Response to Plaid Adder and a Defense of those of us called

[saracat]

"whiners " for not "moving on" from this election and refusing to concede to GW Bush.

A poster on DU commenting on the Plaid Adder Column wrote a stinging rebuke to those of us still contesting the election and I felt , in defense of my fellow "whiners" I would post my response! My response is as follows:

Whoopee! So some people are idealists.


It isn't going to do any good to "learn" about these people. And I do not really believe in my heart of hearts that Bush won. Your contemptuous dismissal of the viewpoints of those of us who view this election as a farce is what is nauseating. This type of reactionary thinking is why American's aren't out in the streets protesting as they are in the Ukraine. With your attitude, MOVE ON would never have been formed. We "whiners" as you call us may be the only thing standing between Democracy and the complete sellout to the corporate dictatorship. It was "whiners such as we who stopped the Vietnam War and "whiners" who protested the British ,and formed this nation.

"Look, I understand how you feel. That kind of reaction is perfectly understandable...for about a week."

A week is all you would give to consider the theft of an election? A week is all it took you to cave in and "move on". Well, there are many of us who are committed to the long haul. And our anger will survive far longer than a week.My anger has not receded since 2000. Why anyone should think this election would abate it is beyond me.

Our problem is not that we didn't "understand" these voters or reach out to them as implied by Plaid Adder, nor is it true that Kerry was a lousy candidate. What is true is that we wasted too much time pandering to both them and the undecided voters who didn't exist. We didn't draw a deep enough line in the sand because we were trying too hard to appease the right and people who will NEVER vote for us.We blurred our own message. We need to be as black and white as Bush was, That is a winning strategy with the voters. You must give them a choice and when you try to "please everybody" you aren't offering a clear choice. What you and others like Plaid Adder are doing is advocating more of the same. A lurch to the middle, translation to the right. It won't work.As Truman said ,"when the voters have a choice between a Republican and a Republican ,they will vote Republican every time"!

The votes are still being counted. I am going to continue to "whine", and I will keep "whining" until every vote is counted and that bastard is out of the White House!

[PROGRESSIVE1]

1. If Democrats give up so easily then we WILL ALWAYS loose!

We MUST fight on within EVERY ASPECT!

[Ducks In A Row]

2. the people who whine about us not giving up should go enlist

that will give them something to do with the time that so obviously lays heavy on their hands

[ooglymoogly]

3. give up? not one fat chance

we have not yet begun to fight. to misquote a whinner

[papau]

4. Excellent - I like Plaid Adder - but I agree with you - memories run

a bit more than a week -

retribution, revenge, or just hope that a lie will be fixed, also run a bit more than a week.

[faithnotgreed]

5. "whining" and "fighting" should be called "integrity" and "democracy"

i think it was sometime in the 80s that society began in earnest using the term or idea "you need to get over it" . because it can be pulled out and used for every occasion!
it can be applied to people who are fighting for their basic societal rights, fighting for honesty in a relationship, fighting for integrity in the workplace etc
its so versatile and cliche that politicians and those in power seem to especially love it!

my biological father is a good example (and i know many people have this type of situation). he and my mother divorced when i was a baby. he was emotionally unavailable and all the rest. didnt mean any harm but just couldnt comprehend that being "the father" wasnt sufficient. i would ask other family about this and see what else i could do, but i was told that "thats just the way he is". and it never felt right but in trying to keep things good in the family i accepted it. so after years of writing to him, visiting etc, i wasnt going to accept it any longer. when i was 24 i finally laid it out that i needed and wanted more from the relationship and that i felt i tried all i could do to work out something with him. he didnt know what i was talking about and wasnt too interested in communicating what he felt. he was subsequently pissed off to no end. see - you just dont do that to your father

so there it was. so i finally faced the truth, faced what i needed for my own peace, and broke off the relationship. it had gone that far and i wasnt going to live my life trying to have an adult relationship with someone who clearly wasnt capable and wasnt interested in working together on this. it has been an unfortunate but very necessary step in my life

i say all this because we have basically allowed things to progress as they have in so many areas. we are partially to blame for the mess were in. because over the years we were told to get over it and we did in so many little and big ways when it came to our rights and our democracy.

the world seems to be filled with this type of emotionally stagnant, eyes fixed ahead but not deal with truth or humanity type of person. i think theyre all in politics! often they dont comprehend what were talking about when we want to communicate and talk truth to have a fuller more balanced relationship without the cliches and power trips and dollar signs. its what they know and few have called them on it. it can work when you call them on their behavior. it doesnt always of course but its so important and worth trying. it may not work but that doesnt mean we give up.

well i heard from family that i needed "to get over it" and "move on" more than once... my biol fathers dysfunction was and is not going to dictate what i choose to do with all the important parts of my life incl my freedoms and my rights and my obligation to all others who want a life of truth and justice in the country they live. why is that asking so much? why are we not supposed to ask - and sometimes demand - that we hold people accountable when they are inflicting hurt?

so if im not just going to get over it in a parental relationship, i sure am not just going to accept that democracy is being decimated.

sorry to go on with all that but it reminded me of what some people act like in their everyday lives. many of us feel that this administration is so disconnected from themselves, from the earth, from spiritual truth, from humanity, that they may as well hold up a neon sign saying as much.
but when they have absolutely no regard for this earth and the people in it, then they have lost the right to ask me to "get over it"

for peace and truth jude

[saracat]

6. Good analogy. You were right to coach it is such personal terms.

Perhaps people can better understand through personal example. No matter what happens, we should never "get over it , or move on" because then we will have ceased caring!

[Touchdown]

55. You just wrote my relationship with my father.

Pretty much to the letter, except I was 3 during the divorce, he re-married, and I tried 3 times to have a relationship with him, at about 24 years old, I just gave up trying... he never called me, and now 13 years later, we've not spoken since. I don't even have his address/phone.

You're right, if I can do this with my own father, then there's no bunch of GOP strangers going to tell me what to get over.

[faithnotgreed]

62. hi touchdown. thanks for sharing this

that is very interesting the similarities. were even the same age if i did the math right!

the divorce actually happened when i was 2, they both re married and yes, i tried multiple times as well. he and i didnt speak for some time after i told him i wasnt going to do this any longer. and like i said, he was highly indignant about my choice. at some point soon after i thought, oh right, NOW he gets emotional. when i choose what i need to do, then he responds. before he had acted like he was in a coma, incapable of using a phone or a pen, but when i did what i needed, then he became capable of big emotion.

i still dont really have a relationship with him but several yrs ago i was able to reach a peace about it. i couldnt do this by myself at all, and it took time but i wanted to be able to live my life and not put my family in the middle where they were hurt by it. it took time to get to this but i felt like i was capable of putting all that behind me and not let it continue to hurt me.

i may see him once every year or so because he lives near my mom and brothers. and im glad that i was finally able to just naturally greet him and spend a bit of time and of course others were around. i mean it wasnt like i had been used to spending much time with him anyway! so it really wasnt that different. i had just been able to move past it and give everyone that because i could. didnt hurt me any so why not give, is how i felt.
then about 2 yrs ago he was diagnosed with alzheimers so at least i hadnt held onto that toxic past by the time he became ill. often thats the kind of situation that prompts reconciliation and im so glad we werent in that situation

anyway. sorry to go on about it that much but i definitely relate to what youve said and wanted to give the more complete version for whatever its worth

i wish you well and again, thanks for responding. its good we can all be in this together and call things for what they really are

peace and hugs jude

[cdp]

7. argh! this is what bothers me

This is a huge forum. There is no reason we can't talk about fraud as well as other ways to improve the democratic party. It seems like every single thread that gets started that DOESN'T talk about fraud, is met with a bunch of "this election was stolen, there is no reason to talk about anything else."

Again, there is no reason we can't talk about fraud and voter irregularities and paper trails AS WELL AS other issues that can improve the democratic party.

Millions upon millions of people voted for Bush, I think we can all agree to that. Why did so many people vote for him? Fraud is not the only answer. If you think that is the most important answer, fine. There is plenty of room here for everyone.

[saracat]

8. Hello? Where was it I said they couldn't discuss other ideas?

I simply was defending those who are put down as "whiners" for continuing to contest the elction. IMHO, they have been put down way more often than the other side who somehow perceive themselves as more rational. We can talk about anything we want. I really don't see where you got that from my post. I have my point of view regarding what should be done and I gave it. Others may disagree. They have the right to. But I will defend those that are being "dismissed". We are seeing a lot of disrespectful comments directed at those who still protest and I am not going to be silent.

[m berst]

9. not true

There are many subjects going on with no one butting in to talk about the election - witness the evolution threads.

No one is saying that "fraud is the only answer" either, whatever that means.

In any case, if the election was stolen, there IS no point in talking about anything else, is there?

This "we need to learn from the success of the Republicans" stuff is the whining, IMHO. What is there to learn? They lie, the steal, they cheat. Why would we look to what they do to "learn" how "we" can "win?"

[WilliamPitt]

17. How the hell do 'evolution threads' help us consider an '08 strategy?

[m berst]

19. they don't

I am not defending them. Just pointing out that there are plenty of threads that aren't about the election irregularities.

Although, we are engaged in a war of ideas and words, and I am finding threads on subjects like evolution vs. creationism helpful in understanding how to win the war of words and ideas.

[WilliamPitt]

22. So...

...people who want to talk about gaming a strategy for '06 and '08 have to tolerate being told that fraud is the only important topic, and if they don't like it they can go find a thread debating whether Adam and Eve had navels?

Not a good plan.

[m berst]

24. not at all

Not in the least. I hope I haven't implied that.

I have been reading your posts about election and campaign strategies and I think that they are very worthwhile. Not a subject that I am focusing on right now, and not one that I feel I have much to contribute, but I wouldn't want to be a disruptor on one of those threads.

I wonder, do the two need to be mutually exclusive or antagonistic to one another? If a group of people are talking about election fraud and suppression, it is annoying to have a poster say that they should get over it. If a group of people are having a discussion about 2008, it is annoying to have a poster come in and say that it is irrelevant. In both cases, the poster is not presenting a point of view, but rather an attempt to invalidate the entire conversation.

I think that many (inlcuding myself) who are focused on the election fraud and suppression have a sense of urgency and feel besieged and embattled. Do you have a sense of urgency about analyzing the election for future benefit and feel somewhat besieged by the vote fraud crowd?

[WilliamPitt]

27. I can walk and chew gum at the same time

It is a talent we all need to learn.

[m berst]

28. rofl

Very good.

on edit - the more I think about this, you are making a good point and I agree. It should not be an either/or situation.

[cdp]

30. uhh...

"No one is saying that 'fraud is the only answer' either, whatever that means. In any case, if the election was stolen, there IS no point in talking about anything else, is there?"

Can you explain the above statement to me please? It sounds to me like you are saying fraud is the only answer.

"Why would we look to what they do to 'learn' how 'we' can 'win?'"

Because Republicans keep on getting elected. Democrats' message should be connecting with more people and it isn't. You may think that Kerry and the Democrats did everything perfectly, I don't. I think there is much room for improvement. One of the reasons I don't connect with conservatives is because they like to "stay the course." Bush can't admit to mistakes and I think it is pathetic. I think our government should always be progressing towards something better. I think Democrats should always try to find ways to be a better, more effective organization.

Republicans are kicking ass, and we should try to learn from that. Why do they connect with people so much? Because they lie cheat and steal? I don't think that explains why I know a few gay people who voted for Bush.

Please note that "learning from" Republicans has nothing to do with "becoming" Republicans or taking on any of their policies.

[m berst]

33. ok here we are

Hi cdp. Welcome to DU. I got into a side conversation with Walt and had to go back and read to find my place again.

"Can you explain the above statement to me please? It sounds to me like you are saying fraud is the only answer."

Not quite. I see it as a multi-faceted threat, and the most recent and immediate aspect of the threat was the stolen election. I think that this was something more than a little cheating for the sake of gaining office. I think that the election was stolen for the purpose of stealing the government, and the people who are stealing the government plan to use it. What they plan in using it for will be horrendous. So I see the issue as a priority, but not to the exclusion of anything else - providing that the "anything else" is not based on ignoring the plans of the opposition.

"Please note that "learning from" Republicans has nothing to do with "becoming" Republicans or taking on any of their policies."

The Democratic party is already saturated with Republican positions IMHO, and I do think that we make a mistake trying to learn anything from the Republicans. They don't so much have a philosophy or an ideology as they have a style - they bully and cheat and they are grabbing for power. To imitate or respond in kind to those "winning" tactics is self-defeating.

I am reading a translation of Josef Goebbels diary right now, and stumbled across a very revealing entry. He was bullying the opposition in England and France into the same box that the right wingers have us in here. He had just read press reports from France and Great Britain about a Nazi party conference in which the writers speculated on who was in favor, what the meaning of various pronouncements from the conference meant - in short, trying to rationally analyze Nazi insanity as though it were a meeting of the British Labour party or some other democratic organization.

"They seem to be reading all sorts of meanings into it. But only the completely wrong ones. How else could it be? They judge us according to democratic customs. And yet, in London and Paris, they are being forced increasingly to accept our maxims. National Socialism can only be combated successfully by National Socialist methods."

Later, he often spoke of baiting them into responding in kind to the taunts and jabs he sent their way. If they succumbed and bullied back, "we win" he said.

[ever_green]

45. the election was stolen, but Bush got lots of votes! We need to ask why

Why didn't Kerry have a bigger lead? He was not a good candidate. People here are still in denial about that, and it will only hurt us.

[m berst]

54. agreed, both are important

Both the issue of the (possible!!) criminal theft of a presidential election - treason, that would be - and the implications of that for the future, as well as the issues of Democratic campaign strategy and tactics failures, are, of course important.

I object to people calling for focusing on one to the exclusion of the other, and I am suspicious of those calls.

Discussions about the possible stolen election do not in any real way that I can see impair efforts to analyze the party's performance. Insisting on "getting over it" about the stolen election issue, however, does impair the efforts to call for more investigation of this election.

I believe that within the next 6-12 months, this will all become more clear. Perhaps - just perhaps - we will be pleasantly surprised by this administration, and all of the "tin foil" people will be discredited and we can proceed with "framing" and analyzing demographics and fine-tuning the Democratic party message. I am betting that this administration will follow the track it has been on, though, and soon all of the rules will be re-written by them again, and we will be facing new horrors that will make analysis of the Democratic party message seem pretty silly. Time will tell, and I don't think people are going to like what they are told.

[robbedvoter]

20. Uh, multitasking is allowed. Get over it - is not

I myself am working on both fraud and contemplating a 2008 campaign - any human brain except W can hold 2 ideas at the time in it (plan A, plan B)

[cdp]

31. I am not saying "get over it" and I don't think Plaid Adder is either

Multitask away. Sounds good to me.

[ever_green]

44. me too!

I've seen TONS of replies stating "The election was stolen! Why talk about anything else!"
I know plenty of people who voted for Bush. We definitely need to talk about changing our "strategy" people.

[Teaser]

10. Should I believe in significant fraud...

if all the evidence I've seen says it wasn't decisive?

I'm all in favor of counting the votes because every vote deserves to be counted. But that is a far cry from allegations that the election was stolen when the level of fraud claims in this election are about that seen in every other national election we've had (save 2000, when the theft was obvious and unabashed).

[papau]

11. exit poll evidence I've seen says it was decisive :-)

:-)

[saracat]

12. Maybe just on the basis the GOP are incapable of winning honestly?

If they cheated in 2000 what on earth would make you think they woudn't cheat this time as well, especially considering they went to court to block madatory paper trails?

[AntiCoup2K4]

32. You can't compare previous elections to 2000, 02, or 04

The reason is the electro-fraud machines.

In any previous election, there would be a paper trail of the actual votes, so unless those were shredded and the evidence disposed of before anyone figured it out.

Now with Diebold and the other machines designed to commit massive fraud by the Republicans who own the companies, there is no evidence to dispose of to begin with, except for numbers in a database that could be hacked by a 10 year old.

[robbedvoter]

13. The "whiners" in Ukraine just got themselves a new election!

BREAKING: Ukraine Parliament Brings Down Government over Election Fight
http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/120204Z.shtml

[noiretextatique]

49. heaven forbid that could happen in this pathetic country

when half of the "opposition" is claiming the party that stole the 2000 election "won" this one and it's time to "move on." only in america, apparently.

[Ladyhawk]

14. Plaid Adder called us whiners????

I didn't read that article and now I'm glad I didn't.

Sigh.

No wonder the Dems are losers.

I hate the whole "get over it" attitude of some people. The above poster--sorry, lost your name--is right. "Get over it" has become a catch-phrase for those who want to put other people down. All you have to say is "Get over it" and automatically, you look like the strong, rational one. :eyes:

[saracat]

15. I didn't say she said we were whiners. A DU poster , upholding

what I would suppose you could call the "tone" of Plaid Adders recent column called us that. The quote used in my original message is from that poster.

[Ladyhawk]

21. OK. Whew! n/t

[JohnOneillsMemory]

16. George Orwell says 'count the votes.'

"Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four.
If that is granted, all else follows."
-George Orwell in 1984

[Eloriel]

18. Thanks -- well said. I'd like to add this --

from Jesse Jackson, and I concur completely:

"We can live with winning and losing. We cannot live with fraud and stealing."

WShen I'm convinced that there was no fraud and stealing, AND that we've done everything possible to prevent any more fraud and stealing, THEN I'll stop whining.

In the meantime, democracy is more at risk than it's ever been. For those who don't understand this, I suggest you get busy and find out what the hoopla is all about, before it's too late.

One place you can start is here:

VOTE FRAUD LINKS - A DU Compendium - Thread #4
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=201&topic_id=6166&mesg_id=6166

VOTE FRAUD LINKS - A DU Compendium - Thread #3
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=201x4927

VOTE FRAUD Links Compendium - Thread #2
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=201x3223

VOTE FRAUD Links - a DU Compendium
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=201&topic_id=1984#

[m berst]

23. a gem of wisdom there

So many are saying "prove there was fraud!" and then go on to suggest or imply that if it can't be proved to their satisfaction, then it didn't occur and we should therefore all be making decisions based on the assumption that things are more or less as they were before the election. From that it is an easy jump to embrace and repeat all kinds of right wing talking points about "values" and "message" and what the Democrats are doing wrong and what the Democrats need to learn.

Eloriel said "When I'm convinced that there was no fraud and stealing, AND that we've done everything possible to prevent any more fraud and stealing..."

This turns things back right side up. We need to know with certainty that they AREN'T stealing our country, and not spend a lot of time trying to prove to our supposed allies that they are.

By the wisdom of the people who founded the country, the burden of proof is on the powerful people who are running the country, not on the people.

"Prove that they aren't tyrants" is the patriotic and sane position. It isn't whining or delusional to say that.

[AuntiBush]

25. If Whining Means...

... standing up for a democracy felt as lost, and a second presidential election riddled with obvious significant problems, so be it. To use the term "whining" (by our opponents) merely shows the vast difference of two cultures in America - 1 that is educated, and compassionate enough to fight for what are country really stands for, and the other side, grinning like schoolyard bullies as they gloat over their win amid their name calling.

Irony will soon follow, I predict that as they soon see the promises that led the down the bridal path of deceat are met with deaf ears, and more corporation/capital arrogance runs high - maybe, and maybe then they will turn to the only ones they know they can count on when the chips are so low - their fellow Americans that do fight for injustice, and freedom for all.

Maybe if we take a deep breathe, and close the browser rather than hurl one more justifably flaming remark back at them, they'll soon find there is no one around to name call, and they'll pay more attention to the powers they intrusted to destroy our democracy and constitution. At least, that's what I'm hopeing for.

[Doctor_J]

26. what about us "other" people??

If I read you correctly, you seem to believe there are only two groups - the "keep the recount alive" people and the "get over it" people. What about group 3 (me)?

Do I believe the election was stolen? I have no doubt of it. The tracking polls, exit polls, crossovers (Kevin Phillips, Bob Smith, the retired diplomats, all my wife's repub relatives, lots of military), FL 2000, and on and on all point to a Kerry landslide in a fair election.

But I also believe that all this energy expended on trying to get the OH results overturned is COMPLETELY wasted. In order for this to bear any fruit, you have to assume the following, IN ORDER:

- The traceable results weren't jigged the minute after Kerry conceded

- A recount will be granted by the courts, up to and including SCOTUS

- You will actually be given access to all the ballots to count

- Some major media outlet somewhere will report the fact that Kerry actually won OH

- All of the above will happen in time to inaugurate Kerry on 1/20

- * and the rest of the wingers that run the country will actually cede to the truth and let Kerry take office.

The odds of these things happening I work out to on the order of 1,000,000,000,000 to 1.

These people are not going to be deposed by recounts or any other constitutional means. If you want to know how this chapter of US history will end, read about Stalin, or Hitler, or Mussolini. What we need to do is start providing the stimulus for them to collapse on themselves sooner rather than later, so that the rebuilding can start sooner. The one main thing we have on our side is that they are as incompetent as they are corrupt. It's going to be bad when they go down, but we can be ready.

Write LTTE. Call CSPAN. Call hate radio. Post on the blogs. Make sure you make liberal use of the words coward, liar, drunk, fake, thief, silver spoon, embarrassment, disaster, and chicken hawk. Refuse to give yourself or your offspring to the military - if one of you gets drafted, write back with the name of the chairman of the local College Republicans. Join a union. Next time the FOP calls your house asking for money, tell them you'll send some in when they stop endorsing fascists for president.

IOW, I think the chance of the recount gaining anything is zilch. Be creative and think up some new ways to take our country back.

[saracat]

29. Actually contesting the election feeds in well with what you suggest.

I still incline to thinking there are basically two groups. Those that believe the election was stolen, and those that think Bush won because he got more votes! I guess you could have a third category who would specifically say the vote was stolen but the recount would fail. But it still is stolen versus Bush won. What application you choose to make of that point is up to you.At least one can agree it is a point of protest!

[tavalon]

61. Oh my God!

I have a new label! If what you just outlined is what is called "other", I am most definitely other. You encapsulated my point of view almost perfectly. One difference - Am I busting my butt right now to get the BBV stuff out there and busting my butt to make the recount happen and to stir up as much stuff as possible, right now? You betchya. Do I believe that this definite (in my mind) fraud will be turned over? Not a chance. But, this does have a chance of pulling the silly little "mandate" rug out from under the pompous ass emperor who happens to be naked and it is extremely necessary to be timely right now because if the dangers of these machines aren't exposed right now while half of the electorate is still pissed, we may never be able to get rid of them and if we don't get rid of them, we can all take our toys home because it's all voter pageantry rather than voter participation from that point on. When it comes to Bushco, my four year plan is undermine, undermine, undermine and then step out of the way when it implodes. Following that, I do intend to spend a bit of time gloating. I'm owed.

I'm quite capable of also looking at what is wrong in the Democratic party (huge things) and in working on strategies (like infiltrating the Dem party from the ground up to wrestle control back to the truly progressive liberals).

I'm determined to spend huge amounts of time getting the grassroots (myself included) out there to be the media because our media currently is bought and paid for and is almost effectively state run or at least state masturbated.

What I'm not entirely able to do just yet is pick my favorite '08 candidate just yet because I can't shake the knowledge that we can do any amount of picking the perfect candidate and yet, without those nasty machines gone, he or she is just part of the pageantry. It makes me too sad to do that just yet.

[I_Love_Oregon]

34. who we are, and who we aren't

Since I began posting here recently, my primary message has been this: If we intend to win back the White House, we MUST stop blinding ourselves, and our party, to the truth of what our party has become. Listen, our core values are so much better then the Republicans, but the truth is, we are NOT the party of the average, working person anymore. We like to THINK we are, and our rhetoric speaks to them. But look around with an open mind, and it's clear that this is not the case.

Just take a look at the map of all those Red counties around America, and one theme pops out.. we rule the cities, and college towns, but everywhere else has been lost. That "everywhere else" is populated by average, working people. The exception to this rule is in minority communities, where we still enjoy large support from working class people.

Face it Democrats, we have become a party of the highly educated, big city metrosexuals, a vast array of smaller interest groups, and similar individuals. The unvarnished truth is we have lost touch with a large segment of America... small town values, most of the suburbs, farmers, and now, a large chunk of Hispanics as well.

Before we can make in-roads and expand our base, it is ESSENTIAL that we're honest with ourselves and make a clear-eyed assessment of where our strenghts are, and where they are not. That way, the road to success is visible, and the road back to victory possible.

K

[saracat]

35. Oh Puleeze! I am sorry ,but we have "lost touch"?

What and the Repubs are "in touch" with the average American? Do the Repugs even know that unemployment exists? The honest fact is, since you want honestly, The "average" American agreed with the Dems 100% on domestic issues and even the Repukes admit that.
It is exactly as Michael Moore said. They simply told a better story, Bush with the bullhorn .Bush will keep you safe.It didn't matter that the story was a lie. They repeated it until it became true in the minds of the populace. It was like mass hypnosis. It was , "keep us safe, stupid". This "values" crap only began to be floated "after" the election. Bunnypants needs an excuse for his domestic agenda so he is spinning a values mandate, They had a young "MORAN" on AAR tonight and he couldn't come up with one reason why he voted for Bush except to finally say he " woke up every morning hating the Tali ban for 8-11". NO joke . He said 8-11 and Tali ban.He said Bush would keep us safe, Cheney sais so and he is a stand up guy. Values? We don't need to be changin no stinking values!

[I_Love_Oregon]

36. a post riddled with error

Geez, where do I start.

snip
The "average" American agreed with the Dems 100% on domestic issues and even the Repukes admit that
snip

What a ridiculous statement. Is Gay Marriage a domestic issue? Geez, even in my lovely state of Oregon...long considered a bastion of progressive ideals, the ballot measure that defines marriage as 'between one man and one woman' passed by a double digit margin.

Here's what's bothering me.. we, as Democrats, MUST start being honest and clear eyed about the state of politics, or we will continue fooling ourselves into defeat. I'm tired of reading posts about how dumb everyone is for getting "fooled" by the Republicans...that, if ONLY we had gotten our message out better, we would have surely won. Got news for you... pull your head out!! We will NOT win elections as long as we keep convincing ourselves that better packaging is the tonic for all that ails us.

As long as our side continues to belittle average Americans for being too dumb, or too ignorant, or fooled by the Republicans, we WILL NOT win elections. As soon as we realize the folly of this, we can begin the process of refining our message that SPEAKS TO average Americans, and not against them.

[saracat]

37. So , If "average Americans" are dumb and "fooled by the Republicans"

which, if we are right and the Repugs are wrong, we are supposed to dumb down and behave like Repugs to win their vote? Is that what you are saying? If we have to win by being Repug lite what is the point of winning? This reasoning is exactly what is wrong with the DLC and why we keep losing. I respect your right to think this way but I think we will always lose unless we offer a completely different choice to the voter. We can't have two Republican parties and that is what you are actually suggesting. And if the average American is as you say, then there is absolutely no reason to stay here in the Jesusland of God, guns and anti-Gay. We can't save anything because they will NEVER vote for us!

[I_Love_Oregon]

39. Let me be clear

First, I'm NOT saying that Americans are "dumb" or were "fooled". I'm saying exactly the opposite, and was pointing out the folly of saying and/or believing this.

I'm also not saying that we need to act or sound like Republicans. What I am saying is ENOUGH with this looking down our nose at 'those dumb Americans', and than asking them to vote for our side. Your average American, while not usually politically savvy, is smart enought to recognize which party is speaking to their values. What the Democrats..not so much the candidates, but the acivists need to treat everyday, Red-state Americans with respect. That means, not assuming the worst about your opponent. That means engaging is honest dialog. That means not assuming the worst of your opponent's motivation.

The path to victory is not as daunting as it may seem. Democratic ideals, ideas, positions, and values are superior to Republicans. This we all can agree on. I do believe there are a few issues that we have lost. But in totality, our side is stronger. Where we fall down is in how we have lost site of "Average Americans"... I wouldn't necessarily call this packaging because it's deeper than that. I just feel that too many on our side have lost sight of the bigger picture, and too many people who would otherwise vote for our side have picked up on that.

[saracat]

40. But if the votes were really for Bush, they are "dumb" and were

"fooled" and if they are the type of people we put down, like those people I mentioned God, guns, and ant-Gay, why would we want to appeal to their vote? It is a moot point because they would never give it to us. I believe that there was no valid reason to vote for Bush. To do so one would have to be either stupid or evil. That is my impression.I wouldn't know or want to know ,how to court the vote of such people. I think we should forget about them and create new Dems. There. Flame away

[I_Love_Oregon]

41. Saracat

I'm not going to flame you. Your opinion is just a valid as mine, and I respect it. However, I really think this attitude that you've expressed in your post, an attitude shared by many at DU, and among a significant portion of our party, is not only harmful to our cause, but it's also degrading and condescending. When you cast people in terms of "guns, gays, and God" types, it is stereotyping individuals in the same way that Liberals have always said was so unbecoming of the other side. Instead of making no effort to determine why these people voted for Bush and assuming they're either "evil" or just plain stupid, why not looking a bit deeper at what motivates them. I guarantee that many of these people voted for Clinton, and I think they are more than willing to pick the candidate who speaks to their values again. This time around, they determined that to be Bush. Let's use our energy to determine how we can get these people back instead of calling them names and insulting them.

[saracat]

42. Who cares if they voted for Clinton? And BTW My attitude is not

the prevailing attitude of the Party. Yours is! And I think that is why we lose JMHO. And if you say Bush speaks to their values there is no way in hell they will ever speak to mine. I said it and I meant it. They only respond to black and white and that is what we should do.Forget about them. Develope ourselves and create new Dems. We can't get back what we never had. If you have the values of Bush, you are not a Dem. Period. And there was NO valid reason to vote for Bush. Name one. That isn't stupid or evil.I can almost guarantee any Bush voters reason in in one of those two catagories. I think I'll move to the Ukraine where they have a real democracy!

[noiretextatique]

50. amen...talk to some bush voters, as i have done recently

:puke: most of them HAVE NO IDEA why they voted for him. trying to reclaim these people is a complete waste of time...even if they did vote for clinton.
trying to "understand" the person who has just cut your jugular...well, that may get you into heaven, but you will be dead.

[I_Love_Oregon]

60. fine, and keep losing elections

Well, your opinion is valid, and very popular around here. However, I think it's a receipe to continue losing elections.

You might think these people are stupid or evil, but you're talking about people who have raised kids, created businesses, and have a lot to offer. People like this are not, for the most part, Republicans nor Democrats. They tend to vote for either side, and are worth fighting for. We will not win elections if we choose to ignore this vast array of voters. Nobody's asking you to sell out, or becoming Republican. What I am asking you to do is respect them, as you would like people to respect you. This knee-jerk reaction to them is holding our party back!

You might believe there's 'no valid reason to vote for Bush', but that's simply your opinion. I'm sure they have their reasons, and instead of pissing on them, let's make an effort to understand what drives them, and motivates them, and then determine how they can be won over.

[ever_green]

47. yes, very well said.

Name-calling and put-downs do absolutely no good, more harm in fact, than anything. My parents voted for Bush, they are neither dumb nor stupid. Uninformed perhaps, but not stupid. Let's be reasonable, and not so angry, as it does no good.

[saracat]

52. Reasonable has worked so well in the past ,don't you think? Tom Dascle was

reasonable. Look where he is. Rush and Hannity aren't "reasonable " and who has more influence? "Forgetaboudit". Reasonable doesn't work or the Repukes would be using it. Uninformed and deliberately ignorant as well as brainwashed are the same as stupid. I am sorry about your parents,. They should have made more of an effort to inform themselves. If they are very old or infirm , they should have been educated by their children.

[saracat]

38. And okay, maybe not 100% but the majority of Americans

sided with the Dems on domestic issues. We allegedly lost them on terror and safety. That was the consensus of the polls.

[eridani]

43. People who think that Iraq was involved in 9-11 may not be dumb--

--but they are surely pig-ignorant. How do you bring yourself to respect someone who thinks that?

[cdp]

53. Respect isn't the issue

I am sure there are plenty of crappy people who voted for Kerry, and plenty of wonderful people who voted for Bush.

If I had to sum up the major problem for Democrats, I'd say it is the fact that people vote for very simplistic reasons. Many people connected with Bush's "bumper sticker speak."

To many people, Bush's foreign policy is simply "USA #1." What was Kerry's? Can you some it up in 5 words?

Can you explain Kerry's stance on Iraq in 5 words? I can't.

What about Kerry's stance on taxes? We need to except the fact that most people don't even know what the deficit means. They just say "Bush doesn't like taxes, he is the man for me."

I think that Democrats need to understand that we should often modify the way we speak to different audiences. When I tell my parents what I did last Friday night, it is worded much differently than when I tell my buddies. The information is the same, just worded a little differently.

Is this "dumbing it down?" I don't think so. It is trying to make the message connect appropriately.

[saracat]

56. I disagree with your first assumption. I agree with you

on message. But it is evident that people who must be talked to in "bumper sticker speech" and five word sound bites are not too bright. Message is one thing .Inability to see what Bush is doing is another.You have to choose to believe that or actually believe it and that says what?

[ever_green]

46. I agree.

[Guaranteed]

48. DO...WE...HAVE...EVIDENCE??

Do we have ANYTHING that's potentially useful, in OHIO or FLORIDA????

Because THAT is what we need! If we don't have anything, then we need to get our shit together- get something called a PLATFORM, and start relating to the American people!!! ENOUGH!!

[saracat]

51. I ,Too am waiting for Evidence. All I can say is no one knows what

we have or don't have.And it depends what American people you mean. If it means dragging ourselves into the gutter with the fundies and the Bush voters, I say no. But is it means crafting a new platform that draws a line in the sand , presents an entirely different point of view from the Repugs, and gives people a choice, I am all for it. But forget about voter conversion. Ain't gonna happen, Create new Dems who believe in the Democratic message, not Republican lite Dems.

[Guaranteed]

57. Agreed. nt

[Plaid Adder]

58. You're not responding to me.

You're responding to tomreedtoon, the guy who started this thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2773701

My response is in that thread. I do want to make it clear that I never said anything in that column one way or another about the election fraud issue, nor did I call anyone a 'whiner'.

The Plaid Adder

[saracat]

59. APOLOGY TO PLAID ADDER I was only responding to you about

the question of "learning " from these people. I do not think we can learn anything valuable from them . The other poster, tomreedtoon ,is, indeed ,the one who referenced "whining". He was writing in response to you. I did correct a poster who asked about you and the "whining" I said you had said no such thing. I do apologize for the confusion.

Thank you for your response in the other thread. I was very impressed and feel reassured about your POV. I have always been a fan of yours. I now join the other posters in wishing you a happy vacation.