If you're not pissed at Kerry, tell me why not

[LTRS]

He could have run a better campaign, for sure. When I said that here DURING the campaign I got jumped on, but let's be real, his failure to respond to the flip flopper charge effectively is what did him in. (44% cited that as the reason they did not vote for him). He basically ignored it and that was really foolish, in my opinion. I couldn't understand that strategy all during the campaign, and I don't understand it now.

But that isn't what has really ticked me off about him. What really ticks me off is that he has provided no leadership at all on problems with the voting system. Why is he not at the hearings today? Why has he had not a peep to say about any of it?

Don't tell me it would make him look bad, or like a sore loser.... that's baloney! I don't care how it makes HIM look. This issue is more important than him. He should show some leadership here for goodness sake!

[WI_DEM]

1. I'm not pissed at him

but do think he got some bad campaign advice. He should have attacked the swiss boaters immediately rather than let that boil grow. I think the Dem convention was a lost opportunity. Too much about the war Kerry served in and not enough on the war we are persently in. I also don't think he adequately explained his position on "voting against it after I voted for it". If anything doomed him it is that too many people didn't understand his position on Iraq.

[ohioliberal]

3. I totally agree with you on your response WI_DEM

[genius]

35. I am one of those who feels betrayed. I thought he was going to fight

Instead, he just gave us Hitler and expects us to fall in line. I worked tirelessly for Kerry and I'm furious.

[Bhaisahab]

123. In hindsight, I think Kerry was Rove's trump card

hey call me a nut, but i can't get over the skull n bones connection, the similar economic background, and the ease with which they hammered kerry over vietnam and flip-flop. he just pretended to fight back. any ass on the street would have been more aggressive than kerry was against such feeble attacks.
it was howard dean who should have been fighting bush, dean was the dude bush/cheney were scared of. and look how they took him out, facilitating kerry's nomination victory.
they are all hand in glove, mates.
kerry's job was to maintain the facade of popular elections in america. the winner was always going to be bush.
that's just what i think, and as always my opinions dont mean shit. so please don't hate me, eh?

[TrustingDog]

2. I think I'll give him more time...

but shit if ole Ralph's words aren't haunting me now...

I'm beginning to believe more every day that the two party system is just same shit, different pile. Sure, the dems pile is a bit less stinking but a pile nonetheless. Sad that we have to settle for CRAP!!!

[Merlot]

4. Because I'm WAY to busy being pissed at

- The media that won't report this story

- The corporate system that owns the voting machines

- The Evil that is taking place with voter disenfranchisement, registration, and other assorted "tricks" to suppress the vote

- The fact that we had 4 years of knowing this would happen, and didn't do anything about it.


I don't care if we had run Superman, the result would not be any different right now. And as for leadership, I think Jackson is stepping up.

[wellstone]

5. I'm not mad at him

I think he's a genuinely good man. Intelligent. Compassionate. A true war hero.

I think he is staying away from the vote fraud thing because he wants to keep himself viable for 2008.

In the 1960 election there were allegations of voting shennanigans in Illinois and West Virginia that helped JFK beat Tricky Dick. Nixon could have contested those elections but chose not to so as to keep his hopes alive for later elections.

...it worked for Dicky (unfortunately)....

[insane_cratic_gal]

7. Not Angry BUT

I wish he'd get his butt to OH, and support the recount,

his invisible team, without him just isn't cutting it.

Not a single mention of this coverage of the OH recount today on MSM that i have seen

[ohioan]

75. He's NOT invisible in Ohio . . .

He supports the recount and even intervened in one of the lawsuits.

[insane_cratic_gal]

84. I wanted to see

him come parading into that hearing today in the worst way. At the very least in the next 48 hours I want to hear him come out and address the issue with his own vocal cords.

They were right at the hearing, It's not getting the backing (MSM) it deserves because the canidate who should be there raising a stink isn't visible. Physically visible.

[LittleClarkie]

95. The Senate was in session today on the Intelligence bill

I don't see anything in the Congressional Record yet, so I don't know if he was there. I would suspect, however.

As for "parading into the hearing" what would that accomplish but to make folks who need to see dramatic action feel better? It would be useless grandstanding and would create the atmosphere we do NOT want as investigations continue.

Would it necessarily push the process along? MSM barely follow Kerry when he was the candidate, for pete's sake, and even when they did it was not good coverage. How would they cover him now? Not well, and not favorably, I reckon.

And the Bush regime would be in there so fast to squash the whole thing it would make your head spin.

No. I'm not pissed at Kerry. I'm pissed at the current regime, and their frightening followers. How do you deprogram these people, I wonder.

[insane_cratic_gal]

99. I'm not mad.. I said already

but It would of lifted my heart to no end to see him there today. Or hear something from him .. himself in the next few days before the media glosses it over again for a bush speech.

they kept mentioning sentors arriving. I kept hoping his name would of been read. If nothing else to shut up the naysayers that keep insisting he doesn't care. I don't care wtf the MSM said in negative turn about him. I didn't care when the smashed his name through the mud. If you haven't noticed yet. Those here that I have seen give little regard to MSM for good reason.

I want him to be as outraged as we are, stealth is fine, but visible is better, it rallies and draws attention.
I hate to say it but OUR DEMOCRACY atm is a neglected child!! Attention needs to be brought to it, Kerry is the man to do it.

[ohioan]

119. I heard something from him today - he issued a statement

You're right that attention needs to be drawn to it. Kerry may or may not be the man to do it. But if he is, now is not the time for him to do it. It might make YOU feel better to see him marching around bellowing about the results of an election that hasn't yet been certified. But it would do absolutely no good for us in the long run. This fight is going to take more than screaming and rhetoric. It's going to take time, careful strategy and long-term thinking. Kerry yelling in the next few months won't accomplish a thing.

[TrustingDog]

20. and what makes you think 2008 elections are going to be 'fair'?

or even if there will be any...

bush will be fast tracking a lot more incredulous moves to make us shake our fists in disbelief and anger. by 2008 you won't recognize your country. take some snapshots now.

[Crunchy Frog]

23. The only way that he would get my vote

if he was the nominee in '08 is if we was running as the incumbent President. If he's screwing us now just so he can screw us again in '08, I'll be voting Green party.

[purduejake]

57. I will NOT vote for him in 2008

I am pissed. If he can't even fight for something that so many people think he won, to hell with him. It's time for a third party or people like Dean running things.

[sendero]

82. Me either...

.... I think he's a good man, I'm not "mad" at him - but he ran a race and came up lacking.

Hopefully, the Dems will have enough sense to nominate someone else next time. Preferably NOT A SENATOR.

[Griffy]

144. Kerry will win 2008.. as incumbent . this aint over

RISE UP.. take to the streets.. the cal has gone out to mobilize.. protests this weekend, plan for DC in January.. we will need EVERYONE by then!

[donheld]

124. Welcome to DU Wellstone

:hi:

[DistressedAmerican]

141. Some leader,

Sells us out to keep HIS options open for the future. The guy should be ashamed of himself for refusing to step up and defend the people that voted for him. If he runs next time around. I'll be working to take him out ASAP. I'd have voted Cobb if I thought this guy would roll over and let us all get screwed without a fight!

[forintegrity]

8. I agree about "Superman!" No one could

win against such a corrupt system of voting!

I'm not at all mad at Kerry. There's too many other things to be REALLY pissed at right now. After watching the hearings today, I'm absolutely sickened at what has happened around this country to fellow Americans on November 2! I'm as sick about it as I am about what is going on in Iraq, and that's pretty bad!

Talk about TERRORISM!

[LTRS]

9. No one elected Jackson to anything

So he isn't democratic leadership. And your bullets points 1-4 happened because of a lack of leadership.

[Griffy]

145. NO ONE ELECTED Martin L King ... this is a Civil rights fight ..

this is a time for us to all work together.. this is our democracy at stake... our very freedoms! keep our eye on the prize... Kerry did fight.. will you? I'll be in DC this weekend protesting! we must be heard!

[ComerPerro]

27. Well said

[OneBlueSky]

6. well I, for one, am pissed at him . . .

and have been since he made that wimpy concession speech . . . and now, with the very existance of our democracy in serious jeopardy, he remains silent . . . having promised that "I've got your back," all he's done is turn his back and walk away . . . I don't believe any of this business about him working behind the scenes, either . . . we need a leader right out front to put some wheels on the election fraud issue, yet he remains in the background licking his wounds and preparing for 2008 . . . well, unless we take care of 2004, the 2008 nomination won't be worth spit, Senator . . .

they stole it in 2000, and we did nothing . . . they stole who knows how many seats (and governorships) in 2002, and we did nothing . . . and now they've blatantly stolen it in 2004 and -- after swearing that we would NOT let it happen again -- we're doing nothing . . . it beyond disgusting . . . and I'm truly sick of it . . .

[LTRS]

11. Exactly! (n/t)

[Piperay]

104. Me too

he let me down, he didn't 'have my back'. :mad:

[GreenPartyVoter]

10. If he does not speak out and stop the confirmation of **, I will

be beyond pissed.

-------------------------------------
Fight the fraud; Fix the system!
http://timeforachange.bluelemur.com/

[elshiva]

12. I LOVE KERRY STILL

WHY? He treats us queers with respect and fights for our rights in the Senate. He voted against FMA and wants to introduce ENDA. Every time the gay issue came up he said queers deserved the same rights as hets. This homophobic country isn't ready for out pro-gay people like Dean, Kucinich, and Kerry to be Prez.
Yes, he did not focus enough on Iraq, but that was because he was shoved in the flip-flop box so Bush didn't have to face it.
How can I get pissed at a face like this...
http://www.boston.com/globe/nation/packages/kerry/images/day3/01.htm

[LTRS]

16. Kerry is good on equal rights - true

But only compared to other dems. You've got a few things wrong here though. He has not lifted a finger to introduce any civil rights bills for gays and lesbians. He voted against DOMA when most dems voted FOR it, but he didn't show up for the FMA vote. He probably would have if the outcome had depended on him, but the fact is he didn't show for that vote.

And Dean isn't particularly "pro-gay" - he was dragged there kicking and screaming by the Vermont court. And yet I still prefer Dean to Kerry. Kerry has no spine when it counts.

[XemaSab]

102. Dean and Gays

Dean has said that though he felt personally uncomfortable with the idea of gay people, he felt morally bound to ensure the rights of citizens.

I think it says more about him that he was able to admit to being uncomfortable with gays, than actually signing the domestic partners bill.

[LittleClarkie]

18. Yeah, and after Bubba told him to come out in favor of DOMA too

he still wouldn't do it.

I read in a Globe article that he didn't attack Bush as hard on Iraq as he could have because he was concerned about the soldiers in the field and what it would do to them. He actually cares more about them, certainly more than the Shrub. Even one of my Republican vet friends appreciated that. His only reason for not voting for Kerry was that he was afraid of the transition. Otherwise he thought Kerry would do a good job.

We got beat by suppression, fraud and hate. Only one of those things he could really fight as far as the current election is concerned. The other two will be investigated for further legislation we won't see for a while. Meanwhile, I see enough signs of life from him on the fraud issue to satisfy me and to at least convince me that he's around, that he's aware of what's going on. He's not disappeared.

I just wish those who say "FIGHT" would tell me "HOW." What can he do without concrete, direct proof. Plan, what would be his plan? Just saying "FIGHT" is too vague.

I'm with you, elshiva. I love him still. Here's a lovely portrait done from that picture that's normally in my sig. Just for you.

[wellst0nev0ter]

21. I Agree. Stop. . .Blaming. . .The. . .Victim

Sorry, but if Bush and his ilk can create an alternate universe where Kerry flipped-flopped more than Bush or Kerry shot himself in his own foot, then there is not a lot you can do to counter that. If elections were decided by decency and honesty, Kerry would win by far.

But we all know the truth about that, so I guess the lesson Kerry should carry from the election is don't be afraid to play sandbox politics. AT LEAST it can't be worse than being overly cautious.

[LTRS]

24. I'm talking about his lack of leadership on the vote

counting issue and the electoral system. You don't think he has any obligation to stand up as a leader and talk about that? Because having busted my butt and my pocketbook to help get him elected I think he owes me and thousands like me that much.

[SammyWinstonJack]

56. Al Gore was a victim

I don't think Kerry was, or atleast he shouldn't have been. I don't think Gore had a clue as to what was about to hit him when he decided to run. Kerry had full knowledge of just how dirty Rove and co. play. He also had come under fire from the Swift Boat Liars in the past while running for public office. None of what happened to him should have been a surprise, as it obviously was to Gore.

[Leilani]

78. That's a really good point!

Gore was caught off guard, & fought a better fight. It was the Dems who failed to support Gore in Florida who should be ashamed.

Kerry knew what was coming. A whole different ballgame. And if he had 17,000 lawyers, he obviously knew what was coming.

Everything I learned about Kerry during the campaign & since, indicates that this is typical Kerry behavior.

[rfkrfk]

138. We are the victim

The Democratic Party did not nominate its
stongest candidate.
.
Blame...
goofy, geography and timing of primaries
name confusion
vote splitting, between similiar candidates
........
Democrats in the 48 non New-Iohampshire states deserve
a voice.

[LTRS]

22. So you don't think he has any obligation....

to step up and keep his word about making sure the votes are counted? You don't believe he has any obligation to speak out about the electoral system in this country?

See, because having spent 6 mths at 20 hrs a week working to get him elected I think he DOES have that obligation.

[elshiva]

26. Thanks LittleClarkie for the paintng

Still think that Kerry is pretty strong the queer issuses. Just cos he didn't show up to vote for something proves nothing.
I don't think Dean and Kerry are at all weak or inconsitent on queer rights. VT court didn't have to drag Dean into anything Both of them as Christians believe that God made people queer. (Dean said to the Washington Post that it was genetic, so God made us that way so we deserve the same rights as he and Dr. Judy do. Official platform for the K/E campaign was civil unions and equal rights for queers. Then the third debate Kerry said queers are the children of God and so be protected under constitution.)
For that I love Dean, Kerry, and Kucinich. I cry to think none of the these great people became president. :cry: :cry: :cry:

[LTRS]

28. Sorry, you're just factual wrong about that

You posted: "VT court didn't have to drag Dean into anything"

The Vermont courts said the state either had to legalize marriage or allow civil unions. Dean took the option that he felt was the lesser of two evils. Had the Vermont legislature and Dean been supportive of equal rights the battle would not have been won in the courts because it would never have gotten there.

[housewolf]

47. Gorgeous!

Oh LittleClarkie,

The portrait of JK is GORGEOUS! He looks rather like a young Greek god, don't you think? Deep in thought and consideration... Is this your work?

Thank you!

[LittleClarkie]

91. I wish I could paint that well

Here's the artist info:

"'JOHN KERRY, APRIL 1971,' by Elizabeth Peyton, Gavin Brown's Enterprise, 620 Greenwich Street, at Leroy Street, West Village, [phone]. Part of a portfolio of 14 works commissioned by Artforum magazine for its September issue."

It was in the NYT just before the RNC. I clipped it out, laminated it and put it in my wallet. I love his eyes in this portrait.

You're welcome.

[JohnKleeb]

48. He also voted for the boxer amendment which would have reversed

"Don't ask, Don't tell" and has been ever since he first became a senator a big supporter of GLBT, plus I admire that he said no to what Clinton wanted. I like and admire Kerry for a lot of reasons honestly. Kerry was the only senator up for reelection in '96 who voted against DOMA. IMO Kerry was the most pro GLBT rights candidiate ever ran by the party up to this point.

[donheld]

125. Welcome to DU

:hi:

[Suziq]

13. I Am Not Pissed . . .

because he was a good candidate. At first, I didn't care for him, but after listening to him speak, I was hooked. I felt his compassion for the middle class and I truly believe he would have made a difference.

As far as conceding too soon - imagine what the media whores would have done to him if he implied voter fraud. They would be calling him a conspiracy theorist, a crackpot and a sore loser. He does, however, have attorneys working in Ohio on the recount.

It really saddens me to think about what might have been . . . .

:hippie:

[geek tragedy]

14. I'm not going to be mad at John Kerry for being John Kerry

He wasn't a very good candidate, but he is who he is. Rather, I'm upset at the people who trotted out the "electable" excuse to avoid voting for someone with a core vision and articulation of values.

And that is the damnable thing, at the end of the day. Howard Dean wasn't any more liberal than Kerry--he just held his beliefs with more conviction. In the Bob Shrum universe, having strong beliefs means you're not "electable."

[LTRS]

17. That begs another question....

Why do our leaders keep hiring Shrum?? That donut head as never won an election for anyone, has he? I don't understand how these people get some much power considering their deplorable track records.

[geek tragedy]

101. Hacks are running the show. They hire their good buddies and supporters

in order to gain influence and support within the party establishment.

It's actually a lot like Peronism.

[Rockerdem]

129. Kerry will always be something of an enigma to me.

It was like he felt he had to run, but didnt have the fire. Therefore, in many ways big and small he would go only half way. He listened to his advisers and they led him astray a few times. But his good qualities eventually took him to the right path (today people are citing a 527, which he disavowed).

Remember the debates. He WAS forceful. He DID fight. In the end, though, I just think that he was glad that the ordeal was over. GOP cockroaches thrive in such crappy situations. But good people are exhausted by stench.

[ecstatic]

134. Exactly

Are we really surprised? Not really. Deep inside, most of us remember how many of the same charges levied against him by Repubs were brought up by our very own during the Democratic primaries. Kerry was the absolute last choice for me, although I supported him when he became the nominee.

[geek tragedy]

137. Howard Dean's people gave him a pair of flip-flops.

The fault lies not in Kerry, but in us.

[lakelly]

15. I'm on the fence

It pissed me off when Kerry conceded so quickly (right after Edwards said that they would make sure all votes were counted.) I did feel let down, almost betrayed. However, I believe him to be a fair and intelligent statesman, one that would have served our country well.
But the real problem is with the part of the American public, so easily deceived and complacent and the republican machinery. A war is being waged in our country, one that will curtail our freedoms, blur the separation of church and state even farther and bankrupt the middle class, all while undoing FDR's New Deal. God help us all. (and they say we're all amoral heathens who never think about god)O8) O8)

[donheld]

126. Welcome to DU

:hi:

BTW Don't sit on the fence. You'll get splinters in your butt. :hurts:

[Beacho]

19. Wrong person to be picked on

The environment that we're in requires superhuman effort in running flawless campaigns, and even that is no guarentee.


Picking on Kerrys campaign is not the answer. We need to go after the usual suspects

Go check out Media Matters to see what I'm talking about

[LTRS]

25. It's kind of amazing how many people don't read

for comprehension....

From my orginal post:

"But that isn't what has really ticked me off about him. What really ticks me off is that he has provided no leadership at all on problems with the voting system. Why is he not at the hearings today? Why has he had not a peep to say about any of it?

Don't tell me it would make him look bad, or like a sore loser.... that's baloney! I don't care how it makes HIM look. This issue is more important than him. He should show some leadership here for goodness sake!"

[sangh0]

33. True. Did you read the post you responded to?

It answers the question you asked "Why aren't you mad at Kerry?"

and you respond by criticizing for not talking about voting issue.

I have to wonder if you only asked the question in order to attack those who responded.

[LTRS]

37. LOL - the thread is ABOUT Kerry not talking about voting

issues. I'm asking the question, why are you not mad that Kerry hasn't spoken up about voting issues. But unfortunately, that isn't the question being answered.

Reading is FUN-damental. :)

[sangh0]

38. Did you read your own subject line?

It says something different.

[LTRS]

40. Is that a DU rule? Gotta fit the whole post in the subject line? Okay,

I will try from now on. LOL!

[sangh0]

42. Gotta?

No, the rules allow people to unreasonably think that an answer to their subject line is non-responsive. I never saw an sort of IQ test one needs to pass to post on DU.

[Rockerdem]

130. It stems from his background the last 15 years

The Senate tames people. It makes them docile over time. The gentility of the place leads them to compromise in areas that they shouldnt.

Rule: dont nominate a Senator. Oops. Make that after '08 ;-)

[UpsideDownFlag]

29. i'd rather be pissed at the party power brokers who chose him. nt

[Jackpine Radical]

30. I'm not pissed at Kerry because I'm delusional and think

that he's lying in the weeds as part of his master plan to retake America. He's gonna wait for the recounts to declare him the winner, and then...

[LTRS]

39. LOL! (n/t)

[Leilani]

79. If the weeds are in the Senate, that's where he is right now

because he voted aye on the Intelligence Reform Bill not long ago.

[LittleClarkie]

118. I'm not pissed and I'm not delusional

and I think he's doing exactly what he said he would do. No more, no less. No hidden messages, no translations. Counting the votes and fighting for the issues. Giving money to recounts and setting up a PAC. Going to Iraq to see for himself what's going on there. Sending a health care bill to Congress with the petition accompanying it.

I refuse to blame the victim here or speculate negatively when I have no earthly idea what's going on at the moment.

[zara]

31. stress shortens your life

don't worry, be happy

[greenohio]

32. I'm not pissed.

I just don't feel like beating up the guy who worked his butt off for us.

[LTRS]

44. He OWES me and others more than cut and run

on voting issues. I don't understand why we don't hold our leaders accountable for their lack of leadership. It leaves me with the feeling that he wouldn't have stuck up for us or even himself had he won.

[greenohio]

49. Kerry owes you?

He was running for all of us. We're all pissed about this. There were many people who worked hard on this campaign.

[LTRS]

53. Let me ask you something...

what does the phrase "me AND OTHERS" mean to you? Or did your eyeballs skip right over that part??

He owes me and others, as in ALL OF US who busted their asses on his campaign better than just cutting and running and ignoring these voting problems. It is beyond rude to ask people to send money and volunteer their time and stand in line for hours to vote for you if you can't LIFT YOUR ASS OFF A CHAIR when it's all said and done and demand that the voting system be fixed.

Apparently voters and candidates should be taking their clues from the Ukraine.

[greenohio]

100. Let me tell you something.

No I didn't skip that part. But there are also others who worked their tail off who don't have this sense of entitlement. Who don't believe that Kerry should do what they say, because he owes them.

[angrydemocrat]

116. He Owes You?

LMAO! What a joke. Hell you people seem to forget your not the only one's that lost something here. We all did including Kerry. You people are not the only ones that worked your ass off to win this we all did including Kerry. You seem to forget there is more than one way to skin a cat. Just because the man don't screaming jumping up and down doesn't mean he isn't doing anything or standing up for himself. This election was stolen from all of us including Kerry. People need to take their damn blinders off and wake up and realize this is not only about me it is about all of us and quit playing the blame game! It will take all of us to change what has happen and to prove this election was stolen. Kerry knows what the hell he is doing. Hell he was an attorney himself. He knows what he has to do in order to have a case that will hold up in the court of law. He knows what is counted as real evidence and circumstancle evidence. He knows how to put together a case to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that people are guilty so they can be brought down and prosecuted. The man has done this many many times in his career. Even in the Senate. Oh sure you can rush and grab up the little man and put all the blame on them but the hell with that we need the top dogs in this crap not just the little man.

[sangh0]

34. All of my "piss" is directed at bush* and the bfee

and I still don't have enough, so why waste some on Kerry?

[JohnKleeb]

43. because if you were a real democrat, you'd treat Kerry like a common repub

:P
I am kidding obviously.

[sangh0]

52. heh

you got it, John!

[JohnKleeb]

54. Hah thanks

I had a victory last night, and my conclusions are people talk a lot of hyperbole. Someone was saying, Gephardt was a right wing democrat because of the rose garden, and I being a Gephardt defender because of my very pro labor views and background said now that vote was wrong and the apperane too, but you can't judge a man because of one vote, and I think he got the point. I was reading today about corporate influx of politics, and read an interesting quote by a guy named Shapiro whos part of the Progressive Policy Instutite, a think tank of everyone's favorite boogeyman the DLC, he was saying something like the hypocrisy of the republicans to complain about welfare of the poor but then to support things like corporate welfare is sickening. I doubt thats something a bushlite would say.

[sangh0]

55. Exactly!

but you can't judge a man because of one vote

As I'm sure you know from some of the other threads, there isn't a Dem "leader" (ie JFK, FDR, LBJ, etc) who hasn't done something un-liberal

[JohnKleeb]

64. ahh the heroes have their flaws

and yes you cant judge a person because of one vote or two, this is why I defended Kerry.

[LTRS]

58. And there lay the reason our politicians suck

... it's because we expect nothing of them and refuse to hold them accountable. I'll not spend another dime of my money or moment of my time working for cut and run wussie dems who won't stand up for the people who stood up for them. Maybe if enough of us do that they will get the message.

[sangh0]

63. Yep, that's what I said

in some other universe

[ecstatic]

135. Dean would have fought for us

No doubt in my mind. I truly believed in him, if for no other reason than his passion and conviction.

[Cuban_Liberal]

36. I'm using my rage to fight Bush, and his evil cabal.

I'm not going to savage a good and decent man who did the best he knew how to do for our party.

[JohnKleeb]

41. I am with Cuban Liberal

My energy isn't meant for being pissed at a fellow democrat who I like and admire very much, its meant for people who want to privatize social security, screw the poor, discriminate against people, etc, why should I be mad at Kerry, yes, he conceded but still.

[Cheswick2.0]

45. I am not pissed at Kerry because

I never expected anything different from him.

[LTRS]

51. I can relate to that...

... but he had me going there for a bit, after the convention. Turns out he was just what I feared he would be. A say one thing, do another, politician.

[DFLforever]

81. A typical, average, ordinary politician in an extraordinary time

We've lost big, not Kerry. He's day-dreaming right now about 2008.

While we're stuck with a dead republic and a neo-fascist government.

[Generator]

46. Well I'm torn

That concession speech was probably the worst move of his life. I don't know how he can overcome those pathetic words (healing?? with liars and thieves??!!) and the timing that will forever leave us all a little stunned and feeling betrayed.

That said, if he honestly believes he is up against such corruption that there was no way he believes he could win, then I guess that would explain conceeding. If he wants to be an true opposition voice in the Senate, Lord knows we need that. And though most of us believe fighting for voter rights and fighting NOW to defeat the boy Emperor would be the higher priority-I can certainly forgive him if he goes on and does good things in the Senate.

If he's not sworn in next month, then he has no chance of ever being President in his lifetime. I hope he realizes that. Even for us that adored him, it's too painful and that bitterness will not go away. It was an all or nothing deal.

It was the most important election of our lifetime-or it wasn't.(I suppose if he managed to bring down BushCo himself some other way than being elected, then I could eat those words)

And it's funny-he still, after everything, makes me feel good when I see him. I can't not like the guy. It would be easier if I could.

[Leilani]

114. I doubt he'll be much of a voice of opposition...

Today the Senate debated & voted on the Intelligence Reform Bill.

2 Senators made opposition speeches & voted NO.

They were Byrd & Infofe.

Kerry went to the floor, voted aye, & left.

[Dr Ron]

50. It's not so easy

Saying "I am not a flip flopper" would have led to more people considering him a flip flopper.

He did not ignore the issue. His strategy was to try to present a clear vision of himself to counteract this view. He also played on the opposite opinion of Bush of being overly rigid, even when things are going bad.

Sure, he could have done better, but he was faced with a well run smear campaign. While we do need to look at better ways of countering such campaigns in the future, it does't do any good to dump on Kerry. If he picked up a relatively small number of additional votes in Ohio, people would be saying how brilliant his campaign was.

[zulchzulu]

59. Simple response to this opinion

Kerry made comments about the election and what he plans to do on 11/9/04:
MP3

The amount of votes (stolen or not) was too wide for Kerry to demand a recount immediately after the election, hence his concession speech (which is not legally binding).

He and his team of people HAVE been in Florida, Ohio and other trouble spots nationally. There have been comments and press releases about it.

In terms of Kerry answering back to one of the most negative campaigns in American history, there were answers back in the ads playing in swing states. In Wisconsin and travels to Missouri, there were lots of ads on both sides. If anything, the media NEVER covered the flip-flops that Bush has done...they interviewed liars as though these people were legitimate.

Rove knew that Kerry would have $75 Million to use on August 1, 2004 with three months to stretch it out. That's when they hammered the SBVFT ads that were answered back, but also had plenty of coverage in the media even after the lies told by SBVFT were debunked. The campaign couldn't spend all their money early and be sitting ducks in late October.

The media was complicit with that as well as would show minimal coverage of the campaign events that were happening. I remember seeing some Kerry stories that would last 30 seconds and then that was it.

Sure you could go to Factcheck.org or the very busy debunking section of the Kerry site, but not that many people would, in my opinion.

We didn't win with enough votes to have enough padding for the 30% of voting machines that were electronic nationally. We got gamed by Diebold and can't count invisible or untraceable votes.

Kerry is still Senator and will continue to try to stop Bush in his tracks when possible. If he doesn't, I'll make sure to give him a piece of my mind.

What I learned about this election cycle is that we need voter reform, political ad and campaign finance reform, media reform and the ability of voters to have broadband communications with the candidate so they don't need to watch Fox to find out what is "going on".

Additionally, all elections do get down to boots on the ground and grassroots organizing and political campaigns need to have tools that allow for people to print out, videos to download and play and audio to make CDs of for distribution. I made a website that tried to fill in that need (www.kerrysupport.com).

I sincerely think Kerry did as best as he could with what he faced. For one that had to compete with a wartime president, he did very well. Having to compete against a dominant right-leaning corporate media made his message difficult to get out.

[LTRS]

60. So you give Kerry a pass about not speaking up

about election reform and our voting system? You're not alone, of course. Most people do give him a pass on that.

I happen to think that's part of the problem. We get the representatives we deserve. Kind of sad that the rest of us have to bear them too though.

[zulchzulu]

66. Did you listen to the MP3 where he stated what he thought on 11/9/04?

Listen to it.

[LTRS]

68. I listened to it - no one else did though

Where he'd make it? In his bathroom?

[zulchzulu]

71. It was on the Kerry web site

http://www.johnkerry.com/petition/everychild.php

I made an MP3 file of it, which the Kerry people actually should have had available.

[LTRS]

73. Oh,, well that was brave of him

[sangh0]

74. and brave of you to make untrue statements

like "Kerry didn't speak up about this" and then not acknowledging your mistake.

Who else can't acknowledge their mistakes?

[LTRS]

80. "Speaking up" is not recording an mpeg for a website

Good lord, what has become of this party when that is all that is expected of a guy we worked our asses off for and donated millions of dollars to???

[zulchzulu]

90. I understand your frustration, but....

Kerry HAS been working on the fraud issues and WILL be working on election and voter reform. I'll make sure he does with what little voice I have. He could be more obvious on his web site, hence the reason little old me made an MP3 and a downloadable MPG available on my site (www.kerrysupport.com).

It just seems to be the bitching du jour to make inaccurate claims that Kerry hasn't been doing "anything". I've heard some of the AAR hosts saying this and wonder if they have been doing their homework.

Granted, most of Kerry's strategies on finding out about voter fraud are under the radar. I trust his background as a prosecutor and his courage in investigating the BCCI and Iran-Contra scandals are being used.

The battle isn't over. It's stealth...hopefully Kerry will have some evidence to bring up to the media without being tarpapered as a "sore sport".

[LTRS]

92. Why do you think that?

If he has been doing ANYTHING about it, it's the best kept secret in the party. I'm not an unconnected person. He isn't doing anything. And even if he was doing things under the radar, that doesn't cut it. He needs to be vocal.

[zulchzulu]

94. Sheesh...fugetaboutit

I point to a sound file done over a month ago, mention press releases where he and the campaign are on the ground in Ohio, Florida and other spots and you still say he is "doing nothing".

Never mind. You just don't want to acknowledge that he IS doing something...without being some whiney screamer that makes a fool out of himself.

He still has some years in the Senate, but I guess you'd rather him blow his cool and be seen as an idiot. Whatever.

[stopthenoise]

61. Maybe

He doesn't believe there was fraud. I'm not going to assume he's too much of a coward to step forward.

Is a new group forming here? The Swift Boat Vets against Kerry's reluctance to step forward?


Their other name was more catchy

[LTRS]

65. That's even more scary

... that he doesn't think there is anything wrong with our voting system. Of course he didn't think so before the election either. But there is. Clearly.

[stopthenoise]

There's a difference

between there being problems with our voting system and fraud occuring in the past election.

[LTRS]

69. Yes, and the difference is we knew BEFORE

the election that there were problems with our voting system. And he ignored it then too.

[Lady Sonelle]

98. Actually...

You asked
> Is a new group forming here? The swift Boat Vets against Kerry's reluctance to step forward?

If they do, I vote they be titled "Justice MisKerryed"

Lady Sonelle

[Doomsayer13]

62. no monday morning quarterbacks

he did the best he could with the hand he was dealt.

[Cheswick2.0]

93. then we need to disolve the party

If Kerry is the best we could do and he couldn't beat bush and we think therefor that no one can beat bush....well then we are dead.

[Doomsayer13]

113. I didn't say that kerry was the best we could do

but he did the best he could with the circumstances he was given. Obviously some changes need to be made - this need not involve trashing Kerry, which doesn't strike me as a solution.

[Guava Jelly]

67. Kerry is a smart cookie.

Ever think he may have his own STRATEGERY!!
Time will tell.
I understand why he did what he did.
Blowing up would have turned a hostile media on Kerry of AL-GORIAN proportions.
Counting under that 24 / 7 stress would never have gotten this far..
Just imho

[JI7]

70. because

he cares more about trying to do things to help people out with their lives much more than he cares about what they or others think of him.

[LTRS]

72. Great - if that's the case he can get started by...

speaking up loudly and clearly about our voting system.

[ohioan]

76. And, as soon as the facts are in - not just unproven conspiracy theories

that's just what he should do. In the meantime, I respect him for keeping his own counsel while his lawyers, operatives and others try to sort out the fact from the fiction. It might not be as emotionally satisfying as hearing him rant and rave and throw red meat to the most rabid of us, but it's the much wiser course of action.

[LTRS]

83. The facts were in on election day

... when people stood in line for 7 and 8 hrs to vote in Ohio, Mr Ohioan. Since then more evidence has come to light everyday.

Kerry wussed out. And there is a hell of a lot of daylight between that and "ranting and raving."

[ohioan]

120. It's MS Ohioan

And what proof do you have that people standing in line for several hours was caused by fraud? Who was responsible for it? What support do you have to show that they orchestrated this in order to change the results of the election?

Please state your evidence.

[Cory Laf]

77. Bush

Bush consumes all of my anger, rage, frustration, and i just don;t have enough for Kerry.

[donheld]

127. Welcome to DU

:hi:

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

85. Not pissed. Disgusted would be more like it.

Ever since he voted for the war. Hypocritical coward.

[Catchawave]

86. I'm not pissed at Kerry....

...I'm pissed at campaign/voting/election systems that enable dirty politics.

[LTRS]

87. And our leaders have no obligation to do anything

... about it?

[DistressedAmerican]

97. As long as he stays silent on the issue

he IS the "campaign/voting/election system". Not fighting it openly only enables it. Proves to them that they can get away with and the Dems won't fight them because they will be accused of "sour grapes". Come on! Kerry has sold us out to protect his personal political ambitions for the future. Co-dependent power addict!

I think it is spineless and sickening. Much like his campaign.

[Lady Sonelle]

88. Kerry Is A Man Of Honour...

Once bought, he STAYS bought.

Or perhaps terrified by threats to his family. Whatever the cqause, he is silent because he refuses to partake in this.

Face it. He is NOT on our side and perhaps never was.

I have stopped trusting the Democrats completely. The whole job-lot of the isn't worth the power to blow them to Hell. Are they infiltrated? Yes! Are they bought, or intimidated? Yes! are they completely useless. clueless, irrelevant? Yes!

As for Kerry: Give up on him. He has shown his colours and they are yellow, yellow, YELLOW! Unless he has had serious threats to his family, (in which case, he ought to have sent them out of the country!) he is a cowardly, craven, gutless, spineless sack of offal with not the slightest degree of intestinal fortitude! If he is bought, I curse the money they gave him! I sincerely hope it brings him only misery!

Pfaugh! I'm shut of the entire LOT of lying, spineless Democrats in the party! They're not fit to wipe My shoes!

Fool Me once, shame on them. Fool Me twice and I'm joining the Weather Underground!

Lady Sonelle

[zulchzulu]

111. Que la merde a ton tete

You must me roleplaying...OK, I get it now.

[catbert836]

89. I'm not

And I think any Kerry bashers out there should run for public office with the goal of being president to see what it's like.

[JohnKleeb]

103. yeah really

All the public scrunity, etc.

[snippy]

96. Because it is counterproductive.

I don't give a shit about winning the last election. I want to win the next election.

As for the hearings, Conyers is doing good work for now but any election reform will have to be done by the next Congress. The democratic party as a whole needs to develop reasons now for passing election reform next year. There is no need for Kerry to be involved. In fact, if he was involved now then he would be the story rather than the need for election reform. The republican party would have a field day making Kerry the issue.

[youngred]

105. Why would I be pissed?

he didn't run as good of a campaign as he could have or should have. But he also ran against the best political machine we've seen in decades against a popular president in a time of chaos with an ignorant public. Should he have done better? ABSOLUTELY. But it's also not entirely his fault. We don't need to beat up our own now. We need to fight Bush.

Just NEVER EVER EVER let Shrum manage ANY campaign EVER again

[eridani]

106. He's way at the bottom of my list of people to be pissed off at

Much more pissed at voting machine companies, campaign consultants, the media.

[robbedvoter]

107. Not pissed on campaigning - he won. Not rehashing primary.

As for his actions after November 2nd....:argh:

[PopSixSquish]

108. No, I'm Not

And I'd rather save my vitriol for the Republicans and W.

[ThorsHammer]

109. Not pissed at him, but.....

I wish he would have confronted the SBVFT more. The timing really hurt him, and could have made the difference.

I also wish he would have confronted Bush more about the Iraq war. He could have explained his so-called support for it as being that he wanted to remove Saddam, but wanted to go about any way in a proper way (UN, allies, post-war plan, etc). Many people don't want to 'change horses midstream' in wartime, but he could have pointed out that the 'horse' we had was weak and unable.


I'm not as upset with the recount stuff (BBV stuff nonwithstanding, that's about 50 pages of posts here) due to the margins. If it had been by >1000 like FL in 2000, I have no doubt he would have done everything he could. A (reported) margin of 115,000 is much different.

[LisaL]

112. Let's face, Kerry has made mistakes.

That comment he made about still voting for the war resolution even if Iraq didn't have nuclear weapons. WTF was that? Later on he came out and said he wouldn't have been in Iraq, but that perhaps was too little, too late. Also, I feel Bush should have been bashed way more than he was. That going positive thing does not really work. People only say they want positive campaign, but trashing your opponent works every time.
Bush Co sure wasn't shy about trashing Kerry any way they could.
Also, election FRAUD-HTF did we end up allowing republicans to count the votes? Kerry thinks he will run in 2008-what does he think will change at that time. If anything, repukes will install more e-voting machines.

[ThorsHammer]

115. Agreed

Yeah, he has made some mistakes, but overall still did a much better job (campaigning) than Bush. The war resolution thing was weird, but keep in mind BushCo really was pushing the chemical weapons, WMDs, etc, not just nukes. He could have easily said that he voted to give Bush the power to go to war, but that Bush abused it. I definitely agree Bush should have been bashed more. He certainly provided more than enough ammo over the last few years (speaking of, I hope "That's My Bush" comes back to Comedy Central). Fraud - I'm not sure how the vote counting works, but had assumed it was bipartisan. Having just one side count, whether D or R, seems a little sketchy.

[LittleClarkie]

117. I thought something I saw in the Boston Globe was interesting

and he should have just admitted it if this was the case, but perhaps he figured no one would believe him.

In a post election article, I read that when he was asked that question at the Grand Canyon, the wind covered up part of it so that Kerry didn't hear the whole thing -- the "knowing what we know now" part. Apparently his hearing isn't 100% from being in combat.

Aides remarked that Kerry said he thought he was being asked the standard question about the IWR and he gave his standard answer. They thought about issuing a clarification but feared they'd just be adding to the flip-flop business, so they didn't.

If true, they should have explained just that. Even if the Repubs made fun, it couldn't have been any worse.

[ThorsHammer]

140. Very interesting, I had not heard that

I really wish he had explained it further. The "knowing what we know now" part really sums up his position: that he voted to give Bush the power to go to war based on the information available, but that Bush abused this power. In general, I would have liked to see Kerry on the attack more, especially w/r/t Iraq. Off the top of my head it's been a reckless war, has cost us many lives (U.S. Iraqi, others), has broken alliances, has likely spawned (?, not sure if that's the right word) many more terrorists, and has diverted billions from infinitely more worthy domestic causes (health care and education to name a few). Kerry played too nice, especially with the ammo Bush provided over his term.

[LisaL]

110. I agree. I heard some stupid comments from Bush supporters

about Kerry being no hero and his wounds not being serious and other such crap. Those swift boat vets and their lies really did work on some people. People are just stupid. Never mind Bush has no wounds of any kinds, but people are dumb. I wish somehow those lies were addressed better then they were.

[LiberalAndProud]

121. Today I would rather talk about why I am pissed.

Today I am PISSED!

Common courtesy dicates that he should have taken a notable interest in the House Forum today. I mean COMMON COURTESY for cryin' out loud!

[IndyPriest]

122. How can you be pissed at a guy who WON?

AND who is laying a great trap for The Machine?

[donheld]

128. If i am mad at Kerry

what does that accomplish?

[Califooyah Operative]

131. I think its too early to judge,

also, i respect him, he's a politician, and he plays the game, hes realistic, and wants to keep fighting the fight. He's a person just like anyone else who's going to sin and make mistakes and such. And I will never forget the fact that he got more votes than anyone in history aside from bush. So it aint over, it never is, it's politics.

[BansheeDem]

132. I'm not mad at Kerry ...

but he could have run a much better campaign; and he could be more aggressive in addressing the fraud issue. Too little too late I think sums it up.

[ecstatic]

133. People who are not angry must not be angry with Bush either

I wanted Bush gone *so bad* that it felt like a slap in the face when Kerry dropped off the scene so soon after the fraudulent election. He basically left us without a voice or debate. Outside groups had to take up the charge, and the media barely acknowledges what's going on. Why? Because Kerry was silent. His silence gave *'s reinsertion legitimacy.

[robbedvoter]

136. If you actually READ most posts, all pretty much agree on that

People mostly make the point that criticizing campaigning is irrelevant as we won. Listening skills are useful.

[KerryDownUnder]

139. I understand all sides on this issue...

but you have to admit that the way Kerry talked on November 1 and the way he has talked since November 3 are very, very different. That doesn't mean you have to be "mad" at Kerry, but it is quite vexing that he conceded if he really wanted to draw attention to all these problems. The media would probably start each interview with "How do you think you can win, Senator?", but, then again, at least they'd be talking about the MASSIVE voting irregularities on an every day basis...and not just on Countdown.

Do you think Conyers' hearings would have gotten more play had a) Kerry not conceded and b) Kerry been there? Yeah, me too...

[Imagevision]

142. You sound as thugh nohing has been accomplised since Nov.2nd.!

Kerry like Rove can't make any moves until recounts-investigations run their course. People who don't understand the way this game is being played are crying the blues because Kerry isn't out there screamiong fraud!

The system is working not too badly..but I'm sure I do more research then you might?

[ever_green]

143. Good questions. Sore loser...if he wants to run again, that is selfish.

He should be thinking of us, not himself and his plans for the future, what will be left of it after Bush and friends...
Why couldn't he just say the war was wrong and we shouldn't have been in there and HE wouldn't have led us to war. He never REALLY made it clear.