Pelosi says "...troops in Iraq are practicing Good Will Towards Men."

[KoKo]

Was listening to her Press Conference on C-Span earlier, and she ended it by talking about supporting our troops in Iraq over the holidays whether we agreed or not with how the war was prosecuted. She then ended with the statement "....our troops in Iraq are practicing Good Will Towards Men." Anyone else catch that? What the hell did she mean?
:crazy:

:eyes:

[genius]

1. They are doing god's work of massacring children on Christmas Eve.

[genius]

3. Pelosi needs to remember she's a Democrat. She's a terrible leader

Her support for the Intelligence Ref Act and her failure to give McKinney back her seniority (probably jealousy) are all signs of terrible leadership.

[blackangrydem]

12. Massacaring children?

No wonder the democratic party is seen as "anti-military".

[Bouncy Ball]

15. I think we are probably

anti-killing children.

Aren't you?

I'm anti-killing innocent people, too.

[blackangrydem]

19. Our military is not massacaring children.

[Bouncy Ball]

21. Define "massacre."

We have killed, by most estimates, between 100,000 and 200,000 Iraqis since March of 2003. Many of those have been children. In the early parts of the war, we accidentally bombed a Baghdad maternity hospital.

Not only that but the death by malnutrition rate among children in Iraq has doubled in that time, as well. It's WORSE than when SH was running the place. Death by dehydration up to horrible levels too. Lack of clean water and clean facilities, diarrhea and all that.

So again, define massacre.

You take that comment as anti-military, but the military isn't the one who comes up with the orders. They are merely the tool. It's the arm weilding the tool that most of us here are pissed at. And that would be the bush administration.

[blackangrydem]

23. Terrorists attacking a place of business, worship or entertainment

with the intent of killing innocent civilians = massacre.

A uniformed military attempting to capture or kill combatants and accidentally kill civilians because the enemy is hiding amongst them is not.

[Bouncy Ball]

25. See my definition below

which is taken from the dictionary. Your definition amounts to no more than propaganda.

Do you think the Iraqi man who lost his wife, children and grandchildren to the US bombs thinks it was not a massacre?

[genius]

32. So killing children is okay if a uniformed serviceman does it?

What makes the serviceman differerent from a terrorist when he is invading someone else's country, dropping jellied gasoline and radioactive materials on its occupants, all in the name of oil?

[Bouncy Ball]

33. Watch out

you'll get called "anti-military!" :eyes:

[genius]

35. I'm really proud of the servicemen in Canada who are refusing

to obey illegal and immoral orders. They are true heroes and excellent examples.

[ElectroPrincess]

63. Hey, instead of picking apart each other and our poor bloody

infantrymen who often are stop lossed against their will, let's put the blame where it is appropriate:

The TOP LEADERSHIP in the USA government (both civilian and military). I'm sick of seeing the enlisted soldiers being made the scapegoats when it is the "top generals", civilian leaders and Rumsfeld himself who have DICTATED this "Rat Patrol meets Road Warrior" mentality amongst the ranks within our military.

Remember our soon to be Secretary of Justice views provisions in the Geneva Conventions as "quaint." Why, seemingly short of organ failure, it's considered A OK to do what you have to...

Yes, personal responsibility is always with the individual but our military's nationalistic propagandized policy of hate originates with Rumsfeld. You mean he hasn't resigned yet?!?

[Nordic]

42. by your definition, our military are terrorists in Iraq

Why do you think we're all so angry and pissed off?

because this is true.

We don't want to be a part of it

We don't want our tax dollars to pay for it.

It's the truth and the truth hurts.

Sorry, but you might want to get used to it.

[LynnTheDem]

45. What utter BULLSHIT.

We "ACCIDENTALLY KILLED" 100,000 civilians???

If the US military does it, it's NOT "massacre"??? ONLY if "bad guys" do it???

And just WTF was Mai Lai in YOUR book???

I know a board you'd be MUCH more in step on. Jebus fcking Cripes.

[manic expression]

60. Look around

we are doing the same thing.
The terrorists (who are a completely different faction from the Iraqi resistance groups, mind you) are able to carry out these attacks because the US Military invaded. Furthermore, they usually kill innocent civilians when targeting the US or those associated with them (this is no excuse, however). The US doesn't help this situation by committing such atrocities as it has (widespread throughout the invasion and occupation), allowing terrorist (and resistance) groups to easily recruit new members who in turn assist in these actions.

[proudbluestater]

84. Would that include bombing hospitals? We've loved doing that!

[Bouncy Ball]

24. Here's the definition:

The act or an instance of killing a large number of humans indiscriminately and cruelly.

Certainly the Iraqi children we have killed have been killed indiscriminately, since if we were discriminate about it, no children would have been killed! (The military doesn't WANT to kill Iraqi children, to be sure!).

Cruelly? I don't know a person on this site who would say what we are doing in Iraq isn't cruel. And I don't know anyone who would say that killing children, even accidentally, isn't cruel.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bouncy Ball]

30. Excuse me I am NOT anti-military

Kinda hard to be when I am the wife, daughter, daughter-in-law, granddaughter and great-granddaughter of vets.

I think the military deserves to be treated FAR better than they are.

You are mistaking a criticism of the DIRECTIVES given to the military with a criticism OF the military.

They are two very different things.

The guy you responded to chose to use the word "massacre." I would use the word "killing." You CANNOT argue that we are not killing Iraqis. That we have not been killing Iraqis. We have and we ARE.

And for what?

Or do you believe that very few innocents have been killed in this?

:eyes:

[genius]

34. When our servicemen act as terrorists they are terrorists and that's

not anti-military. In fact its pro-military because it assumes that have the ability to think and say no to illegal and immoral orders.

[blackangrydem]

36. So you are saying that our 150K troops over there are all willingly

obeying immoral orders?

[Bouncy Ball]

40. Let's see.

The war itself, a preventive attack on a country that did nothing to us and posed us no harm is immoral. (Look up "preventive war" and "pre-emptive war" in Wikopedia.)

You draw your own conclusions from there.

Again, no one is blaming the MILITARY but the ones at the TOP who planned and executed this unjust war.

[Nordic]

41. you need to see some photos

warning, not for the faint of heart:

(And if you don't think "massacre" is the right word, well, I don't know what you call deliberately killing thousands of civilians)

http://www.iraqvictims.com/

http://www.shianews.com/hi/middle_east/news_id/0000758.php

http://www.marchforjustice.com/id191.htm

http://www.einswine.com/atrocities/iraq/?pic=166

http://fallujapictures.blogspot.com/

[blackangrydem]

46. Not saying civilian deaths don't happen and that they are not abhorrable.

No one argues that. The pix have the same effect of anti-abortionists showing pics of aborted fetuses. I wouldn't use that as a tactic.


My point was simply that I don't think our troops are in the business of conducting massacres. If that is the case, it would be assinine to say "I support our troops."

Do you support our troops?

[Nordic]

56. You want me to make a generalization? I won't.

I don't give a blanket endorsement of any group of people. It's narrow minded and the same as racist.

At the same time, to say our troops are doing "goodwill" is ludicrous. Soldiers are trained to kill and destroy. That's it.

Once the killing and destroying is done, they need to leave.

[blackangrydem]

74. Kill and Destroy yes. Massacre children, no.

[Nordic]

80. Yeah? We killed people in their beds in Fallujah. Dogs at their bodies

how is that not criminal?

Look at these photos: Most of these people were shot in their beds.

http://dahrjamailiraq.com/gallery/view_album.php?set_albumName=album28

Then the dogs ate their bodies.

This is what your "troops" are doing in Fallujah

[Trajan]

39. I support our military ....

I support them because THEY are US ...

They are our fathers and sons, our mothers and daughters, our uncles and aunts, and our nieces and nephews ....

They have no political agenda .... they are tools of the state ....

That being said:

IF you choose to shoot into a house which you know contains innocent children and/or mothers and/or grandpas and grandmas, and you kill a number of those innocents ... EVEN IF you are trying to kill bad men .... you could certainly be said to have committed a 'massacre' ...

The definition is difficult an ascertain, but let's simply define it by the RESULTS ....

When many innocents are killed: we usually call this a massacre ....

IF it can be shown that there were other methods of dealing with 'bad men' other than attacking locations which were KNOWN to contain innocent human beings, then one CAN define such acts as immoral ... and if those acts kill a large number of innocents, the definition of that killing COULD be defined as a 'massacre' ...

IF there is justification for taking action, even with the presence of innocents in a location, then we might not use such a term ... but such moments, where there is CLEARLY a immediate threat to our soldiers if they do NOT take immediate action, must be rare .... we might define such actions as 'regrettable' and 'unfortunate but necessary', whenever they occur, but really: is it ALWAYS absolutely necessary .... or rarely ???

How do you know which is true while sitting in your study or at your desk ? ...

Like it or not: just because our military, whom we support, are in the middle of a 'police action' in another land, this doesnt give them carte blanche to shoot ANYWHERE to get 'bad men' ... they must use their heads, and make every attempt to protect innocent human beings, if such possible avenues of action exist .....

The idea that "WE dont commit massacres because it is our military acting on our behalf" is simply false ....

It is BECAUSE they are acting on our behalf that we MUST demand absolute moral behaviour in all aspects .... NOT where such protections would imminently kill or maim our own soldiers, but where protecting innocent civilians does NOT create an imminent (not 'possible', but 'imminent' ) danger to our soldiers, then they MUST not take action that would harm innocents ....

Though I know most soldiers agree with this, and where the law essentially demands it, and lastly, since or own sense of morals insists upon it: we cannot simply shoot into places where we know innocent human beings exist, but only under the most EXTRAORDINARY circumstances .....

Even if given an order to do so, it is incumbent upon a moral man to deny those such an order ....

We expect those acting on our behalf would act morally, if it is at all possible to do so ....

[lawladyprof]

77. Like the elephant (pardon pun) in the living room

the weecowboy in charge when 9-11 happened (never actually spoken about aloud by MSM), Saddam Hussein was better at controlling Iraq than we are. He did it by fear and brute force. We will not control it unless we are willing to become like him. We try a little here and a little there (and it works--sort of), but the only way to truly control the situation is to become like a dictator, like the man we ousted from power. I thought about the occupation of Europe during WWII during the run-up to this fiasco and wondered if we were truly willing to become like the Nazis because that seemed to me to be the only way to occupy a country and keep the resistance of its people down to manageable levels.

In other words, winning the war but losing our souls in the process.

[htuttle]

2. She's fucking delusional

[hatrack]

4. Did she quote any more Bible verses?

After her sickening performance about two weeks back, I thought she'd be in full Puke Lite mode.

[GR]

5. How Come They Sent This Guy Home On A Stretcher Then...

http://www.salon.com/src/pass/gateway/index.html?http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2004/12/08/coverup/index_np.html

[KoKo]

6. She has very odd mannerisms. She was smiling inappropriately, licking

her teeth with her mouth closed (maybe she was worried about lipstick on her teeth when she smiled). She seemed very nervous. Every time I see her, she's like this. She giggles and smiles at odd times. When she addressed the Democratic National Convention she did this during her speech ...pausing in mid-sentence, smiling and giggling like she's looking for approval or something.

What is wrong with her? How can she have such a powerful position? She seems like someone who might be head of a Ladies Club and fun to know...but in her position she needs more "gravitas." When she ended the Conference with that quote I gave in my post...I almost fell over...:shrug:

I don't mean to sound catty about her...but she's got some really bad PR problems... Is this what we need when we Dems are so desperate?

[Dr.Phool]

7. Does anyone else wonder why

She's the minority leader?

[genius]

8. She's good at getting Dems to vote Republican without thinking.

[UpsideDownFlag]

9. oh, christ. We are well and truly fucked. nt

[genius]

10. We could all call her and ask her to step down as min leader

Dennis would be a good replacement.

[Dr.Phool]

13. Amen brother

[Supersedeas]

31. I'm not impressed with her leadership skills...time for a change

[Nordic]

43. I'd be happy to do that

[TrustingDog]

11. if she said that she's a fricken idiot. n/t

[genius]

37. She also voted that Iraq was involved in 9/11

Resolution 757.

[TrustingDog]

38. however it is done, her ass should be kicked the hell out.

she is not representive of the people I know here, and the people I have come to know here are what real america should be about.

fire her stupid ass.

[genius]

49. I agree

[ohioan]

75. HRes 757 does NOT claim that Iraq was involved in 9/11

If you have a problem with Nancy Pelosi, that's one thing. But distorting her voting record does nothing to help your argument.

By the way, the resolution to which you're referring passed on a 406-16 vote. Some 30 out of 35 CBC members voted in favor of it.

It was hardly some radical, right wing, Bush apologist resolution, so the fact that Nancy Pelosi voted in favor is certainly not a sign that she's kowtowing to the Republicans.

[DireStrike]

14. fallujah in pictures.com

God dammit. Why do our leaders suck so much?

[Bouncy Ball]

17. Very. Good. Question. Indeed.

And I'm sick of waiting on an answer.

Why DO our Dem leaders suck so much?

[w4rma]

16. What the heck did you want her to say instead? I'm serious.

It appears to me that you are being critical for the sake of being critical.

[Bouncy Ball]

18. Question:

Do you think the troops are over there spreading good will?

Do you think the Iraqis think our troops are over there spreading good will?

[DireStrike]

20. How about "Our troops are killing women and children"

And unarmed civilians.

And they threw grenades into homes in Fallujah without knocking or anything, despite assurances that people would be safe if they just stayed indoors.

We are the bad guys here, this war is unjust and our tactics are in violation of every tenet of international law.

Hmm wait, lemme guess... she voted for the war so she can't say any of that?

[Doomsayer13]

76. Ummmmm. Pelosi voted against the war

the reason why she can't say that is because she's the friggin Minority Leader for goddsake - she's the leader of our party and can't be percieved as "anti-troop"

[KoKo]

26. It's from Dicken's "Christmas Carol"..."Peace on Earth, Good Will to Men."

So, maybe she was being sarcastic? By leaving out the "Peace on Earth" part of that well known quote..she was leaving the statement out there to be sarcastic or ironic, maybe?

That's the best I can say about it.. :shrug:

On Edit: It's also in a carol called "I Heard the Bells on Christmas Day."

Here's a quote about it in a speech Dickens gave:

It seems to me to be a moral, delightful, and happy chance, that this meeting has been held at this genial season of the year, when a new time is, as it were, opening before us, and when we celebrate the birth of that divine and blessed Teacher, who took the highest knowledge into the humblest places, and whose great system comprehended all mankind. I hail it as a most auspicious omen, at this time of the year, when many scattered friends and families are re-assembled, for the members of this institution to be calling men together from all quarters, with a brotherly view to the general good, and a view to the general improvement; as I consider that such designs are practically worthy of the faith we hold, and a practical remembrance of the words, "On earth peace, and good will toward men." I hope that every year which dawns on your Institution, will find it richer in its means of usefulness, and grayer-headed in the honour and respect it has gained. It can hardly speak for itself more appropriately than in the words of an English writer, when contemplating the English emblem of this period of the year, the holly-tree:
Mr. Dickens concluded by quoting the last three stanzas of Southey`s poem, THE HOLLY TREE.

http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:USEYt5ew9R8J:www.mostweb.cc/Classics/Dickens/speeches/speeches46.html+Peace+on+Earth,+Good+Will+to+Men,+Dickens&hl=en

[mikeytherat]

68. It's actually a bit older than Dickens...

The angel said to the shepherds,
"Do not be afraid.

Behold,
I bring you good tidings of great joy to all people!

There is born to you this day in the city of David
A Savior, who is Christ the Lord.

This will be the sign to you:
You will find a Babe wrapped in swaddling cloths, Lying in a manger."

Suddenly there was with the angel
a multitude of the heavenly host
praising God and saying:

"Glory to God in the highest,
and on earth peace,
goodwill toward men!"
Luke 2.10-14

mikey_the_rat

[KoKo]

28. w4rma, I answered you in Post # 26 as best I could. Maybe she just

should have ended it with saying she was thinking about our troops in this holiday season and that they were serving their country no matter what we think about how this "war was prosecuted." :shrug:

[GR]

44. I Agree, She's Much Better Than Gephart And Better Than Daschle...

She may have said something stupid here, but she did get a lot of dems to vote against the damn $87B. She does seem nervous though and needs to get over that...

[Nordic]

57. how aboutt "war is a tragic necessity, let's get it over with"

[genius]

61. That the war is immoral and illegal - like the kid in Canada said.

on 60 Minutes.

[ernstbass]

22. WTF????

[patomime]

29. She forgot ....

her meds today.:eyes:

[Disturbed]

47. Leadership?

This person is an emberassment. No wonder the Dem Party is such a weasle filled club, the so called leadership are wak weasles.

[JNelson6563]

48. I've lost a lot of respect for her

Between this idiotic blather and her mantra of I stand shoulder to shoulder with pResident Bush I would happily tell her to wipe her nose off if I met her in person.

Julie

[DaveinMD]

50. This thread is crazy

That is beyond ludicrous. That is offensive. Our troops were put harms way by our idiot president. They are not at fault. For the most part, they do their job well and in an ethical way. You can support the troops without supporting the way.

[KoKo]

51. This thread didn't start off as a "Patriotic" Post. Pro-War/Anti-War...

it evolved when "hi-jackers" decided to "go at it." But...maybe a good venting was needed. My post was just an observation...If stuff got hashed out with the "Pro/Anti-Iraq Invasion" folks...so be it...We all need some time to vent about what we've seen...:shrug:

[DaveinMD]

59. understood

I just couldn't believe some of the stuff I read here.

[JNelson6563]

55. Isn't there a DLC forum

where you might be more at home?

[DaveinMD]

58. ha

I'm actually a labor Democrat. I've worked for all sorts of AFL-CIO unions. But some of the stuff here is crazy. Running people out of our party an attacking our troops isn't going to win us votes.

[JNelson6563]

62. Your claims are counterintuitive

to your reaction to my post. Never heard of a labor person approving of Pelosi's ass-kissing and I am very close to labor in my neck of the woods.

Then again I recall some labor folks complaining of some of their leadership sporting B/c bumper stickers during lst election so there's just no telling these days.

Dem Minority Leader with a mantra of standing shoulder to shoulder with the trained chimp and labor folks sporting B/C stickers. The world is upside down.

Julie

[Contrary1]

52. As they attach

electrodes to their genitals, and threaten to light them
up like Christmas trees. God rest ye merry gentlemen...

[KoKo]

53. Sad to say...but your point goes right to the heart of it....Pelosi's kids

and Grandkids (as she pointed out..."My Grandchildren"} in her speech verifying that she looks great to be a "Grandma."

But, Pelosi's Grandchildren will be exempt from Iraq...just like classmates of mine ...the ones who "had pull" not to be drafted into Vietnam...

She looks damned good for a Grandma. Eye Lift, Teeth Bleaching, nips and tucks...and her smiles...but still she and her's will be safe...it's the folks from Mike Moore's Movie who will go to Iraq, Iran and Syria. They aren't pretty and some may be opportunists or thugs or whatever...but the rest will be innocent young men and women who couldn't afford Pelosi's jewelry or anything about her.

That's the problem...

[MadHound]

54. Nancy Pelosi, another pious Republocrat

Obfuscating the obvious for her corporate masters since 1987

[ElectroPrincess]

64. Great

Threads like this keep the right wing ecstatic. We'll never work together to HELP the troops return home if we default to demonizing the individual combat soldier, "the military" or our own democratic representatives and not the TOP civilian and military leadership at the PENTAGON.

Pelosi is doing what she has to do. She's not one of the top Democratic fundraisers for nothing. Many of those troops do wish to do good ... rather be building than destroying Iraq.

What a waste IMHO to fight among ourselves.

[MadHound]

65. LOL friend, nice try.

I am not demonizing the individual soldier, however I refuse to speak of the obvious when it is staring me in the face. We won't get the soldiers home if we pretend that all is light and goodness when it obviously isn't. Did you go through the antiwar movement during Vietnam? Doesn't sound like it. Part of what got the troops home was pointing out the atrocities our troops were committing in our name, or have you forgotten Kerry's testimony before Congress?

And the fact that Pelosi is a top Democratic fundraise makes me even that much more distrustful of her. Who has she sold her soul out to for that fine lucre? Which corporations pull her strings?

Sorry friend, nice try. I do support the troops, I want them home ASAP, and I will work towards achieving that goal by any means neccessary. If that means pointing out the atrocities to the public, so be it. We won't accomplish a damn thing by sweeping the truth under the rug now will we. After all, isn't that how we got into this war? Sweeping the truth under the rug so that no one would see it until it was too late?

[ElectroPrincess]

66. I have more background than you know ...

I wasn't part of the anti war movement as I was only a pre-teen when it ended. However, I do remember sending packages to my older brother in the 101st Airborne and feeling helpless and sad when we were informed that he was severely wounded by shrapnel.

If your intent is to act self righteous, you're doing a fine job. I'm certainly no exception: We all get that way and I don't even pretend that I'm immune to intense disappointment with some troop's behavior.

Nope, although I'm an Army Veteran, presently I've turned to pacifism in the support of "Pax Christi" and "Veterans for Peace."

I want to be your friend ... that's why IMHO it serves no useful purpose to hyperfocuse - RIGHT NOW - on "venting moral outrage" toward individual atrocities. Again, IMO we need to unite with organizations like "Operation Truth" and "Bring Them Home Now" in order to really make a dent in this present anti-war movement.

[MadHound]

67. So if not now, when?

It has been commented on that it wasn't until the late sixties, early seventies when the horror stories started coming home that the average Joe finally woke up and wondered what the fuck was going on in 'Nam? It took the truth, as told by members of the VVAW, Ron Kovic, and other who had been over there and seen the devastation we had wrought before the American people woke from their slumber and started demanding that we get out. Gee, wouldn't have been nice if the American populace had been shaken awake before you brother was injured, or my cousin killed, and the many other horrible tragedies that occured on both sides of that senseless conflict.

So, you want to wait out of some sense of misplaced decorum? Out of the need to "support the troops"? The best way to support the troops friend is to bring them home now! It isn't your brother who is getting hurt in this madness, it is somebody else's though. And do we want to try and explain to some poor soul five years from now why we didn't agitate more now to bring the troops home before their brother is killed? Sorry friend, I don't by it, and neither do most people that I know who are working in the anti-war movement, including members of Vetrans for Peace.

I'm sorry if I've come across as self-righteous, it is more that I'm outraged at what is going on under this misadministration. It isn't personal, and we can have differences while working towards the same objective. My objective is to get the troops home, and part of that effort is telling the truth of what is happening on the ground, both the good and the bad. We tried practicing censorship back in the sixties, and all that did was prolong the war needlessly. Doing the same now, no matter what the reason, only offers cover to this misadministration, and prolongs the time before the troops come home.

[Disturbed]

69. Brutal Killers and torturers

War and Occupation are turning some of our troops into monsters. The longer they are in the kill zone the more will turn. The situation of an illegal invasion and occupation will evenually eat away at the marrow Amerik's bones.

[ElectroPrincess]

70. It has nothing to do with decorum ...

It has to do with empathy with the poor damn souls (the thoughtful troops) that are in a horrible situation. All this moral outrage is more self-serving than useful. Yes, by all means, bring out the atrocities, but at the same time, please ensure that you don't alienate the active duty or reserve troops who are in a Catch 22.

[MadHound]

72. More self serving than useful?

Have you been paying attention? How is bringing out the horrors of Abu Graib self serving? How is bring out the atrocities our troops commit IN OUR NAME, WITH OUR MONEY, such as the one young man who shot a severly wounded Iraqi self serving? How is bringing the atrocities in Gitmo to light self serving?

I'm not trying to alienate our troops friend, and I am working towards bringing them home ASAP. And yes, I have sympathy for the position they are in. But I also have sympathy for the people of Iraq, tens of thousands of innocents killed, those hundreds of thousands of innocents wounded, and the entire population who had an illegal immoral war thrust upon them through no choice of their own. At least the US troops had a choice in the matter of whether or not to join the armed services, the Iraqi people had absolutely no choice in being invaded and killed for no good reason.

I'm not one of those who spit on troops, call them babykillers, etc. In fact I think that the way our returning troops are being treated by their own government is an atrocity in and of itself. The fact that they aren't getting the care they need, that there are already homeless Iraq War vetrans showing up at shelters is one more crime to lay at the feet of of this misadministration. But to do as you ask, to do as Pelosi is doing, whitewashing the truth for the sake of the public or troop morale is NOT the way to end this war, nor does it serve any purpose other than prolonging this war, and playing into the hands of the Bushco plan. You want to support the troops friend, then let us bring them home ASAP. To bring them home ASAP, then the truth of what is going on in Iraq, the complete truth, needs to be brought to the full attention of the American public. It was by keeping us in the dark, by whitewashing the truth that we got into this illegal, immoral war. Keeping the American public in the dark, by whitewashing the truth will not get us out of it. Only the truth, raw and unvarnished will stir the American people to the point where they will take action and bring our troops home. And that my friend is how you can truly support the troops, by bringing them home ASAP.

[ElectroPrincess]

79. I rest my case ; )

Yes, all abuses of human rights, most especially torture is horrendous. For us Liberal Catholics, these mortal sins cry up to God for his intervention.

HOWEVER, you go on and on and on. WHAT IF YOU, yes you were an infantryman or woman MP in Iraq. How would YOU handle the stress? Do you know yourself so well ... through and through that you would not do ANYTHING that would be considered a war crime.

Does acting self righteous (oh I would NEVER do that!) help solve the problem and help the low level leaders (LT and Capts) who would be shunned, if NOT fragged for charging their troops who commit these atrocities?

I've had combat relative serve in the US Army back to the Civil War and I'll tell you this for a fact: The whole damn scenario involving war and combat is a scourge on humanity. Many if not MOST of the troops over there do NOT want to harm civilians, some don't even want to kill deep within their hearts, but in order to survive they must follow orders.

In Italy, during WWII my Father dropped down to his knees and cried when he gazed upon the young (no older than 17) German soldiers he killed within a fortified machine gun nest. "You never did anything to me!" My father earned and maintained a battlefield commission for his bravery. However, in his advancing years, he showed great remorse for ALL the killing that occurs during wartime.

You are "screwing with" my point. I'm not saying that we should NOT report war crimes, only that in such an ungodly scenario, they are the norm. Even the soldier with the utmost moral standing will eventually (by mistaken identity) kill innocents.

Yes, do what you have to do but don't judge yourself BETTER than the average infantry soldier because you have no idea how you would adjust to an extended tour in a combat zone. Some of these troops have "checked out" mentally, and are acting like animals because that's wink winked by the * Administration.

"If you can't produce a picture of it OR you don't have a dead Iraqi, then NO WAR CRIME was committed.... - * Administrations Top down policy.

By the way, I'm not referring to YOU specifically, but more toward others who feel that they would adjust to such a crisis without doing "something" that they would later regret and haunt them.

Thank you for trying to understand my point. Your logic makes sense to me.

[KoKo]

73. Pelosi being one of the top Democratic fundraisers may be the problem..

When house leaders are chosen because they are "top fundraisers" and not
because they can work well with the party to formulate and fight for the party agenda they fail. Tom DeLay is certainly a top fundraiser but he combines that with the skills to push the Right Wing Repug agenda and hold his Repugs together in voting.

Pelosi has failed at pulling together a coalition that will block the Repugs in the definitive way that's needed to fight against a "block" voting group of Repugs. She, like Daschle, Reid and Gephardt before her, prefer to "negotiate" and "trade" and in the end they weaken our party. Her skills at appearing before the media are certainly in doubt with this viewer. Every time I see her, she seems to perform like what I said in this post. She may be a wonderful person, personally, but is not in the right job to use her skills, imho.

[Sideways]

71. Pelosi Is Opus Dei She And Her Ilk Are Dominionists

She is a rep for the Bay Area they knew they could NEVER get a Puke dominionist in that region so they got a Democratic one. End of Story. She is not with us and never has been.

[Cocoa]

78. comforting the troops' families

No problem with making the families, and the troops themselves, feel like their sacrifice has some meaning. Like she said, regardless of politics.

Shifting the accountability away from the troops is not only smart politically, but it's also true.

[Nordic]

81. We should all send Pelosi pictures from Fallujah

like these:

http://dahrjamailiraq.com/gallery/view_album.php?set_albumName=album28

warning: extremely disgusting

[Nordic]

82. here's what I wrote Pelosi.

I urge you to do the same. Go to http://www.congress.org



Dear Nancy:

I'm so glad you think our troops are expressing "good will toward men" in Iraq.

In the bible, I know "good will" is described as shooting people in their beds, especially old men and children and women, then letting their bodies rot to be eaten by dogs.

I am proud of my troops for carrying out what can only be described as war crimes and genocide in Fallujah.

I am proud to pay my taxes to support such actions as well.

I'm so glad we have people in Congress like you who have their heads so far up their asses that they can overlook such crimes committed by their country, and not only do NOTHING about it, but also PRAISE the criminals who are ordering our troops to do such vile acts.

If you think what I'm saying is hyperbole, I urge you to look at the following website.

It contains photographs of what we did in Fallujah. Yes, that's "we", as in the US of A, the taxpayers of this government.

Please check it out. Perhaps print one of the photos out and put it on your Christmas Card this year! As an examplle of the "good will towards men" that our troops are doing in Iraq.

http://dahrjamailiraq.com/gallery/view_album.php?set_albumName=album28

Thank you for enabling this. I dearly thank you.

[Zhade]

83. More like Good Will Hunting.

Hey, it's that time of year to be festive, and nothing says "festive" like the innards of an innocent Iraqi child sprayed over the block thanks to a "smart bomb" dropped from 10,000 feet!