Went to a Democratic Christmas Party last night with all kinds of Dems.

[saracat]

There were moderates and liberals. There were conservatives. They were all united in one thing. We "lost " the election. And while there was probably fraud, we need to move on. They believe pursuing election fraud will"hurt "us. They also believe that all the anger at the Party is really temporary and snicker, "they will come back. They ( angry progressives )have "nowhere else to go"! . The contempt for Move On was almost unanimous. I am absolutely furious at this attitude. Even the most liberal people within the Party aren't remotely interested in election reform and are already concentrating on 2008. No one was even aware of Cliff Arnebeck and the Ohio recount! And these were our most active and top ranking Dems! I am becoming a pariah as the result of wanting to make change. Even the ACLU people said "forget about it". I am very angry and disheartened today!

[KittyWampus]

1. Pursuing Election Fraud Is The Perfect Wedge Issue

We need a Constitutional RIGHT TO VOTE & HAVE VOTE COUNTED... well before we need to ban gay marriage.

[bobweaver]

2. Why are they concentrating on 2008 and not on 2006?

[saracat]

4. There is some talk of that. I want to know why there is NO interest in

what happened in 2004!

[serryjw]

3. We lost 3 election due to ****

What are they going to say when we loss again in 2006 or 2008?

[punpirate]

5. Welcome to national machine politics....

In the past, the notion of Democratic machine politics was limited to big northern cities such as Chicago, Boston and New York. The DNC has become (with the help of a lot of corporate money and the DLC) very machine-like in its politics.

That fosters the attitudes you saw last night (as well as the kind of control exhibited in the most recent national party convention). It's borne of complacency and indifference to the base (that's the DLC influence--to abandon the base in favor of the upper middle class who have the money to invest in PACs and desirable national campaigns, because they seem to think the base can always be counted upon).

Barring an overwhelming media exposure of Republican scandal and corruption in the near term (hey, anything can happen, right?), the Democrats are going to continue to lose national elections for the foreseeable future--probably until ethnic demographics force them to change, or the Republicans bring about an economic catastrophe (a direction in which they are now headed).

What many Democrats haven't yet realized is that the really big money behind the Republicans hasn't just been changing the nature of public discourse in the country and controlling the media--it's also been co-opting the Democrats at every opportunity.

[saracat]

7. I agree 100% . It is just so depressing. BTW, I think the true Daley

machine politics functioned better than this. At least they won! Clinton once said "the definition of doing the same thing over and over gain and expecting a different result was the definition of insanity." I believe the Party has gone "insane". They have lost the last three elections catering to the DLC Repug lite theme , crediting them with the Clinton win. It hasn't occurred to anyone yet that this theory doesn't work without a candidate like Clinton. In this case "it was the candidate, stupid, not centrism! We are never going to win until we take back the party and give people a choice. We don't need another Republican Party!

[KittyWampus]

10. So Was It Fraud Or The Candidate. Here You Are Saying Candidate

but your opening post said fraud.

[saracat]

12. I meant in 1992. Clinton was only candidate who could have pulled off

the centrist theme. And he did. 2000 and 2004 were clearly fraud.

[punpirate]

15. Clinton was quoting...

... or plagiarizing, Einstein. :)

While Clinton is a consummate politician (yes, that man could sell ice to Inuits), he also had favorable economics behind him--going poorly when he was first campaigning and going better in his second campaign, and he knew how to use that to his advantage.

But, one thing for sure--neither a chastened Democratic Party or another third party made up of progressives has a chance in hell of succeeding unless they build the kind of media megaphone that the right wing has developed over the last thirty years. The wealthy on the left ought to be putting their money into a media network that's heavy on investigative journalism. What this country needs is some good, old-fashioned muckraking. Political change would follow. :)

[saracat]

16. Amen. You are absolutely right. We must have media.

I work in media and have been howling about this for eons. You are also right about Clinton (and Einstein!). He certainly knew how to take advantage of a situation. Kerry had good situation as well, but was interfered with, separate of the fraud.And I am all for muckraking! It would be about time!

[Sugarbleus]

6. Gee, what a sad report. I know those type of people..It IS

infuriating! I'm of the camp that says we lost, BUT I'm NOT about business as usual nor am I against the progressive movement. I'm among the VERY ANGRY dems that feel we need a significant change in the party structure.

I'm absolutely in awe of Moveon and Moore for their extreme efforts. Without them, we may not have gotten off the ground at all. Repugs have all the money and clout.......... Moveon/other 527's and Moore were a REAL BOON for us. All of us plus these orgs made HISTORY!

I say keep counting the votes. Make voting a RIGHT. Fix the problems for the future and tell those milquetoast(sp?) Dems to kiss your/our ass! This is one dem who will change parties before I join hands with "centrist Dems" again! *grumbling*..bluenose fucks!

[greenohio]

8. Count the votes by hand, at the precinct, on video , with representatives

present from each candidate. Certify the vote there. Objections and demands for recount are to made there. Only provisional and absentee are counted at the county.

That said, tying reform to a particular election is a loser because one looks politically motivated. The best way to implement reform is separate it from a particular election.

[The Flaming Red Head]

17. This 'particular election' is the end of life as we knew it in the US

They're reversing Roe.

They're introducing faith based initiatives.

We have Torture Gonzales and Patriot 2 at the same time.

They're torturing detainees and laughing about it.

How long before it's our activist and it starts happening here?

I won't even go into the environmental impact.

My college won't teach Evolution in Biology.

AND they cheated to get this particular ELECTION.

Tie it to this election. THIS ONE!!!!!

[Donna Zen]

9. An honest voting system

is not a Democratic issue; it is an American issue. If they fail to understand the importance of a citizen's right to vote then they do not understand democracy.

What has hurt the Democratic party is not standing up for something, it is the speed with which they roll over and beg to be kicked. Little wonder they are perceived as weak; they are.

Thank you for your report as sad as it is.

I guess this means that K-E have no secret plan, unless we count the one they have on how to use the money they got for protecting the vote.

[saracat]

11. I have no idea what if anything K/E have planned or not.

But it wouldn't make a difference to these people. They don't like K/E either. They consider it "their" fault the election was "lost" They were ,allegedly, rotten candidates. I suppose that is easier than taking responsibility for their own negligence. I pointed out that Bush was not exactly the ideal candidate and they seemed to feel Kerry was worse than Bush. No wonder we can't get great candidates! With friends like this ,who needs enemies?

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

13. Everything you habve said is why...

Major housecleaning is overdue at the DNC.

[angrydemocrat]

24. I agree

I made a comment sometime back about how alot of the other democrats were giving Kerry the cold shoulder. But hell I got flamed for saying it. But I have noticed this long before you brought it up. Hell none of them are willing to back him on anything he goes to do. Some even got pissed because he helped out with the money in the Washington recounts. I don't think Kerry will let them stop him from doing anything I think he will only approach it in a different way.

Just as he did the BCCI investigations. If you remember he was being pressured from the republicans, president George H.W. Bush and finally the other democrats including the chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, Democratic Sen. Claiborne Pell started pressuring Kerry to stop his investigation. Kerry never did he just approached it another way where they didn't know what he was doing. He got with New York Distract Attorney Robert Morgenthau who launched a criminal investigation into BCCI. By 1991 Kerry and Morgenthau worked paid off by BCCI being shut down in seven countries and indictments served for grand larceny, bribery, and money laundering.

I guess my whole point here is regardless of what these people like, think about Kerry, or try to stop Kerry it won't do them any good. I can't say what Kerry is doing or not doing but from what I know about Kerry he will not just forget about what is going on here. He will not let the voter fraud issue go untouched and just say forget about it. That is not the kind of man John Kerry is. He will just approach the issue in another way as he did during his battle with BCCI. During that battle, Kerry revealed himself to be a man of integrity who refused to back down under pressure of the special interests that could have ruined his political career. He didn't let them stop him from doing what was right for America and the American people.

I guess time will tell which Democratic leaders will have the gonands to stand up and fight the republicans and stop them from destroying social security, destroying health care, and fighting to fix a voting process unacceptable in this country. But if the 388 billion pork barrel spending bill that was just passed is an example well it won't be to damn many. And I bet some of those running there mouth about Kerry are the ones that voted yes for that bill. (Am I right?)


I think there is more to come from Kerry. We will have to wait and see.

[The Flaming Red Head]

14. They all had money, food and jobs, huh. Nobody getting sent to Iraq.

I know there was Fraud! I won't ever back down.

Oh well.

When you've got nothing, you've got nothing to loose.

[proudbluestater]

18. I wish you were joking! What is WRONG with people?

We are living in fascism. Do they realize this? Why do they have an ounce of hope that the next election will be fair when the last two or three have not been?

If that's the general attitude of the party at large, then it's just about over for the party. They are not dealing in reality.

I have to admit, like a lot of people, I was skeptical at first with the initial reports of election fraud, but I have been convinced.

It is unbelievable to me that people in our own party are ready to "move on." There is simply nothing to move on to! No fair elections on the horizons if we don't investigate what has gone on the past three and make sure everybody at least gets a chance to vote fairly!

I don't blame you for being disheartened.

[Nordic]

19. you know what? FUCK THEM TO HELL

They can go down with the ship that is the sinking Democratic Party.

Hey folks, you hit a goddamn iceberg four years ago, put down the violins and look for the fucking life rafts.

Goddamn that really pisses me off, and is all the more reason I am DONE with this idiotic loser party unless Howard Dean takes it over.

[sundancekid]

20. these "party" people take "disconnect" to a whole new (depressing) level

[Bouncy Ball]

21. Yuck, where the HELL was that Christmas party?

Dems or not, I'd be sorely tempted to walk out of a shitty party like that. Angry progressives have "nowhere to go" so let's just laugh at them? Good thing they don't speak for the whole Dem party or I would walk out of the party.

[zann725]

22. I had that same problem w/ fellow Kerry volunteers even prior to election

I was constantly the 'cheerleader'...seeing the brighter side of polls, and updating people on the strong points of Kerry latest speech, etc. It's the same now...I've run into several people I volunteered with (Team Captains actually), and they all seem unaware of most of the Ohio updates, and seem focused as well on what 'we' did wrong; and as you say, on 2008. And I run into friends and people all around who know I was/am a Kerry supporter, and they are also unaware, and somewhat apathetic of Ohio, recount, etc.

However I run into at least one person a day who is not up to date on Ohio, etc....but when the conversatin comes up, they become extremely animated, and want details, and people to contact, and places to go to find more info. It's like they've been deprived of their air to breath. And while they 'wear me out'...constantly wanting me to give them updates, and to prove to them "we're winning"...it still motivates me...and I think our numbers are growing.

I remember Watergate (some of it), and it did take a while to "catch fire." And the media didn't want to cover it much at first, and most everyone knew little about it until it broke open wide. It'll be the same here. And actually it's about to. We're through the toughest part now. There's been a lot happening the last week or two. And more MSM coverage, and even more print media coverage. The march tomorrow, and hearing and court filing on Monday, plus the beginning of recount will really make it start to snowball.

Have faith! We've got a lot of good people here at D.U. that still 'believe.' We're so lucky to have the "internets" and each other in times like these.
:kick: :bounce:

[angrydemocrat]

25. Well Keep Up The Good Work

When I have run into a few people like that to. And like you try to tell them about everthing that is going on and where they can go find all the imformation some are interested and listen others don't care. But all you can do is try. I don't think Kerry has just said forget about it either. That is not Kerry.

[mattclearing]

23. They are crazy losers. Remember Bill Clinton's words...

...on the definition of insanity?

[Cherie59]

26. Very sad

Our democracy is at stake and once again
people (some even in our own party) will not
demand integrity in the 2004 election and in
our system of voting.It is a shame and frankly
sickening.It's like we on the DU are the only
ones wanting truth in our government and the
media and public turn a blind eye and shrug it
off as nonsense.
It reminds me of the story, "The Emperor Has No Clothes"
I want to scream from a mountain top, "HELLO AMERICA
YOUR PRESIDENT IS A CORRUPT, SHAMELESS, LYING CREEP WHO
DOES NOT WANT YOU TO THINK FOR YOURSELF AND IS TAKING
YOUR CIVIL LIBERTIES FROM YOU BIT BY BIT EVERY SINGLE
DAY!"