When did we stop being a party of economic issues?

[Zynx]

Those have always been the winners for us. People support progressive taxation and equal economic opportunity. We instead get bogged down in these cultural issues that cut against us and divide us against eachother. Why don't we focus on what made our party in the first place?

A lot on the extreme left have to recognize that we can't campaign on our cultural stances because we will lose. Isn't it good enough to win and then advance personal freedom through the courts? You have to win in order to press that agenda. You can't win on these stances during the campaign.

[htuttle]

1. It happened when corporate money took over the party

Remember when 'class war' didn't used to be a dirty word? Now they don't even address the CONCEPT of financial class, like it doesn't matter anymore, or that you're some kind of Communist for even thinking in those terms.

Meanwhile, the rich prosecute their side of the class war with impunity.

on edit:

I'm going to take issue with one of your statements, however. You said, "A lot on the extreme left have to recognize that we can't campaign on our cultural stances because we will lose. "

Now wait a minute! The 'extreme left' that I know is ALL ABOUT economic issues. I'm talking about issues like a Living Wage, Universal Health Insurance and public schools. We're the ones that get accused of 'class war mentality' when we bring these things up!

All that social issue/wedge issue crap is driven by moderate 'positioning' and 'triangulation' in my opinion. Don't you dare hang that on the 'extreme left'! PETA, for example, is NOT the 'extreme left'. They are just some weird fringe group kind of off the scale.

[Zynx]

2. I'm talking about those on the extreme cultural left.

They have no idea how out of step with the country they really are.

[htuttle]

4. I guess the concept of a 'cultural left' eludes me

I think it's a media creation.

Unless you're talking about things like equal rights and such. That should hardly be considered 'leftist', should it?

WHO precisely are you referring to? What issues? Who are the Democratic bogeymen that you're saying are so out of touch?

ps. I notice that I grew up and spent much of my life within 30 miles of where you are (according to your profile). So we should be able to find some common ground on what is considered 'the extreme cultural left', shouldn't we? We're both from the Waukesha/Walworth county area.

[Zynx]

5. I'm refering to the strongly pro-choice, secular left.

Those who are culturally elitist and generally atheistic. They make up a big chunk of the party and they alienate a large number of potential voters for us. I happen to live in an area where I can hear complaints about the Democrats all the time. Sure, many of these people will never vote Democratic, but many are convertable if we do thigns right. Hell, I'm generally center-left on most issues and I find that group that I describe to be loud and offensive a lot of the time. We need to be an inclusive party that doesn't try to drive wedges on divisive issues, but builds a consensus. The country would appreciate that and vote for it.

[htuttle]

6. We weren't the ones driving the wedges

Really, the only wedge issues I've seen in the last 20 years were ones that the Republicans threw out. Gay marriage, abortion, prayer in schools, etc...All were Republican initiatives designed to split the electorate.

What the Democrats are guilty of is responding poorly to those wedge issues by falling for them every single time.

Do you really think that 'culturally elitist and generally atheistic' people make up a big chunk of the Democratic party?

Huh.

You know, I've been in Madison for the last decade, and I think I only know 2 or 3 people who'd fit the description of 'culturally elitist and generally atheistic'. Then again, I refuse to label poor folks 'culturally elitist' no matter how much they like art. And I don't consider Pagans, Jews and Buddhists to be 'generally athiestic'. Maybe it's our definitions that are askew...

[Radical Activist]

15. This describes many people who set the conventional wisdom

in Washington DC and New York within the party. We need to stop letting people in the northeast make decisions about how to appeal to swing voters in the south and midwest. The other characteristic of this part of the party is that many of them don't see or experience the effects of free trade policies on most of America. Consequently, they have no concept of what our strongest economic issues are.

[cattleman22]

7. The ban private ownership of guns cultural left comes to mind. n/t

[htuttle]

11. Don't know any of those in real life

I spend most of my time with a bunch of militant, gun-owning Communists.

:shrug:

[American Tragedy]

27. I have never met a Dem or liberal for that matter who believed that

private ownership of guns should be banned. Never in my entire life.

[clutchcargo]

37. guns god and marriage

IF WE WOULD TRY WE COULD WIN THE HEARTS AND MIND OF THAT FOUR OR FIVE PERCENT WE NEED TO CARRY US INTO THE WHITE HOUSE IF WE WOULD LEARN TO MAKE REASONABLE CONCESSIONS ON SOME ISSUES IN EXCHANGE FOR A BAN ON ASSAULT RIFLES AND SOME OTHER TYPES OF WEAPONS THAT HAVE NO REASONABLE USE WE COULD PUBLICLY ACKNOWLEDGE THE RIGHT TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS INSTEAD OF VILIFYING ALL CHRISTIANS BY MAKING A BROAD SWEEP OF THEM BY CALLING ALMOST ANYONE WHO BELIEVES IN GOD A RIGHT WING FANATIC-WE SHOULD AT LEAST RESPECT AND ACKNOWLEDGE THEIR BELIEFS---- THERE IS A LOT IN THIS WORLD THAT THE BIG BANG AND EVOLUTION ALONE CANNOT EXPLAIN ALSO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THERE IS A DIFFERENCE IN MARRIAGE BETWEEN A MAN AND WOMAN VERSUS MAN AND MAN OR WOMAN AND WOMAN NOT IN THEIR LOVE OR RIGHTS OR PRIVILEGES BUT IN THE NATURE OF THE RELATIONSHIPS TOO LONG A DISCUSSION BUT NOT THE LEAST OF DIFFERENCES IS THE ABILITY TO PROPAGATE THE SPECIES WE WILL LEAVE ABORTION FOR ANOTHER TIME

[newyawker99]

39. Hi clutchcargo!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Mike L]

18. No, the "cultural left" is anti-gun, anti-God and pro-gay marriage.

It's VERY real.

[htuttle]

31. But have you ever actually met someone like that in person?

I have only once or twice, and I probably live in one of the most 'extreme left' cities in the United States.

So if they are 'VERY real', where the hell are they?

[Mike L]

33. Hanging out on political discussion boards :-)

[htuttle]

34. That's not 'real life'

I don't believe HALF the opinions I read people espousing on political discussion boards. Among other things, people tend to get more extreme when they are fairly anonymous, and say things they don't really think about in the heat of a 'discussion'. And then there's the outright opposition plants who always seem to be the most far out. And for all you know sometimes, you're arguing with a 13 year old who can't even vote yet.

Nope, the only place I have seen all of those particular opinions is on political discussion boards. And I DO know a lot of people in real life with extreme opinions -- just nobody really with all of those at the same time.

Actually, I can't really think of one 'anti-gun' person I know in real life. I know some people who aren't thrilled by guns. I know some people who don't own a gun, and don't want to. But I can't think of anybody I know who wants to take away everyone else's guns. Not a single person.

:shrug:

[American Tragedy]

26. If you're referring to those who think that the government needs to stay

out of the private lives and personal decisions of consenting adults, then yeah, I'm extreme cultural left.

I'm one of those weird freedom-loving small government people.

[Bridget Burke]

3. "Let's Dump All Those Social Issues"--thread # 99,999

Gets really boring after a while.

[blm]

8. WE talked about it alot, but the media systematically filtered it out.

They are NOT on the side of the working people or Democrats.

[Perky]

10. We did not talk about it effectively

It all comes down to sound bites and advertising

What we needed is a "Morning in America" campaignn theme.

[AP]

16. It wasn't part of the core identity of the guy on the top of the ticket.

Kerry was the wealthiest person ever to run for president, and he got most of that wealth from something other than working for a living. Kerry was a great candidate, but not a great vehicle for delivering a message about economic opportunity, regardless of how many bills he voted for as Senator that helped working class people.

[blm]

19. No, he wasn't. His wife is wealthy, but his own wealth is exaggerated by

his opponents and the media who never bothered to get the facts straight.

btw...Kerry worked hard his entire adult life.
btw2...The religious right would have voted against any Democrat.

[AP]

21. I know that.

My point is that if you added up all the money that he has made in his life that he got after being taxed as earned income, and all the money he has received other ways (inheritance, buying and selling capital assets, and marrying) one of those numbers is going to be bigger than the other even though he has worked hard all his life. I think people sort of do that math in their head on a subliminal level and it influences the way they feel about that candidates ability to relate to them on class issues.

It's not a deal breaker by any means. In Blumenthal's book, he writes about how JFKennedy was still perceived as a working class hero because people sensed that because of his religion and his Irish heritage, he was an outsider -- that he'd never be accepted by his Brahmin neighbors in Hyannis Port. But just the fact that Blumenthal felt the need to talk about JFK that way shows that it's an important concern of Democratic voters.

[blm]

23. He didn't "earn" any money when he married. Their legal agreement keeps

their money SEPARATE.

Anyone want to go on record here and claim that pre-nuptial agreements are suddenly not legally binding in Kerry's case?

[AP]

24. Regardless,

But I think it's safe to say that a lot of voters see this guy skiing, snowboarding, hanging out at Martha's Vineyard and Utah, and wondering how a life time as a public servant is paying for all of that, pre-nup or no pre-nup.

I know that, but for the marriages, he wasn't as well off as many of his prep school and yale classmates, but to the average voter, he probably couldn't have looked much wealthier, which isn't a good thing when you're running for president when the middle class is on the endangered species list.

[clutchcargo]

38. A KEPT MAN

WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE IF THE PRE-NUPT IS BINDING OR NOT ----I WOULD NOT MIND BEING A KEPT MAN BY A NICE LOOKING BILLIONAIRE HEIREST

[American Tragedy]

28. Oh yeah, I forgot that Bush is such a hard-living self-made millionaire

[AP]

29. He isn't but you understand why Rove tries to fool people into thinking

that he is?

"Bush made his millions working hard as the owner of a small oil company and then a baseball team and he's also a rancher."

Ask 10 people if that's true and 6 will say yes.

[Perky]

9. It happened because...

The GOP attempted to paint us as:

a) Tax and Spend
b) anti-Business
c) Anti-Wealth
d) Pro-government regulation


We do not have a response to the accusation that persuades the middle class to vote for us nor have we had a spokesman capable of esposuning hat position without beighting wieghed down by his own record.

We lose the middle class when they are persuaded that we stand between them and American Dream.

[AP]

14. Democrats started talking about building up the middle class 100 years

ago. 60 years ago, FDR started turned that talk into policies that worked. About 4 years ago, for the first time ever, voters decided that Demcorats were better on the economy.

So it took 100 years of talking, and 56 years of proving before people beleived.

Notice what happened when people started believing? Republicans dropped most of those things you wrote about in your post and decided that the problem with Democrats is that they can't deal with terror. In fact, terror is such a crucial issue, the economy is secondary to it.

Democrats need to tell people that America is not safe unless we're all strong as individuals. and we're not strong as individuals if we have bad jobs, lots of debt and not health care.

[Perky]

25. I will say it again.

The GOP attempted to paint us as:

a) Tax and Spend
b) anti-Business
c) Anti-Wealth
d) Pro-government regulation


They accused us all these things and we did not effectively respond.

We should be on the offense on these issue...and brin optimism with it.


We do not have a response to the accusation that persuades the middle class to vote for us nor have we had a spokesman capable of espousinging that position without being weighed down by his own record.

We lose the middle class when they are persuaded that we stand between them and American Dream.


We need a "morning in America" type campaign. We need the right spokesman

[AP]

30. They did that in the past. This year they just said we're soft on terror.

And we said, OK, let's talk about terror, because the world is a frightening place.

[AP]

12. When we let Republicans frame reality in terms of war, terror and fear.

[Radical Activist]

13. When the DLC and corporate Democrats told us to chase soccer Moms

We won some votes in the suburbs but we lost the south, rural American and a lot of working class voters everywhere. When we stopped talking about economic issues we allowed Republicans to define the agenda.

Shifting the debate to economic issues doesn't mean we have to be social conservatives. It just means making elections about issues that we can win on.

[Mike L]

17. When Clinton passed NAFTA and was pro-corporation.

Those were good economic times (think excess/bubble) and Clinton sold out the working class.

Now we are thought of as the Liberal Party instead of the Party of FDR.

[PurityOfEssence]

20. About the time we chickened out and scampered away from the word "liberal"

The right has been masterful with its single-mindedness, and they've suckered us into giving up on fairness issues with the phrase "class warfare". Not only is it a good idea to fight them on this, it's necessary.

They have no problem calling Kerry a traitor, we shouldn't shy away from calling them greedy pigs who crush and kill poor people for sport.

[m berst]

22. "extreme left"

Where is this extreme left? I am old enough to remember when there was such a thing. I don't see any "extreme left" anywhere. I hardly see any "left."

If anyone finds this "extreme left" anywhere, please let me know. I want to join.

[w4rma]

32. In 1988, when the Dukakis campaign began to go after soft money, imho (nt)

[patcox2]

35. When we were mau-maued with the "class warfare" label.

I first remember hearing it midway through the Reagan years, any democrat who spoke in terms of economic justice or protecting the workers or the poor was accused of "class warfare."

[AP]

36. In 2000, after 100 yrs, voters finally decided Dems were better on economy

despite the class warfare label.

In 2004, we heard NOTHING about the economy, except that it was OK that it was bad because of Terror. 99% of what Republicans talked about was terror, and the Democrats were too accomodating.

[Bush was AWOL]

40. I don't understand why economic issues aren't are main focus either

it's pretty much the consensus among educated Americans that Democrats are better for the economy. And a known fact that the economy historically has been better under Democratic administrations. We need to explain why, and how tax and spend works just fine, and that it worked for Clinton for about 8 years. It's laughable that Democrats allow themselves to be painted as elitists with what the GOP stands for economically.

[rfkrfk]

41. special 'poor people's taxes', are bad

Kerry'y gasoline tax, lawnmower fuel taxed, but not Gulfstream 5 fuel
Gore's phone tax
McCain-Lieberman's poor people's indirect electricity tax, aka
climate stewardship act
.
I suppose the authors of these taxes were well meaning,
but I grow weary.