Don't attack conservatives. REAL conservatives are our natural allies

[blm]

against the neo-cons and the reactionary right.

Please note that many real conservatives are disgusted at Bush's reign and loathsome of the people Bush is putting in power. Please bear that in mind when you post. We need every patriot we can for our battles ahead, conservative and lefty. Don't let the labels tear this nation apart...that benefits only the fascists of BushInc and exposes the rest of us as easily played fools.

Here's a reminder for you from lifetime Republican and son of Ike, himself, John Eisenhower.


    Why I Will Vote for John Kerry for President
    By John Eisenhower
    The Manchester Union Leader

    Tuesday 28 September 2004

    The Presidential election to be held this coming Nov. 2 will be one of extraordinary importance to the future of our nation. The outcome will determine whether this country will continue on the same path it has followed for the last 3½ years or whether it will return to a set of core domestic and foreign policy values that have been at the heart of what has made this country great.

    Now more than ever, we voters will have to make cool judgments, unencumbered by habits of the past. Experts tell us that we tend to vote as our parents did or as we "always have." We remained loyal to party labels. We cannot afford that luxury in the election of 2004. There are times when we must break with the past, and I believe this is one of them.

    As son of a Republican President, Dwight D. Eisenhower, it is automatically expected by many that I am a Republican. For 50 years, through the election of 2000, I was. With the current administration’s decision to invade Iraq unilaterally, however, I changed my voter registration to independent, and barring some utterly unforeseen development, I intend to vote for the Democratic Presidential candidate, Sen. John Kerry.

    The fact is that today’s "Republican" Party is one with which I am totally unfamiliar. To me, the word "Republican" has always been synonymous with the word "responsibility," which has meant limiting our governmental obligations to those we can afford in human and financial terms. Today’s whopping budget deficit of some $440 billion does not meet that criterion.

    Responsibility used to be observed in foreign affairs. That has meant respect for others. America, though recognized as the leader of the community of nations, has always acted as a part of it, not as a maverick separate from that community and at times insulting towards it. Leadership involves setting a direction and building consensus, not viewing other countries as practically devoid of significance. Recent developments indicate that the current Republican Party leadership has confused confident leadership with hubris and arrogance.
>>>>

http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/093004U.shtml

[gingergreen]

1. thank you! the bridge must be gapped

in order for peace to ever prevail.

I always wonder how the word "conservative" was so turned around.

Real conservatives stem from "conserve"... ahem like with the environment.

Another noteworthy truthout.org article...

http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/112504X.shtml

[NewJeffCT]

5. welcome to DU

And, you are correct. I wonder if Barry Goldwater would be welcome in today's Republican party? After all, this guy who was too radical for his day was pro-choice, pro-environment & pro gays in the military.

[Telly Savalas]

56. Did Barry Goldwater support the preservation of the New Deal?

I don't think so.

While some past figures of the GOP may not be as contemptible as the current crop, that doesn't mean that "real conservatives" are our natural ally. This is nostalgia for a past that didn't exist. Who are these "real conservatives" that we're supposed to long for: Ronald Reagan? Joseph McCarthy? Herbert Hoover? Thanks, but no thanks.

Some past Republicans like Ike and Nixon (with regard to domestic policy) may not have that bad, but that's because they weren't conservatives, but rather moderates.

There's talk of Bush betraying traditional "fiscal conservatism", but such Republican fiscal responsibility is just a myth. You have to go back 47 years to find a balanced budget signed by a Republican president. (By the way, the balancing was achieved by maintaining tax rates that would be called socialist these days, not through adherence to dubious principles of "small government".) Furthermore the notion of traditional conservatives being stewards of morality is a myth too. If Old School conservatives had had their way, we'd still have separate water fountains with signs stating "white only" and "colored" above them.

Wanna know what a "real conservative" looks like? Try visiting the White House webpage.

[bpcmxr]

6. I have stopped using the word 'conservative'

to describe these people. 'Regressive' is so much more accurate.

[Zorra]

22. I agree, "Regressives" is a much more accurate word. n/t

[blondeatlast]

24. "Radical" is even more os. nt

[newyawker99]

51. Hi gingergreen!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[wtmusic]

2. Attacking people for their beliefs never achieves anything

Though radical policies turn moderate democrats into the "reactionary left", it's the policies that should be attacked and exposed.

[MatrixEscape]

3. I agree wholeheartedly!

The real conservatives + the Christian Left are really a major front in the struggle to turn things around. We should welcome them with optimism.

The question is, at what point are they really going to boil over? As long as they are looking to the mass media, things look just spiffy.

[rman]

4. correct. Why did so many repubs vote for Clinton?

because they found the "moral values" their Party was promoting, way to extremist.

[seemunkee]

7. Turning old line repubs against the party

So how do we get old line republicans to go against their party and join or at least vote for the Dems? I've argued, gently, with several and there always turns out to be ONE issue that they are really voting for. Most often it is tax cuts or abortion. I know abortions have risen under Bush but I find the tax cut thing harder to argue. Even when they are against deficits I find these people are dead set on getting their cuts.

[blm]

8. Do they believe that babies should inherit Bush's deficits?

Tax the babies.

[seemunkee]

23. Too long term

And doesn't appeal to their greed.
The younger people aren't even thinking about what is going to be handed down to them or the next generation. All they care about is the here and now. They are already buying into the "ownership" society thing.

[wildeyed]

15. My inlaws are 'old line'.

From talking to them and being around them for years, I get the impression that there are lots of cultural issues. The in-laws are pro-choice and do not oppose gay marriage. But talking about sex makes them really nervous and they are still closet homophobes; my father in-law says thinking about gay sex makes him very nervous. There is also the racism thing. And they are greedy. And they live in the south. So on individual issues, they seem progressive, but in reality, they are still ruled by their primal prejudices and the repubs are very crafty about appealing to those urges. The christiany thing played a huge role, too. Bush positioned himself as the christian brand, and they bought that falsehood completely.

How do we get these voters? My opinion, get a southern candidate, then talk their language. Position him early as a god fearin' family man who is not afraid to kick ass. Talk about abortion and gay marriage as little as possible, these are not winning issues (please note, I don't think we should abandon these causes, just position ourselves differently in the debate.). Then we talk about economic justice and make many veiled references to Jesus.

As far as tax cuts go, Bush's cuts only benefit those making 200,000 or more per year.

The CBO study, due to be released today, found that the wealthiest 20 percent, whose incomes averaged $182,700 in 2001, saw their share of federal taxes drop from 64.4 percent of total tax payments in 2001 to 63.5 percent this year. The top 1 percent, earning $1.1 million, saw their share fall to 20.1 percent of the total, from 22.2 percent.

Over that same period, taxpayers with incomes from around $51,500 to around $75,600 saw their share of federal tax payments increase. Households earning around $75,600 saw their tax burden jump the most, from 18.7 percent of all taxes to 19.5 percent.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5689001/

Banning abortion doesn't stop it, only forces it underground. If people really want to decreas abortion, they increase social services to poor mothers.

I look at the fruits of political policies more than words. I analyzed the data on abortion during the George W. Bush presidency. There is no single source for this information - federal reports go only to 2000, and many states do not report - but I found enough data to identify trends. My findings are counterintuitive and disturbing.

Abortion was decreasing. When President Bush took office, the nation's abortion rates were at a 24-year low, after a 17.4% decline during the 1990s. This was an average decrease of 1.7% per year, mostly during the latter part of the decade. (This data comes from Minnesota Citizens Concerned for Life using the Guttmacher Institute's studies).

Enter George W. Bush in 2001. One would expect the abortion rate to continue its consistent course downward, if not plunge. Instead, the opposite happened.

http://www.sojo.net/index.cfm?action=sojomail.display&issue=041013#5

So there are some facts on those issues, but good luck getting your people to listen, I have never had any luck. Sadly, spin and marketing are far more important than actual truth.

[ibegurpard]

9. If real conservatives were our allies, they would've done something

a long time ago. They are the ones who continue to support the right-wing fundamentalists and the neo-cons even when their policies fly in the face of what conservatism is supposedly all about. I'll support them if they actually do more than write the occasional hand-wringing column but they're the ones who made the deal with the devil and until I see organized opposition within the Republican Party to the fanatics, then I'll consider them to be supportive of what the fanatics are doing and planning.

[blm]

10. What if the media made as big a deal out of Eisenhower and Iacocca as they

did Ed Koch and Zell Miller?

There were plenty of examples of Republicans who thought Bush was WEAK on terror and military issues, but they received the barest acknowledgement. Richard Clarke was a Republican, fer chrissakes, but they wouldn't book him during the last few months before the election.

It's always the same bottom line....the GOP controls the media.

[ibegurpard]

12. For every one of those

there's a Safire, who will write an occasional dissenting column, or a McCain, who will occasionally speak out against a policy, who, when the rubber hits the road, are right there supporting the agenda of the right wing. Now, if the idea is to somehow disassociate conservatism from radicalism and label everyone who doesn't vociferously dissent from the direction the Republican Party has taken as a radical then I can get behind that. But they're not our allies if they're lending support.

[blm]

19. That's exactly what I'm saying.

Real conservatives are finding it increasingly difficult to see conservatism in the extremism of the radical right.

That differentiation is worth emphasizing.

[blondeatlast]

25. Far more outstanding examples, too.

But the media has no time for thoughtful argument anymore.

Brittany might be getting married again ANY MINUTE.

[BurgherHoldtheLies]

11. Republican supporter of Kerry who even gave $ to the Dems....

For the first time in my life I gave money to a political party...and the party was NOT the one in which I am registered. The socially liberal/fiscally conservative Republicans have no party now. Some of us realized it in time for the 2004 election but some will realize over the next few years. The religious radicals have taken over the Republican party and they can have it. I really hope the Democrats don't spend the next years fighting each other...you're the only hope for the future.

[wildeyed]

16. Someone made an interesting point to me recently;

the Republicans are no longer in charge of the Republican party, it is the Dixiecrats, the politicians who left the democratic party in the early 60's over the civil rights act, who are running things now. Many things about the modern republican party began to make sense to me after I heard this.

[BurgherHoldtheLies]

17. Wow, that's it....that is exactly the group in charge...

Thanks for the insight.

[blondeatlast]

29. SO TRUE--David Brock makes that abundantly clear in

"The Republican Noise Machine."

I'm listening to it on my commutes now; fascinating--and scary as hell.

[Blue_Roses]

52. that's exactly right and I had a thread on this very subject a few days

ago! These are the people who have taken over the Republican party, no doubt!

[blm]

18. Thankyou. My hope is that more Dems understand you are our allies.

.

[blondeatlast]

28. Thanks for your trust and welcome to DU.

:toast:

Your post reminds me of something another DUer posted that someone told her (a foreign national): "Once america is no longer our hope, what is?"

Sobering thought. I hope we can be YOUR hope.

[WindRavenX]

13. Neocons are the real enemy

Conservatives, true ones, are rare.

[ComerPerro]

14. Face it. Most conservatives are just party-line hacks

They will do whatever Bush tells them, and they will think whatever Limbaugh tells them to think.

There are some, as in the example you posted (which I have read before) who see neo-cons as a threat to this country. But they are few.

[zaj]

20. Stop calling them "conservatives"... they are "regressives".

The real conservatives are a dying breed that should be protected for the sake of our country.

But stop calling them "conservatives"... the people we talk about around here are actually "regressives".

[BurgherHoldtheLies]

21. Not dead yet

I'm a wife and mother of 3 young children...not quite ready for a nursing home just yet. My moderate republican family can generally be classified as upper-middle class professionals who are socially liberal/fiscally conservative. We are not some strange minority, nor are we a freakish anomoly. Those of my friends/family who did not vote for Kerry don't believe that Bush will REALLY implement that radical right-wing agenda..I, of course, believe he is one of the radical right-wing. Time will tell which is correct.

[zaj]

27. I consider you and yours an ally... fight to take back your party!

America needs you and needs to support you.

[ThorsHammer]

30. Some of us are here

I'm more of a moderate (conservative relative to most DUers, liberal next to neocons), am still registered Rep., but did NOT vote for Dubya. If the events of the last few years (Iraq, bad economy, etc) continue, many fellow moderates will keep on coming over. There are also many fiscal conservatives who are displeased with Bush's reckless spending, and a 3rd party guy like Perot may run next time if it continues. The current Rep. leadership can only go so far right before it starts alienating more people.

[blondeatlast]

32. Welcome to you as well.

There seems to be very little "conservatism," as I've always understood the word, in the Bush agenda.

The reckless spending doesn't even seem real to me; my admittedly smart Republican friends are just flabbergasted.

And they voted for Kerry, even if they had to hold their noses to do it.

FWIW, I'm pretty far left, but I see plenty of room for those like you; even I see the need for a limit to government powers and spending.

[ThorsHammer]

33. Thanks for the welcome

I don't see much conservatism at all: Reckless invasion of Iraq (although I did support the war in Afghanistan), reckless tax cuts, reckless spending, and reckless relationships with the whole world. To be blunt, the word reckless sums up his presidency more than the word conservatism.

Given the events of the last 4 years, I think there are many Reps. who voted for Kerry w/o having to hold their noses to do it. The ABBers had a point, and Kerry was a pretty qualified man with actual plans.

[BurgherHoldtheLies]

34. We need to unite with the Democrats

I even called the PA Democratic party to ask that they reach out to the moderate Republicans in the blue state of PA. I may even volunteer to help the PA Democrats defeat Santorum (if they'll let a moderate Republican work for them). I have never been politically active in my life but I feel that things have reached critical mass. I hope more moderate Republicans will wake up and join the Democrats in removing the zealots from power.

[wildeyed]

37. So what woke you up?

I have many republican friends and family who I would put in the moderate camp. But they will not focus on the issues. If I try to make a point with facts,they brush me off as a nutcase liberal, even though they know that my views, issue by issue are very similar to theirs. It is like they are being willfully ignorant so they don't have to take any action or think or something.

So what I want to know, what pushed you over the edge into the Kerry camp and how can we facilitate that change in other moderate republicans?

[BurgherHoldtheLies]

40. The radical evangelical agenda became Repub mainstream

I was aware of the Jerry Falwell/Pat Robertson types in the mid-80s and early 90's but they were perceived as extremists. They even ran their own candidates AGAINST the Republican candidates. As the Republican party began catering to the religious extremists, I first thought they were just giving them "lip-service" to get their votes. As the 90's progressed I began to realize that they had BECOME the Republican party and the message to moderate Republicans has become sharper over the years: "If you don't agree with our agenda of criminalizing abortion, blurring the lines of church and state, and forsaking science in the name of religion, then we don't need the moderates." Okay, then, let's see how many elections the Republicans can win in the future if they only address the extreme right evangelical agenda. I realized the danger of these people in 2000 and voted for Gore (It was a vote against the born-again Bush and hoping to keep the Clinton financial years going, more than a vote for Al Gore). The financial irresponsibility of this administration, the go-it-alone foreign policy that alienates us from the rest of the world, and the religious extremist domestic agenda have totally severed my allegiance to the Republican party.

[wildeyed]

42. My husband, an ex-repub, now independent,

could have made this statement: The financial irresponsibility of this administration, the go-it-alone foreign policy that alienates us from the rest of the world, and the religious extremist domestic agenda have totally severed my allegiance to the Republican party. He considers himself a centerist, not a repub or dem. But why can some see past the spin and others cannot? Or is it just a matter of time until other moderates catch on?

[BurgherHoldtheLies]

43. Canaries in the mine shaft???

I know a lot of moderate Republicans who 'woke up' after the 2000 election and supported Kerry. Unfortunately I also know some moderate Republicans who still believe that Bush won't really implement a right-wing agenda...they think he is only giving lip-service to the evangelicals.

There used to be a TV show when I was little called "Lost in Space" and there was a robot that used to wave its arms and call out, "Danger, danger, Will Robinson" whenever there was some threat. Every fiber of my being is screaming "danger, danger" and I trust my instincts!!

[wildeyed]

44. I know allot of republicans who remind me of ostriches

with their heads in the sand. They keep saying, well he is not all that bad...... But I'm with you, danger, danger.

[BurgherHoldtheLies]

41. Lack of accountability in this administration is also a reason

The buck never stops with this administration and I find their "lack of ownership" appalling. Some examples:

Poor economy===>Inherited recession from Clinton
Rising deficit===>911 and war on terror
No WMD in Iraq===>Poor intelligence
Alienation from allies===>The French

etc., etc. Nothing is their fault and it's amazing when you consider the Republicans control the House, Senate and POTUS. The Democrats really need to play the "ownership society" theme against them.

[blondeatlast]

31. I hope you're wrong, but I think you are correct.

I know a few others like yourself who have seen enough of what's happened in the past 20 years that they, too, voted , donated, and volunteered for John Kerry.

It would be very hard for me if I had to leave the Dems; I'm a 4th generation yellow dog Dem. I don't know if it was that hard for you, but I can see how you felt the need.

[BurgherHoldtheLies]

35. PUSHED out by the radical right...and thanks for the welcome.

Things are so skewed to the radical right now that personally, as a moderate Republican, I do NOT find the DU forum to be extreme left and Ted Kennedy sounds good to me now. That's how hard the rapturist right-wing has pushed...I was a Reagan Republican in my first election!!!

[DistressedAmerican]

26. Old School Conservatives Despise Bush

I know the end is near as I frequently find myself agreeing with ultraconservatives like Pat Buchannon and George Will (o.k. I've always kind of liked Will). Its an odd feeling. But these folks hate the war and the out of control deficit spending (right now $25,000 per person is what we each owe). I agree most strongly with those two positions.
DA

[norml]

36. I call them "The evil movement that calls itself conservative"

The word has become corrupted from it's true meaning by them. Another way to put it is to place the word "Conservative" in quotes for this debate. Look at what they've done with the word "Liberal" and you want to leave the labels they put on themselves alone? I'll not put down my weapons when confronting their evil "Conservative" cult. For myself I proudly say "Conservative = Nazis".

[Bouncy Ball]

38. Can you imagine a post like this on a conservative website:

"Don't attack liberals! REAL liberals are our natural allies!"

Yeah, I can't either.

[norml]

53. "Don't attack liberals! REAL liberals are our natural allies!"

You got that right Bouncy Ball. A post like that on any "Conservative" web site would get you banned.

[blm]

54. Actually, a REAL conservative website would say that.

But, there are too many claiming to be conservative when they are actually royalists and radical rightwing reactionaries.

[chaska]

39. They are REGRESSIVES. Say it often. Make it stick.

These are not Conservatives.

[Book Lover]

45. Yes, but they will toe the line

and not reach out to *us*. Seen Andrew Sullivan lately? He ain't talking about health care for all. I'd rather reach out across the aisle to my Green Party brothers and sisters.

[UpsideDownFlag]

46. um....no. conservatives like who, pat buchanan?

geez.

[BurgherHoldtheLies]

47. No, the privacy rights and fiscally responsible Republicans....

Like me.

[UpsideDownFlag]

48. buchanan is fiscally responsible and hated the patriot act.

him and his ilk also loathe abortion, gays, etc.

which of these issues do you disagree with him about, and if so, why are you still a repub?

[BurgherHoldtheLies]

49. Separation of church and state is paramount....

Criminalizing abortion and homophobia are primarily issues of those who wish to legislate their personal religious beliefs. That is not me or my moderate Republican circle of family/friends. We are socially liberal (live and let live) but fiscally conservative (we are horrified at the deficit spending. Also, we have supported paying higher taxes IF the cause is justified).

I find I have more in common with Democrats now than my own party. I may take the time to actually switch my registration but not totally clear to me what direction the Democratic party will take in the future.

[UpsideDownFlag]

50. fair enough. nt

[LittleClarkie]

55. If you go to www.antiwar.com you'll find

it's a Conservative site.

I thought it was telling that the Libs and Greens are working together. In some ways they have things in common.

Also, no one talks more anti-war and gets away with it than some of the true Conservatives.

A fiscal Conservative friend of mine thought seriously about voting for Kerry, but was afraid of what a political transition would do to the soldiers on the field. As a PAGO guy, Kerry was a close to a fiscal conservative that we had in this race. At least he's fiscally responsible.

I agree. There are Republican conservatives and moderates who are NOT happy campers right now, who care about the war and conservation and a myriad of other things that we would not find foreign.

I will find my "Republicans for Kerry" link list when I get to work and post some urls. They're trying to keep active too after the election. I used to print out some of their flyers and take them to Kerry HQ. Some approached it from a business perspective, explaining why Bush should be fired. Interesting to watch.

And then there was the one Republican who watched someone get thrown out of a Bush rally for having "Protect Civil Liberties" on their shirts. He announced he was voting for Kerry, fairly proudly. He felt he'd seen the face of fascism at that rally.

Republican doesn't mean blind. Some don't give a tinker's damn for the social Conservative agenda.

[norml]

57. Kickity kick kick kick!

I like this topic.