Don't Give Up On The Democratic Party - CLEAN IT UP

[Q]

While the GOP is completely gone...there is still a chance that the Dem party could be saved.

The majority of politicians in the GOP have been corrupted by power and money. (Or have been silenced by it.) From Bush* to Cheney to DeLay to McCain...they have demonstrated a desire to serve themselves before the people.

Although they don't have much power or voice within the party...there are still many Dems that haven't been corrupted and try their best to serve the people. It's these Democrats that we must support with our money and time. Although no human being or politician is perfect...the Democratic party still has great public servants that haven't given up on the party or the ideal of democracy.

How can we recognize which politicians to support? It's easy. Steer away from politicians who support illegal wars (and won't retract their support after knowing all the facts)...tax cuts that favor the rich and corporate over social welfare. Beware the 'trickle-down' economics, corporate-backed politician whether he comes from the left or right.

The litmus test for a good Democratic leader is not whether they're moderate or progressive or liberal...but if they support and defend the values and principles that have made the party great and distinguishable from the GOP.

Our very first action should be to pledge non-support of DLC-vetted candidates. Like the Neocons in the GOP...they are the corrupting influence that presumes to have a 'mandate' and the right to determine the agenda and direction of the party.

Although it may take a couple election cycles before they 'get it'...Democrats should stop voting against their own interests and simply refuse to support any candidate that can't meet a minimum standard of Democratic principles. Keeping in mind that principles aren't negotiable...these minimum standards should include ethics, honesty and integrity.

[Skidmore]

1. How can we know who has been vetted by the DLC?

[Q]

2. You can tell they've been 'vetted' by the DLC...

...because they will publicly support a candidate who subscribes to their policies and agenda. You can tell those they don't support because they will TRASH them and call them liberals, out of touch or 'crazy'.

The best defense is to know what they're all about and their position on the issues. But beware: like the Neocons...they mask their true intentions in flowery phrases. Start with studying their website: http://www.ndol.org/

Remember that the DLC is no more an 'official' part of the Democratic party than the Neocons are part of the GOP. They work behind the scenes to influence Democratic policy and will ONLY support candidates who pass their corporate/war friendly litmus test.

[Q]

5. And we must stop supporting those who help the Bushies...

...advance their agenda.

For instance...we shouldn't be supporting Reid because he is okay with Scalia as chief justice. Scalia is one of the chief architects of the 'illegal' decision that stopped the 2000 recount and literally 'gave' the WH to his friend Bush*. Reid MUST know this...yet his public support of this unethical justice is...well...unethical.

If we continue to support unethical and corrupt politicians...our system of government will continue to be unethical and corrupt. There should be no shades of gray when it comes to honesty and integrity.

[Pepperbelly]

3. I am for populism ...

There are vast numbers of "working poor" across America. I am one. And these people know they are getting fucked. They know the whole "nickled and dimed" thing, getting nickled and dimed deeper into the hole.

These are the sorts of people that worshipped FDR. And look what is happening. If things continue like it is, the middle class will basically disappear. Already, manufacturing, a main-stay for clawing one's way out of poverty, is disappearing from our country. For a great many people, economic hope is merely a tiny speck of light at the end of the tunnel. Things continue to deteriorate.

Yet, for those at the top of the heap, life gets better. There are war profiteers who are fatening themselves on our blood. Ticks who will engorge on the body politic until they burst rather than stopping.

The field needs to be leveled all over again. I am not sure how but I see the need clearly.

[Q]

7. Wonderful insight...

...and you're right when you say that life is getting so much better for those at the top of the heap. The middle class is nearly gone and the poor might as well not exist. And history shows this is always the eventuality of a banana republic...disguised as a democracy. War profiteering USED TO BE a crime.

There is no magic formula. All we have left now is our voice and our vote. It will be a very painful exercise...but we must stop supporting politicians that are part of the problem. We must go on the offense and make it clear that we will no longer vote against our own interests and principles.

We CAN turn things around and take our party back and give it to the people. It will mean telling politicians in no uncertain terms that we are willing to 'lose' rather than continue to support a corporate/church/state. But I don't think we WILL lose if we make it clear that our party will no longer be part of the problem...but part of the solution.

[The Backlash Cometh]

4. Right. There are two kinds of Dems that need to go:

(1) DINOs and
(2) Dems in leadership roles in the local arena which have already shown their penchant for corruption. If they're giving the Dem's image a black eye because they've already shown that they've made bad public decisions for personal reasons, GET RID OF THEM!

[Q]

10. Just a couple decades ago...

...it would have meant the end of a politician's career if he were perceived as being on the 'take' from corporate lobbyists. Now they actually brag about it as they collect hundreds of millions of dollars and write laws and legislation to favor those with fistfuls of cash for their campaigns.

This must stop. It just might take public financing of campaigns, a return of the fairness doctrine and free 'public interest' time on every network.

[The Backlash Cometh]

19. The crux of the problem is that you have a group of white males

who think it's funny to cheat. They get away with so much because their buddies from the Rotary Club are on the city commission, and rules for them are different than ordinary citizens. They have access, and they know how to use it. But generally it's to the disadvantage of the public.

And even when members of the public find out about it, they can't find anyone to help. Because the government, when having to decide between protecting government officials or the public, will protect government officials.

[Q]

21. We have to bring ourselves to finally admit...

...that part of the reason they 'get away with it' is because our party doesn't call them on it or demand that the rule of law be applied. It has been said that we can't do anything because we're in the minority. But at the very least we could go on the record as opposing fraud and corruption. This in and of itself would bring millions of disgruntled Americans to our side.

[The Backlash Cometh]

25. The Dems know who their corrupted officials are within their party.

They just don't have the will to clean house.

[Dr.Phool]

6. Get the broom out!!!

[many a good man]

8. Watch C-SPAN

long enough and you'll see there are LOTS of Dems out there fighting the good fight. You are right on, Q! We HAVE to give them all letters of support and encouragement. In a democracy we have to lead our leaders. They need our support to justify going out on a limb.

Note: There are Republicans who can be cool on a bunch of issues we care about. We should acknowledge them when they vote our way...it doesn't mean we have to vote for them in November.

[Q]

12. There are still a few good conservatives left...

...but like their counterparts in the Democratic party...they've been stripped of all power within the party. The Neocons and Neodems have assumed control of both parties. This has brought the parties closer together on issues counterproductive to democracy and the 'social contract'.

As stated above...we must stop supporting Democrats that can't at least meet a set of minimum standards.

[Nimrod]

9. Not sure it can be cleaned

Garbage in, garbage out.

I have completely lost any faith I ever had (which admittedly wasn't much to begin with) with our system in general. I respect and admire those RARE individuals who are willing to buck the system and try to accomplish something besides a nice big profit margin. But on the whole our entire societal, corporate, and governmental system is fucked beyond all hope of repair.

And you WOULD have to repair all of these before we have a prayer. They are inextricably linked now. The ruling class controls the corporations, the corporations control the money, the money controls the government, and the people are at the mercy of all of the above.

It's a self-feeding sewage system. It's a snake swallowing it's own tail and it's about up to the neck now. It would take a massive paradigm shift to make any real changes.

It's all too far gone now, it needs to just be put down like a sick dog.

</The voice of nihilism>

[Q]

11. But...if we can control the 'garbage in'...

...then we have a much better chance of repairing the system.

Ignore those who say we can't 'win' unless we support a candidate with lots of corporate money and backing. Ignore those who say that we must compromise with those not interested in compromise. Ignore those who say that we must vote for anyone the party bosses put on the ballot.

If we lose a few more elections...so be it. At least we'll finally know we're doing what's right for the Democratic party and the American people. And who knows? The American people just might like the idea of voting for a party that serves the people instead of themselves and the corporations who sponsor them?

[Nimrod]

16. How can we control the garbage in?

There's a LOT of garbage.

How many "elected" officials come from common ancestry? Not many. Personally, I've devised my own method of election reform that will never in a million years be utilized.

Every candidate who wants to run for any office whatsoever, must spend three months living the life of the average American. All their silver spoons are taken away, they work at McDonalds, they pay their rent and feed their families ONLY on the money from McDonalds, they have bill collectors calling them up and threatening them every night, and they have to do their Christmas shopping at a dollar store. If they get fired, they get to apply for unemployment and sell some bodily fluids to keep from getting kicked out of their shithole apartment. They'll be given old cars in bad shape, and when they break down they have to walk or take the bus to work. If they have to eat peanut butter and top ramen every meal for two months just so their electricity doesn't get turned off, that's the way it is. If their young kids have to spend four or five hours a night home alone, that's the way it is. If they have to work 70 hours a week to get $7.50 an hour insead of $5.15 so they have a prayer of buying their kid a winter coat at the Salvation Army, that's the way it is. Better yet, let them make "assistant manager" so they can be forced to work 20 hours of overtime with no overtime pay for a calculated $3.50 an hour.

Starve 'em. Give them six ulcers. See how many we can turn into alcoholics. Make them avoid picking up the phone in the evening because they don't want to get threatened and insulted by people they owe more money to than they ever have a prayer of getting paid back. Let them work for idiotic assholes who will make their lives hell at every opportunity. Let them get back pain they can't fix from standing on linoleum all day. Let every asshole in the world take out their aggressions on them because they're jockying a register. Let some 19 year old kid bitch them out because they're not selling enough merchandise at Spencer Gifts for their $5.15 an hour. Let them break a tooth and try to survive the pain on generic aspirin because they have no insurance. THEN let them listen to idiots tell them how lucky they are to be American.

Because one fact has to be faced. WE. DO. NOT. EXIST. People like you and me are just whining trying to get a free ride through life. We're a minor annoyance at best. I mean, it's not like they even need us to vote for them anymore. The ruling class has gotten around THAT little snag quite effectively with those nifty little voting machines.

We will continue to not exist. We exist only to throw our money at them, and as soon as we've done that we can safely be non-entities again. It will remain the same as long as only the overpriviledged are allowed to attain office with no concept of how the "rest of us" live our lives every day.

[Q]

34. Truck drivers, bakers, teachers and candlestick makers...

...don't run for office because those in power have INTENTIONALLY made it too expensive. If you're not rich or have rich friends you can forget about running for national office.

This is why they and the American media resist public financing of campaigns. If they got their money from the people they'd be beholden to the people. In the same regard...the American media doesn't want to see campaigns financed by the public because that would place limits on the hundred of millions of dollars they get every four years for campaign ads.

We can't do much right now about how Republicans vote. But we can sure in the hell do something about the way we vote. Many Americans are tired of voting for the lessor of two evils or the least corrupt.

The Democratic party tells us that we either vote for THEM or the Republicans will stay in power. Perhaps we should force their hand and tell them that we won't vote for them unless they publicly denounce the corruption and discontinue their enabling and complicity with the RWingers? They can keep losing for all we care. Their idea of 'winning' is not what we want.

[Nimrod]

48. You bring up a great point

In order to fight the machine as it were, we need to stop giving them any money. None. Zero.

Think about how much money was poured into this last sick debacle of a campaign season. Where did it go? What was done with all those piles of money we threw at them in a desperate attempt to find some hope? There is no record. You think these rich elites would let us check their accounting records to see where our money went? Not likely. They're taking our money and running.

Yeah, I'm sure some of it went to renting locations, paying fees, and advertising. But it doesn't cost 50 dollars to create a yard sign - I can do one with a couple pieces of wood and a cheapass computer printer for about 20 cents. Looks just like the official one.

I can tell you where I think the vast majority of that money went. Luxury hotels, room service, expensive cars, private jets, possibly prostitutes for all the staff, and the revolting amount of money the crew gets paid for doing absolutely nothing. These assholes take our money and run. That's why campaign seasons are getting longer and longer - it's more free money for the ruling class to party with, and all they have to do is spend an hour a week feeding us whatever pap they think we want to hear.

So fuck 'em. Don't give them a red cent ever again. Tell them we want an exact accounting to be made available of where our money goes before they see another dime come out of our pockets. Let them pay for their presidential suites, 500 dollar meals, and limosines out of their OWN pockets, because they've got the money to pay for it themselves already.

They're not poor. These assholes are the elite and they're already rolling in it. They'll PRETEND they're poor - they'll tell you they need ALL this money "to continue the fight against (insert cause here), and the only hope is well-funded antagonism." As long as we play along and send them our rent money to support their lavish lifestyles, nothing will ever change.

[The Flaming Red Head]

13. They want to attract more southern male meth users. (nascar dads)

I don't wave a rebel flag, I don't go to nascar, I'm not in to sports, I don't listen to country, I don't go to church at all, not even at easter or christmas, and I don't hate gay people, and I'm pro choice, I don't fit in.

Oh and I don't own a gun, and I don't hunt, or watch wrestling.

[Q]

14. The party bosses have beguiled us into believing...

..that we must 'go after' this faction or that swing voter or some special subset of the population. But what about going after the American voter?

What the party bosses don't want to tell you is that a majority would vote for honesty and integrity over slogans and sound bites.

I believe that most Americans are longing for a government that serves them in an honest manner and is accountable to the people and rule of law. We can be that party if we refuse to support politicians who allow corruption to grow and prosper through their direct involvement or inaction.

[The Flaming Red Head]

29. Most of those sub groups are mythical focus group subjects

The voter they want to appeal to doesn’t exist in the real world.

[Q]

35. Exactly right...they are mythical...

...but these phantom voters are used as an excuse to push policies otherwise unpopular to the party base.

Thus...important issue like choice, pubic education and gun control are watered down in order to appease this mythical group of voters. In reality the group they're appeasing is the corporations who want to make a killing or groups like the 'religious' right who threaten to withhold their cash and support unless abortion is made illegal.

There are no 'swing voters'. They are ghosts used as a rationale to destroy everything the Left has worked decades to achieve for the people.

[lateo]

15. There is no cleaning that mess up.

I think it is high time people realize that Ralph Nader was right on some things. Cleaning up the Democratic party? How exactly are we going to do that? By winning elections? Laff...

By demanding that our Democratic Congress critters listen to us? Well, I think most of us here for the last 4 years saw how well that worked. The Democrats knees buckled quicker than a $20.00 whore when ever Bush wanted something.

If only Bill Clinton had been afforded such support from the Democrats...sad isn't it? We had a highly popular Democratic president and the Democrats did little to try to stop the Republican smear machine against him.

[Q]

17. I believe we can clean it up...

...in part by learning to distinguish between politicians who make a mistake in judgment (and then apologize and make amends) and those who directly or indirectly continue to support a corrupt government.

For example: we have to rid our party of politicians who ridicule activists and others striving for free and fair elections and an accountable government. We must also take a closer look at politicians reluctant to use checks and balances to keep the executive branch from attaining power not granted them by the Constitution.

They don't have to listen to you. Simply refuse to vote for them and consistently call them on their dishonesty or unethical behavior.

The Democratic response to the GOP Smear Machine was to create one of their own. But their smear machine doesn't go after Republicans. They go after the Democrats who refuse to go along with the status quo.

[lateo]

18. What happens if I don't vote for them?

Well, that makes it possible for a Republican to win. I like this sort of idea because it says...burn the house down and rebuild it. Unfortunately, this may be our only recourse. Do we have insurance on the house?

:)

The idea that we can "clean" the house reminds me of the commecials for the new Sponge Bob movie when Plankton declares "I'M GOING TO TAKE OVER THE WORLD!" Sponge Bob's reply? "Yeah, well...good luck with that."

I agree with you that something needs to be done about our situation and you are correct about the targets of the new movement what ever shape that movement will take. I think we may even agree on how it is going to get done but just by the degrees of it.

[Q]

20. Vote for someone who believes in...

...America and the Democratic party. It's easy to tell if a politician has integrity and votes in the best interest of the people. Just don't support or vote for them and they will eventually be weeded out of the system.

We're 'losing' anyway. Part of the reason we're losing is that the politicians we keep putting back in office refuse to oppose or sometimes actually support policies that are bad for America and the Democratic party.

[IndianaGreen]

24. We should vote for those that believe and fight for our issues

Vote for someone who believes in America and the Democratic party.

I don't know what the hell "believe in America" means. It certainly means something entirely different in Jesusland, but to me it smacks of jingoism. Voting for someone just because he/she has a "D" after their name is what got us into our present predicament in the first place!

We should vote for those that believe and fight for our issues, and that means someone that will oppose this war and fight to bring the troops home now, and someone that will support full equality for gays and lesbians (including marriage equality). And if that someone belongs to a third party, so be it!

[Q]

36. "Believe in America" means...

...in its most basic form: to protect and defend the Constitution. It means equal justice and that no one is above the law. It means a government of, by and for the people. It means a separation of church and state. It means a working Bill of Rights.

No more voting for someone that has a 'D' after their name unless they EARN it.

[IndianaGreen]

41. The Bill of Rights also includes gun rights

Going on a slaughter of Canada geese for the sake of a photo op is not the same as supporting the Second Amendment's right to bear arms. The right to bear is absolute and has little to do with hunting!

I think that some soul searching on gun rights is long overdue in the Democratic Party.

[lateo]

26. I did just that in the last House election.

I volunteered and helped him campaign...he lost.

[Q]

39. He may have lost...

...but so much more was 'won' by sticking to principles. We have to turn this around by insisting that we've rather stick to our principles and lose than be complicit with the corrupt winners.

[janx]

22. From the bottom up. It's not about relying on the top to do anything.

It's about doing it ourselves.

[lateo]

27. Bottom up may not work...

You see...if the national Democratic group doesn't support your run guess what happens? They will shut you out AND they will support someone else running against you.

[IndianaGreen]

28. You just made the case for another political party

You see...if the national Democratic group doesn't support your run guess what happens? They will shut you out AND they will support someone else running against you.

Let's stop throwing good money after bad. This turkey is dead!

[lateo]

30. I couldn't agree more...

They are beyond "cleaning up". Ralph Nader was right all along...

[Q]

37. The Democratic party is the oldest political party in America..

...and I'm very reluctant to give up on it without one more fight. We need to do everything we can to remove the Neocons in our own party before we give up.

[janx]

31. Here:

http://www.democracyforamerica.com


The "national Democratic group" is not the only democratic group around. ;-)

Check it out!

[IndianaGreen]

23. Money and power have corrupted both parties

the Democratic party still has great public servants that haven't given up on the party or the ideal of democracy.

Money and power have corrupted both parties. The only difference between them being that one party caters to the American version of the Taliban while the other is fearful of challenging the rightwing on core values.

Dennis Kucinich was the only elected official running for President that voted against the war in Iraq and PATRIOT and supported marriage equality for gays and lesbians. Who can forget Medea Benjamin being dragged out of the Democratic Convention floor for daring unfurl an antiwar banner.

The liberal base did not give up on the Democratic Party, it was the Democratic Party that gave up on the liberal base. We got the message!

[Q]

32. Many of us have wondered...

...why the DLC was trying to shove liberals and progressives out of the party and help the Right destroy the 'New Deal'. Later we wondered why they were backing the Patriot Acts, trickle-down tax cuts for the rich and the Bush* 'Doctrine' of aggressive wars. Realistically...the answer has to be that they're helping the Right form a one-party government that uses perpetual war and fear to keep the treasury open to them and their supporters.

Now the DLC simply assumes it has the power to permanently change the principles of our party and take it in the same direction as the Neocons. The way they treat anti-war and anti-Bush* Democrats demonstrates that they have every intention of keeping all the players in place.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

33. Don't go to them. Make them come to us. It's third party time.

The Democratic "leadership" have sold their souls to the God of "political expediency". Ethics and principles have taken a back seat to "pragmatic politics" and popularity. Candidates are no longer selected for what they believe in, but how good they look and sound.

After 39 years of nose-holding I'm switching to Green.

[Q]

38. I won't try to talk you out of joining the Greens...

...I've heard this from many Dems lately and it's discouraging.

But just as Bush* isn't the United States of America...the 'New Dems' are not the Democratic party. They represent a very small group of Democrats and most of their followers don't yet seem to understand what they're all about.

Vote Democratic...just don't vote for the candidate they insist on throwing at you. If you can't vote for the nominee...vote for your choice in the primaries. Sooner or later the leadership will get the point.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

40. I'll be voting VERY selectively.

Fortunately I have a good senator in Patty Murray, and a pretty good rep. Both voted against the IWR, and I'll vote for them if it looks close. My other Dem Senator, Cantwell, is going to have to move left.

As for the primaries, we no longer have open primaries, and I'll be registering Green.

As far as I'm concerned the "two party" system...isn't, and the "loyal oppostion" is neither loyal nor an opposition.

[w4rma]

42. Stupid tactic. It only serves to make the DLCers in the Dem Party more

powerful by removing desprately needed funding, support and (even more importantly, TIME) from progresive Dems.

In fact you just wasted my time, in having to stop, think and shoot down your dumb idea of LEAVING the Democratic Party rather than actually doing some work within it to convince people your ideas are right. Going Green is the LAZY way out.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

43. The only way it's going to change is if it's challenged from the left.

The Democratic Party will only move left when it has to appeal to the left for votes. As long as they can count on the votes of the "ABB" (I was one) sentiment, they'll continue to pander to the right with candidates that will sell us out at the drop of a poll.

I've been working within the party for 39 years. The last presidential candidate I voted for without holding my nose was Dukakis. Since then it's been all downhill as the party relies on the "Who else is there for them to vote for" principle of guaranteeing their votes.

Time for a divorce.

[Q]

52. I believe this 'move Left' argument is a mistake...

...in that it gives the DLCers and others a means to decry that the 'liberals' are trying to force an ideological shift in the party. But nothing could be further from the truth. The Dem party has always represented the left side of the political spectrum...not the right or the middle.

BAD VERSUS GOOD GOVERNMENT

This doesn't have to be an issue of left versus right in the Democratic party. We should keep this issue centered around BAD GOVERNMENT and how the DLC's policy positions are good for their corporate sponsors but bad for the people.

We get so mired in these left v right arguments that we tend to forget that the real goal is taking back our government from the most corrupt White House in our history. Part of that process is to make sure that none of OUR representatives are participating in the fraud and corruption. We need to include INACTION and ENABLING as corrupt deeds. That is...it's just as much of a crime to drive a getaway car as it is to rob a bank.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

44. Further. How's your tactic of working within the establishment working?

Clinton, Gore, Kerry? Clinton's "triangulation" of watering down repug policies. Gore's "earth tones". Kerry's IWR vote and goose killing.

The right wing has won the war for the Democratic Party.

[w4rma]

45. "Earth tones"? You repeat those right wing talking points I see.

Wtf does "earth tones" have to do with chosing Nader over Gore (which gave us Bush)? Wtf does "earth tones' have to do with ideology?

If you want to know why Dems aren't doing so well, you should look at your own flippant attitude. "earth tones".

Quit wasting your time on crap that doesn't matter, like "earth tones".

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

46. Don't blame me, it was Gore's handlers who insisted on earth tones.

Not to mention the "alpha male" scenario.

And, in answer to your question, all of it has nothing to do with ideology. Tell it to the DLC and "moderates" who think that appealing to the "middle" by pandering to them is going to win elections.

As for Gore "losing" because of Nader, those votes were available to him. Instead he chose to go after the "middle" (aka rednecks) that weren't.

[w4rma]

47. You really think that attitude will gain votes? The clue phone is calling

you. That BS will turn off even open minded liberals like me. Then again, maybe that's your agenda?

Another thing, I don't trust anyone who uses right-wing talking points about non-issues ("earth tones", "alpha male"). That anti-social/pro-blackmail attitude of yours towards politics is a loser.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

49. "Anti-social/pro-blackmail"...phew!

What rightwing talking points are you talking about? Or are you denying what I said? Did you happen to miss the the goosehunt extravaganza put on by Kerry? Or the discussions by Gore's handlers about "earth tones" and "alpha-males"? Or, are such tactics acceptable to "open minded liberals" (whatever that is) like you?

Why should I be trying to gain votes? I'm not running for anything. I leave that to politicians and others of the criminal class. And, if reference to the pandering of the DLC/DNC turns you off, please inform me why I should give a rip.

[w4rma]

50. Because while you act high and mighty people die partly because of the

attitude you help to spread.

And if you honestly think that the problem with the DLC is "earth tones", "alpha males" and stagecraft, you are very naive.

As to the two terms I used:
anti-social: because you refuse to work *with* anyone and whine and take the ball away with you when everyone doen't do what you tell them to do.
pro-blackmail: because you whine that you'll take the ball and go elsewhere, instead of working with others, if you don't get your way.

[Q]

51. Just a bit off topic here...but the 'goose hunt' and earth tones'...

...were brought up by the corporate media in a negative light in order to harm the candidates. Gore's great crime was to wear a different color suit at various events. That he happened to like 'earth tone' suits was used by the RWing Talking Head Pundits to ridicule him during a campaign in which they felt very threatened. The point is not that Gore wore earth tone suits...but that the other side was petty enough to make it an issue. That you're arguing it here is just as petty. You make it sound as if it were a campaign tactic instead of what the corporate press later called their 'hatred for Gore'.

But all of this nicely points out that the GOP has utterly lost their way. They can't run on their far right, fascist issues...so they distract the opposition and the American people with 'shark attack' stories that mean absolutely nothing. But you'll have noticed that there was no ridicule from the corporate media when Cheney went hunting with his buddy on the SC or Bush* awkwardly clears brush on his 'ranch'.

I'm not sure how you got so far off the thread topic. The issue is NOT about how candidates campaign or their strategies. It's about weeding corrupt or enabling Democrats out of the party so that we can get back to the business of governing of, by and for the people.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

53. The GOP hasn't lost it's way the Dems have.

Do you really believe that Kerry decided to go on a goose hunt in the waning days of the campaign just to bag a goose? Or that Gore's advisors weren't advising him to wear "earth tones" and act like an "alpha male"? To blame the corporate press and rightwingers for their obvious attempts at pandering to the right, deserved every bit of ridicule that it got.

Which "corrupt and enabling" Democrats are you planning on "weeding out" and how do you plan to do it? The very people that you presumably want to "weed out" are in charge of the party. They're the ones deciding the "direction" of the party. You're a helluva lot more likely to be weeded out than they are.

Like it or not, the majority of "the people" decided they wanted a government for war, for corporations, for "defense", for greed. And, not just the ones who voted for Bush, but many who voted for Kerry and Kerry's platform of more war, more tax breaks for corporations, more compromises, more sell-outs.

[Q]

56. The 'goose hunt' was a photo op...something every politician on earth...

...does all the time. It didn't bother me in any way because it had nothing to do with his responsibilities in government.

Cheney's duck hunt with a SC justice about to decide a case concerning Halliburton...on the other hand...was a conflict of interest.

Would you have ever noticed that Gore was wearing 'earth tones' unless the corporate / RWing media pointed it out?

A majority of people didn't 'decide' anything. They were intentionally misinformed and lied to about Bush's* record. Part of the corruption that needs to be weeded out is the corporate media pretending to be free.

Democrats have but two choices: Leave the party or work to reform it. The solution is to identify the corrupt and enabling parties and refuse to accept their BS or vote for them. There are more willing to do this than you might think. The Democrats will be out of power for decades to come if they don't help us weed out the enablers and corruption. It's up to us to see it through.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

57. It was a stupid and facile bit of pandering.

I see it as an indicator of where the party has gone. Not just the Democrats, of course, but the whole structure of what passes as democracy in this country. Our elections have turned into popularity contests lacking only the bikini competition. Instead of running a dignified campaign based on the very real issues, we had a faux cowboy running against faux liberal shooting a goose. It's not just pathetic but corrupt and downright insulting.

Now we have an "opposition" party that doesn't oppose but panders. That ignores it's strengths in favor of trying for popularity. It puts into power, not liberals who would fight, but "moderates" who will compromise away all that the party and people fought for. Why Harry Reid? A pro-lifer who voted for the IWR and the Patriot Act to replace Daschle who was all too eager to back Bush.

Good luck with your reform efforts. But, the last 22 years has led me to believe that your decision to stick with a corrupt party that has abandoned it's principles will come to nothing but frustration.

[Walt Starr]

54. I no longer believe it is possible to "clean it up

They're so dirty you'll never get wrid of it. The DLC is in collusion with the Republicans to instill corporatist fascism.

[KuTava]

55. Donate $ and time to moveon.org

If their in-the-face advertising can't convince people to vote Democrat, what could?