14,000 WILD HORSES TO BE SLAUGHTERED

[NVMojo]

Just got this email from friends at www.wsdp.org ....I thought this rider was a done deal but it is not ....

Hello everyone! Please take a minute and forward to as widely as you can.

We desperately need your help to get the word out about a Rider on an Appropriations Bill that is sneaking its way thru Congress and a vote is expected on Monday.

This Rider would give the Bureau of Land Management the authority to begin the slaughter of 23,000 wild horses on public lands throughout the Western states.

Any horse that is 10 years old and older will be sent immediately to slaughter, and any horse that is younger than 10 who has been sent to auction 3 times and not been sold will be sent to slaughter. And the BLM would not have to do any advertising to open up adoption of the horses.

We must get the word out about this -- wild horses are essential to the ecosystem of the West, along with the Buffalo, the prairie dog, and the endangered blackfooted ferret.

They are also essential to the spiritual and cultural survival of the Native Peoples there.

Though the ostensible reason for the horses being slaughtered is "overgrazing," no such mass slaughter of cattle is proposed. This Administration is well-known for its "embedding" with major corporations. The cattle industry is a powerful lobby and is likely behind this legislation, as it is behind Montana Department of Livestock's yearly slaughter of the last remaining herd of genetically pure wild Buffalo on public lands in Yellowstone National Park. (Interesting that the Senator who introduced this Rider is also from Montana.)

Thank you for your work and for taking action,

Amanda Holmes



14,000 WILD HORSES TO BE SLAUGHTERED

PRESS RELEASE:
International Society for the
Protection of Mustangs and Burros


CONTACT: Karen A. Sussman 605-964-6866 or 605-365-6991


Lantry, SD- Surreptitiously, over the Thanksgiving Day Holiday, a rider (#142)
introduced by Senator Mark Burns of Montana in the omnibus federal
Appropriation Bill literally guts the built in protections in the 1971 Wild
Horse and Burro Act and will allow for thousands of wild horses to be shipped to slaughter.

Without hearings or input from concerned citizens of our country this rider appeared in the 4,000 page spending bill document and was passed unanimously by both houses. It is now waiting signing by President Bush on December 8th.

“After thirty-three years of a compassionate, conservation minded Act that protected the fast diminishing wild horse herds from slaughter, this rider spells doom to America’s wild horses”, according to Karen Sussman, president of ISPMB.

Sussman says that ISPMB’s first president, Wild Horse Annie, and the organization committed twenty-one years of fighting to protect the few
remaining wild horses on public lands so that future generations could enjoy these magnificent animals that represent freedom and the American way. Sussman says, “With one swipe of the ink over paper with the President’s signature, over fifty years of fighting for protection of wild horses and burros in our country will be annihilated.”

Today, we have fewer wild horses and burros than in 1971 when the Wild Horse and Burro Act was passed. The constant erosion of protection has been an ongoing battle with the BLM, mandated by law to protect these animals. In 1974, there were more than 55,000 wild horses and burros roaming ten western states and 303 herd areas identified. Today, according to BLM statistics, although much
disputed by preservation groups, there are 36,000 wild horses and burros and only 186 areas where wild horses and burros can be found. More herd areas are slated to be zeroed out.

There is still time to makes changes in the Appropriation Bill as Congress reconvenes on Monday to pull some riders out of the bill. If Congress would so deem, rider #142 could be pulled out on Monday.

Sussman says that a groundswell of support is needed and concerned citizens must contact their Congressional representatives in their states. Already the phone lines to the president’s office are ringing constantly.

If the rider cannot be pulled from the Appropriation Bill the rider becomes a permanent amendment to the Wild Horse and Burro Act, it opens the backdoor for the BLM to send thousands of wild horses to slaughter.

[medeak]

1. stinks of cattlemen

went through hell with big horn sheep vs cattlemen

Why can't everyone share public lands? jeesh

[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

62. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[clutchcargo]

76. cattle vs big horn sheep

IT IS O.K. TO OPPOSE THINGS BUT TO MAKE UP COMPLAINTS IS UNNECESSARY --- THE PERSON WHO COMPLAINED THAT THEY HAD ENCOUNTERED PROBLEMS WITH CATTLE VS BIG HORN SHEEP IS A FRAUD------BIG HORN SHEEP ARE HIGH MOUNTAIN SHEEP--(the ones on the dodge ramcharger truck add) AND THUS ALMOST WOULD NEVER HAVE A PROBLEM OVER RANGE WITH CATTLE----PERHAPS WE NEED TO CONFINE OUR ENERGIES TO ACTUAL PROBLEMS--NOT JUST TRY TO POST FOR POSTINGS SAKE

[knowbody0]

2. first the wolf

now the horse
thank you for your post

[Quetzal]

3. We should fucking demagogue this issue

Commericial: Girl petting pony only to find out that it's going to get fucking killed!!!

Seriously, this should piss off those Louis L'Amour Bush voters out in the West!!!.

[Spiffarino]

53. Oh, that is a terrific idea

Headline:

Compassionate Conservatives Killing Colts!

[clutchcargo]

78. BUSH-L'AMOUR VOTERS

PLEASE TRY TO THINK THRU AN ISSUE----I JOINED HERE FOR SOME WELL THOUGHT OUT GIVE AND TAKE--PARTISAN--YES-BUT WITH THOUGHT AND UNDERSTANDING

[ailsagirl]

4. I'm so ANGRY

I CANNOT abide cruelty to animals and these monsters are intent on doing just that-- I simply cannot stomach it.

Please, everyone, speak up.

[ailsagirl]

5. kick

[The Backlash Cometh]

6. How do Repubs in the midwest feel about this?

[NVMojo]

11. they want all of the wildhorses dead cuz

they are eating the food for cattle on public land and cattle make repuke ranchers money ....

[spotbird]

18. As things stand now the horses are a cash cow for ranchers

in the Midwest. The large ranches are paid $1.25 per horse per day to maintain the relocated horses, the large ranches adopt thousands of the horses at a time. Rich people are doing very well on this deal, in Republican states. Because it perpetuates the "welfare only for the rich" mentality which prevails all of Washington today I'd be shocked if a new policy which kills the golden goose were adopted.

[NVMojo]

20. spotbird ...I don't know about you but I can name

Nevada Congressmen and county commissioners who are supporting this rider. And they are all republicans who claim they fight for ranching and one of them told me to my face these horses need to go.

[spotbird]

29. It happens.

http://www.casperstartribune.net/articles/2004/08/22/news/regional/22296b9cf5669b7987256ef7007502e1.txt

http://www.wildhorsepreservation.com/solutions.htm

[NVMojo]

31. good links, thanks...

[clutchcargo]

77. HOW DO REPUBS FEEL---

THAT IS LESS THAN 450 DOLLARS PER YEAR --- WHERE IS THE RICH THING WITH THAT---THERE HAS TO BE A BALANCE HERE--WE CAN FIND IT-----WE CANNOT LET REPUBLICANS DECIDE THAT--BUT-ALSO WE CANNOT BLIND OURSELVES TO OVERPOPULATION ISSUES (as distasteful as they may be)

[Jon8503]

7. More Repuke Bullshit. This is not something that has or should

occur. This is Bush's Red States behind this. They want to destroy anything that does not make them money. I am sure the ranchers are pushing this. Mojo thanks for the info.

[ailsagirl]

8. I just called the contact person...

(Karen Sussman) and she couldn't talk because she was about to go on the radio (I'm glad to say) but she'll call me later or I'll call her tomorrow.

She said, "We really need help."

So please, everyone, stand by. I'll keep you posted as to what she tells me.

Meantime, we can BOMBARD this f*ing a****** who sponsored the bill with emails or phone calls-- this is bullshit!!!!!!!

I couldn't find "Mark Burns" as being a senator from Montana, but I found "Conrad Burns."

http://burns.senate.gov/index.cfm?FuseAction=Home.Contact

Please email him about this!!! And, of course, he's a REPUKE!! Big surprise.

[NVMojo]

12. you are awesome, ailsagirl!!!

thank you!!

[ailsagirl]

17. Thank you for bringing it to our attention...

even if some don't think it's a big deal

I happen to think it's a HUGE deal

I will keep you posted

[Changenow]

9. wild horses are essential to the ecosystem of the West?!?!!

They aren't native and are destructive to the ecosystem.

They are pretty and should be adopted, but the ecosystem deserves the indigenous species to maintain balance, the horses are disruptive.

[ailsagirl]

16. thanks for your support

[Changenow]

21. Somehow supporting the maintenance of an alien species

which is destructive to the natural ecosystem because the invasive species is pretty doesn't make much sense to me. Oh well.

[underseasurveyor]

71. To the contrary

It has been proven many times over in this country and in Canada that wild horses do greatly benefit and actually enhance the native species without destroying the ecosystem. Wild horses have lived on this continent long enough that they may as well be concidered a native species. Previously there were no environmental problems, only when the miners and the ranchers showed up has there been any conflict and real damage to the environment.
Time to update your info and leave the BLM, rancher, miner, misinformed sound bites behind.

[Kali]

74. I would very much like to see your evidence

any citations?

again, the cattle have been here as long as the horses, but there is prejudice against those "hooved locusts" and horsies remain beautiful and harmless. Why?

[underseasurveyor]

75. OK here is but one

There are plenty more though.

http://www.savewildhorses.org/ecosys.htm

HOW WILD HORSES AND BURROS BENEFIT THE ECOSYSTEM:
"Both wild horses and burros complement the North American ecosystem by dispersing the intact seeds of many native plant species in their feces, and, in fact, have been deliberately reintroduced by ecologists to fulfill this much needed ecological purpose. They also aid greatly in the creation of humus and the building of soil, as well as enhance the food chain through contributing their Earthly remains to their predators (puma, black bear) and scavengers (corvid birds, vultures, hawks, rodents, wild dogs, bobcats, insects, etc.); and even, in the final case, to the fungi which decompose their remains and to the plants which absorb their nutrients through their roots. Livestock, on the other hand, are removed by humans for consumption, contributing little or nothing to the ecosystems they--through no fault of their own--despoil!

Wild horses and burros break ice during winter freezes, thus making accessible food and water for a variety of animals, including deer, bighorn, cats, wild dogs, rodents, rabbits, and birds, who would otherwise perish. Similarly, during summer months, they paw down to subterranean waters, thus making water accessible to many creatures who would otherwise perish.


WILD HORSES AND BURROS SPREAD THEIR GRAZING AND WATERING USE OVER A LARGE AREA, UNLIKE CATTLE, AND AID IN FIRE PREVENTION:
In spite of contrary claims, wild horses and burros are capable of leading a semi-nomadic lifestyle in the vast semi-arid reaches of the West. They may roam over a few to several hundred, even a thousand or more, square miles, depending on the lushness of vegetation and the availability of water and shelter. They do not camp on streams, rivers, lakes and springs, as do cattle and sheep, but judiciously disperse their takings over a much more extensive area then do these domesticated animals. Thus, in many grazing allotments where wild horses and burros are removed, purportedly to allow cattle and sheep to graze, in fact, the great majority of the land and forage in inaccessible to livestock, but would be accessible to the wild horses and burros. They would continue to survive in these areas without overgrazing them. This indicates the prejudiced scapegoating of wild horses and burros that goes on in order to perpetrate and perpetuate vested and exploitative, ecologically disharmonious livestock grazing on our public lands!"
:snip:

[Kali]

80. Not sure how long this needs to be continued,but here goes:

Your post is a series of statements from an advocacy website. There is no mention of any studies or researchers. These assertions are a mixture of some truth, some error and some outright misinformation.

The dispersal of seeds is true of all livestock (and other herbivores), and has both positive and negative consequences, depending on what they are actually eating and dispersing. The claim of soil building is pretty suspect in an arrid environment, it would be very dependant on certain factors being present and can also be achieved with cattle, probably easier. The opposite of soil building, erosion, also occurs (much more readily and in some cases extreme) and is easier to fix when the animals are controlled such as managed cattle OR horses or even better is a mixture of species, the key is timing, which requires management.

I will grant a small amount of mineral is "lost" when livestock are harvested, however certain numbers are taken by predators and also die naturally as well. Cattle daily deposit 4 lbs of nitrogen manufactured from cellulose, horses dung is much less "rich". Evil cattle ranchers also provide water for wildlife and usually do so without the erosion prone "pawing down to subterranean water" (wild horses dig wells!) What this behavior really is is a sign of drought and lack of water for any species, this is an act of desperation and if rain or rescue doesn't happen fast they are likely to perish in a rather "inhumane" way.

I am sorry but this quote(no author by the way) shows MAYBE that horses (and cattle) themselves have adapted to a new landscape ecologically speaking, it does NOT show in any measurable, scientific manner that horses running unmanaged provides any ecological improvement over any other domestic animal or human conservation type activity.

Virtually any (biological, ecological) argument FOR (or against for that matter) wild horses applies to cattle as well so trying to imply that wild horses are somehow "better" than cattle is simply that - a value judgment that is not really scientific in any way.

For me personally, the argument that these animals are a part of our historical heritage, that they are beautiful and have a non-economic value as a part of the scenery is a more honest and truthful approach than arbitrarily claiming they "benefit the environment". The extreme position of not allowing any culling and contemptuous disreguard for humans trying to make a living off the land is where you shut me down and turn me against you. I have no problem with sharing the landscape with these animals and I imagine it is a very small number of ranchers that want them completly removed. WHY can't some compromise be worked out? I don't know about the paying of ranchers to keep these animals as mentioned above, (I adopted a couple myself), but that actually sounds like a win win idea, or if not paying at least some sort of incentive, what is wrong with that?

[underseasurveyor]

85. Compromises have been worked out.

Like when the Wild Horse and Burro Act was passed there was approx. 300 or more places for these wild herds to roam. Now there are less than 200 of these herd areas. How much more land is the government going to take away from them?

You post is nothing more than your assertions and opinion and a matter of fact they are the same talking points I've seen on the various .gov BLM websites. Believe what you will, all governments lie and this particular administration is no exception. I would have thought you'd have caught on by now. There is always an ulterior motive motivated by sheer greed and money.

If we humans would once and for all get it through our heads that nature takes care of her own a hell of a lot better than humans ever will, and if we'd stop slaughtering natural predators like our wolves and mountain lions the herds will balance out and take care of themselves. But continuing to reduce the lands these creatures roam free on is no excuse to go in, round em up and slaughter them. When is enough going to finally be enough? When they're all gone? But then you have to toss in this materialistic measure of their "non-economic value" into the mix. If that is even a consideration, then you can't possibly know the value of anything. :ENTER: That fucking almighty dollar again :shakeshead:

So fine consider yourself shutdown and turn yourself against me for all I care, I do happen to be one proud "extremist" since labeling seems to makes ya feel better. If my contemptuous disregard for humans is to your disliking? That's your problem and I'm more than happy to let you keep it. Funny, rush limbaugh uses similar talking points when talking about fish versus farmers. :eyes:

[Kali]

89. you made the claim

"It has been proven many times over in this country and in Canada that wild horses do greatly benefit and actually enhance the native species without destroying the ecosystem."

Just wanted to see the "proof". You still haven't provided it.

[underseasurveyor]

91. Like it will it matter what I post

from any website? Be it an advocacy website or some other? You will just discount it anyway just as you have already done.

If I thought you really gave a shit I'd be more than happy too but it's plain to see that you're not truly interested in being anything but right.

Do a google search "wild horses ecosystem"
Ah what the fuck, here's a couple to start you off.
http://www.umanitoba.ca/manitoban/20031029/nf_02.html

http://www.api4animals.org/74print.htm

"The Wild Free-Roaming Horses and Burros Act was passed in 1971 in response to public outcry over the slaughter in large numbers of horses by free-lance cowboys working for the pet food industry. The law mandated protection from capture, branding, harassment, or death, and also for the first time classified the horses and burros as an integral part of the natural ecosystem. The Bureau of Land Management (BLM) administers the Act for the Department of the Interior."

[Kali]

102. Don't you have any objective sources?

The way science works, in general, is somebody has a question or problem they want to look at, so an experiment or a study is done and the results are published. Then other scientists read, and possibly try to duplicate the work or use other studies to confirm or refute the results. This is called peer review and while it is not perfect, it is how the system works. The sources you have given either just make claims with no back up data, or in the case of the quote above, are legal/political definitions NOT backed by any scientific work.

In the case mentioned in Canada "a biologist" was hired to do something, but no name or publication is given and in that case I would point out from the description it sounds like a much wetter environment than the US locations we were talking about, and also apparently contains grizzlies, a large enough predator to have an effective impact on both herd size and behavior. Nevertheless no citation for the study or even a name or credentials for the "biologist" - That is what I would like to read, not an article advocating something. Again, YOU made a claim that wild horses enhance the environment, I have NEVER seen or heard of any studies showing that. (and this is an area I have a lot of interest in, obviously) I would very much like to - especially in the arrid west. Good luck.

[NVMojo]

93. where do you live, Kali? State?

thanks.

[Kali]

101. Arizona, why?

may I ask

[Runcible Spoon]

95. then kick the fucking European descendants out!

Can't think of a better example of destructive nonnative population. Give it all back to the Native Americans. Hell, I'm of German heritage and I would back that!

[Kali]

100. heh

but then if you go back far enough the horses could return and the Native Americans would have to go back to Asia, ha ha

It is one of those conundrums when one wants to draw a line somewhere and Nature's continuums defy our plans!

[IHeart1993]

10. This shows just how far we've fallen.

These horses are a piece of American History.

[NVMojo]

14. Bush and Cheney courted the ranchers vote in Nevada and other

western states ...you know the rest of the story...

[ClintonTyree]

13. Halliburton has to give our Troops SOMETHING to eat........

and buying that darn FOOD cuts into the profit margin SO BAD!

[ailsagirl]

15. not funny

it's hard to find anything amusing about this kind of cruelty

[ClintonTyree]

22. To each..............

his own. It was not an attempt at humor. Satire. Look it up.

[ailsagirl]

24. Sorry if I misunderstood you... I'm not thinking clearly right now

[__Inanna__]

28. Sent the email

IMPLORING them not to do this. This made me so sad, I just cried ! (and it takes a lot to get me there). There has to be another solution. Please keep us updated. Thanks.

[ailsagirl]

37. Thank you for emailing the cretin

What you said goes for me too-- on all counts.

I'll keep you posted

[Kali]

34. Cruelty?

Starving in winter or living its entire life in a small pen is more cruel, to me at least than a quick blow to the head.

[KansDem]

19. Typical Bush on two points...

1. He's a "misfit"

2. Anything's "better'n wages..."



Bush would refer to this action as "mustanging"

[ailsagirl]

23. And I'd like to add...

that I realize not everyone thinks this is a big deal. But please, if you don't, please don't respond to the post. I am trying to be rational about this but I'm having a hard time doing so-- mainly because, as I mentioned, I cannot abide cruelty to animals. I have many causes, and this is right up there at the top.

Thank you

ailsa

[Benhurst]

25. I think it's a big deal, and I with you 100% on this. nt

[NVMojo]

26. alisa, it is a big deal cuz of the cruelty and also it is another link in

the Repuke chain to completely change the face of America ....destruction of animals, land, air, water, etc. leads to more destruction ....

[ailsagirl]

32. Exactly... it's more of the same BS from these goons

Of course they have no problem killing animals-- they send our people to Iraq to kill and be killed. They don't give a damn, it's obvious.

[LifeDuringWartime]

27. ~!

why would anybody see a need to kill 14,000 horses?

[Kali]

30. before you get hysterical, may I point out that yes indeed

thousands of cattle DO go to slaughter - in fact it is basically their whole point of existance. Next the horse is no more native to the north american plains than cattle are, so if one "belongs" then how can you possibly say another does not?

Unmanaged horse grazing is WAY more distructive than managed livestock grazing. Horses graze much closer to the ground and will paw the roots out of the ground when the leaf is gone.

I'm not up on the legislation but presently NO slaughter of wild horses are allowed so the BLM has been stuck trying to adopt out these animals or feed them in corrals. They can't let them go "WILD" as there are already too many running that way now. (no matter what the conflict with livestock, they will overpopulate because there are no preditors to contol their numbers)

I know nobody likes to think of majestic horses going to slaughter, but what kind of life are they living in pens in Lovelock Nevada? Its very much akin to the abortion debate - are YOU going to adopt all these unwanted animals? The Adopt-A -Horse program has been going on for I don't know how long (I adopted a horse and a burro) but they aren't even putting a dent in the numbers.

[ailsagirl]

33. Do not call me hysterical, please.

I am asking that you respect my feelings. If you don't agree, fine-- but don't bother responding then. This thread was meant for those of us who revere animals and I realize that not everyone does. It's not a debate.

I see no point in joining a thread just to needle people. And I consider name calling to be inappropriate.

[Kali]

42. Um, ok

I will apologize for implying that you were hysterical. The post WAS a little frantic. No offense to your feelings. I do however have say I don't think there is such thing as "thread ownership" and that the point of an open forum is to discuss issues. I think I am allowed to contribute my opinions and my knowledge of this issue. I am one of these western ranchers that is getting called a repuke, for the sole reason I have some knowledge of the subject. Never mind I have even adopted some of these same animals. Nevermind I FEEL they do have a place in the western landscape, that they should be allowed to remain. I just have a little bit of personal knowledge about animal impact, behavior, nutritional needs, and some opinion of what constitutes REAL cruelty and management of rangeland.

So I apologize if I insulted your FEELINGS, I only wish to have an impact on your THINKING.

[ailsagirl]

45. == no response ==

[Kali]

49. strange

the OP keeps editing their response, accusing me of name calling, not being "helpful etc, but hasn't actually ever talked about what I brought up in terms of real, on-the-ground questions of management.

[NVMojo]

57. when you realize this is about private profit, things could change

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A48739-2004Sep24?language=print

[Kali]

59. of course profit plays a roll

the article you sent is primarily about energy leasing - so if you don't want that fight it. One of the biggest hurdles in the rural/urban dichotomy and one of the reasons the rural areas have swung so republican is the lack of real understanding of what is going on ON THE GROUND, especially in the west. I see by your profile you are from Nevada. How much time do you spend on the land? Do you make a living from it? Or is it purly recreational (or spiritual)? I ask becaus one of MY issues is trying to bring more rural people BACK to the democratic ideals they all so obviously really believe in and to the Democratic party. The problem is when we have urban "do-gooders" constantly trying to impose their will on things that they seem to have no real undertanding of. (and to be fair the rural folks take for granted what they have and DON'T try to understand the emotional needs of all those "dogooders" to be connected to the land) And as usual you have the media trying to foment controversy rather than provide INFORMATION to either side.

Any way my point is the article you linked seems more like a call to limit energy development rather than save wild horses. It SOUNDS like they (that herd) have already been shoved to the limits that area can handle. Right or wrong, the point is something probably should have been done about that sooner. When the environmental movement uses "endangered" plants and animals as a hammer on rural people the strategy often backfires. By arrogantly assuming they know better and never asking any questions, much less listening to the local hicks they just make enemies.

I tried to interject some facts into your thread. You never addressed WHAT I said, this is a common occurance. I said I didn't know what the current proposal actually was - if I were you I would have got that information to me. Instead you claimed I called you a name (which I really did not) and you continue to have misinformation posted. The fact is the current total protection/no slaughter program is not working. Horses are not native, they are not critical to the ecosystem, though they can certainly be used just like other livestock as tools for restoration, they are in fact much harder on plants and soil than cattle are, and slaughter is not the same thing as cruelty. It may be cold and emotionally distressing, but cruelty implies suffering, at least to me. And I have seen starving horses, have you? I have seen wild animals walking small cages, have you? I know a little something, and I know it INTIMATLY, about the soil processes, the water and mineral cycles, the solar flow of energy, what causes erosion and what helps those soil processes to heal. I see life and death every day. They are part of the CYCLE of life itself. To me, you just see pretty horses and greedy ranchers.

[NVMojo]

63. while I appreciate your right to your opinion ...

you won't change mine. Cattle destroy it worse. Have you ever actually seen one of these herds?

Who cares if you called me a name, I missed it.

I do not make my living on "public lands". But I do watch Nevada politicians and the RED-necks out west pretty closely and I've watched this current flood tide against the environment and everything else "libs" have stood for grow for over 20 years or more and we have what we have to deal with today because we weren't paying enough attention as a group.

This is about greed, I've seen it in person.

So, peace and love, baby. May you be reincarnated as a wild horse near Cheney's house! just kidding!!! haha!

[Kali]

67. huh?

"you won't change mine. Cattle destroy it worse. Have you ever actually seen one of these herds?

Who cares if you called me a name, I missed it.

I do not make my living on "public lands". But I do watch Nevada politicians and the RED-necks out west pretty closely and I've watched this current flood tide against the environment and everything else "libs" have stood for grow for over 20 years or more and we have what we have to deal with today because we weren't paying enough attention as a group."


I guess I need to crash because this didn't rally make a whole lot of sense to me. Maybe we should both get some sleep and resume this in the morning.

Buenas noches

[NVMojo]

70. I felt the same way about your logic

later to you too.

[Kali]

82. well its interesting that you don't use any evidence in your claims

You wrote:

"you won't change mine. Cattle destroy it worse. Have you ever actually seen one of these herds?"

One of which herds? I am a rancher I have a herd of cattle so yes I have seen a herd of cattle, I have 12 horses running "wild" so while it is a small "herd" it is one, nonetheless. Both of these I observe on a daily basis, year round.


"Who cares if you called me a name, I missed it."

UH, I didn't call you a name I started a post with the words "before you get hysterical" based on the frantic sound of your original post. I also apologized for the implication in that statement. You did not missed it, you commented on it several times and changed your first post about it.

"I do not make my living on "public lands". But I do watch Nevada politicians and the RED-necks out west pretty closely and I've watched this current flood tide against the environment and everything else "libs" have stood for grow for over 20 years or more and we have what we have to deal with today because we weren't paying enough attention as a group."


The reason I asked, knowing the answer, was to illustrate the dichotomy between urban dwellers who view the land as a recreational or spiritual commodity only and are not depentant on it in an economic way, nor do they have any personal responsibilty for any particular piece of it. While I think both "sides" care deeply, it is hard to comprehend the other perpective, especially when it is advantageous to various parties to maintain controversy. This is wwhy when you go to a public lands meeting you have the cowboys all arguing with the environmentalists and everybody is yelliing at the BLM, but NONE of us are watching the developer laughing his way to the bank.

"This is about greed, I've seen it in person."

Some, yes I am not going to deny it. But it is also about different perpectives and about science.

"So, peace and love, baby. May you be reincarnated as a wild horse near Cheney's house! just kidding!!! haha!"

Yeah.



PS

Apologies for "name calling" mix up, thought I was conversing with the original poster.

[spotbird]

48. If horses were ugly, with warts, aggressive to humans as well as

harmful to the ecosystem, humane reduction wouldn't be an issue.

Horses are beautiful so this becomes an emotional issue.

[NVMojo]

35. the anti mustang side gets plenty of support

that is where the Republicans hang out.

[incapsulated]

36. Please foward this to Media outlets - NYT Link..

We should get this to TV media outlets as well!

http://tinyurl.com/454va

November 25, 2004
New Provision Would Allow Slaughtering of Wild Horses
By FELICITY BARRINGER

WASHINGTON, Nov. 24 - In a reversal of three decades of government policy that protected all wild horses, a provision approved by Congress last weekend would allow some of them to be sold to slaughterhouses.

The provision, attached to an omnibus spending bill by Senator Conrad Burns, Republican of Montana and chairman of the appropriations subcommittee with responsibility for the Interior Department, requires the sale of wild horses that have been rounded up and are more than 10 years old or have been unsuccessfully offered for adoption three times. The bill is awaiting final action.

The new language appears to override an existing requirement that those buying horses for adoption care for them for a year before assuming ownership, a hedge against horses being sold for slaughter. Now, the prospective law says, unwanted or old horses "shall be made available for sale without limitation."

~snip~

Advocates for the horses were furious that the legislation passed without a public hearing. "This went by so fast - it's almost like an autocratic government," said Karen Sussman, president of the International Society for the Protection of Mustangs and Burros. "What the government does, what the B.L.M. does, is try to do these massive gathers. They put 30,000 horses in holding areas and plead with Congress to pass sale authority to execute them."

[ailsagirl]

38. Many thanks, incapsulated (I like your name)

[incapsulated]

39. You're welcome!

And thanks. :hi:

[ailsagirl]

41. Help! How do I do a mass email to the media??

Thanks

[incapsulated]

43. I fixed the link n/t

[ailsagirl]

44. Thanks, incapsulated-- but how to I send this link to other media?

Isn't there a quick and easy way to do it? I thought there was, at least...

Thanks

[incapsulated]

46. Go to...

The top of the forum for the National Media list.

From what I've heard, it's better to copy and paste the whole article, then paste the link to the article as well, in your email. If you want to use the "tiny url" just right click on it and "copy shortcut" and paste that.

http://tinyurl.com/454va

[incapsulated]

47. Oh, and also..

click the "printer friendly" version, much easier to cut and paste. :)

[NVMojo]

40. Now this is where Cheney and Gail Norton campaigned for Bush

and the vote for Bush was overwhelming in this county ...

Elko vows to push for wild horse solution

Tuesday, April 13, 2004
ELKO -- Elko County commissioners said they will take the lead if necessary to push the federal government into controlling wild horse populations in Nevada.

"We have a lot of ranchers in the area and we have the responsibility to step up to the plate," Commissioner Charlie Myers said last week. "This really has a dramatic impact."

Chairman Mike Nannini agreed the county needed to spearhead action for a long-term solution to the growing numbers of wild horses.

"What we need to do is come up with a solution and it is going to have to start here," he said.

more....

http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2004/Apr-13-Tue-2004/news/23639189.html

and yet in January of 2004 ....

Wild horses disappearing

Herd rounded up because of drought may not return to Red Rock Canyon because mares too dependent on humans

....

The wild horses that once roamed the core area of Red Rock Canyon may never return to their stomping grounds.

That's the prognosis unless a drastic turn of events takes place with public lands management and the cooperation of Mother Nature.

After 18 months in captivity, wild horses that once populated the area will be put up for adoption next month. A large fraction of the herd was rounded up in 2002 at the height of the drought, which left many of them weak and starving.

The fate of the remaining 19 mares, all now in good health and most carrying unborn foals, will now be left in the hands of people who can continue to provide for them in a domestic setting, said the leader of the group who spearheaded the volunteer effort to protect them and return them to the range.

"It's hard for us. We're attached to these horses," said Billie Young, president of the National Wild Horse Association.

more...

http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2004/Jan-13-Tue-2004/news/22985805.html

[ailsagirl]

51. I just spoke to Karen...

and she said that the most important thing is for people to contact their representatives and let their feelings be known. This bill will be voted on Dec. 6th and signed Dec. 8th so time is of the essence.

There are 13 riders attached to this bill but the one about the horses/burros is #142. It needs to be removed.

She also mentioned calling the WH comment line at [phone] and letting your feelings be known.

These people have worked so hard to save the horses-- I remember reading an article some months back about a new herd this group had acquired and I thought "Ah... good news for a change." Now they're faced with this. :(

Here is a link to contact your representative. There may be better ones out there but this is the first I came across.

http://www.visi.com/juan/congress/

And please keep this kicked.

Thank you!!

ailsa

[ailsagirl]

52. kick kick kick

[ailsagirl]

54. kick

[NVMojo]

56. I just heard from the Western Shoshone Defense Project and they wanted you

to know this is about many things and in Nevada it is about gold mining more than anything.

Oil and Gas Hold the Reins in the Wild West
Land-Use Decisions Largely Favor Energy Industry

By Joby Warrick and Juliet Eilperin
Washington Post Staff Writers
Saturday, September 25, 2004; Page A01

PARACHUTE, Colo. -- The last sanctuary of the West Douglas wild horse herd is a desolate, forbidding place, which is just how the horses like it. As many as 60 skittish sorrels and bays make their home on the steeper slopes and stony ridges north of here, abandoning the valleys to growing throngs of oil and gas men looking for places to drill.

Now, even this refuge may soon be lost. The U.S. Interior Department, which has leased 93 percent of the horses' preserve to energy companies, recently unveiled plans for evicting the entire herd. Under the proposal, the animals will be rounded up with nets and tranquilizer darts and then hauled away for adoption. The reason cited: Wild horses are incompatible with the region's intensive gas production.

The removal of the horses, if accomplished, will be little felt outside the area. But the move to strip Colorado's West Douglas Herd Area of its only herd is emblematic of a larger effort underway to rewrite the rules governing millions of acres of undeveloped federal lands in the West. With few exceptions, the changes decisively favor energy development at a cost of reduced protections for some of the country's last wild spaces, a Washington Post analysis shows.

From his first days in Washington, President Bush has built an environmental record marked by extraordinary controversy, with decisions that have outraged environmentalists while drawing praise from industry trade groups and political conservatives.

more...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A48739-2004Sep24?language=print

[NVMojo]

58. please sign petition here at this thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1404030


thanks!

[gasolineboycottday]

60. This is so wrong...

Throw some food out there for these poor animals. We need these beautiful creatures. They were here first. The killing must stop.

[medeak]

64. rancher told me years ago

they should all be killed.. as mustangs have every bad gene they've been breeding out for 100 years and are worthless. (short legs, broad face, etc)

That's the mentality.

[NVMojo]

65. I've heard that too ....

what about their dumb cattle? Have you ever seen one get stuck in a corner of a corral? Possible inbreeding?

[medeak]

66. you mean "line breeding"?

LOL...that makes inbreeding all ok.

[NVMojo]

68. oh!!! I'd better go look that up!!!

[medeak]

73. that's what dog breeder called it

after I looked at papers and discovered my pup's dam and sire were half siblings.

Guess that's term relatives in Arkansas should use ;-)

[sundancekid]

69. should send an SOS and mayday to Robert Redford and Sundance

but I have no clue how to contact him ...

[Guarionex]

72. You mean they'll also kill...Shadowfax?

Gandalf's horse and his race is to be put to death? What?

[ailsagirl]

79. For those of you interested in this issue...

I have received some info from Karen Sussman that I promised I'd pass on:

What to do:
Call your Representative and ask them to remove the Rider #142 from the Appropriation Bill. House is due to meet on 12/6/04
Call Senator Conrad Burns of Montana and ask him to remove the rider from the Appropriation Bill. 202-224-2644 or 1-800-344-1513.
Call the President's comment line and tell him that you protest the slaughter of America's wild horses. [phone]
Call Senator Reid of Nevada and ask him to remove the rider from the Appropriation Bill 202-224-3542.
E-mail this letter to as many people as possible

For further questions:
Call the International Society for the Protection of Mustangs and Burros - 605-964-6866 or 605-365-6991

Future Plans:
A delegation of Native American presidents, chiefs, and spiritual leaders will go to Washington to speak with the President and Secretary Norton of the Interior. A press conference will be held in Washington. Our goal is to ask that the wild horses not be slaughtered and offer a solution to take excess wild horses to different tribal lands to protect the horses on those lands.
Introduce legislation to amend the Wild Horse and Burro Act to reinstitute protections in 109th Congress.

Current Situation:
ISPMB is the oldest wild horse and burro organization in the US and responsible for the passage of the 1971 Wild Horse and Burro Act that protected wild horses from slaughter.
ISPMB is the only organization in the US that manages wild horse herds.
ISPMB already manages three wild horse herds on the Cheyenne River Reservation. The Cheyenne River Sioux Tribe manages a fourth herd given to them by ISPMB.
Plans are underway to give a fifth herd to the Osage Indians in OK.
www.ispmb.org or [e-mail]
Thank you for helping our wild horses
Karen Sussman, President ISPMB

PO Box 55
Lantry, SD 57636

605-964-6866
605-365-6991

UPDATE:
Please stay in touch with ISPMB as we have the most current information on the legislation that will kill thousands of wild horses.

Please flood your Representative's lines asking that they remove Rider #142 from the Appropriations Bill HR 4818. Tell them that you will not stand by while our wild horses are slaughtered. The wild horses represent what our country stands for and that is FREEDOM.

Below is the Bill. IT HAS NOT PASSED THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. They meet on Monday at 2PM and work through Wednesday. There is time to STOP THIS!!!

Here is the link to the H.Rpt. 108-792 Conference Report to Accompany H.R. 4818 - Consolidated Appropriations Act, 2005. Click on Division E which covers appropriations language for DOI, either the text version or the PDF version, whichever you prefer.
http://thomas.loc.gov/home/omni2005/index.htm

=snip=

Below is how to access your Representatives and Senators. Call and e-mail.

http://www.webslingerz.com/jhoffman/congress-email.html

Call these numbers and e-mail

President Bush - 202-456-1111 [e-mail]

VP Cheney - 202-456-2461 [e-mail]

Senator Harry Reid - 202-224-3542
Senator Conrad Burns 1-800-344-1513 or 202-224-2644

For more information please contact ISPMB at [e-mail]

Thank you for your help!

Karen A. Sussman
PO Box 55
Lantry, SD 57636

605-964-6866
605-365-6991

[underseasurveyor]

81. Kicked and cross posted this contact info in the activism forum

Thanks for passing this on ailsagirl :hi:
:dem:

[NVMojo]

83. Amazing work, Ailsagirl!!!

KICK!

[ailsagirl]

86. Thanks, guys...

Kick

Man, do I have a lot of emailing/phoning to do tomorrow!!! :)

[ailsagirl]

87. NVMojo deserves the credit for bringing it up in the first place :)

[underseasurveyor]

88. Yes I should have, my bad..............THANK YOU TOO(( NVMojo))

I did give ya credit in the activism forum though ;-)

[NVMojo]

90. thanks for putting this in the activist section, I couldn't find it

and I don't eat meat ...

[underseasurveyor]

92. You are quite welcome my dear

And the eating meat thing is an irrelevant question to the government slaughtering more horses. Someone else is just trying to start more stupid shit in your thread ;-)

[cdp]

84. Anyone here a vegetarian?

I'll never understand how people can talk about terrible the slaughter of horses is on one hand, and munch a Big Mac in the other. I am not trying to antagonize, I am just curious. Is there a meat eater here who is really bothered by this horse issue?

[NVMojo]

94. Kick for Ailsa's info to contact!

[Desertrose]

96. NOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Damn...NO!
How can they????(stupid question!


Will fwd this like crazy...thanks so much for posting (I usually get this stuff)

[NVMojo]

97. thanks for all your true hearts and intentions

once again, ten years old is not old for a horse. Who benefits. Que bueno? Also ask.

[Desertrose]

98. It is just insane

I've been a horse person since I was 7...for a horse10 is still prime...
What are they thinking?? Why??

Money ....for someone...who already has more than enough I'm sure....sigh....

:hug: Thanks..have sent it it to all my like minded friends and even my repub sister...a horse owner!

[NVMojo]

99. kick again!

:kick:

[NVMojo]

103. ailsagirl and everyone else supportive of the horses

You should have seen the letters coming in from all over the country in support of the wildhorses and letting the cattlemen's industry have it between the eyes for the past couple of days in the local redneck paper.

One of the letter's even stated that rancher should buy their own land to do business on with their cattle! I guess it is all in response to the National Cattlemen's Association's recent letter supporting this rider. They probably had some guarantees from Cheney and Gail Norton when they went to Elko County stumping for Bush that this would get done for them.