527 group purpose was to bring down Dean......

[rainy]

Americans for Jobs, 527 group, leader, David Jones just said on c-span2 that the sole purpose of his 527 was to bring down dean. They wanted Gephart. This is unbelievable. Didn't we wonder about Gephart and a secret group making ads against Dean? This it the group, no?

[Renew Deal]

1. Were they coordinating with Gep.

That's the real scandal. Otherwise they are no different than SBVT.

[Cheswick2.0]

6. and Kerry

Kerry's fundraiser Torricelli was also coordinating and donating to that group.

[blm]

32. Kerry denounced that ad when it came out. He had nothing to do with it.

Torricelli raised money for lots of Dems. You can't blame Kerry for Torch's involvement in giving money to that labor group.

Did you raise a ruckus with the Dem's who funded the campaign to follow Kerry around with Flip Flops? Waffles? Cases of Busch-Lite beer?

[JaneQPublic]

68. Actually, it was KERRY folks who brought waffles to DEAN campaigners...

...but the Dean folks gobbled them down with pure Vermont maple syrup.

With regard to Torricelli and Kerry's role in the Iowa Dean smear campaign, this from PoliticsNJ:


Torricelli boasted last February that he had raised over $100,000 for Kerry, and had been part of a group that was reportedly advising the campaign on strategy. But following news reports that Torricelli was a major ($50,000) donor to another 527, Americans for Jobs, Healthcare and Progressive Values, which ran television advertisements in Iowa that helped build huge negatives for the front-runner, HOWARD DEAN, the Kerry campaign asked Torricelli to stay under the radar screen. The ads used images of Osama bin Laden, implying that Al Qaeda would thrive under a Dean presidency.
http://politicsnj.com/September_2004_ROLL.htm


And this from Counterpunch:

Why is one of the sleaziest former public officials helping Senator Kerry collect campaign cash? And now that Torricelli and other Kerry campaign donors have been "outed" for supporting the controversial group, why hasn't Kerry been directly asked about the entire controversy? Indeed, why hasn't the avowed campaign finance reformer publicly criticized either the caper or Torricelli? Kerry and his campaign staff declined to answer these and other related, on-the-record questions from the Center for Public Integrity. A Kerry spokesman, Chad Clanton, was quoted in the Washington Post as saying that "I am told no one knew anything about it."
http://www.counterpunch.org/lewis03062004.html

[Eloriel]

75. Oh, no, he didn't "denounce" it -- at best he wanly disassociated

himself from it. But that was no denunciation. In fact, it was disgusting -- at the time, and now.

[blm]

103. Kerry was the ONLY one who condemned the ad yet you all blame him.

Because nothing he has ever done has suited you.

Too bad that Biden-Lugar didn't pass. Dennis Kucinich could have used the support as the only real antiwar candidate.

[arcos]

152. and working with Harken Energy to screw third world countries... n/t

(Torricelli, that is...)

[AP]

9. Did they tell lies about Dean? I honestly can't remember.

What did their commercials claim about Dean?

[janx]

24. One ad featured "skeery" music and the face of Osama Bin

Laden.

The implication was that should Dean be the nominee, another OSAMA attack was possible.

You don't remember that?

[NYCGirl]

28. Pretty much the same type of thing that the Republicans did to Cleland,

and you know how we hated it when they did it.

[sangh0]

121. The ads had no lies that I remember

just innuendo.

[newsguyatl]

45. their coordination concerning this group

and some behind the scenes action cost dean iowa.

[janx]

66. ...thanks for posting.

Thank you so much, newsguyatl.

[Eloriel]

79. To fill out the picture --

they ran the ad just as Kerry was making a full-court press on being "electable" while everyone and their brothers were denouncing Dean as "unelectable." Meanwhile Vilsack in Iowa got all the local Iowa papers to run editorials on the subject. The Osama ad and the "electable/unelectable" memes were quite a good one-two punch.

And oh -- according to Gephardt's own long-time friend, consultant, employee and dirty trickster, Joyce Abouzzi, Gephardt was promised a "prominent place in the administration, maybe even VP." The unions who ponied up for this ad were NOT pleased and they did disavow it.

THEN they put into motion a LOT of dirty tricks -- calling Dean's A list with robocalls pretending to be from the Dean campaign at all hours of the night; calling Dean supporters and telling them the wrong location for their caucuas; and more I'm not remembering.

THEN Edwards and Kucinich made that improbably backroom deal to switch caucus votes to one another -- :wtf:

THEN the Vilsack political machine was out in force DURING the caucuses and railroaded a lot of (sadly) inexperienced, poorly trained and probably naive Dean caucus goers. Some of THOSE stories would turn everyone off to caucuses forever -- they have me.

THEN there was the scream speech, followed by

New Hampshire tooooooo close to Iowa to pull it out (tho he was definitely making superb gains and might have pulled it out with 2 or 3 more weeks, but that's precisely how the DNC planned the primary season, so they could NEVER again have a Jimmy Carter sneak up on them by all that grassroots organizing shit.)

And THAT, my friends, is how it went down in Iowa.

[eridani]

90. On that Kucinich/Edwards thing--

--you are forgetting that both were running well behind at the time. You make deals for caucus support swapping with other people bringing up the rear, not frontrunners. The frontrunners don't need to do that, because they will presumably not have trouble making threshold.

[Gman]

2. Looks to me like they did a pretty good job

I don't know why this would be unbelievable. That's the way hardball politics works.

[Cheswick2.0]

7. what makes this different from the swiftscum liars?

[NoPasaran]

16. The Swiftscum at least were Rethugs

The Osama ad was pretty disgusting coming from fellow Democrats. Certainly a lot dirtier than we ever got against Busholini during the General Election campaign.

[FubarFly]

31. Exactly.

Why the hell would Democrats throw the works at Dean, but treat Bush with a soft touch?

One of the few advantages I saw in the way Dean lost was that at we could look forward to Bush getting the same treatment. Afterall, he actually deserved it.

Oops.

Or should I say, ops.

[BurtWorm]

114. Good questions. Those Americans wanted Dean's head more than jobs

I guess.

[AntiCoup2K4]

3. This isn't exactly a new revelation.

At the time, it was well known that Kerry, Gephardt, and Torricelli were behind the smear. At least now this scumbag admits it.

[martinolich]

5. ..Kerry, Gephardt and Torricelli?...appalling..

..I had heard that he was "assassinated" so to speak, by MSM - but that it was instigated by the DLC, those A*sholes...Are the three accused tight with the DLC?...I know Torricelli was eventually put down by scandal, and I've heard Kerry was the DLC's "man" all along, but I must admit to being surprised by Gephardt...

[madfloridian]

4. There are many articles about this.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/12/17/elec04.prez.dean.osama/

It was more than just Gephardt.

[AP]

10. The stupidest thing about that ad (after reading that article) is that it

might as well have been an ad FOR Bush.

If that's what Gep supporters thought the election was about then I'm not surprised their team was out of it after Iowa.

[InvisibleBallots]

64. Dean helped split the AFL-CIO during the last election

and Gephardt represented the unions on the other side of that split. Dean got AFSCME and SEIU behind him - while Gephardt retained the support of many of the industrial unions.

The key issue was outsourcing. Dean had a pro-outsourcing, pro-free trade record when he first came in. AFSCME and SEIU are not nearly as vulnerable to offshoring as the industrial unions are.

The ads smearing Dean were inexcusable. But Dean supporters didn't get what this election was about either, evidentally.

[madfloridian]

67. This election was about the status quo. And keeping it.

We admired and supported him because he had the courage to try to change it. He still does. We still do.

[InvisibleBallots]

69. not to a lot of people I guess

I am not angry that the industrial unions backed Gephardt, nor am I angry that AFSCME and SEIU backed Dean, I hope we cal all working together to win Congress in 2006.

[madfloridian]

70. I never had a choice.

37 states never had a chance to vote for him in the primaries. Sorry, but that is true.

[InvisibleBallots]

71. Gephardt?

Yeah I know, he dropped out after Iowa.

[madfloridian]

74. No.

You knew what I meant. Dean quit campaigning in Feb., and we never got a chance to vote for our choice in the primaries.

[American Tragedy]

115. MOST people don't have a real chance to vote in primaries

Just once I would like to be able to vote in a Democratic presidential primary before the nominee has already attained the requisite delegates and been selected. It is ridiculous that so many states are arbitrarily shut out of the process.

[madfloridian]

116. 37 states had not had their primaries when HD dropped out.

37 states had no chance to vote in a meaningful way from a full slate of candidates.

[SoCalDem]

72. That's what democratic primaries are ALWAYS about

creating ads FOR and giving ammo TO our enemy..

Before our candidate is even chosen, the other side has ample ammunition for whichever candidate emerges..

There needs to be some serious looking at this shit.. I , for one, am sick of it..

It's pretty stupid to be throwing MILLIONS of dollars down a hole every few years to just have the "behind-the-scenes" creeps ooze out from behind their slimy rocks...so they can pat each other on the back about the BRILLIANT...LOSING campaign they just ran:puke:

[lojasmo]

8. Old news

Americans for jobs is a bucket of slime, backed by Kerry and Gep staffers.

[barbaraann]

11. The truth about party power (Walter Karp)

"To put the matter as concisely as possible: insofar as a state party is controlled at all, the sole abiding purpose, the sole overriding interest of those who control it, is to maintain that control. This, not election victory, is the fundamental and unswerving principle of party politics in America, and the full implications of that principle of action, the extent to which it governs the deeds of party politicians from the most obscure to the most eminent, are the burden of all that follows in this book."


http://www.justicedemanded.org/nh2.htm

[madfloridian]

86. What a interesting statement from that article!

SNIP..."In 1918 when an insurgent group, known as the Nonpartisan League, beat the regular candidates in the Republican primaries of North Dakota and Idaho, Republican regulars in those states made the same choice. In the general election, they threw in with the opposition Democrats to defeat their fellow Republicans. In Iowa, four years later, Republican regulars worked strenuously to elect a Democrat when an insurgent Republican won the party's Senatorial nomination and for the same reason: the election of those Republican candidates threatened the regulars' control over the state party. To put the matter as concisely as possible: insofar as a state party is controlled at all, the sole abiding purpose, the sole overriding interest of those who control it, is to maintain that control. This, not election victory, is the fundamental and unswerving principle of party politics in America, and the full implications of that principle of action, the extent to which it governs the deeds of party politicians from the most obscure to the most eminent, are the burden of all that follows in this book."

[sangh0]

122. FDR was well-known for doing similar things

He once supported (quietly, but not silently) several Republicans against their Democrat rivals, because FDR thought those dems were too isolationist and uncontrollable by the party, and he believed (and rightfully so) that the US would soon be required to enter into war with Nazi Germany.

[bemildred]

125. Walter Karp rocks.

If you are befuddled by what just happened, Walter will explain it for you.
May he rest in peace.

[Snivi Yllom]

12. Jaysus Frikking Christ!

this is the kind of shit that makes me want to send money to the Greens or the Republicans just to vote these cocksuckers out.

[zulchzulu]

13. Dean and Gephardt were exchanging attack ads pre-Iowa

Dean attacks Gephardt:
http://www.gwu.edu/~action/2004/ads04/deanad111703.html

Gephardt attacks Dean:
http://www.gwu.edu/~action/2004/ads04/gephad112103.html

More ads followed. Remember that Dean and Gephardt were leading in the polls in Iowa and the other candidates just let them fire at each other...guess what happened.

[madfloridian]

14. Not just those two guys. More.

From Dean's new book.

SNIP..."He says the worst moment of all came near the end of the campaign. Just before Wisconsin. He says it was infuriating, for example, "to go to NH and see people at our rallies with Confederate flags, knowing they'd been paid to do it by another Democratic campaign." Then he mentions the secret PAC formed by the Democrats to go after him in Iowa...mentions Torricelli.

SNIP..."The night I found out about the Torricelli donation, all I could think about was how low our party had sunk and how little I owed them. It was by far the darkest moment I'd had....it was a real crisis of faith. "
(There is more, but this is the gist of it).

Do a search on this. Charles Lewis did a really good write-up on it.

[zulchzulu]

19. What does Dean say about Trippi in his new book?

I haven't read it yet.

As for Torricelli, there is no defense on attacking fellow Demmocrats. That is the ugly, unfortunate fact that the primary season gets so bad.

I think Gephardt and Dean got into a death spiral with attacking each other and turned off the voters. Whether Dean's attack ads were funded by whoever and Gephardt's attacks ads were funded by whoever is almost a moot point.

[madfloridian]

22. Dean admits he did his share of attacking....he did his in public.

Howard Dean was quite open with his attacks, not undercover.

He said nothing about Trippi in his book.

Again, it was NOT just Gephardt.

[Cheswick2.0]

25. Nope

There was a concerted effort by people in the party to stop Dean and they funded those Osama smear adds. It is not the same thing at all. Nice try though.

[Cheswick2.0]

23. we are not talking about regular campaign adds

we are talking about the 527 smear adds that Gephardt and Kerry people coordinated on.

[madfloridian]

15. Here is Charles Lewis's "A Political Mugging in America."

http://www.public-i.org/report.aspx?aid=194&sid=200
Political Mugging in America
Anatomy of an "independent" smear campaign

On November 7, 2003, a strange new group no one had ever heard of called "Americans for Jobs & Healthcare" was quietly formed and soon thereafter began running a million dollar operation including political ads against then-frontrunner Democratic presidential candidate Howard Dean. The commercials ripped Dean over his positions or past record on gun rights, trade and Medicare growth. But the most inflammatory ad used the visual image of Osama bin Laden as a way to raise questions about Dean's foreign policy credibility. While the spots ran, Americans for Jobs—through its then-spokesman, Robert Gibbs, a former Kerry campaign employee—refused to disclose its donors.

The Dean campaign cried foul, but no one, including the news media, could figure out exactly who was behind "Americans for Jobs." The disturbing mystery was partly solved by Jim VandeHei of the Washington Post on February 11, after reviewing public Internal Revenue Service records filed under Section 527 of federal tax law. Unfortunately for voters and the general public, that legal disclosure information was filed January 30, 2004, nine days after the Iowa caucuses in which Massachusetts Senator John Kerry upset former Vermont governor Howard Dean. Those contribution records were updated again with another $337,000 in donations on March 4, 2004, for a total of exactly $1 million that the group raised.

The most stunning single fact to emerge—which should have been covered more heavily nationwide and was first broken by the Web site PoliticsNJ.com—was that disgraced former Senator Robert Torricelli, severely admonished for his unsavory campaign finance practices and forced to leave the Senate, had quietly donated $50,000 from his old Senate campaign account to Americans for Jobs. Torricelli reportedly also is a fundraiser for Senator Kerry's presidential campaign."

"Americans for Jobs was a street rumble after dark, in which donors or fundraisers for the major Democratic presidential candidates then overshadowed by Dean—Kerry, Rep. Richard Gephardt, and retired General Wesley Clark—all piled on. Labor unions that had publicly endorsed Gephardt accounted for a fifth of the money—the International Longshoremen's Association ($50,000), the Laborers' International Union of North America ($50,000), the International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers ($100,000), the International Association of Ironworkers ($25,000) and the International Brotherhood of Boilermakers ($5,000). A former Dean donor, former Slim-Fast Foods businessman S. Daniel Abraham, gave $200,000. Past Kerry donor Bernard Schwartz, chairman of Loral Space and Communications—the tenth leading donor to the Democratic Party, giving $5.3 million over the years—chipped in $15,000. A top money chaser for Wesley Clark, Alan Patricof, also donated to this shadowy group. "

[madfloridian]

30. This is the most detailed version I have seen.

Charles Lewis does a pretty good research job on it.

[AntiCoup2K4]

38. Had no idea Clark was in on the assassination too.

But given the allegations of him being the official "stop Dean" candidate, that would fit.

[blm]

39. The only one with direct ties was Gephardt. The others are being smeared

unfairly because of associations. Of course, there are going to be some of the same names....it's the same party.

Hell, in that case, we could attack every Dem Dean donation made to paint Kerry as a flipflopper as someone who was working for Bush.

Sorry, but Dean was vicious at Gephardt and not entirely honest. I don't blame Gephardt supporters for playing hardball back at Dean's campaign, even though I don't approve of their method.

[cali]

41. Oh, c'mon.

As has been noted this isn't exactly new information. Everyone knows that there was a concerted stop Dean effort on the part of the major dem candidates. In the end, my tendency is to shrug rather than scream unfair. That's politics. But it did happen, and it's not smearing to point it out. As far as the business about Dean painting Kerry as a flip flopper, I recall it as being the other way around, and you were one of those tarring Dean as a waffler.
Nothing like a little revisionist hx.

[blm]

42. Wrong. Dean campaign workers followed Kerry around with flip flops

and waffles and Bush-Lite beer. That is a fact.

I never said Dean was a waffler. I only used Dean's own record to point out that he was not the liberal many of his supporters claimed and that he also supported a version of the IWR that was not significantly different than the IWR that passed. And I was very consistent about that.

That said, I do believe that Dean is now a much more committed progressive thanks to the influence of his supporters and his own introspection throughout the campaign experience. I think his supporters made a true believer out of Dean. I have no quarrel with his newfound goal to spread progressive thought in a constructive and dynamic way. I am behind that 100%. I'd just like to see it done honestly without distorting the past or the records of other good Democrats.

[zulchzulu]

49. Careful! Careful!

You are walking into dangerous territory.

Assuming that Howard Dean is not perfect and a god is going to get you into deep trouble. Deep, deep, deep trouble...

You will be seen as "the enemy".
:mad:

You might even be accused of being a "moderate".
:scared:

[janx]

65. Zulch, and this is equivalent to a party smear--how?

There is a big difference between some campaign youngsters doing pranks versus an expensive campaign by fellow Dem operatives doing what was done.

You must at least acknowledge that.

I wish you would at least realize that this is not about Howard Dean as much as it is about real democracy and populism.

I'm an old moderate and a child of old moderates.

[JNelson6563]

105. Intellectual dishonesty is their way

let them be, don't waste the key-strokes. Such dishonesty is a way of life when you live on DeNial River.

Julie

[zulchzulu]

150. Who is "they"?

What was your point?

[zulchzulu]

149. Should Dean retract his negative ads in the name of...

..."real democracy and populism"? This thread is about the negative ad.

The 527 ad was about Howard Dean and his lack of military and foreign policy experience. It was done in a negative manner (that I've pointed out many times). But the bottom line was that Dean's lack of foreign policy experience was going to be a huge issue if he ran against Bush.

Perhaps you might think that would not have happened, but that appears to be the point of the ad, albeit with scare tactics and a creepy soundtrack.

I don't agree or condone negative ads and wish there was a rating system to control negative ads. I don't condone another candidate to do a negaitve and untruthful ad. But if they resort to that, then there needs to be an obvious rating system that either is part of the ad or has a rating number on the ad.

If anything, that supports populism and real democracy.

[Cheswick2.0]

57. bull

Dean did nothing in comparison to this crap from this 527.
Kerry was indeed involved. It's one of the reasons I think Kerry is a spineless asshole. He could take part in this but chickened out at doing the same to bush.

[IndianaGreen]

77. Kerry lost, that's a fact that those that pushed "Mister Electable"...

cannot deny. Kerry also conceded the election before all the votes were counted.

Thank you for giving us Kerry as the nominee. Now we must all suffer for the next four years.

[InvisibleBallots]

76. maybe Dean shouldn't have been pro-NAFTA

Dean had a long history as a conservative, is it any surprise these unions didn't want him?

[zulchzulu]

17. Interesting audio about Iowa caucus from PBS Newshour

Realaudio:
http://audio.pbs.org:8080/ramgen/newshour/expansion/2003/11/20/dems.rm?altplay=dems.rm

From:
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/politics/july-dec03/iowa_11-20.html

[zulchzulu]

20. CNN report on the ads

http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/12/17/elec04.prez.dean.osama/

Click on the "Play video" link to play the RealPlayer ad.

[Cheswick2.0]

26. why would I want to take CNN's word for anything?

lol

[Cheswick2.0]

27. nice attempt at Thread jacking

but you are off topic. This thread is about a specific smear campaign by a specific 527, not an invitation to spin some more misinformation by the media about what happened in Ia.

[zulchzulu]

46. Dang! My plan to threadjack is impeeded!

My point is that Dean was smearing Gephardt who was smearing Dean who was smearing Gephardt who then was being watched by the other candidates that saw their polling numbers go down.

Where did the ad appear? Iowa. Only.

I know you're a little tender when it comes to issues about St. Howard (in your eyes). I like Howard Dean, but I hate to burst your bubble that he isn't perfect.

[madfloridian]

48. No one believes he is perfect. No one ever said that.

Dean criticized openly, the others pulled this 527 thing. None of the candidates were perfect. However, I do believe the number of people working against him was unprecedented.

I believe that fully. He was not perfect, but the attacks in every way were unprecedented.

Hiring people to rally with Confederate flags? Aw, come one. That is just wrong.

Calling Dean's supporters, telling them he is not electable because of the civil unions bill. Yeh, I would scream, too. Oh, that was Clinton by the way. Told them to vote for someone else, not Dean.

[Cheswick2.0]

55. off topic again

why are you making this personal and pretending you know what I think or feel? Are you a psychic? Got your chrystal ball out? :shrug:

[bemildred]

18. Do they know?

How about that?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1411766

They know.
It scares the shit out of them.
The last thing they want is a strong, charismatic political
leader with his/her own national following.
The first thing that happens in that case is they get thrown out.

[DistressedAmerican]

21. If not Clark (who would have spanked the monkey on the war)

The freaking Dems should have run Dean. I still am among those that beleive that he was not electable against Bush. However, given the nomination of that Dukakis wannabe Kerry, we wouldn't have done any worse and at least we could have lost with an honest anti-war stance and not all that "I'm for it but I'm against it" crap coming from the Kerry ranks!

I am so freaking sick of Iowa and New Hampshire getting to pick the nominee every time. Their track record sucks! If we ever want to win, we will demand a 1 day national primary and gut that fool McCauliff while we're at it!

Of course Clark was the guy! A first in his class at Westpoint, 4 star general would have taken Bush's only strength from him.
DA

http://www.seedsofdoubt.com/distressedamerican/main.htm

An old image from my site for the Swifties...

[bemildred]

33. Either of the two non-suit-droids would have been better. nt

[killbotfactory]

29. Why am I not surprised?

#@*$#@_)($*ing morons.

[DaveinMD]

34. big surprise

A group supporting one candidate attacked another candidate. This is what happens in politics.

[ScreamingMeemie]

35. Yes, but we were sickened when Bush did it to McCain in that manner.

It's sickening when a party eats one of its own in this manner. Politics or no politics.

[DaveinMD]

36. I agree

but its a fact of politics. I guess I've been at this too long.

[byronm]

37. Thats why

People running for president shouldn't wait until 1 year before elections to "come out"..

The DNC as a party should commit itself to "grooming" candidates based upon a common set of goals and visions.

after all, what good is being partyline if you can change it every candidate

[Cheswick2.0]

53. bull

that is not just politics. I notice the same people didn't have the balls to go after Bush that way.

[DaveinMD]

60. Gephardt's people?

I must have missed when he was on the ticket. Our side went after bush pretty hard. We spent a ton of money on 527 ads.

[bklyncowgirl]

40. Dems use dirty tricks against their own. Why not against Bush?

The Americans for Jobs 527 ads was a classic Rovian style hit. It was dirty politics pure and simple

How come the same crew that put this nasty hit piece together were incapable of doing the same to GW Bush--especially after the Swift Boat ads should have put everything on the table?

[madfloridian]

43. Ding, ding! You just won the prize. Excellent post.

Exactly...why could they go after one their own that way, and then tippy tippy toe around and play nice with Bush.

[Wind Dancer]

62. I would love to know the answer to that question. n/t

[demwing]

91. Cowgirl, you just asked the $1,000,000 question

Why can we tear out our own heart and soul, yet sit in mute acceptance of the Republican Theo/Fascist regime?

And, eventually, someone might give me an acceptable reason as to why our Senators didn't support the CBC in 2000.

Not one of them. Not even the duo we ran against Bush.

[JNelson6563]

44. After all that trouble why'd Geppy

throw his Iowa votes to Kerry? Why'd Kucinich throw his to Edwards?

:shrug:

Julie

[Jon8503]

47. Hell just forget it, it was the entire DNC that went after Dean as much

as the Repukes.

Dean is not a DNC guy. As far as I am concerned, the bullshit of him taking the party too far to the left is just that bullshit. What the hell did our party guys get us the last two elections.

We need a change.
We need a new identity.
We need to know what the hell we stand for.
And no it is not Hillary we need in the next Pres election.

[Radical Activist]

50. You reap what you sow

Every time I went to an event for one of the candidates in Iowa and New Hampshire I saw Dean people outside passing out fliers attacking that candidate. He spent most of the early primary attacking other Democrats. Why should anyone be surprised when other Democratic candidates started pushing back? It seems very hypocritical for Dean to complain about other Democrats attacking him considering the type of campaign he ran.

I'm also not sure how he would work as DNC chair after all the time he spent badmouthing the leadership of the Democratic Party. I bash them sometimes too, but I don't have to work with them everyday.

[madfloridian]

51. There you go.

I knew we had to get the "bad Dean supporters" meme in there. Congratulations on being the first.

And guess what. Maybe the more I think about it, we earned the reputation and should be proud of it.

I am proud we supported a candidate who spoke out honestly and clearly. And shame on you for just mentioning us. You know what the land-based version of astro-turfing is, if you don't look it up.

I am proud I am stubborn and pigheaded when it comes to standing up for what I believe. I intend to stay that way.

[Radical Activist]

52. I don't think I was bashing Dean supporters

I was mostly bashing Dean. It was the Dean campaign that chose to take that approach and ultimately Howard Dean is the one who set the tone and approved that strategy. So, I don't blame the average Dean supporter for the nasty fliers they were given to pass out that attacked other candidates.

I think you can stand for what you believe in without badmouthing most of the Democratic Party. There were at least two candidates who stood for what they believe in with a positive message rather than going for the jugular of the other Democratic candidates.

[madfloridian]

56. The party is a failing institution right now.

Saying that is not badmouthing it. Actually there is nothing I or anyone could say that would make a difference to you at all.

So I won't bother.

[Radical Activist]

58. Very true.

and the same is obviously true of you. No point against Dean, no matter how inconsequential or strong, ever has any validity at all with you. At least I can admit when Kucinich did something stupid.

[madfloridian]

63. My husband and I are very critical of him in some areas.

We are critical of our DFA group here, we are critical of our DEC here. Right now, I am not especially fond of anyone. But I do admire Howard Dean more than most. He spoke out when he needed to, and continues to do so.

I happen to like Kucinich a lot, myself. I would never attack you for your support of him. Never. It would be poor taste, and I would not do it.

However, when you keep after me like you do, it diminishes you, not me.

[Eloriel]

82. Oh, get real, for Pete's sake

There is NO comparison between handing out anti-opponent flyers and what this 527 did, and what else was done to Dean (see my post upthread). NO COMPARISON WHATSOEVER.

I think you can stand for what you believe in without badmouthing most of the Democratic Party. There were at least two candidates who stood for what they believe in with a positive message rather than going for the jugular of the other Democratic candidates.

And just keep your mouth shut while what you believe in is that the Democratic Party has to get WITH IT and change for the better? There was no shortage of "going for the jugular" around -- further, Dean's criticisms were all on target, not cheap shots like were thrown at him, along with unconscionable LIES like "unelectable" at a time when people were desperate to get Bush out.

And another thing. THere was NO OTHER FORMER CANDIDATE who did NEARLY as much for the nominee and the party once the primaries were over. NONE. Dean alone was out there humping for the man he knew had been responsible for his undoing. He's a far better person than I would ever dream of being.

Furthermore YET -- he's SO committed to this godforsaken, fucked upm, traitorous party that he wants to be the next DNC chair and remake it from the inside (GRASSROOTS level) out.

Get REAL.

[Cheswick2.0]

54. bullshit

this was the kind of filthy politics you'd expect from bush.

Dean did nothing comparable.

[hippiechick]

59. Tinfoil Time ...

:tinfoilhat: One also has to wonder in retrospect if Kerry wasn't so quick to concede on 11/3 because he knew he had been Diebolded ... and he knew on 11/3 because he knowingly allowed it to happen to Dean in Iowa ...

:shrug:

:hippie:

[madfloridian]

61. Jones finally admits the purpose of his 527...bring Dean down.

Several are surprised, but polite. Some are attempting to turn it around as usual.

He said it on C-Span, and it made more difference than all the articles about it the first of the year could make.

Yes, it happened. Dean got McCained in Iowa. He was not perfect, but he did in no way deserve what they did to him. He criticized them openly, but they went after him in secret. They determined the nominee themselves....probably just as they have through the years.

The party had an agenda, he was not part of it because he spoke against it. Iraq was part of that agenda. He had been more annoying to the liberals in VT than he had the Republicans. But he criticized the leadership of our party and the DLC....and he had to go.

Except...he is still around.

[napi21]

73. I'm ashamed to hear the Dems do this too!

I was sooo pissed at the pugs when they so obviously chose shrub back in 2000, and did every dirty trick in the book to destroy any of his opponents. I knew the dem party leaders wanted one of their own, but I foolishly believed if the people chose someone else, they'd go along. This is a disgusting revalation about what we laughingly call democracy!

[janx]

95. YES IT IS--you're right.

I don't know why more people can't come to that realization.

We can't beat the right-wingers by being like them. How many times must it be said?

[IndianaGreen]

78. All he accomplished was to put Bush in the White House

I wonder if he is proud of the mess he made of our lives for the next 4 years.

[Eloriel]

83. mf -- that's not the main reason he had to go

the main reason he had to go was that he genuinely intended to return power to The People. THAT's what couldn't be allowed to stand.

Of course, your perspective is also true, but it wasn't what was so frightening and threatening to TPTB at the stooopid DNC/DLC.

[madfloridian]

85. His grassroots funding was the reason mainly.

That is how he dared to criticize. Their corporate funding would not be as necessary and would make them irrelevant with that new way of raising money.

[ibegurpard]

88. And silly, naive me

I thought that it would be looked at as a godsend to a party who had come to rely more and more on corporate contributions.

[JNelson6563]

106. Well said MF!

What we are dealing with here is an inability to see the truth for what it is. Dean played hardball, no one denies that. But when he sent a shot across the bow he didn't do it from the shadows, it was clear where it came from. Not our other fine Dems, they were slinking around in the dark, hiding behind mysterious 527's. Yet, in fact, they did not hammer on Bush as they did Dean. In order to admit this some here would have to face a reality they cannot handle.

I pity them.

Julie

[madfloridian]

80. Here is another detailed article. Jones' statement is so arrogant.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2004/02/10/politics1944EST0809.DTL

Americans for Jobs, Healthcare and Progressive Values ran at least three ads in December against then-Democratic presidential front-runner Dean in early-voting states, a finance report the group provided Tuesday to The Associated Press showed.

The group spent $15,000 on an ad aired in South Carolina and New Hampshire that showed a picture of bin Laden and said Dean lacked the experience needed to take on terrorists.

The group aired two anti-Dean ads in Iowa, the first state to hold a delegate contest. One criticized Dean's history of endorsements by the National Rifle Association; the other blasted his support for the North American Free Trade Agreement and said he supported cuts to Medicare. (All of these were just ridiculous...Dean took the gun control off the table for the federal govt. as he should have, he said NAFTA was flawed and needed to be fixed badly, and he never would have cut Medicare....just reorganized it)

In all, the group raised $663,000 last year and spent $626,840 of it, the finance report showed. It spent $500,000 on ads.

"We did more with $600,000 than Howard Dean did with $41 million," said David Jones, the group's treasurer and a Democratic fund-raising consultant, referring to the Democratic record campaign fund Dean raised and largely spent last year..."

Yes, David, you did a brilliant job with that money. Are you proud? Dean had campaign offices all over, he still had a lead in most states...but you took care of that. Glad you are proud. Glad you and Trippi are such good friends now.

[DaveinMD]

81. the Dean campaign lost on its own merits

he had committed activists, but he never widened his appeal. This one 527 was not responsible for his loss. Its time to move on.

[madfloridian]

84. There will be no moving on for me and my husband. Party failed us.

Whatever Dean decides about DNC, if they even let him do it, really does not matter. DFA will keep growing anyway.

Dean was not perfect, but he did not lose just because of him. He had loads of help.

Did you know they accused him and Judy of abortions in the push polling? Did you know they were calling and saying that folks needed to knew his wife was Jewish? I know that....we have a daughter in Iowa.

And in Dallas and in a couple of other states.

You can say the same thing all day, and you are making yourself look bad, not us.

[DaveinMD]

97. I say we need to move on

because I've been through plenty of elections. We need to win the next one for the good of the country. Some campaigns do terrible things. The entire field was united against Dean because he was the front runner. They needed to bring him down to give themselves a chance. But the tactics used were reprehensible and I would never use them in my work as a consultant. Push polling is the lowest of the low.

[janx]

148. We actually had to have won the last one for the good of the country.

But it goes even beyond that. This concerted effort was of such magnitude that it thwarted the democratic process. That may sound like a reactionary thing to say, but I've given this a lot of thought, and I believe it's true.

By messing around with the primary process to such an aggriegious extent, those in power ultimately misled the people and screwed up what was, theoretically, the path of democracy.

And every time that happens (think about "election" 2000), another disaster is created. It is no wonder the Dems didn't win this one.

[IndianaGreen]

89. Move on to where? Four more years of Bush?

Save the Democratic Establishment's ass at the expense of the American workers, is that what this DLC shit is all about?

You won't ever get an ABB coalition again, for the DNC and the DLC can never be trusted!

[DaveinMD]

94. move on to the next election

Fighting the battles of the last election does no good. We need to move past the last primaries and start focusing on winning the next election.

[janx]

96. Some of us are doing that, Dave.

But we're not moving in any direction close to the DLC. You can count on that.

[DaveinMD]

99. The entire DLC thing

is a giant distraction. I'm a labor Democrat. But I want to aim my fire on Republicans. I don't like Al From any more than you do. But the Repubs are the real enemy.

[janx]

104. You're right, the DLC is a distraction.

Especially now. And after tomorrow, it's going to be downright irrelevant! ;-)

[DaveinMD]

109. I also believe

the right left arguments are pointless. We need a new populism that unites liberals and moderates.

[madfloridian]

118. What do you think DFA is about?

Good grief, Dave. You just want to argue.

[DaveinMD]

124. I wasn't arguing

I was stating my belief to Janx. I wasn't arguing with Janx. But you come here and make the claim that I want to argue. I suspect we'd agree on a lot if were just talking about issues.

[bklyncowgirl]

108. Wow only $600k biggest bargain since Swift Boat Vets

Nasty backstabbing comes cheap.

Look at the Swift Boat Vets. Did more damage than millions of dollars in GOP attack ads and I'll bet Bush's little take down of McCain in the 2000 primaries was a bargain too.

DNC take note. Clearly you guys know how to do this sort of thing. Now lets try doing it to the Republicans.

[madfloridian]

87. Amazing! Absolutely amazing! Jones admits it on C-Span.

And folks here are still in denial. Go figure.

[Q]

92. It's bad enough that Dem candidates...

...have to fight the corporate media and the Bush* Smear machine. Now we have Democrats smearing each other behind the scenes. It's the party and the people who suffer for this in the end.

[JaneQPublic]

93. If only Kerry had worked as hard fighting * as he did Dean,...

...perhaps he'd be in office in January.

[Freddie Stubbs]

98. And its good that they did. If they hadn't run those ads,

the Republicans would have ran them against Dean in the general election. If they turned Democrats off to Dean, imagine the effect they would have had on independents.

[InvisibleBallots]

100. but, Kerry conceeded, Bush "won"

so what good did the ads do - prevent the GOP from running nasty ads against Dean, like they did with Kerry? Could anything the ran against Dean have been as damaging as the Swift Boat attacks?

[Freddie Stubbs]

101. We could have lost more seats in the House and

Ken Slaazar may not have been elected to the Senate.

[janx]

102. Um...DFA helped to get Salazar elected in the first place...

...

[DaveinMD]

111. but he's DLC

you see how these distinctions are meaningless.

[madfloridian]

112. You are being simplistic now.

Have you ever read any speech or heard any interview with Howard Dean?

Talking to someone who just pretends to understand is a waste of time.

[DaveinMD]

113. I knew Gov. Dean

a long time ago. I worked in Vermont. My wife was the President of UVM College Democrats in 1992. We went bowling with Governor Dean. I like Howard Dean. Just not as President.

My "but he's DLC" was not aimed at Gov. Dean. It was aimed at the posters here who think the DLC is the cause of all the world's problems. I reject the right v left within our party.

[madfloridian]

117. The DLC is why we are in such mess right now as a country.

You really need to read his book. You always say you know him so well, yet you jump in every thread to let us know how much you don't.

He is very specific in the book, very practical. He truly realizes how the party had gotten to where it approved of the Iraq invasion...knowing full well what it was about.

He knows the party was fully behind the NCLB bill, the privatization of Medicare and Social Security, and the huge tax cuts for corporations.

I do think the DLC is dangerous because it is a trojan horse. It was formed specifically to shut out the traditional groups of Democrats. You know exactly what I mean. It pretends to be what it is not...a wing of the Democratic party. Dean called them on their BS and they brought him down.

And he screamed.

[DaveinMD]

119. sorry

its a boogeyman. There are good DLC Democrats. Bill Clinton for one. And there are bad ones. You don't win by driving people out of the party.

[madfloridian]

120. There are good people everywhere.

Hey, we are out of the party now. Don't lecture me about driving people away. We are still registered Democratic, but we only support DFA financially right now. We don't even receive the DNC mailings anymore.

It is no boogeyman. Say, what do you think about the DLC calling for the ouster of Kofi Annan? How about that?

[DaveinMD]

123. Its a complete boogeyman

they have nothing to do with the fact we lost this election. As far as the actual organization and Kofi Annan goes, its irrelevent. I've said many times I don't like Al From. I'm a labor Democrat. My first job out of college was working for the AFL-CIO. However, there are many good Democrats that are members of the organization. Many Dems join every Democrat organization. Gov. Dean knows this. Many of the candidates he supported were also supported by the the DLC. I'm sorry you left the party. I think that's a poor choice. I suspect Gov. Dean would think its a poor choice too.

[madfloridian]

126. I did not leave them, they left me when they attacked Iraq.

I am done trying to explain anything. I fought against this war harder than I have ever fought anything in my life.......we saw where it would take us, and the irreparable harm it would do to our country and its people.

No one in our party listened. I spent hours calling, and even more writing....so did my husband.

We got the cold shoulder from all of them. They left me. We donate freely to DFA, but that is all right now. I have an open mind, but the party does not.

[DaveinMD]

127. Many in the party voted against the war

My candidate of choice was against the war. But the war is not the only issue. Progressive taxation, labor rights, health care reform, economic justice are all important issues. They'll be another campaign and another chance to fix what is wrong with this country. I hope you will join us in that fight. I will continue to work for Democratic candidates to make this country better.

[madfloridian]

129. In a way, Iraq is the issue.

You really need to think about that. It is the beginning of the end of the greatness of our country. The DLC specifically was formed not to have to cater to labor rights, and the other issues they agree with Republicans on...just use different words.

The DNC has followed their lead for so long there is very little difference.

Right now, I am registered as a Democrat. I choose to donate to the candidates and organization named DFA for now. I don't agree with everything, but I fit better there.

I saw our Democrats vote to lessen our public school system. I saw it happening before my eyes. I retired...got out. Shame on them for doing this.

[DaveinMD]

130. was that in Florida

I can't speak to that. All I can speak is that I am proud of what most in the Democratic party stand for. I'm glad you donate to DFA. They are doing good work.

[madfloridian]

132. You mean the schools? All over the USA.

It is called the NCLB bill. It is the destruction of the public school system under the guise of testing kids to death and testing schools until they bleed.

Then we can turn the education over to the private companies to make a profit....

[DaveinMD]

134. The NCLB

was a bill that was supposed to increase money along with the standards. Folks made a mistake by trusting Shrub. This was before the war. Ted Kennedy, a great liberal, made a mistake. Everyone does from time to time. But it wasn't a sinister plot.

[madfloridian]

138. Not just the funding.

I am sorry, but the testing is the tool. I could give more details, but since you think it is ok, I won't bother.

Testing until they all fail. Maybe some of our Democrats really truly did not realize what it was. But they should have not voted for it until they knew.

They should have asked the teachers. We knew.

[DaveinMD]

139. I didn't say it was OK

I said some great liberals made an error. There wasn't anything sinister about it. Most Dems have stood up to keep vouchers from happening.

[JNelson6563]

107. Dose of reality

• One of the two new Democratic United States senators was a "Dean Dozen" candidate--Barack Obama (D-Ill.). Obama and the other new Democratic senator, Ken Salazar (D-Colo.), received contributions from DFA.

• One "Dean Dozen" candidate won her race for Congress, Allyson Schwartz (D-PA) and DFA contributed to five of the fourteen incoming freshman Democratic Members of Congress.

• Some of the notable non-federal success stories include:

• Both of the new Democratic governors are "Dean Dozen" candidates: John Lynch (D-NH) and Brian Schweitzer (D-Mont.)

• Two "Dean Dozen" candidates won their mayoral race: Peter Corroon was elected as mayor of Salt Lake County, Utah and Tom Potter was elected as mayor of Portland, Ore.

• Democracy for America contributed more than $600,000 to 634 candidates for non-federal office. 319 of those candidates won--a 50% win-loss record.

• "Dean Dozen" candidates were elected to state legislatures in 16 states. Candidates for legislature who received Democracy for America contributions, but were not part of the "Dean Dozen," were elected in an additional 12 states.

• Democracy for America played a large role in regaining several legislative chambers for the Democrats, including: the Colorado House and Senate, the North Carolina House, the Oregon Senate, the Vermont House and the Washington Senate. DFA also helped secure a tie in the Iowa Senate.

• "Dean Dozen" candidates were elected to the bench in Alabama and Georgia.

• "Dean Dozen" candidates also won races for soil & water commission, supervisor of elections, township clerk, county commission and constable.

Governor Dean commented on the election results:

"The Dean Dozen candidates and the hundreds of other candidates that Democracy for America supported are the future of the Democratic Party. Win or lose, these fiscally responsible, socially progressive citizens fought to take our country back and helped spread the message that to change America, Democrats must compete everywhere, including the red states."

http://www.democracyforamerica.com/features/2004/11/17/dean_dozen_success_stories.php

Just out of curiousity, what did the other candidates accomplish after they dropped out of the race?

Julie

[ibegurpard]

110. Kind of hard to imagine a rout much worse than what happened.

eom

[Freddie Stubbs]

147. 51%-48% isn't that bad, compared to 1984

When it was 59%-41%.

[ibegurpard]

151. I wasn't talking about just the Presidential

Nor were you in the post I responded to.

[zulchzulu]

128. Link to ad (Windows Media)

Video

The message:
"Americans want a president who can face the dangers ahead. But Howard Dean has no military or foreign policy experience. And Howard Dean just cannot compete with George Bush on foreign policy. It's time for Democrats to think about that and think about it now."

Whether Bush would have used this over and over in negative ads if Dean was the nominee is pretty obvious.

I disagree with negative advertising in principle, but it certainly is the only way campaigns seem to be winning on. I believe we need something like a Political Media Agency that reviews political ads before they are aired and possibly have a rating clearly marked on the ad if it airs.

[madfloridian]

131. So you advocate letting them set our agenda and choose our nominee?

Because they would have attacked Dean, you say, we had to be sure not to choose him so they could not attack him.

Oh, my goodness, what a shame to think that way. And of course, they did not attack our nominee at all, did they. (sarcasm) I mean they really respected his reporting for duty and his military experience, didn't they? Yeh, right.

[zulchzulu]

135. Whuuh?

Dean attacked Kerry, Gephardt and others in his ads. Do you think he didn't? Are you a Dean revisionist?

Kucinich wanted Dean to pull some ad in New Hampshire because he thought it was too negative and was deceptive.

http://www.thechamplainchannel.com/wnne/2579079/detail.html

Video:
http://www.thechamplainchannel.com/video/2580717/detail.html

Like I said in my post, we need to offer better ways to show our candidates without doing negative ads. I know, it will never happen, but we can possibly offer a way to rate ads in truth quotient and prominently display the rating in the ad.

[madfloridian]

140. Of course Dean attacked. I never denied that.

You are totally ignoring what I said very clearly and you are turning it on me.

That is deliberate on your part. Our party was afraid of someone controversial, because the Republicans might not approve.

So we let them set the agenda. And they attacked the "safe" choice unmercifully on his courageous military record.

The party made the decision.

[killbotfactory]

136. Bush used the same line of attack on Kerry, for f***s sake

And it seems to have worked!

I don't understand why the democratic leadership behind these sleazy ads thought Kerry's Nam service would make him immune from attacks, but whatever...

It blindsided us Dean supporters because we weren't expecting such shit from our own party. Live and learn.

[janx]

141. I agree with your final point, Zulch--

but some of us knew that Kerry's war protest record would be the subject of a Bush* attack, too.

Suppose it had not come from Bush*, but from other Dems during the primaries?

That's the level to which we've stooped, and it's far too sleazy for me.

[zulchzulu]

145. This is precisely what we need to work on

Election reform. Political ad reform. Getting rid of BBV and have a political review agency (like the FDA) that rates ads before they are aired and rates them likewise.

Frankly, on looking at the ad again, it was pretty predictable with the eery music, the slow spin of OBLs head and that usual VO guy. And yes, it was negative.

Kucinich complained about Dean's ad in New Hampshire (http://www.thechamplainchannel.com/wnne/2579079/detail.html) and no one has brought up that point here.

What people may forget and seem to not understand is that all politics these days offers negative ads. Primaries and general elections...all parties...it's politics. The hard-to-find good, the usually bad and the typically ugly.

If people who don't like the Dean ad think that other people who supported other candidates are somehow complicit with the ad, I just figure on not responding. What's the point?

As for other dems not attacking Kerry's peace activities in ads, that would have been pretty stupid. Well, Lieberman might have done something if he had a real campaign...but it's pointless to argue about.

[madfloridian]

133. Outrageous...Jones says they did it to bring Dean down.

He laughed because Trippi's outrage about it helped it get more attention. He was proud of the ad.

Instead of being outraged, folks here are blaming Dean.

That, my friends, is what is wrong with our country.

No wonder he screamed.

[killbotfactory]

137. But don't you see?

Dean criticized the failed leadership of his own party. In Public!That gives people the right to suggest that OBL will strike again if Dean is elected... Dean deserved it.

Oh, but if those nasty republicans dare to claim the same thing about Kerry, well then... that's just an appauling sign of sleaze typical of the republican party! Hell must be raised!

:eyes:

[FubarFly]

142. That cracked me up.

It's funny cause it's true. ;-)

[madfloridian]

144. Ok to do it in secret. Not ok in public. Got it.

:evilgrin:

[madfloridian]

143. Oops! Look who else is running for chair. Speaking of the ad.

Markos has good write up today about Leo Hindery, who is also running for DNC chair. One of the largest donors to the ad. Poor Howard, he never had a chance during these primaries. This is a good read by Markos.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/12/7/16296/6171

He was even more generous in the 2000 cycle when soft dollar donations were not barred by law, and when he was CEO of once high-flying Silicon Valley firm Global Center, had stints with AT&T Broadband, and was a former chairman of the National Cable Television Association. His stint at Global Center, where he oversaw a merger with Exodus Communications, netted him about $247 million -- the sort of princely sum that allowed him to focus on political advocacy and philanthropy, but also saddled him with baggage from the company's subsequent corporate scandals (which also tainted Terry McAuliffe). His private philanthropy is focused on the fight against AIDS. He also races a Porsche 911 GT3 in the 24-hour Le Mans race.

But Hindery's most audacious move these past four years was helping fund the Osama ads that helped sink Dean in Iowa. Hindery was a fierce Gephardt supporter in the primaries and eagerly bought into the "Americans for Jobs & Healthcare" effort to take down Dean. So eager, in fact, that he contributed $100,000 of the organization's total $663,000 budget.END SNIP

[killbotfactory]

146. Silly me. I thought Dean had a movement that could actually combat...

The entrenched interests in the party who have been leading us into one disaster after another.

Next time we'll be sure to set up a bunch of 527's to stealth campaign for Dean, or whoever bugs the party "leaders" the most, and they'll never be able to prove a connection until it's far too late! HAHAHA!

Thanks for the lesson in democracy, guys!