Dean says we live in a Robin Hood world

[Cheswick2.0]

Still being outspoken: Dean says we live in a Robin Hood world...


http://www.nynews.com/newsroom/120304/a0103dean.html

SNIP.."The former Vermont governor said rich districts should share the wealth — like Robin Hood, the rich pay for the poor — and property-tax payers should bear the burden of making sure New York City children get an adequate education.

"It's a huge problem. This is not going to be easy," Dean, a Democrat, told more than 100 educators, politicians and fiscal managers last night at the opening banquet of the Citizens Budget Commission two-day conference at the IBM Center.

"There's no magic bullet," he said. "You will have a nasty, horrible, bloody fight."

Dean said it would take a collective approach.

"I think you have to decide whether you are all in this together or if somebody else's child deserves an education. We live in a Robin Hood world," Dean said. "I don't find what you call Robin Hood objectionable. The question is, 'how much Robin Hood?"

[okieinpain]

1. hey dean is the man. he should get the dnc chair. it's time to

shake up sand box.

[greenohio]

4. I heard that Dean was once DLC...is that true?

[w13rd0]

5. So was Gore at one time...

...but having watched this administration these past 4 years, both Dean and Gore are very much changed persons it seems.

[greenohio]

6. So its true? When did Dean exit?

[mzmolly]

89. When they slammed him as a Candidate for President I think.

:hi:

[Ladyhawk]

2. Stupid OT question: what's up with the paperclips?

Lots of people have paperclip avatars these days.

[samwisefoxburr]

3. I think the resistance towards hitler wore paperclips...

...I heard something like that.

Here is some more info.

[Hekate]

46. "We are all bound together": what a great idea

I'm so glad for the OT post, because I've really been wondering about DU's new avatar.

Hekate

[napi21]

7. There's another thread on DU that is trying to start our own opposition

to fascism by wearing a blue paper clip. It's inconspicuous, but would cause people to ask why.

Actually not a bad idea I think.

The RW has adopted the ribbon thing, and we need something of our own.

I guess there was use of the paper clip idea showing opposition to Hitler and that's what prompted the suggestion.

Here's the other Du thread on the subject:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=1399359&mesg_id=1399359&page=

[UnapologeticLiberal]

13. What do they mean?

What is the meaning of the paper clips?

[Cheswick2.0]

17. during WWII the Norwegians

wore paper clips on their collars as a sign of the resistance.

[Cuban_Liberal]

41. The Danes all wore six-pointed, yellow stars.

It was their way of defying Hitler in regards to the Jews. My great-uncle's family were saved by a Danish family, who took them in, hid them, and got them safely to Sweden.

[Cheswick2.0]

18. It is a symbol of the resistance

from WWII.

[KnowerOfLogic]

8. We really live in a *reverse Robin Hood* world, and most poor

folks don't have a clue. They really think that the robber barons shaking down America are rich because "they work hard."

[grilled onions]

9. An equal playing field

Our problem is the ones who have the upper hand,the rules on their side want complete control and they want the advantage to always stay in their court. The teams "them" and "us". Its difficult to win the game when we are forced to play by their rules(which change at whim whenever they find advantage another way)but every day we gain one more on our side. Every day another person loses their job,struggles to keep their family fed we "gain" another. Sadly many don't even realize it since they also seem to be the cheerleaders for the other "team". But to many of us the game is NEVER over and it can't be for we count on it for our very survival. After all we have as much right to winning our country back as they have been trying to take it away from us.

[janx]

10. kick for Dean and DFA!

[blackangrydem]

11. A "collective" approach?

Interesting choice of words. He will be attacked from the right as a wealth-redistrubutor (which is exactly what he is advocating).

I don't think this is a winning strategy. I think we stick to trying to create more wealth by increasing jobs ala Clinton.

[Cheswick2.0]

16. you seem to be talking about something completely different

he is talking about funding education not creating wealth.

[Hekate]

47. If education were truly valued, we'd pool our resources...

...without hesitation. We'd consider our taxes well-spent if every school got the same money per pupil. We do it with things like freeways. And smart bombs.

Every four years of my life I've heard the same political blather about valuing every child and how they're our most precious resource and how education is key to lifting up our whole nation.

But mostly people have the attitude that money for education should stay in the district, because it's raised off property taxes. As a consequence, the public high school in (for instance) Beverly Hills, CA is a super-primo place to send your kid, whereas the public high school in (for instance) South Central Los Angeles ... isn't.

Taxes are how we collectively pay for what we collectively need and value. In the past four years I have decided that contrary to what we Americans and our politicians say, the majority of the people in this country must actually value tanks, guns, and missiles far more than each other's children. Either that or the majority of Americans are not heartless, but are simply not paying attention.

No amount of individual wealth-building is going to change the situation as long as people believe that the only kids they are responsible for are their own.

Hekate

[Minstrel Boy]

12. I miss an America in which this man could be President.

Did it ever really exist?

- sigh -

[UnapologeticLiberal]

14. In hindsight, I am glad Dean did not get the nomination

Because based on the reasons Kerry lost, I doubt Dean could have won either, and if Dean had been the nominee, the DLC would have used his defeat as "proof" that the party needs to move to the center. If Dean runs again in 2008, I will be really torn, because there are other people whose names are being floated who might make stronger candidates, but I don't respect any of them as much as I respect Dean. I want to live in an America where someone like Howard Dean can be president, but unfortunately, I don't see it happening any time soon.

[Nordic]

24. Huh? At least tens of millions would have HEARD Howard Dean

actually say what needs to be said.

Anybody remember what Kerry said?

Ask your average Joe what Kerry stood for.

There's this little thing called e-voting which guaranteed a "loss" for Americans. I much rather would have had Howard Dean getting his message out and getting beat by e-voting rather than what did happen.

And a whole lot of Dems think we should move more to the "center" (which is right off the cliff if you ask me) anyway.

[Patriot Acts]

45. YES, Dean was our man for the job....

....what the hell happened?

Dean was a VERY strong contender, until he said he was for media reform. Go figure... the media shot him down very quickly.

[AP]

15. Property tax? Funny that he made that comment at the IBM Center.

Didn't he give IBM lots of property tax breaks as governor?

[Cheswick2.0]

19. thanks for kicking the thread

with your OT comment

[AP]

26. It's an opportunity to talk about property tax, which is good...

...for everyone.

[cali]

20. Gratuituous Dean put down

from you. What a shock. O.K., you didn't like the guy during the primary season, but surely you can see what a positive force for change he's been since dropping out- not to mention his stalwart support of Kerry/Edwards. Your continuing bitterness is a mystery to almost everyone who reads your snarky comments. What the fuck is the point? And yeah, he gave some tax cuts to IBM while he was Governor, though not nearly as much as they and the repubs would have liked. So?

[CTLawGuy]

21. no I understand

obviously, voting to send 1200 soldiers and 100,000 Iraqi civilians to their deaths and to shred international law as Edwards did is MUCH better than allegedly giving IBM a tax break. :eyes: Much more liberal and Democratic.

Gosh I wished I supported Edwards, what a brave, principled man :eyes:

[Cheswick2.0]

23. to say nothing of the union busting NCLB and the Fascist Patriot Act

:shrug:

[AP]

25. My problem with Dean is that people don't think of the issues with him.

And I think this story captures that fact. Dean gave a lot of tax breaks to IBM, and property tax did in fact become more regressive while he was governor. And, yes, he did try to use statewide property taxes to smooth over funding gaps for schools, but people rejected that, partly because they were already feeling the hurt from property taxes.

I just want to see politicans say we need money to make life better and that were going to collect money to do that from people in a fair manner. Dean should also be talking about not giving corps huge property tax breaks and not shifting the tax burden on to people in the bottom quintiles, both of which happened in VT, IIUC.

It may seem a little snarky for me to bring this up, but I wasn't impressed with Dean's talk about taxes in the primaries, and I'm the same person I was then that I am today: somebody who wants to talk about the issues and not attitude.

[JNelson6563]

27. You're so right AP

You haven't change a bit. You were snarky in the primaries and your are still snarky today. I'm sure many would be in shock ifyou were ever to cease your infernal sniping and negativity.

Julie

[AP]

28. If you want to talk about any post in particular during the primaries...

...I'll be happy to do that.

[JNelson6563]

29. Why bother with that?

Your snarky and snipey all the time, certainly you didn't limit yourself to the primaries. Sanrkiness such as yours knows no boundries.

But don't take my word for it, take a poll. You may find your reputation is rather widespread, judging by some of the PMs I've gotten....

Julie--who knows a class AA sniper when she sees one

[AP]

33. Because it would be fair.

[JNelson6563]

34. No, it would be pointless

I would never get into such an in-depth effort with a hair-splitter such as yourself. I have too busy of a life and do not share your penchant for endless nonsense.

Besides, your behavior today is just as it ever was, just as you claim. You don't really need evidence from me to back up a statement you first made.

Have a good one.

Julie

[AP]

40. Anytime you want to talk about taxes,

I'm ready. If I'm wrong about Dean, I'll admit it.

[Cheswick2.0]

35. I am not nearly as invested in Posterbation as some people

Most of us have better things to do. It looks like Julie agrees with me.

If you don't like the term posterbation you could substitute typerhia.

[AP]

39. Oh, I have a lot on my mind.

Es verdad. I'm not embarrassed about that at all.

[quaker bill]

31. Everybody gives tax breaks to business, so your point is?

Kerry and Edwards were all for giving tax breaks to business in exchange for what they considered "desirable" behavior.

Did you read their platform?

Virtually every candidate on the democratic slate during the primaries and the general election were talking tax breaks for business.

Republicans do it, Democrats do it.

Kerry and Kennedy voted for deficit financed military spending because the jobs were in Mass. None of them are immune from this sort of criticism.

The largest lameness of all was the "middle class tax cut". We already pay what is the lowest marginal tax rate of any industrialized country. We are running an enormous deficit, the schools are underfunded, and public services have been gutted.

It is not moral to fund today's spending on our children's credit. There is a "morals" issue for you.

Besides, as you have been told before, Governors inherit a tax code, many then try to reform it, like Dean did. However, it takes an act of legislature to do it. The rich did not want to pay their fair share in VT and lobbied quite successfully for a number of years to prevent tax reform.

[AP]

42. VT's tax code during Dean's tenure...

...shifted the burden off the top quintile and th effective rate of property taxation for the bottom quintile increased. He was governor for something like 12 years. At some point he was inheriting his own tax code, and IIRC, the difference grew. I believe that by 2000, the effective rate of property tax was seven times greater for the bottom quintile compared to the top quintile.

Dean brought people from Wall St to help him run VT and they came up with things that were very advantageouse for big businesses. Even Dean himself admits that he shouldn't have given IBM so many tax breaks. But you have to wonder what took him so long to figure it out.

Dean is great for pep talks and for making a narrow demographic very excited (much like Jerry Brown in '92), but in terms of policy, it's important to actually support candidates who will enact policies which will shift wealth and power down to the people. Dean said he was going to do that, but his tax policies were not going to do that. Dean didn't seem so interested in the relative burdens among people of different degrees of wealth, and didn't appreciate how making it hard for the middle class to do the job of making the economy work makes, well, the economy not work.

[Cheswick2.0]

53. And yet the liberal VT people elected him 5 times

imagine that.

[quaker bill]

57. Once again everyone was and still is giving corporations tax breaks

Kerry / Edwards ran on a platform of giving corporate tax breaks, virtually every candidate on the 2004 Democratic slate did the same. Clinton gave away corporate tax breaks. It was even worse in the 1990's. All of them have the effect of shifting the tax burden down the income scale.

Who are you trying to create a contrast with as an alternative?

Dean inherited a tax code that was quite dependent on the Federal government to equalize budgets for schools between wealthy and poor districts. Under the guise of "local control", the Federal government has been backing away from this role since Reagan. VT like every other state needed to reform it's tax code toward greater equity in funding. The VT legislature refused to do so for a very long time. It required hard choices. Dean did require them to get about it, but there were some ugly fights along the way.

On taxes, the much favored middle class tax cut didn't wash with the public on November 2. Why? First, because it was a half measure that did not fix the bedget problem. Second, because it validated the republican myth that low taxes are the way to economic growth.

Now if you believe that low taxes are the path to economic growth, there is no reason to vote for democrats because republicans will out tax cut us everytime. However, if you believe fiscal responsibility is the path to economic growth, both parties were offering the same solution, cut the deficit in half in 4 years.

The polling found tax cuts to be our lowest priority, but we offered one anyway. A good portion of it was "giving a tax cut to businesses that keep jobs here". If corporations don't need tax breaks, why did we choose a candidate who would run on them?

Finally, on taxes, what were the marginal tax rates during the post-war boom from the late 40's to the early 60's where the middle class was in fact built? Guess what, they were much higher than today. Taxes on the wealthy ranged as high as 70 to 90 percent. Taxes on the middle class were also substantially higher, we built many good schools, highways, and public works projects, and kept the budget and trade deficit much closer to balanced.

The country was built on good old-fashioned fiscal discipline, you know, do the hard work and pay your bills.

But but "Kennedy cut taxes...." they squeal. Yes, he did, from rates that were vastly higher than today to slightly lower rates that were still vastly higher than today.

Enough with the tax cut vodoo already.

[AP]

61. Low taxes are not the path to economic growth. Unburdening the middle

class relative to the top 1, 5 and 10 percent of the population is the path to economic growth. In one of the debates Edwards called the middle class the engine of economic growth and said that we cannot put the entire burden of paying taxes on the middle class if we expect the economy to improve.

The issue isn't cutting taxes for anyone. It's allocating taxes more progressively. All the candidates knew that except Dean. And all but Dean were exactly right.

The tax rates during the golden age of American economic growth were higher on the top tax brackets because it was so easy to make money when the economy was booming and when you you had a lot of money.

Tax codes have to reflect economic realtiy. Right now, the middle class can barely save money, but the top quintile gas gotten 10% wealthier every year of Bush's presidency (and this is despite an economy that is growing at a much lower rate than 10%). I bet that number gets even higher as you gow up the income ladder.

That number alone tells you all you need to know: if the middle can't save and isn't seeing their salaries increase and can't do as much with the money they have (and is in fact going into more debt) you cannot ask them to pay even MORE in taxes. But if the top 20%, 10%, 5% and 1% is getting wealthier by a clip ranging from 10% to who knows what, then you can certainly ask those people to pay a little more in taxes to reflect how well society is working for (only) them.

As for K-E running on tax breaks for corps, HUH? Edwards ran in the primaries on second higher bracket for cap gains income over 300K. That isn't a corporate tax, but it would have taxed corporate wealth realized as individual income more progressively. Furthermore, they both ran on closing tax loopholes that encouraged corps to send jobs overseas. I believe they both campaigned on putting pressure on tax havens to raise corporate income taxes.

Talking about this isn't tax cut vodoo. It's talking about one of the most important issues there is today.

[Cheswick2.0]

82. It is a governors job to bring jobs to a state

The only way they have to do that is to offer tax breaks where they can. Dean is doing what every governor does, democratic or republican. The quality of life in VT was very good under Dean, I don't think people were complaining in general...except the rich whoes vacation home taxes he raised.

[Radical Activist]

37. You mean Dean's liberal rhetoric doesn't match what he did as Gov?

Wow. What a shock...ok what else is new...move along...nothing to see here.

[Cheswick2.0]

50. nonsense

Get over the primaries. They're over.

[Radical Activist]

60. Fine...

I'll stop making posts about Dean if Dean supporters stop making constant threads about him and stop acting like he's still campaigning. If you make posts about Dean people are going to share their opinion. That's the whole idea here. It might also help calm things down if you stop the echo chamber effect with posts like this:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=244x870#882

Maybe you should take your own advice and stop being so thin skinned. The primaries are over.

[janx]

69. Nobody is acting as if Dean is still campaigning, because he's not.

He is, however, still pushing DFA and considering the DNC chair position--both of which are important if we're ever going to get anywhere.

[cali]

44. You don't know what you're talking about

I live in Vermont. I've been active in dem politics here for a long, long time.

"And I think this story captures that fact. Dean gave a lot of tax breaks to IBM, and property tax did in fact become more regressive while he was governor. And, yes, he did try to use statewide property taxes to smooth over funding gaps for schools, but people rejected that, partly because they were already feeling the hurt from property taxes."

Untrue. My ex is high up in the Vermont tax department and has overseen IBM for the last 15 years. IBMs tax burden in Vermont is higher than in practically any other state that they do business in. They've been moving business out of the state for a while now. Actually, the tax burden shift came from a Supreme Court case that Dean supported, not from a Dean initiative. He supported the case when it came up, and after the decision was made, he and the leg came up with the nuts and bolts of how to enact it. People couldn't reject it- It was the law of the state just like civil unions.

You've now proved,beyond doubt, your ignorance and bias. Good going!

PS. the tax burden in Vermont certainly didn't shift to lower income folks. Quite the opposite. That's why Stowe and other high income towns had such a snit about the Sharing Pool. Oh, I forgot, you probably don't know what that is.

[AP]

71. During the primaries Dean said that he wouldn't have given them the tax

breaks he gave them in retrospect. What was he talking about? He also built them a ring road in Burlington, right? And they ended up moving, or reducing their work force dramatically. And it wasn't just IBM. Didn't Dean bring with him a team of people from investment banks in NY to help him run the government? And what did that team advise? There was that whole thing about privatizing energy companies (and remember how Dean got most of his seed money for the presidential run from the energy execs he tried to help with that privatization?). During the primaries, I felt like I was in bizarro world reading Democrats here defend the privatization of energy companies.

As for that Supreme Court decision, wasn't that in 2000 or 2001? I vaguely remember it being at the back end of his tenure. During the primaries, Nicholas_J or someone posted a report on the property tax burden in VT. It showed that from 92 to 2000 or 2002, the effective rate of property tax declined on the top quintile and increased on the bottom quintile, and ended up being something like 4.2% for the bottom quintile and .7% for the top quintile. I have no idea what state laws would have resulted in that allocation of the burden. If the totals were based on all returns, corp and individual, then a lot of corporate concessions would drop that top quintile's burden because, no doubt, the companies getting the biggest breaks would definitely be in the top quintile.

By the way, unless your ex is a higher up in all the state's tax departments, how does s/he know what IBM's tax burden is in the other 49 states?

[cali]

85. You're so misinformed, I really don't feel like

continuing this but....

There is no "ring road". I think you're referring to what's know as the proposed circ highway- a far more complicated issue than I have time to go into here. It was never built. In other words, you're wrong again.

The school funding court case was not from 2000. The decision came down in Feb of 1997. Why don't you Google anything before making claims?:

Howard Dean did not bring in a team of Investment bankers to run the state. Prove it.

He got a very small amount of money from energy companies. Far, far, far less than Edwards got from ttrial lawyers.

Tax burden- One of the things that was instituted was the property tax rebate system for middle and lower income folks.

My ex absolutely knows what goes on with major corporations doing business in Vermont, in other states.

[AP]

87. Wasn't sure about the road...thus the question mark.

That it wasn't built doesn't get to the meat of that issue. I'd love to hear the whole story. Any links?

And I'm not googling because this is all stuff that was discussed here in the primaries.

If it's that important, we can search the archives.

Should we start with privatizing the energy company?

This isn't about the energy companies, but it's interesting: http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/03_32/b3845084.htm

Here's something about energy co's (plus a little more): http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Articles9/DVNS_Howard-Dean.htm#Finance

[high density]

43. Don't worry, AP just loves getting people riled up in any threads

which discuss candidates that may threaten his hero, John Edwards, in 2008.

[Cheswick2.0]

51. John Edwards is finished

He ran too soon.

[thedailyshow]

56. hahaha, fantastic!

[AP]

63. Actually, it's kind of revelaing in a sad way.

[AP]

62. I think people who overidentify with candidates personally tend to respond

to me by attacking Edwards because they think I'm like them -- that this is about me overidentifying with Edwards.

But guess what? I liked Edwards because of where he stood on the issues. In this thread I'm crticizing Dean because of where he stood on the issues.

Edwards may be gone. But Dean is still bad on the issues.

[lojasmo]

67. SO you're a fan of the Iraq war, the patriot act, and NCLB? RIght on!

:eyes:

[AP]

70. Here's what I think of those issues:

- Iraq War: as John Kerry said, the IWR vote was the best way to keep pressure on Hussein. Had the senate voted against that, it would have taken away a great deal of leverage. Furthmore, it wasn't a vote for war. The buck stops with Bush. If he choses to exercise that authority in a bad way, Bush is responsible for his bad actions, and not Democrats. Furthermore, I bet if yous ask twenty DU'ers for whom this is such an important issue whether they think Bush has culpability for 9/11 (ranging from, he knew all about it to he stood down on defense knowing that something like this would happen), 17 of them would say yes. To those people, I say: if the senate voted against this, what do you think the future of the Democratic party would have been if there were another attack on the US? Perhaps 100 years in the wilderness. For the fascists there would have been an incredibly huge incentive to make that happen.

Americans do not ellect presidents who do not act like they would defend America on a hair trigger. It didnt' work in '68 or '72 during a war that was much worse than this one. Say what you will about the IWR vote motivations. However, Iowa showed people what voters thought about being anti-war. And to think that Kerry or Edwards want to go arround the world starting wars is absurd beyond belief. I see it as them doing what they knew they needed to do be able to become president so that they could stop wars. And thank god the voices of Democrats who wanted to burn them for their "Sophie's" choice were very weak and tend to turn up in what has amounted to three posts here at DU trying to attack me personally for my choice of candidates since the 2.0 rampage.

- Patriot Act. Only one Senator voted against the Patriot Act. And his biggest objection to it was that he felt that the 50 states should be allowed to interpret it according to state law. He was willing to let the law pass, but thought state courts should be the final authority on its provisions. Other senators thought that 50 different interpretations of each provision would make it impossible for the FBI to handle cross-border matters. Even that one senator said that much in the act was worthwhile. It's absurd to measure a candidate by whether they voted no on that entire act. If I'm going to make any concession based on 9/11, it's that it would have been very hard to win another election if you voted no on that bill. And it's not like Edwards is even wrong about it now. He wants to get out all the bad parts and keep all the good parts -- and there's little or no disagreement between Edwards and other liberals over which are the good and bad parts.

-NCLB -- you mean Ted Kennedy's bill? NCLB promissed a lot of money to schools. The problem with it, as everyone agrees, is that Bush didn't fund it.

[Toby109]

76. You forgot the context for the IWR vote.

9/11 was not Vietnam. It happened on LIVE TV only a year earlier than the vote. That is the way the neo-cons wanted it. I am sure that Rove could, by that time, have figured out at least three of the major candidates in '04, Kerry, Dean and Edwards. So he made them commit, and one way or the other they were screwed. As an early supporter of Kerry's I was extremely pissed at his vote. He was running unopposed and Edwards wasn't running at all. Robert Byrd stood up in the Senate to try to expose the loophole about granting war prerogatives to the Executive Office but no one listened or cared. It is written in our Constitution that war can only be declared by Congress. Those that brought that up in 2002 were branded as traitors or old-fashioned. Imagine that. Someone sworn to uphold the Constitution is not a patriot? I'm not saying that Kerry or Edwards is necessarily at fault because the IWR vote was driven by the neo-cons. But they did nothing to stem the tide. When they could have.





In 1990 GHWB was persuaded to delay a vote until after the midterms so that politics would not play a factor and that decision was the correct one.

[lojasmo]

80. So it's all about electability

Fantastic. That's what I vote on too.

I think we should nominate Kerry/Edwards for 2008 RIGHT NOW! <sarcasm>

[lojasmo]

84. How did that work out, anyway? ;-) N/T

[AP]

88. It did better than the anti-war candidates Dems ran in...

...68 and 72 in the middle of America's most shameful war and most shameless politician ever.

You think running anti-war candidate was going to win in 2004?

There are a lot of strategies I think Democrats are afraid to use because they underestimate the public's willingness to be moved by them (or they're afraid of offending very powerful interests) but could be much very successful. Sadly, I don't think being anti-war is one of them. I'd rather elect someone who won't take us to war than run on that theme and lose to a president who will.

[lojasmo]

93. We lost.

You can't do worse than that. You can only do better....winning. Numbers are irrelevent when the stakes are so high. Running to the right of center and hoping the base will follow didn't work this year, and it certainly won't work in 2008 when bush is no longer a threat.

[AP]

65. Actually, I like talking about the issues.

I'll admit. I was lucky that Edwards was such an effective vehicle for talking about the issues that I care about. However, Edwards or no Edwards, these are my issues and I'm goig to talk about them. So this isn't about Edwards running in 2008. It's about trying to get people to think about the implications of the things Dean says.

[orpupilofnature57]

22. ROBIN HOOD IN REVERSE,stories about europe not merrica

[rainbow4321]

30. How Texas of him...

Texas already has a "Robin Hood" plan, <and YES that is the official name of the plan>...and it is finally, FINALLY, after TEN years, been declared UNconstitutional by the state courts.

My city alone has had to give $50 MILLION per YEAR in our local property tax dollars to the state so they can distribute it to other parts of the state. The state developed the "wealthy vs poor" school district lists 10 yrs ago---the "wealthy" districts get to send the local property taxes to the "poorer" districts. My property tax dollars recently built a high school for another city. One that MY kids won't get to attend.
Because of the new court ruling, the state now has to come up with a new plan.

http://www.dailytexanonline.com/news/2004/09/17/StateLocal/Texas.School.Districts.Welcome.Robin.Hood.Ruling-722183.shtml

Hundreds of Texas school districts are celebrating Wednesday's court ruling, which declared the state's school finance system unconstitutional.

"The judge recognized the constraints that Austin and other Texas school districts are facing," said Dave Duty, director of intergovernmental relations for the Austin Independent School District. "We feel vindicated and are hopeful."

State District Judge John Dietz found, after a 26-day trial, that the current school finance system, known as "Robin Hood," fails to provide sufficient funds to all school districts - especially those in property-poor areas. The system takes money from property-tax rich districts and distributes them to poorer ones.

[shance]

32. Hi. I come from Texas too. Highland Park to be specific.

The reason the "Robin Hood" proposal didn't work has been due largely to big money litigation and the intentional hobbling of the RH proposal at every turn.

Its no surprise in reading the article you posted which shows the same cast of indiviudals that have no real record of legislation designed to balance out the more than significant imbalance of wealth. Seems evident that they are more motivated to serve their own self interest, many times at the expense of a great deal of other Texans.

I would also imagine there was more money spent on preventing the success of Robin Hood, and scaring the state silly through a massive PR campaign than there ever was due to the proposition itself. The imbalance of wealth in Texas is like many other states: pretty huge and not healthy with regards to any kind of balance.

One thing that is probably the best indicator of how the wealthier districts are faring would be to drive by the wealthier school districts themselves. Highland Park Independent School District is doing just dandy and shows no signs of neglect, pain and/or suffering due to Robin Hood. In fact, the indoor tennis courts and astro turf stadium look just as great as they did when I lived there and went to high school there myself. There are also many benefactors that are happy to donate money and buildings in their name.

Im not saying it should be a free for all to take an unreasonable amount of funds from a certain district, of course, if you read the article, neither is Howard Dean. Its comes from a place that addresses responsibility and doing what is in the highest interest of every Texan and/or American.

Keep in mind, much of this wealth created, is produced off the backs of those just trying to get by and succeed in their own right.

[rainbow4321]

58. Plano here...

I live in Plano and knowing the area, you probably know that it has been labeled one of the "wealthy" districts..unfortunately the areas that have been eliminated to make up for our loss of funding goes beyond just buildings and tennis courts. The whole social worker dept was gotten rid of. They tracked and helped the kids here who come from troubled homes, have attendence issues, and other personal problems that interfere with getting an education. The districts solution: let the counselors and and the teachers do that job from now on. Gee, I am sure that group of people have LOTS of time on their hands to do all the follow-ups with the troubled kids...NOT.
Teachers and principals are being forced into early retirement, with 1/2 the teachers not being replaced in some of the schools.
Kids that do extracurricular sports have to pay $50-$90 to be on a team..so if you have more than one kid in school you have to pay the fee for the first two..the rest get to play for "free". They were nice enough to put in a rule that kids who qualify for reduced prices for lunches don't have to pay the sports fee.
The list of school supplies we have to buy and send each year gets longer and longer every Fall. Right down to the 2 boxes of Kleenex per kid that are turned into "community" supplies in the classroom.
The state can't touch any money raised by bonds, so every so often the city puts a bond issue on the ballot so we can do some maintenance on the schools that are 20 + yrs old. Can't use our property tax money to do that since the majority of that goes to other people in Texas.
Yes, I feel badly for the poorer districts but why have a system that brings down all the districts? Eventually you will end up having all the districts at a crummy level with staff that has minimal experience when all the experienced teachers are laid off and then what?
I hope they figure something out soon...because districts like mine are being drained dry and at some point someone has to say enough is enough, let our taxes go towards our kids.

[Rose Siding]

72. Your definition of "our kids" is narrow

The kid who grows up to make change at the supermarket and the one who drives the EMT bus and the ones who perform our surgeries are all "our kids" and we better educate all of them, not just the ones who live in our homes.

Paying to play extracurricular sports is a GREAT idea if it frees money for books and teachers in low income districts. And everyone is now having to pitch in with school supplies! Who's more able to do that?

[lastliberalintexas]

73. That's caused by local administration problems

not the Robin Hood plan in Texas. The fact that Plano ISD cut social workers and programs that actually help students instead of its DISTRICT RADIO STATION/STREAM simply tells you that the people running PISD have misplaced priorities.

Texas still has tremendous disparity in school funding, which will only get worse after our next Lege session when the repubs rewrite school finance laws. While there are schools in the Valley which don't have enough textbooks for their kids, schools like Plano will still be running their radio stations.


If you truly want to reform Texas education, run for your school board. I recently saw an article about a woman in Roud Rock who ran and won- which was only amazing and noteworthy because the majority of her campaign was based on being against the $25 MILLION football stadium that the district had built, all the while cutting other services. The same article or story mentioned that stadiums which were either approved or being considered for schools in the Dallas area would cost a total of $200 million if all were completed. You might look more to the Plano sports program (esp football) rather than Robin Hood.

[shance]

81. Robin Hood has nothing to do with this. School council members do

on the other hand.

Robin Hood is simply a shift in the disbursement of funds. How the funds are prioritized and utilized is a WHOLE other issue.

You're from Plano, big football of course.

Have you checked to see how those football/sports funds have been affected? I'd wager they haven't been touched, or are increased in the yearly budgeting of items.

On the other hand, the arts, I would imagine they have been hit hard. Such is the priority in much if not most of the Texas districts.

[PurityOfEssence]

36. Um...shouldn't that be a "Robber Baron" world?

and getting worse.

[AP]

95. And property tax is part of the robber baron strategy.

Kevin Phillips comments in Wealth and Democracy that property tax, although progressive in principle, operates very regressively.

A progressive tax is one that takes into account how much money you have when it decides how much to tax your next dollar. The fewer dollars you have, the more utility you have for a dollar, so you shouldn't be charged the same rate on that dollar as someone who has more dollars.

So, property tax is basically a flat rate based on the value of your house, which may or may not reflect how much money you have (and if your state assesses property values the way California does, it could REALLY have no relationship to your income or wealth).

And, even worse, as Kevin Phillips notes, most large corporations don't even pay property taxes. So, when property taxes are used to raise revenue, usually that's a burden that falls largely on individuals.

We actually live in a reverse Robin Hood world where the government takes from the poor and gives to the rich, and one of the ways they do it is through property taxes.

[peekaloo]

38. More like Monty Python's 'Dennis Moore'

steal from the poor, give to the rich....Dennis Moore, stupid bitch.

[SweetLeftFoot]

48. Confused

I know they have lots of trees up in Vermont but for a second I thought Dean was suggesting we should all wear green tights and miniskirts with triangles cut in them and hunt the King's Deer for food and be all merry and that.

Being less of a smartypants - as an Aussie, it still amazes me that Dean, who would easily fit into the right of the Australian Labor Party, is considered in any way radical. The man speaks sense but goes nowhere near the real goal.

[Cheswick2.0]

49. He's no conservative

HE is centrist on some issues and liberal on others. Trying to say otherwise is bullshit.

[SweetLeftFoot]

52. What I meant

... was that in Australia, he would be considered ... maybe, maybe ... centre-left. Most likely he'd be on the right of the Australian Labor Party (the Left party). As you say, he's a centrist.

[Cheswick2.0]

54. that is not what I said

I said he was centrist on some issues, liberal on others. That is the fact about Dean. To say otherwise is just not smart.
You should know that he was elected 5 times by a very liberal state as governor. Trying to put him in one particulary box is nonsense.

[SweetLeftFoot]

55. My point

Is that even vermont, what is considered a very liberal state of the US, would not be considered especially liberal in Australia or Europe.

The entire basis of US politics is predicated on right-wing positions that simply do not hold in Europe/Australia. That's what I'm saying.

[cali]

59. I don't know enough about Australia to really comment

but my neighbor lived in Australia for several years. She's English; her parents moved to Australia, and she doesn't believe Australia's terribly liberal at all. So how is Australia more liberal than Vermont? How much do you know about Vermont?

[arcos]

66. the "center" in most western countries is much more to the left...

But that's not because the other countries are left leaning, but because the US is so far to the right...

[cali]

68. That doesn't even remotely address my question.

If people make claims, it behooves them to back up said claims.

[arcos]

86. jeez, sorry...

I'm not the original poster, so I can't answer what the mentioned person exactly said... :eyes:

[arcos]

64. that just shows you how far to the right the "center" is in the USA... n/t

[mattclearing]

74. Thanks Howard.

I buried this in the middle of a post in the election forum, and I think it applies here.

Personally, I think taking over the party with a Howard Dean mentality is the solution for the Democratic Party's woes.

Real progressive leadership on social issues with an economically pragmatic fiscal policy should be the way it gets done.

I recently said that love or hate Dean, at least he knows what we are up against. Most of the current Democratic establishment doesn't understand how the Republicans do what they do, or why. Can't say that with Dean.

He knew about Diebold and the threat they posed back during primary season.

He knows guns are a loser issue for us.

He knows that gays deserve equal rights and that Republicans are trying to appeal to our worst nature, and was happy to say so on national TV.

He knows Republicans will never balance the budget, as they are happy to be the party of "cutting your taxes" while we are the party of "balancing the budget." We used to be the party of social programs. People do not understand why a balanced budget benefits them, because in the short term, it doesn't.

In the meantime, the Republicans are handing out cash while we promise nothing.

Unfortunately, the voting machines are unreliable. Voting fraud is the only issue that matters because we will never win again until it is addressed.

I would say:

1. Expose the fraud. Fix the problem, make it foolproof. Paper ballots counted and regulated by nonpartisan commissions.

2. Purge the party of Bush apologists and people who believe "They are winning, so let's do what they do." These people should be smacked silly, they are doing Republicans' work for them.

3. Run true progressives, who are smart, know what they believe in, and who are not afraid to verbally bitchslap Republicans who talk silly "terrorism" "soft on national security" "raise your taxes" "liberal" nonsense.

Kerry was afraid to call George Bush a liar. Why? Because the "liberal" media would have castigated him for it?

He looked like a chump. And he got played like a chump.

[Cheswick2.0]

78. Very good analysis

You have written one of the best perspectives I have seen on DU regarding Dean.

When I first decided to support Dean in the primaries I thought about his fiscal policies and realized that he talks like I think. I am careful with my money. I don't spend what I don't have and I don't run up debt. So I was able to look at his fiscal "conservatism" for what it is, and not react as if he were opposing social programs. Then I was able to see what he actually did for the people of VT in terms of improving their lives. He is incredibly talented at working with in the perameters of reality and sticking with what is ethical when a real challenge comes along like the gay union legislation or the War in Iraq. He says what he believes is right and wrong and not just politically convenient.

[mattclearing]

79. Thanks,

and a high-five on Dean working within reality. That is the best thing about Howard Dean, is that he sees the many angles and works for what is possible.

[Johnny Noshoes]

92. What I like about Dean

I also like that he says what he believes to be right. He's a trained scientist- doctor - and knows how to deal with reality. Investigate the problem, come up with a diagnosis, and work to fix the problem. If the solution doesn't work like any good scientist you discover why it didn't, come up with a new approach and try again.

I also think he would be great as DNC chair and get this party moving again.

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron."
-- H.L. Mencken (1880-1956)

[shance]

83. Thank you. Great points.

n/t

[TheDonkey]

75. Yikes, that is a tricky statement

and that's the thing about Dean.

I would NEVER say something like that, or expect Democrats to say something like that. Sounds very socialist and "unfair".
BUT, I wonder if other Americans would like someone who isn't afraid to be in your face Democrat. Sort of how * is ridiculous talking conservative, maybe people would like to see an outrageous Dem, rather than a cautious one. Very interesting.

[mattclearing]

77. See my statement above.

People like integrity and honesty. Minnesota wasn't as liberal as Paul Wellstone, but they respected his passion.

I think Dean kinda blew it by not tacking to the center when it was clear he could wrap up the nomination. By continuing with unnecessary Bush-bashing and anti-DLC campaigning, he left himself wide open to an "Anybody But Dean" campaign.

Bush would have had a hard time making him a flip-flopper, or a tax and spend liberal. The soft on national security thing would have been difficult for Dean to combat though, as there was a bit of a question mark over his head on that, outside of Iraq.

I don't think he can become President, but I do think he is the man for the DNC.

[shance]

90. How do you define unfair?

Do you believe having a different color of skin, being from a different social/financial class, being a woman, disabled, elderly, or an individual in a relationship with someone of the same gender should should be license enough to keep you excluded from opportunities and advancements that many white privileged males take for granted, expect and feel entitled to as their birthright?

Many feel they have little or no responsibility to give more than those who will never see the opportunities that many white Anglos have had, simply because of their gender, financial status, familial connections and the color of their skin.

Im not saying white males arent discriminated against as well. Of course many of them are, even moreso on an economic, financial and/or classist level. Keep in mind however, that many of the white privileged individuals, or those privileged in general who have grown up with access to more opportunities than others have more of a responsibility to give back to the community at large.

With that said, giving does not always have to be financial, although, since that's at this point what makes the world go round that should be part of the deal if one is able. Giving of ones time, ones experience, one's connections, ones abilities. Those are all powerful ways to give back as well.

Also why has giving been "given" such a bad name?

I guess because in a conditional capitalistic environment there is always a winner and a loser. Thats a bad framework both physically and mentally to live under. Giving should be more of an investment in improving our overall environment and community. Its as beneficial to the giver as the receiver, if one has the ability and consciousness to see it.

With that said, I believe giving should be both ways in order to create more healthy interdependency, or else most often those on the receiving end (which are all of us at some point*)won't fully appreciate whats been given. I think that's human nature.

With that said, the idea of giving has been promoted and perceptualized as being a one way, noble deed, instead of a type of bartering or transaction, or movement of energy that creates a better world.

And Im not talking about qualified capitalism and Donald Trump's "art of the deal" manufactured spin, although that has its place (in the trash bin*), but its not even being organically or certainly authentically performed here in America. We are being told we have capitolism, but we don't have true capitalism.

However, with that aside, Im talking about creating a community where the principles that are valued the highest are doing what is right and what is fair for everyone. If that is socialism, sign me up.

Giving seems to have been saddled with the perception that someone is being "picked on" when in reality, its an opportunity in whatever capacity to invest in improving their community. However the financial giving is the beginning, the actual physically getting involved in active in one's community is also what we all need to be doing.

[janx]

91. Sounds "socialist" ? What about VOUCHERS?

Those sound commie by comparison. ;-)

[ThorsHammer]

94. One "Robin Hood" idea that I like

A higher inheritance tax (or "death tax" as the far right calls it). When they cut it, they kept on bringing up the idea that it was done to protect family farms, despite the fact that no farm would have been saved by it and the savings largely went to people like the Gallos (?) and other very high net worth individuals. Given a choice betweeen higher revenues through income tax or inheritance, IMO inheritance is a no-brainer, as at least those facing a high income tax actually earn their money. Other than the tiny minority of super-rich people, I can't see who would oppose the idea of raising their tax rate. Something like this could be a good way to transfer money from people who have done nothing to earn it, to those who truly need it.

I'm late to this thread, but think Dean's message is right on target. It is definitely a huge problem and won't be easy, but must be addressed and fixed. I'm one of the more conservative DUers, and would have no problem with paying a little more if the money is used for a good cause like education.

[Cheswick2.0]

96. Isn't it funny TH, when you ask people if they would pay higher taxes

for something like education and healthcare they almost always says yes? And yet they have no idea of why they vote the way they do.

[ThorsHammer]

97. Great point, and I think someone like Dean needs to stay with his message

Like you said, almost everyone claims to support education and healthare, but stronger laws/funding don't go through. I really hope someone like Dean, who is fiery and has a national name, needs to stick with this. IMO, the Democratic party could make great gains by re-emphasizing the economic side of things. I am not advocating abandoning the social side, but choosing to stress the fiscal side instead. A lot of fiscal policy carries over to social policy as well - healthcare, education, job security, helping the needy, and so on.