Want some fresh, new ammo when dealing with the religious right?

[Bouncy Ball]

How about this?

The tenth commandment is a commandment against coveting for or wishing for that which you don't have or that which isn't yours.

Ask them when the last time was they wanted something, and bought it. Or when they wanted something they really didn't need. Or when they wanted a particular outfit or car or DVD a friend or coworker has.

Then tell them our entire economic system of capitalism DEPENDS on covetousness.

It is. You HAVE to want that plasma screen TV your neighbor just got. You HAVE to want that new dress. You HAVE to want a bigger, more luxurious home. You HAVE to want that Hummer 2.

Yep. The entire system. Completely dependent on violating one of the commandments over and over and over again. Advertising is ALL about getting you to covet that which is not yours. And making it yours.

Ask them why, if they are so righteous and holy, do they live in and support an economic system that only survives through the violation of one of the ten commandments.

They may have previously considered it a minor commandment (most do), but when they realize our economic system DEPENDS upon the violation of that commandment, it will give them food for thought.

And it's probably something they haven't heard before.

(If you are feeling particularly devious you can throw in the question of how much they worship their TV or computer....)

I know this will NOT work on evangelistic hard-cores. I'm not talking about them. I honestly am not sure much would work on them beyond God Himself coming down and smoting them. Smiting? But for others, especially those particularly puffed up with a sense of self-righteousness, it's fun. Ask them why they care so much about some parts of the Bible but not all of it.

[justinsb]

1. I think that's one of the big differences between

Canada and the US, in Canada we still buy stuff, but if your neighbor has a big luxurious home and a big screen plasma TV you just hang out at their house alot and bring some of the beer you bought with the money you saved by not buying a bigger home and a plasma TV.

[canadianbeaver]

5. Thats funny..........too true eh?.........n/t

[Bouncy Ball]

6. Hee hee.

[Demit]

8. now THAT'S how to live in harmony :)

[justinsb]

10. Part II

Just an afterthought - it's not that Canadians are cheep, or value beer above all else (it would probably be in the top 5 but...) If you look at a big screen TV here it costs what 3-4 thousand dollars? That's new bikes for the kids, a sizeable donation to charity, alot of dinners with family an friends, alot of nights at the pub with the neighbors, maybe even a vacation - now which say 10 years from now are you going to look back at most fondly?

[RUDUing2]

2. better idea:

tell them this

A Radical Question
A touching inquiry by one with heartfelt concerns about eternal life ends in tragedy-the Kingdom is lost because the young man loved materialism.

Falling on his knees before Jesus, this young, rich, Jewish ruler asked what he must do to inherit eternal life. First, Jesus told him to keep the six commandments about loving his neighbor (Exodus 20:12-16). He replied that he'd kept these commandments since his youth, indicating that his focus was on the external keeping of God's law.

Jesus responded with compassion for one who had spent his whole life focused on the wrong priority. The young man had kept the external requirements of the law, yet sensed that was not enough to gain eternal life.

But when Jesus changed the topic from external proficiencies to internal priorities-from the keeping of rules to the sacrificing of wealth-the young ruler's face fell. This was the weak link in the chain that would anchor the young man to heaven's gate.

Jesus' Radical Answer
Jesus knocked the young ruler's rule-keeping foundation right out from under him with the next requirement for eternal life. One thing you lack: Go your way, sell whatever you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, take up the cross, and follow Me (Mark 10:21). http://www.christianpost.com/php_functions/print_friendly.php?tbl_name=ministries&id=233

[Bouncy Ball]

7. I read the link, that's a good one.

Indeed, a Christian who insists on telling you all about their "morals" and "values" and trumpeting their Christianity should be ask why they own many possessions at ALL.

[progressiveBadger]

3. Won't phase them

Every christian I know picks and chooses what they follow from the bible. I'm not saying that is a bad thing. What is bad is when the person picks and chooses to suit THEIR needs instead of the needs of humanity, which, I think, was Jesus' message.

[Bouncy Ball]

4. Then say THAT.

Because I totally agree with that, too.

I posted this here because it's something that occurred to me today and it's not anything I've heard said before with regard to the religious right and how they pick and choose. It exposes yet another hypocrisy and MIGHT get one or two of them thinking.

If nothing else, it'll annoy them and who doesn't enjoy that?

:evilgrin:

[progressiveBadger]

25. I didn't mean to imply that I disagreed with you

Just the opposite. I'm always looking for more examples of religious hypocrisy. Like you say, it is fun to annoy! :) It's also nice to bring them off their "holier than thou" perch they so frequently sit on.

[Cats Against Frist]

26. I totally agree

They won't bat an eyelash. Remember, Robertson, Falwell and the jokesters have convinced them that God rewards the faithful with riches -- which also means material goods, like McMansions in a treeless cul-de-sac, giant cars, GAP clothes and flat-screen televisions.

They don't give, pardon my french, a holy fuck about what the ten commandments say.

[Bouncy Ball]

35. But they love

to trot out the Ten Commandments and other Old Testament nuggets when it benefits them.

They also love to ignore Jesus' teachings. Which makes me wonder just how Christian they can possibly be, given all that.

It's just yet another hypocrisy to be able to point out. See also what Jesus said about giving away your possessions and how hard it is for the rich to enter heaven.

They conveniently ignore all that, I agree.

[mondohondo]

39. Fundie Economics

I used to work for a guy who was a fundamentalist. He kept harping on me that I should join his church and contribute 10% of my (meager)income to the collection plate. His claim was that I would get it all back and then some; "shaken up and overflowing into my lap". I remember he called it "God's 401(k) plan". This guy also thought Amway was the greatest thing since sliced bread. I quit shortly thereafter.

[Why Syzygy]

9. Another

"Is it all about swimming pools and SUVs?"

Jesus rocks, eh?

[LostInAnomie]

11. I was thinking the same thing the other day...

... It is amazing that the philosophy of capitalism is the polar opposite of christianity, but the "christians" flock to it. Communism on the on the other hand almost goes hand in hand with the christian philosophy (except for the atheism part) but the christians run from it like the plague.

[Bouncy Ball]

13. And actually

communism, being an economic system, really has nothing to do with atheism.

"A theoretical economic system characterized by the collective ownership of property and by the organization of labor for the common advantage of all members."

[LostInAnomie]

16. Yeah, it would be easy to imagine...

... a christian-communist nation. They would just have to ignore the whole "opium of the masses" thing, but they are already good at ignoring parts of things they don't like.

[crasmane]

32. That's what Christian Socialism is all about

nt

[Harlan James]

12. Just tell them you 'home church'

They hate that.

[Bouncy Ball]

14. Oh my gosh

I am really going to have to remember that one! ROFL! Especially for my Christian neighbors who look down their noses at us because we don't go to church, but do consider ourselves to be Christian.

We home church, I love it.

[LoZoccolo]

15. This won't work on anybody.

Because it's so obviously twisted out of context.

What it will convince them of is that you'll say anything to try to change their mind.

[Bouncy Ball]

17. How is it twisted out of context?

Do you think capitalism DOESN'T depend on coveting? It most certainly does.

And who said anything about changing minds? I'd be happy if they THOUGHT, period. Shoot several holes in that worldview that's so twisted.

[LoZoccolo]

21. Come on.

There's a bit of nuance in the notion of covetousness. It's not simply "wanting something".

You're not gonna do this anyways, so I guess I'm not worried.

[LostInAnomie]

23. Yeah, it is wanting something very much...

... If they are too stupid to draw the connection on their own it doesn't say much about them.

[LoZoccolo]

28. "Yeah, it is wanting something very much..."

You make my argument for me. Thanks.

[Bouncy Ball]

24. How do you know

whether I will or won't? LOL!

Why would you be worried? Do you worry about everything every Dem says to every rightwinger or fundie? Again, I have to laugh at that.

No there's not much nuance, and remember they aren't gray area people, anyway. Wanting is wanting. Period. And it's the basis of capitalism.

No wanting = no buying.

[LoZoccolo]

27. The reason I know you won't tell anyone is...

...you act like you don't know any.

[Bouncy Ball]

29. Oh I know them.

I live in a very red state. They are all around me!

I probably worded it the way I did because I haven't been talking to them lately. Ahem.

But I wanted to post it here as food for thought for others. Problem?

[LoZoccolo]

30. Yes, I do have a problem.

1. It's stupid.
2. It won't work.
3. It confirms their idea we just want to make fun of them.
4. It gets people like Bush* elected.

That's my problem.

[Bouncy Ball]

31. BWA!

As IF I had that much power.

HOW is it stupid? I've already told you they think in black and white and they know covetousness is wanting and wanting IS the basis for capitalism.

So in partaking of our economic system they are violating, on a regular basis, one of the ten commandments.

By getting that train of thought going (and by the way, it's not one usually addressed--it gets away from guns, gays, abortions, etc) it opens the door to other hypocrisies embraced by the religious right.

How is a criticism making fun of someone? I wouldn't stand there and say "HA HA! YOU COVET! YOU'RE A SINNER, that's funny!" I'm POINTING it out. And it's true.

The point is that if you are going to go around beating people on the head with your "morals" as a Christian, I am going to point out where you are a big ol' hypocrite.

That's not making fun of anyone, it's making a POINT.

It gets bush elected, that's funny. Well that means we all might as well just duct tape our mouths shut and not say shit, ever. That'll work pretty well. :eyes: Because God knows they NEVER make fun of us. They never say things that are stupid. And hey, somehow their guy gets elected anyway! So how does it work for them and not for us?

What are your grand ideas?

[LoZoccolo]

33. Little by little, we do.

You make my argument for me - you wouldn't even suggest doing this if it didn't have some sort of effect (unless this is your inadvertant admission that it's all just a joke).

HOW is it stupid? I've already told you they think in black and white and they know covetousness is wanting and wanting IS the basis for capitalism.

And I've already told you this is shit.

And an prima facie example of your own black-and-white thinking.

By getting that train of thought going (and by the way, it's not one usually addressed--it gets away from guns, gays, abortions, etc) it opens the door to other hypocrisies embraced by the religious right.

Not if they realize that it's not hypocritical (and they will). Now there are things they might respond to along the hypocrisy line, if they don't feel you're still wasting their time after you tell them this one, and show a more respect for the principle you feel they're acting hypocritical about.

What are your grand ideas?

Grand idea #1 is not to give the next Republican that runs a 55% mandate by scooting the 21% of white evangelical Christians that voted for Kerry in this election over to their column by means of vapid and masturbatory assclownery. I'm still working on grand idea #2.

[Bouncy Ball]

34. Telling me something "is shit"

does nothing to explain why, which you never did.

Now HOW is it NOT hypocritical of them to claim they are so moral and such great Christians when they routinely violate one of the ten commandments as part of taking part in the economic structure of their country?

Explain that to me. While you're at it, you could get at what's really bugging you, because I don't think you've mentioned it yet.

"...by scooting the 21% of white evangelical Christians that voted for Kerry in this election over to their column by means of vapid and masturbatory assclownery..."

What in the WORLD makes you think I would say all this to a Kerry voter? Why in the world would I say any of this to someone smart enough to vote for Kerry?

You are WAY off base here. Please answer my first question in this post, which is how it is NOT hypocritical.

Coveting = wanting things (I am a Christian myself, I know it is defined this way and I don't know any Christians who would disagree with that definition). Without wanting things, advertising and thus capitalism dies. We HAVE to covet to have capitalism succeed.

Now whether they CARE about coveting or not depends on the person. But it certainly is something to think about, given that our economic system depends on it. And Jesus taught his followers to give away all their worldly possessions.

I don't know if you are imagining people just walking up to the religious right (did you not notice I said religious "RIGHT" in my original post? Not Christians who voted for Kerry!) and saying these things. I said it was AMMO. In other words, something to use when they go about puffed up with self-righteousness.

I'm not going to sit there and not point out that they conveniently ignore everything in the Bible about materialism and most of the Beautitudes.

[LoZoccolo]

36. Because it's a more complex issue than that (and you know it).

Just wanting something would almost certainly not be considered covetousness by anyone you'd talk to. It's like confusing enjoying food with gluttony.

Tell you what - at least start the conversation out talking about what they think covetousness is. If you start off talking about how you think they think one way, and they don't think that way, you will in almost no time lose all credibility with them. Because they are the first to know you are wrong in that situation.

[Bouncy Ball]

38. Dear God

please give me more credit than this. The assumptions you make here, really.

You assume that I would just JUMP in with this. Talk about not finding out how someone thinks before saying something....you just did the same thing you warned me not to.

I'm actually quite skilled in conversation, thank you. I have to be, for what I do.

And coveting IS wanting what you DON'T HAVE. Yeah, it's a pretty damn strict law and VERY hard to follow, but there it is. I didn't write it. Of course I wouldn't just jump to the main point I posted in this thread if I were talking about it with a religious right person. I also made an assumption--that people on DU would understand that I was posting the meat of the point. Sorry I didn't engage in describing all the verbal steps leading to it. Thought that might get quite boring for DUers to read.

[LostInAnomie]

37. You honestly can't see that capitalism is based on coveting property?

Do people buy Hummers, and Plasma TV's because they have a need for them? No, they buy them because they have a keeping up with the Jones's mentality that consumerism embraces. Even if they can somehow sidestep the hypocrisy of the 10th commandment and the life they live they couldn't sidestep the rejection of material wealth that Jesus teaches.

[LostInAnomie]

22. Jinx!

[LostInAnomie]

20. How is it twisted out of context?

Jesus's teachings are full of the rejection of material wealth, and the tenth commandment tells them not to covet possessions. A love of wealth is the basis of capitalism and consumerism.

[SHRED]

18. Also ask them...

if they shop at Wal-Mart.
Wal-Mart is the biggest importer of Chinese goods and China has forced abortion as a government policy.

[Bouncy Ball]

19. I've read that before

and that's a great point. MOST of the rightwinger fundies I know do shop at wal-mart.

[Poppyseedman]

40. I think you are a bit confused.

"Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbor's."

The first five commandments are about your relationship to God, the next five are about your relationship with your fellow man.

The tenth commandment is about not messing with your neighbor property.

Capitalism is the simple relationship between those who produce goods and services and those who buy them.

Main Entry: cap·i·tal·ism
Pronunciation: 'ka-p&-t&l-"iz-&m, 'kap-t&l-, British also k&-'pi-t&l-
Function: noun
: an economic system characterized by private or corporate ownership of capital goods, by investments that are determined by private decision, and by prices, production, and the distribution of goods that are determined mainly by competition in a free market

The vast majority of "capitalism" in the country is people trying to survive, not coveting their fellow man goods.

I agree that people are generally covetousness, but to say they are breaking the tenth commandment by utilizing the principles of capitalism is like telling a man he should buy only day old white bread because it is $.50 cheaper than the fresh wheat bread.

The fact that he can buy fresh wheat bread is because someone thought he could sell it for $.50 more. That's capitalism

Does capitalsim get out of control? Sure it does when the market forces are unfairly applied though political or business practices.

[MissB]

41. I think you widely missed the point

You are suggesting that the target audience would be able to pick apart the argument suggested by the OP. That would assume that they are rational enough to understand everything you posted.

If they're listening to Falwell and Faux, then one needn't be too concerned about the accurate application of the ten commandments.

Welcome to DU! Enjoy your stay.

[Poppyseedman]

42. Your welcome

"If they're listening to Falwell and Faux, then one needn't be too concerned about the accurate application of the ten commandments."

One thing I have learned, is that most of the so called religious right, won't know an open bible if it hit them in the head.

Most are sincere people, but pretty clueless when it comes to understanding for themselves biblical principles.

If the preacher says it, it must be true.

[leesa]

43. You mean like Iraq's oil? Or, Afghanistan's poppy fields and

pipeline right-of-way?

[Sparkly]

44. It seems like they have convenient excuses for everything.

They'll pick out parts of the old testament to support one thing they want to believe, then cast out another saying everything changed later and God took that part out, or something.

They seem to have an excuse for why they don't want to help the poor, why they don't sell their belongings or at least stop idolizing people who hoard wealth, why they worship false idols and objects, why they judge other people, why they make war rather than peace, etc... So they must have SOME rationale for being greedy, too. (In fact, there's one televangelist who does nothing but persuade people toward a holy investment scheme, implying that if they send in $100 God will bless them with thousands.)

I don't know what the rationale is, but I suspect they have this one covered, too.

[Liberty Belle]

45. How about honoring thy father and mother?

Ask them if they think it's okay to bankrupt Social Security and leave the old folks with nothing.