let's provide our young people the opportinity to make their own decisions

by not limiting their exposure.

[welshTerrier2]

36. what does this mean ??

are you suggesting that the government sponsor free travel for high school seniors so they can see the world?

and what is this nonsense mr. kerry put out about allowing exemptions from ROTC for religious institutions only ... i mean, does he think that only those who object to ROTC on religious grounds have a case to ban it? what about those who believe there is excessive militarism in the country ... what about those who believe that war or violence is wrong ... shouldn't they have rights to decide too? or only "religious institutions" ??? what about those who believe that ROTC does nothing but act as a police force for vested commercial interests overseas? should they not have a say in the matter???

i ask you again ... are you arguing for mandated service and "strings attached" to education funding for ROTC programs or do you believe that while both ROTC and other service may be valuable to the country and the individual, they should be voluntary? your cryptic answer did not clarify where you stand on the issue ...

to talk about national pride or national service is fine ... i, for one, do not want the message we send to the young to be one of mandated service ...

[oasis]

40. I'd rather have volunteers, of course. My original post #11 is in response

to those who would let others step foward and serve their community or their country while they sat at home playing with their computers.
It was meant to be a criticism of the kind of attitude that I'm seeing in so much of our young people today.

[welshTerrier2]

43. so you disagree with Kerry ?

because it sounds like Kerry is arguing for mandatory service ...

i'm glad you would prefer volunteerism and i have no problem with your assessment that many may not have a good attitude about helping their country or their community ...

but for me, the issue is that it has to be voluntary ... because Kerry seems to argue otherwise, I strongly disagree with him ...

[oasis]

46. I'm not advocating Kerry's position on that particular issue.

[KaraokeKarlton]

61. that's a fallacy

I have 4 children, 3 of them teenagers and they don't have that kind of attitude. I treat them with respect, listen to what they think, believe and feel and raise them to be able to form their own opinions and be confident enough in themselves to make their own decisions. Kids have become less responsible because adults like John Kerry keep telling them what they have to do instead of informing them of their choices, discussing their options and trusting them to have sense enough to make the right choices for themselves. This is how you prepare a child to become an adult. If all you do is bark orders at them they won't do anything in between the orders being barked because they haven't been taught how to do things for themselves. That is NOT the way we should be preparing our children to become responsible adults who are able to make choices when they leave home.

[oasis]

64. "fallacy"That's your opinion which is drawn from your personal interaction

with your family. It's only a "fallacy" as it applies to what you may have experienced.

Apparently, my life experience is different than yours. I can only speak for the lack of direction that I have observed in young people during the last decade.

[KaraokeKarlton]

60. yes, let them make their own decisions

by not forcing them to do something against their will.

[JohnKleeb]

21. oasis my memory and I am not sure on this

is that community service is already a presquite for graduation in many states. Not sure or 100% but I am pretty sure I need to a certain amount to graduate, and on the ROTC thing, I disagree with him on it but ROTC to my knowledge is originally a democratic program. I am not in agreement with him on these two issues but I really don't find him particulary bad and I know he has other views that are quite good.

[oasis]

26. Each person must follow their own sense of duty. I can't see the harm in

performing service in the community or in our armed sevices under a responsible Democratic administration.

[JohnKleeb]

31. I dont mind it honestly that much

Kerry is a good guy IMO.

[welshTerrier2]

22. funny term "free country"

one would think it would mean free to choose whether to serve the country or not ...

one would think that we would not require high school students in a "free country" to pay for their education with mandated service ...

and to answer your question, one of the main reasons we have a "free country" is that many chose to serve VOLUNTARILY ... or do you think that only when we required people to serve was anything accomplished ...

[DrFunkenstein]

34. The Fascists Make Us Take Gym Class Too!!!

God forbid someone teach the Playstation generation the value of commuity service.

[welshTerrier2]

39. hmmm ...

sorry dr. f but kerry is way off on this one ... don't get me wrong, i'm still considering supporting him ...

i have no problem teaching "the Playstation generation" about the value of community service ... in fact i'm all for instilling these positive values in the young ... and the old too ... but Kerry's position does not suggest we should be "teaching" about community service ... he's arguing we should be "requiring" it ...

that's the difference your post failed to acknowledge ...

[oasis]

41. Sign them up for Baskins and Robbins taste testers.

[KaraokeKarlton]

63. Read post number 40

Since you're a teacher there's some insight in that post that you should look at...especially if you agree with this stupid idea of Kerry's. There's a reason more and more kids are getting more and more idle in the mind, and policies like Kerry's is part of the reason why.

[George_Bonanza]

35. To clarify some things

Dr. Funk has already pointed out that Kerry is not forcing poor kids to become bullet shields in foreign countries just to get college education. There is already a service through AmeriCorps that can get you a four-year education by giving 2 years of service. As an alternative, those willing to join the ROTC program (which is not necessarily a purely military application program; it describes itself as a leadership course than can applied to things like business, politics, etc.) On their website, the ROTC boasts having such wide participants such as politicians like Powell, to actors such as James Earl Jones.

Maryland, and possibly other states, have very undemanding service prerequisites to graduation. It's usually in the range of a 100 hours for an entire high school career. That averages out to about 30 minutes a week, which averages out to about less than 5 minutes day. Slave labour and cotton pickin' kids, eh Karoake Karlton?

[quaker bill]

47. To further clarify some things

I am a big believer in service. I am also a big believer in it being strictly voluntary.

We punish petty criminals by imposed community service.

The spiritual good to be gained by community service comes from it being a gift of the heart, not a graduation requirement. This is a lame idea the pretends to be something that it is not. It is nothing more than a 'community building photo op'. More 'we have a program for that' government from the master.

In so far as ROTC, I am profoundly unimpressed. I would rather there be much less of it and much less call for it anywhere. Why don't we just impose ROTC where it is unwanted? Surely that will bring the country much closer together. Social engineering...yeah that's a concept, right.

[DrFunkenstein]

51. This Program Is Designed To Make Kids WANT To Contribute MORE

Most kids have absolutely no idea where to turn if they want to give back to the community. This program is designed to make kids WANT to contribute MORE, not a slave labor camp designed to turn them off from helping out their neighbors.

[oasis]

62. It seems like a real opportunity to meet people with a worthwhile purpose.

[quaker bill]

68. Yes

But, there are so many better ways to get about it.

[quaker bill]

67. Then it would be rather simple to fix

Just get rid of the graduation requirement bit.

Democracy is not gained at gunpoint.

The desired spirit of service to the community is not gained by a compulsory government program.

This proposal is nothing more than 'feel good politics' and photo op social service. Many programs are intended or 'designed' to create some social good. The proposal is a great example of classic ineffective - flowing skirt - patchouli oil liberalism. It is 'we have a program for this' government. They will count the service hours and say, 'see what a wonderful thing we have done'. There is a far better way to accomplish this laudable goal, but it doesn't 'sound bite' quite as well.

Once again, I have no problem with kids doing service to their community. In fact, I create opportunities for this to happen with a portion of my spare time, by doing service and inviting others. When they choose to come freely, they have a great time and are often inspired to a greater committment to service.

I compare this to the program at my daughters school, where the kids are required to do 30 hours of community service. All of them do their 30 but very very few do 31 of their free will. In the carpool, when the discussion comes up it is more of a comparison of who did the coolest (easiest) thing to get their 30.

It is a 'well intended' program that creates exactly the wrong human dynamic.

[bluestateguy]

65. Kerry

If you take federal money you have to play by their rules. If your school does not want an ROTC presence then skip the federal funding. Nobody is being ordered to have an ROTC program.

As for the service requirement, I think that is something that should be left to the discretion of the states and local school districts rather than the federal government. Still, I hardly think something like that is alone a reason to not support Kerry.

[oasis]

66. "If there were no reason to bash Kerry it would soon become necessary to

invent one" ---Voltaire.

I agree whole-heartedly with your last sentence.

[sandnsea]

70. It would be left to the school district

The federal govenment makes requirements that schools provide equal education, disabilities, minorities, women, etc. But when it comes to programs, the funding is offered if the school district wants to implement it. This would be a Civics class with service as a component. Even Vermont has these programs in some of their high schools.

[KaraokeKarlton]

72. Kerry's plan sounds like a thinly veiled goal of militarizing America

When I first read the details of his plan I was very put off by the ominous wording he uses. Any way you slice it, his words indicate a militarized nation, and I don't like it one bit.

I don't think America's kids should be enlisted to defend their community in the face of attack or emergency. They are the ones we're supposed to be protecting for God's sakes!

Here is the online pdf file of his plan. Take special care in noticing the constant use of military terms.

http://www.johnkerry.com/pdf/johnkerry_service_fact_sheet.pdf

Kerry supporters, you can vote for whoever you want to vote for, but don't get all indignant when I say I don't like your candidate. Don't jump to the conclusion that the only reason I don't like him is because I'm not aware of his policies. The fact of the matter is, my knowledge of his policies is exactly why I DON'T support him.

If I want to be forced to serve my government I'll move to Israel, thank you. Totalitarianism isn't my cup of tea, and Kerry's tone and vision reeks of that mentality. That's my same concern with a Clark presidency. Our civilian population should not be militarized.

One more thing...it seems that many Kerry supporters who have posted on this thread weren't even aware of this policy Kerry has. I find it rather ironic that it's Dean supporters (who some claim are misinformed and don't pay attention to policy) who apparently are more informed about Kerry's policies than some of his own supporters are.

If voters are going to vote based on fear, we will lose. I am very concerned that many of the people on here have chosen to support either Kerry or Clark simply because both have a military background and it would "look good" running against Bush. Hogwash. If anyone did choose either of these candidates for that reason I really hope the hell you've looked deeper into their policies and are informed on what your choice actually intends to do. I am really beginning to suspect that the loud cries from some of the military candidates' supporters that Dean supporters have been "fooled" or "don't know their candidate" might be going on because those individuals haven't really researched their own guy and are assuming that Dean supporters have been equally as shallow in their candidate choice.

Image and appearances aren't going to win this one, folks...meat and potatoes issues are...and this policy of Kerry's sucks, period.

[curse10]

74. LoL- Yes Kerry wants to militarize America

and he supports child labor! :eyes:

[KaraokeKarlton]

75. Kerry said he doesn't want to be president, you know

I saw it on ABC last night. I'd say he meant it too with how lousy he's running his campaign.

[K-W]

73. Mandatory service I dont like, ROTC I hate

An education should be something that everyone gets without having to be subjected to military training and possible military action for.

[curse10]

76. I am under the impression that Universities already receive funding for

having the ROTC on campus.

Northeastern University, where I attend law school, refused to allow the ROTC on until recently- they needed government money. So I don't think this is a new idea from Kerry. It's not my favorite position of his, but it's not going to change my mind about him.